FATFlyer
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Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:08 am

Allegiant will begin flights between GSP and LAS on Aug 23.

Dep GSP on Friday and Monday.
Dep LAS on Thursdays and Sundays.

http://www.allegiantair.com/aaNews20070627a.php
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stlgph
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:36 am

So, if Las Vegas - Toledo wouldn't work because of the distance, then .........
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FATFlyer
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:08 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 1):
So, if Las Vegas - Toledo wouldn't work because of the distance, then .........

I think it was more distance vs. fare they could get.

Fares to LAS from GSP are currently $100 more than they are out of TOL. That gives Allegiant a better fare out of GSP even after they discount current prices on other airlines.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
ShannoninAMA
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:14 am

Interesting.....looks like they will encounter some considerable competition in GSP  scratchchin 



Shannon
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stlgph
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 2):

they were charging $69 from Toledo and now $89 from Greenville.

not that much of a difference really.
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wedgetail737
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:20 am

AA was able to fly LAX-RDU with MD-80's. I wonder if G4 recently received some 5-tankers.
 
flyinryan99
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:22 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 4):
they were charging $69 from Toledo and now $89 from Greenville.

What are the fares out of DTW though?

I honestly don't think TOL will ever see anything more then bare minimum service from Allegiant. I would go into it, but this is about GSP-LAS. Good for them  Smile They seem to be doing well in the southern cities.
 
stlgph
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:26 am

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 6):
What are the fares out of DTW though?

??????????????????
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FATFlyer
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:49 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 4):
and now $89 from Greenville.

That is just for the next few weeks;

Quote:
Allegiant's $89* one-way introductory fare is limited, must be purchased by July 21, 2007

then we will see where it goes up from there. Also a low fare doesn't mean the fare mix includes more than a small percentage of seats at that price.

[Edited 2007-06-27 19:51:39]
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
N1120A
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 4):

they were charging $69 from Toledo and now $89 from Greenville.

That $20 difference would seem to make a major difference.
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stlgph
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
That $20 difference would seem to make a major difference.

that was also 2005 prices.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 8):
Quoting STLGph (Reply 4):
and now $89 from Greenville.

That is just for the next few weeks;

Quote:
Allegiant's $89* one-way introductory fare is limited, must be purchased by July 21, 2007

then we will see where it goes up from there. Also a low fare doesn't mean the fare mix includes more than a small percentage of seats at that price.

and the same couldnt have been done with the Toledo seats?
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Tornado82
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:06 am

Their Mad dogs have that kind of range? I thought TOL-LAS couldn't work because of range in the winter, not yields?
 
stlgph
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:17 am

Roughly 1800 miles...
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Tornado82
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:28 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 12):
Roughly 1800 miles...

Add another few hundred more effective flight miles, when you count in the winter winds.
 
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YNGguins
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:32 am

In Youngstown (YNG) we have had 93%+ loads from January-May this year; but the reason we have not received any additional services with Allegiant is because of low yields. We don't advertise too heavily either, unlike RFD and other succesful G4 cities. Perhaps it was the lower yields which ended the TOL flights and the solid yields at GSP, which gave them this great opportunity.

I don't think distance is as big as everyone on here portrays. I have seen Allegiant charters from Milwaukee fly all the way down into Puerto Rico; which I'm pretty darn sure is further than TOL/YNG-LAS or GSP-LAS.

I wish those down in the GSP region the best of luck and I urge them to use Allegiant! They are a great carrier!
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Tornado82
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:40 am

Quoting YNGguins (Reply 14):
I don't think distance is as big as everyone on here portrays. I have seen Allegiant charters from Milwaukee fly all the way down into Puerto Rico;

Typically less headwinds on that route.
 
flyinryan99
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:54 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 7):
??????????????????



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 11):

The original reason given by the airline was it was uneconomical to fly it at that range with fuel at $70 per barrel...I was later told it was due to the fare pressure out of DTW to keep more seats at the cheaper fares. That is why you see Allegiant only flying TOL-SFB 3x weekly and TOL-PIE 2x weekly. So IMHO, TOL will never see anything big by Allegiant because of fare pressures from DTW.
 
FATFlyer
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:56 am

In terms of the impact of headwinds I will have to let others be the experts on aircraft performance.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 10):
and the same couldnt have been done with the Toledo seats?

They could but it depends upon the TOL market. Would they support a higher fare?

Also what would nearby competition do.

Looking at an Aug weekend getaway Fri/Sun the cheapest RT fare I see on TOL-LAS is $299. On GSP-LAS its $399.

If Allegiant was to charge say $100ow/$200 RT as its lowest out of TOL as its lowest fare I would think the competition would lower their fares some what, say to $250. Would a $50 differential be enough to get people to go non-stop AND give up mile earning on other airlines?

And TOL is only an hour or so drive from low LAS fares at Detroit, Spirit is what only $99 or 109 ow on DTW-LAS.

GSP could go up on Allegiant to say $109 or $119 ow, $238 RT. Would the competition cut more than $100 from their fares? It seems excessive to think that.

And GSP is a several hour drive to airports with lower fare service, even then AirTran's lowest is about $350 to LAS for a weekend. Lots of room for Allegiant to play with fares.
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stlgph
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:20 am

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 16):
The original reason given by the airline was it was uneconomical to fly it at that range with fuel at $70 per barrel...I was later told it was due to the fare pressure out of DTW to keep more seats at the cheaper fares. That is why you see Allegiant only flying TOL-SFB 3x weekly and TOL-PIE 2x weekly. So IMHO, TOL will never see anything big by Allegiant because of fare pressures from DTW.



Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 17):

If that was the case they wouldn't be serving Lincoln, Belleville, Rockford, Bellingham, etc.


All in all, someone needs to make up their mind and give a definite answer as to why Toledo failed because of yields vs. distance and compare 2005 prices to 2007 prices of fuel for Greenville to Las Vegas and comparative distance.
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:22 am

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 5):
AA was able to fly LAX-RDU with MD-80's.

When? AA hasn't flown RDU-LAX ever as far as I can tell.. the fartherest west they flew was DFW.
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:30 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 19):

When? AA hasn't flown RDU-LAX ever as far as I can tell.. the fartherest west they flew was DFW.

They didn't, though they did fly BNA-LAX with S80s before the arrival of the 738s. IIRC, the route had some runway performance issues and made a lot of pit stops in the summer.

Today, AA does fly ORD-SFO on S80s, which is about the same distance as GSP-LAS (though ORD doesn't get as hot as S.C.).
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FATFlyer
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:49 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 18):
If that was the case they wouldn't be serving Lincoln, Belleville, Rockford, Bellingham, etc.

OK lets check some of them. I looked at a weekend in late Aug (8/17-19), no reason, and it isn't the highest fare weekend for Allegiant. Fares probably run higher when it isn't the heat of summer.

The fare pressure at the other markets is much different than what is going on at DTW. Checking fares for that same weekend out of DTW, DL has a $211 connection and NK is $252 non-stop. Comparable to SEA-LAS and OMA-LAS but much further in distance.

Lincoln (about 1050 miles to LAS), Allegiant is $178RT, the lowest fare on anyone else is $408 RT. Out of OMA the lowest on anyone is $231 for the same weekend.

Belleville (1400 miles) - Allegiant is $318 RT for that weekend. At STL the lowest appears to be $296 for a connection, $318 non-stop.

Bellingham (950 miles) - Allegiant is getting $178, other airlines are charging $351 RT for a connection. At SEA it is $255 and at YVR is $334.

Yes, BLI and LNK are at $89 ow/$178 RT on Allegiant but a lot closer than GSP or TOL to LAS.

I expect GSP-LAS will rise quickly given the fares available in the Southeast right now.
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wedgetail737
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:20 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 19):
When? AA hasn't flown RDU-LAX ever as far as I can tell.. the fartherest west they flew was DFW.

Think way back when AA had hubs at both BNA and RDU. It was prior to AA's 738's.
 
flyinryan99
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:42 pm

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 21):

I'm glad you did the work and I didn't have to Big grin

The problem with TOL is DTW. There is nothing else wrong with TOL other than DTW. DTW has every LFC (except jetBlue) running fares to LAS and the connections are less then the n/s flights. I was tentatively looking at flying TOL-LAS leaving June 23 coming back Jul 3 (a few months ago) and it was only $250 r/t. Allegiant isn't ever going to match that with 150 seats. The nonstop flights DTW-LAS look like this:

4x NW
4x NK
2x US

I wonder why they don't fly TOL-LAS.....
 
stlgph
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:37 pm

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 21):



Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 23):

Yes, and with your logic you are saying that a city the size of Toledo, population over 300,000, can't support two weekly flights to Las Vegas because the airport an hour north offers the same fares.

Yet, Rapid City can. At a population of 110,000-ish

Duluth can. At a population of 180,000-ish

MIssoula at 150,000 can do four a week.

Redmond at 23,500 can do two a week.
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FATFlyer
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:55 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 24):
Yes, and with your logic you are saying that a city the size of Toledo, population over 300,000, can't support two weekly flights to Las Vegas because the airport an hour north offers the same fares.

Not because the other airport OFFERS the same fares, but because those fares are already LOW due to the competition. And they are particularly low given the distance. Heck DTW-LAS on DL is only $30 more than Allegiant's BLI-LAS, which is 800 miles closer.

Again look at DTW-LAS. Its 1750 miles. The current fares are running between $200 and $250. And DTW is close enough to impact TOL.

Compare that to RFD-LAS. Allegiant is getting in the neighborhood of $300 for a 300 mile shorter flight on the weekend I looked at before.

Its the low fares at DTW limiting the ability to raise fares or even manage the fares to push the revenue mix higher.

If you are a carrier do you look to match already existing low fares or do you look for a route where you can control the fare and/or get a higher fare than at another city.

Lots of other cities and routes where they can get better revenue from the aircraft.
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uncgso
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:02 pm

Wonder if the M80's could reach GSO from LAS then?
 
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:11 pm

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 22):
Think way back when AA had hubs at both BNA and RDU. It was prior to AA's 738's.

AA never had flights to LAX from RDU. It was planned, not executed. Ever. The only LAX flights were on Delta and I think Midway had it, but can't be sure.

Quoting UncGSO (Reply 26):
Wonder if the M80's could reach GSO from LAS then?

I do believe it can be done.. Allegiant has flown ILM-RDU-LAS.. but there may have been a fuel stop.. can't really be sure.
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stlgph
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:32 pm

It's nice you're trying and all, but are you even buying this Toledo/Detroit nonsense you're spewing? There is no way that airfares out of Detroit are to blame for this. By your logic with other cities that you've cherry picked, Allegiant's flights should be full to the gills and the other carriers should be out of business.

And if this also the case, following your daydream here, they shouldn't be adding Springfield IL, Champaign IL, etc.


So, now, back to the original assertion that we've gotten no where on.

If Toledo failed because of the distance factor, what's up with them going after Knoxville and Greenville - Spartanburg

Bueller?
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g4resagent
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:50 pm

From the press release:

“Unfortunately, due to escalating fuel costs and aggressive competitive conditions, we will end our Las Vegas service,” Maurice J. Gallagher, Allegiant Air president and CEO, said.
 
flyinryan99
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:45 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 28):
It's nice you're trying and all, but are you even buying this Toledo/Detroit nonsense you're spewing? There is no way that airfares out of Detroit are to blame for this. By your logic with other cities that you've cherry picked, Allegiant's flights should be full to the gills and the other carriers should be out of business.

How do you not believe that DTW impacts TOL like no other markets in the US? Have you lived in Toledo? Do you know the mentality of Toledoans? If you haven't then you wouldn't know and if you did, you would've lived under a rock then. Toledoans love their nonstops and where do you get nonstops from? DTW. (In fact, one of my coworkers today has to fly out to IAD and picked DTW-IAD instead of TOL-XXX-IAD because they are nonstops. Any travel my boss does, is out of DTW so he can avoid the connection.) It is evident by the *full* flights to high origin/destination cities that Toledoans love nostop flights. TOL-LAS has historically ran 70%+ loads and when Allegiant was running it, March and April it was over 80%. The problem was, the yield was too low to cover the 15% profit margin they require for a route. Why was they yield too low? Because the fares at DTW were at that rate too, but they had many more seats at that rate that could pull away from the TOL-LAS flights. In order to keep those passengers Allegiant had to keep a higher inventory of the lower fares reducing the revenue. This is the same reason why TOL-SFB/PIE are not increased in frequency even with 90% loadfactors. Allegiant is/was worried about fare pressure from DTW to those two markets, particularly Southwest. If Southwest wouldn't have entered the DTW-MCO market, I'm sure we'd see 5x weekly not 3x weekly on crappy days. I also think TOL may not get FLL service because of the abundance of flights out of DTW.

The leakage rate of Toledo/Northwest Ohio passengers is astronomical at 80% - 90% right now. Due to mainly 1 thing - Nonstop Flights. 4 out of 7 destinations actually have o/d potential and is it a shocker they are the highest load factor cities? Nope. You may ask why airlines don't fly out of TOL then instead even though they know they could fill them. The answer is because the airlines are happy to serve the Toledo market through DTW. FlyCMH can back me up on this but that is the sole reason why United has never returned to TOL. Sorry man...but you're wrong when you say DTW fares have no effect on the Toledo market.
 
delta767
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:26 am

Quoting UncGSO (Reply 26):

According to airport officials who have spoken with Allegiant, GSO service is doing really well. I wonder if LAS and FLL are on the horizon!! G4 seems to make announcements like this individually instead of announcing service to multiple cities like DL or other major carriers.

Does anyone know if Allegiant is even considering ramping up service at GSO?
 
FATFlyer
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:12 am

OK, again it is the fares they can get at TOL. On other, shorter routes Allegiant can get the same or more as what is charged out of DTW for LAS meaning they can operate a flight with lower cost but get higher revenue.

Lets look at the 2 you just mentioned, both are a shorter distance than TOL by about 300 or 400 miles

Quoting STLGph (Reply 28):
And if this also the case, following your daydream here, they shouldn't be adding Springfield IL

SPI-LAS 1410 miles. Allegiant for the weekend of 8/17 is currently showing $268. Again above the DTW fares for that weekend.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 28):
Champaign IL, etc

CMI-LAS 1485 miles. Allegiant for the weekend of 8/17 shows $298.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 28):
If Toledo failed because of the distance factor,

You are focused on just distance, I believe it is distance of the flight vs. the fare they can charge in the market. I can't comment on things like distance, headwinds, etc since that is something I'm not versed in.

If TOL passengers would pay more than what is charged at DTW to get convenience then it might be considered. But the passengers are apparently voting their pocketbooks and frequent flier accounts, not paying extra for local airport convenience.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 28):
Bueller?

Hey! Ferris was a smart kid, just lazy.  Wink
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
Womack17
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:28 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 27):
AA never had flights to LAX from RDU. It was planned, not executed. Ever. The only LAX flights were on Delta and I think Midway had it, but can't be sure.

JI (Midway) did RDU-LAX-LAS-RDU on one of their initial 73G's. I flew it many times. Left RDU about 1830 and then came back from LAS as a red-eye! Sadly, the flight did not live up to expectations and JI terminated the flight in order to use the aircraft on one of their more profitable routes:

BDL-RDU-MCO-RDU-BDL
BOS-RDU-FLL-RDU-FLL
LGA-RDU-MSY-RDU-LGA

They also flew PBI-PHL-RDU-PBI-RDU-PHL-RDU-PBI-RDU-PHL-PBI on a 73G as part of the summer schedule.

The West Palm-Philly early morning nonstop and late night Philly-West Palm n/s were one of the very FEW routings that did not make an interim stop in RDU.

Another one that comes to mind was one of the BE1's that flew RDU-CAE-ATL-CAE-RDU.

There are others that I am more fuzzy about as these flights were almost 8 years ago.

-Womack17
Oh how I miss Midway Airlines. A class act right to then end.
 
stlgph
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:51 pm

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 30):



Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 32):

You two are lost in your own dribble. So let's thank G4resagent for summing it quickly and quietly in reply 29.
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FATFlyer
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RE: Allegiant Announces GSP-LAS

Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:36 pm

Quoting Stlgph (Reply 34):
You two are lost in your own dribble.

LOL, my own dribble? I think way back in my first post in reply # 2, I said

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 2):
I think it was more distance vs. fare they could get.

Basically I said that the fares they could get were too low given the cost to fly a route of that distance. I thought 11 words were a pretty succinct way to say it.  Wink

The quote in # 29 you refer to gives 2 reasons. Everyone will agree that the first one, fuel cost, did increase.

But the "aggressive competitive conditions" that Maurice Gallagher mentioned is almost certainly DTW's fares. Isn't that the part you said you doubted in reply # 7, # 24 and # 28? Or do you think there is some other competitive situation he meant involving TOL?
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain