jimyvr
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Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:19 am

http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articl...27_N25305867&type=comktNews&rpc=44

Qatar Airways still won't say anything about the 787 orders, despite the speculation now aims at Qatar since US Airways ordered A350XWB last week.
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DAYflyer
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:23 am

As i have said many times before, I do not see Qatar ordering a 787 ever.
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Stitch
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:35 am

They played coy on their 777 order, so...
 
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Qatara340
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:50 am

I remember roughly 2 years ago, we had a chat on A.net about QR's rumoured 777 ordered. Many of the fellow forumers were quick to deny it, claiming Qatar wont ever "cheat" on its Airbus relationship....

I smell the same situation here; I think QR will order some 787's in the Dubai Airshow... or maybe later.
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clickhappy
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:52 am

"I think you have to wait," Qatar Airways CEO Akbar al-Baker said at a media conference in New York on Wednesday, when asked if the airline had ordered 787 planes.

Some odd quotes from al-Baker lately.
 
LH506
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:56 am

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
"I think you have to wait," Qatar Airways CEO Akbar al-Baker said at a media conference in New York on Wednesday, when asked if the airline had ordered 787 planes.

Some odd quotes from al-Baker lately.

For me this reads like, wait until 7.8.07 then we will announce it during the roll out.
NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 788 300B2 300B4 345 359 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40 Q1/2/3 M87
 
Lumberton
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:30 am

Quoting LH506 (Reply 5):
For me this reads like, wait until 7.8.07 then we will announce it during the roll out.

 checkmark  It certainly doesn't sound like a denial.
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flyabr
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:46 am

what is it with the bizarre relationship that quatar has with boeing? the wierd 777 order last year...and now these 787s...why so secretive?
 
davescj
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:53 am

But is QR not the launch customer for the A350? Why would they have a plane with such similar layout?
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khobar
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 3):
I smell the same situation here; I think QR will order some 787's in the Dubai Airshow... or maybe later.

Right along with another 80 A350XWB's, a half-dozen A380's, and, what, 100 or so A319-A321's.

Unlikely, of course, but you just never know.  Wink

(not making any point, not making any comment, not knocking anyone in the least. I can just imagine the look on some faces, that's all).
 
WestWing
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:13 am

I've never heard the Boeing 777 being called a minijumbo!  rotfl .
I personally believe that the story as reported by the SeattlePI does have some weight to it and that there should have been no need for Mr Al-Baker to give an evasive answer if QR had not ordered the 787s. But I guess time will tell.
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justloveplanes
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:25 am

He may be ordering the 788, which would make some sense. The 80 XWB is still not firm from what I am reading, despite being a launch customer. It may be possible that Qatar has a number of 80 in mind for firm frames PLUS options. In this case the latter options are for 3510's to replace the 777's he will be receiving shortly or for expansion at a significantly later date.

Still agressive, but not so crazy sounding.
 
aminobwana
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:41 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 9):
Right along with another 80 A350XWB's, a half-dozen A380's, and, what, 100 or so A319-A321's.

Unlikely, of course, but you just never know.

(not making any point, not making any comment, not knocking anyone in the least. I can just imagine the look on some faces, that's all).

Pls. look at the following possible scenario:

You are IMO assuredly right that QATAR do not need 80 aircrafts of the A350/B787 category, much less as firm orders. As commented in another Topic, such a quantity IMHO is only in discussion because Qatar and QR want to appear as a privileged customer, and Qatar is also interested to invest in EADS at also privileged condition.

But independently of how many total such aircraft the really need to order, to rely solely at the still largely undefined A350 both technically (and even if the specs were affirmed, being the delivery so far away) - and timely is a unacceptable risk for any well managed commercial airline. Especially if an alternative is available, as it is, this would be plainly negligent.

Therefore, if they order in the next months (or already have as UFOs) approx. 30 B787 frames and a suitable No. of options (or purchase rights), in the case the A350 order can be finally affirmed when the specs are released and also assuming they want to operate a mixed fleet, they would reduce the quantity to their real additional needs in excess of the B787.
In the opposite case, they could cover their additional needs out of the B787 options or purchase rights.

Comments ??
regards

aminobwana
 
LH506
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:21 am

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
He may be ordering the 788, which would make some sense. The 80 XWB is still not firm from what I am reading, despite being a launch customer. It may be possible that Qatar has a number of 80 in mind for firm frames PLUS options. In this case the latter options are for 3510's to replace the 777's he will be receiving shortly or for expansion at a significantly later date.

From what I understood during Paris they signed firm (no MoU, no LOI) 20 358s, 40 359s and 20 351s. If you add 30 788s for the lower capacity end and 5 380s, assuming that all other widebodys are gone by then, QR will operate 115 w/b. + ??n/b which they are also looking at, if I remember correctly. An impressive fleet.
NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 788 300B2 300B4 345 359 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40 Q1/2/3 M87
 
7cubed
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:43 am

Quoting WestWing (Reply 10):
I've never heard the Boeing 777 being called a minijumbo! .

I was thinking the same thing...you beat me to it.
 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
joe
 
aminobwana
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:44 am

Quoting LH506 (Reply 13):
From what I understood during Paris they signed firm (no MoU, no LOI) 20 358s, 40 359s and 20 351s

How do we know this, when the same customer declares yesterday that he does not have the needed info and alternatives of the especifications and previously had also stated the the Ageement allowed them to walk if the specs released later are not satisfactory (whatever this means!) ??

saludos
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LH506
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 15):
How do we know this, when the same customer declares yesterday that he does not have the needed info and alternatives of the especifications and previously had also stated the the Ageement allowed them to walk if the specs released later are not satisfactory (whatever this means!) ??

I guess we will see it when Airbus shows it on their order book (June?). If they book it as an order, then the contract must be set up in way, that the indenpendant audit firm which signs of on EADSs books is convinced that it is an order according to IFRS (or whatever they are using). Which does not mean that a customer cannot simply cancel an order in 1,2,3.. years if they decide to do so for whatever reason, paying or not paying penalties. But if it shows up on the order book, my assumption would be that QR wants to buy 80 350s and maybe 30 788s.
NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 788 300B2 300B4 345 359 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40 Q1/2/3 M87
 
EA772LR
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:50 am

The 788's would be a nice replacement size-wise for the A332's. Why so much capacity in the Middle East. I am aware of the central location (no pun intended), but being that that area of the world is so unstable right now, would it be better to play it conservative right now?? It just seems weird that between QR, EK, EY, that's a HELLUVA lot of capacity.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
Confuscius
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:58 am

"I think you have to wait," Qatar Airways CEO Akbar al-Baker said at a media conference in New York on Wednesday, when asked if the airline had ordered 787 planes.

It was neither confirmed, nor denied...so it must be true.  Wink
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aminobwana
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:26 am

Quoting LH506 (Reply 16):
I guess we will see it when Airbus shows it on their order book (June?).

Well, I am not sure. I do not know if you are aware that AB had all the time in their order book all the old A350, independently if they were exchanged or not for an A350XWB, as well as the A340-600 which order EK cancelled.
Of course, they aduce formalist reasons.

Generally I would say, it is something new: An conditioned agreement, more than an MOU, less than a Firm order

aminobwana
 
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PM
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:00 am

Quoting Davescj (Reply 8):
But is QR not the launch customer for the A350? Why would they have a plane with such similar layout?

Because they could get it sooner (especially if they've already ordered 30). Because the -8 is smaller than any of the A350s and may be better for certain routes. To hedge their bets.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 19):
An conditioned agreement, more than an MOU, less than a Firm order

Which is actually very common. Loads of 'firm' orders include conditions and walk-away clauses. Remember SQ's firm order for MD11s which they then walked away from? You make it sound like there is an unprecedented degree of hesitancy about QR's firm order for 80 A350s. It's actually the kind of contract that's commonplace in the industry.
 
manni
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:32 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 19):
Well, I am not sure. I do not know if you are aware that AB had all the time in their order book all the old A350, independently if they were exchanged or not for an A350XWB,

It seems that you are not aware that QR never placed a firm order for a previous version of the A350 and that Airbus never took a QR A350 order up in their orderbooks before.

Quoting Khobar (Reply 9):
and, what, 100 or so A319-A321's.

Not even close to that. More like a dozen.
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azhobo
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:41 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 1):
As i have said many times before, I do not see Qatar ordering a 787 ever.

The specs were too detailed for them to consider ordering them.

HOBO  Smile
 
azhobo
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:48 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 4):
Some odd quotes from al-Baker lately.



Quoting LH506 (Reply 5):
For me this reads like, wait until 7.8.07 then we will announce it during the roll out.



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 6):
It certainly doesn't sound like a denial.

Agree, if they are not Qatars why not just say it. And add we will not be buynig 787 cause we love and trust in airbus products.

Quoting Davescj (Reply 8):
But is QR not the launch customer for the A350? Why would they have a plane with such similar layout?

That is the easiest to assume an answer: Its called insurance. In case they need to walk away from the A350 deal, they wont have to go to the back of the Boeing line, and pay a much higher premium for a deal at that time. And if A succeeds and Q is happy, they can convert or sell them on the open market for a pretty penny. They also have money to burn if that is not too obvious.

HOBO
 
aminobwana
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:03 am

Quoting PM (Reply 20):
Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 19):
An conditioned agreement, more than an MOU, less than a Firm order

Which is actually very common. Loads of 'firm' orders include conditions and walk-away clauses. Remember SQ's firm order for MD11s which they then walked away from? You make it sound like there is an unprecedented degree of hesitancy about QR's firm order for 80 A350s. It's actually the kind of contract that's commonplace in the industry.

Yes: but this is clearly a problem of degree.. If the order is for a clealy defined aircraft with clear specs, there are chances that the manufacturer is not able to comply with these and the customer walks. A example in other industries is that the specs include a basic component of a certain type and manufacturer, but in the meantime this manufacturer get bankrupt and the end-customer is not able to use the substitute part. A more common cause is a huge not compliance with the delivery time.
But,the risk that such happens is very low

But in the case of the A350, as QR (and other) say, there is no clear spec and again if we believe Al-Bakr, (""With this information unavailable, Qatar Airways has had to define in detail what its expects from the A350 XWB by way of specification and performance and then make this a contractual obligation," and "This part of the airline's purchase agreement is larger than the document that currently serves as Airbus's interim specification")
these specs and performance guarantees originated from a QR wish list

Here, the risk is exponentially larger. And this seems to me is the unprecedented issue !!

Quoting Manni (Reply 21):
Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 19):
Well, I am not sure. I do not know if you are aware that AB had all the time in their order book all the old A350, independently if they were exchanged or not for an A350XWB,

It seems that you are not aware that QR never placed a firm order for a previous version of the A350 and that Airbus never took a QR A350 order up in their orderbooks before.

Manni: I know this. And you conveniently ignore that when I mentioned "all the old A350" I did not mention QR, but as written referred at the orders they received and booked before this model was discontinued, independent of the Qatar issue. And of course, you do not quote nor refer to the second part of my statement, i.e. "as well as the A340-600 which order EK cancelled. Of course, they aduce formalist reasons." which would be example enough for what I am addressing!

aminobwana
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:46 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 1):
As i have said many times before, I do not see Qatar ordering a 787 ever.

"Ever" is a very long time. . .

Quoting FlyABR (Reply 7):
what is it with the bizarre relationship that quatar has with boeing? the wierd 777 order last year...and now these 787s...why so secretive?

 crazy  and what's more, the story behind the story is usually even more bizarre. . .



Regards,

Hamlet69  profile 
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Devilfish
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:02 am

Quoting 7cubed (Reply 14):
Quoting WestWing (Reply 10):
I've never heard the Boeing 777 being called a minijumbo! .

I was thinking the same thing...you beat me to it.
rotfl rotfl rotfl

If somebody did, it would quickly establish itself as one of the most classic oxymorons to have come from A.net! Big grin
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
manni
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:21 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 24):
I know this. And you conveniently ignore that when I mentioned "all the old A350" I did not mention QR,

I haven't ignored anything. I looked at the topic title and your reply. Perhaps you should have mentioned that you're aware that the QR order never appeared on Airbus' books. By posting what you posted in this topic it implies that you're talking about the QR order.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 24):
independent of the Qatar issue.

Then why post it here? If it's independent of the QR issue, you're going off topic.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 24):
And of course, you do not quote nor refer to the second part of my statement

I have no obligation to refer to any of your statements, nor do I feel honored by your request. But if you insist...

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 24):
And of course, you do not quote nor refer to the second part of my statement, i.e. "as well as the A340-600 which order EK cancelled.

Nevermind you're off topic again. If the EK orders are still on the books, EK did not cancel them or didn't yet come to an agreement over the cancellation penalty they owe Airbus. This might happen when they firm up their additional A380s or EK might want to convert these outstanding A346 orders to a part of a potential A350XWB order. But for now the deposits are likely still in Airbus' hands and thus the order is not cancelled yet.
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gunsontheroof
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:28 am

Quoting Davescj (Reply 8):
But is QR not the launch customer for the A350? Why would they have a plane with such similar layout?

SQ and SU have ordered both...

Quoting WestWing (Reply 10):
I've never heard the Boeing 777 being called a minijumbo!

I was wondering what the hell was up with that as well. Adding "mini" kind of negates any imagery conjured up by "jumbo"
 
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PM
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:57 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 28):
Adding "mini" kind of negates any imagery conjured up by "jumbo"

I'm sure you know that Crossair (much lamented) called their BAe146s and RJ86/100s "Jumbolinos". It fitted them. Fat, stubby and, with four engines, thinking it's a 747 or something!
 
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PM
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:58 am

Quoting PM (Reply 29):
RJ86/100s

Wow - typo alert!

(What's happened to the [edit] function?  Sad )
 
Eureka
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:15 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 1):
As i have said many times before, I do not see Qatar ordering a 787 ever.

Prepare to be wrong.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 1):
As i have said many times before, I do not see Qatar ordering a 787 ever.

I guarantee you will find that you're wrong now and forever on this prediction.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:29 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 27):

Nevermind you're off topic again. If the EK orders are still on the books, EK did not cancel them or didn't yet come to an agreement over the cancellation penalty they owe Airbus. This might happen when they firm up their additional A380s or EK might want to convert these outstanding A346 orders to a part of a potential A350XWB order. But for now the deposits are likely still in Airbus' hands and thus the order is not cancelled yet.

....sorry to burst your bubble, but it has been cancelled...

" Emirates has cancelled an order for 10 A340-600s, considered as obsolete. In April the airline had already declared that it would delay the order in expectation for a version that would use less kerosene."*

flyaway.com

"Dubai: Emirates yesterday confirmed it has cancelled orders and options for 20 Airbus A340-600 high gross weight aircraft, with a combined value to the tune of Dh14.68 billion ($4 billion) at list price."**

** dubainewsonline

""Emirates confirms it will not be taking delivery of its order and option for 20 Airbus A340-600 aircraft," an Emirates representative said......The Wall Street Journal had reported that Emirates Executive Vice Chairman Maurice Flanagan said the carrier would instead order 777 models from Boeing Co."***

*** iht.com
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manni
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:20 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 32):

....sorry to burst your bubble, but it has been cancelled...

 Yeah sure

If the order is still on Airbus' books then it's technically not cancelled, despite reports saying the contrary. Dont worry, I'm well aware that EK will not take delivery of these aircraft. What I'm arguing against is the constant bickering and false accusations made in regards to Airbus orderbook. If the EK order is still on Airbus orderbook there will be a very good reason for it. It seems that EK is not prepared to take the penalty and preffers to wait to convert this order in an order for a different aircraft type. Making the orderbook rosier then it in reality is is CERTAINLY NOT the reason, as has been insinuated on many occasions.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...argain-offer-made-to-emirates.html

Clark recently visited Toulouse for a briefing on the A350 XWB, and will be in Seattle in May for a 787 update. He says that while the A350 "has the makings of a fine machine" he is disappointed that it is "so much later than the 787". He says that any bridging deal from Airbus would be tied to a future A350 deal, rather than the ongoing renegotiation of Emirates' cancelled A340-600 order and compensation agreement for A380 delays.
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aminobwana
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:28 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 27):
I haven't ignored anything. I looked at the topic title and your reply

The Topic title refers to an eventual additional order of B787. We were discussing if such order makes sense if the 80 frames A350 were a firm order. LH506 suggested that if it will appear in the AB order book this will confirm it firmness. I replied that possibly not so, and mentioned as example the orders for the not reconfirmed old A350 and the cancelled EK A340-600 order . So nobody is out of topic.

Regardind the EK cancellation, referred only as an example, pls. refer to reply 32.

aminobwana
 
jacobin777
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:12 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 33):
If the order is still on Airbus' books then it's technically not cancelled, despite reports saying the contrary. Dont worry, I'm well aware that EK will not take delivery of these aircraft. What I'm arguing against is the constant bickering and false accusations made in regards to Airbus orderbook. If the EK order is still on Airbus orderbook there will be a very good reason for it. It seems that EK is not prepared to take the penalty and preffers to wait to convert this order in an order for a different aircraft type. Making the orderbook rosier then it in reality is is CERTAINLY NOT the reason, as has been insinuated on many occasions.

.....cancelled is cancelled..what is there not to understand?

..apropos, it has nothing to do with the Airbus, if Boeing did the same thing, I would call them out on it also.. yes 
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Shenzhen
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:14 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 34):
The Topic title refers to an eventual additional order of B787. We were discussing if such order makes sense if the 80 frames A350 were a firm order. LH506 suggested that if it will appear in the AB order book this will confirm it firmness. I replied that possibly not so, and mentioned as example the orders for the not reconfirmed old A350 and the cancelled EK A340-600 order . So nobody is out of topic.

Regardind the EK cancellation, referred only as an example, pls. refer to reply 32.

So if Airbus say they have a firm order for 80 airplanes AND Qatar say they have made a firm order for 80 airplanes, then we shouldn't believe that?
 
aminobwana
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:16 pm

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 36):
So if Airbus say they have a firm order for 80 airplanes AND Qatar say they have made a firm order for 80 airplanes, then we shouldn't believe that?

I am not aware that QATAR has called the order "firm", but could be the said it somewhere. But we are all aware tthey said that they are concerned regarding the lack of information regarding the specifications, and that the Agreement
at the present stage is in large part basing on a wish list elaborated by QR. And they say they could walk, not defining exactly this statement, but it seems to refer to the compliance with the specs, which in turn are as they say not enough developed. The situation regarding to the performance seems to be covered by "iron-clad" guarantees and consequent penalties. And finally, they are in contact with Boeing for the purchase of B787, the issue we are discussing here, which seems absurd if it were in excess of the already 80 A380

You will agree with me that this is a confuse situation very difficult to qualify as a firm order. In the multinational companies, French and German, I worked in or with, this certainly would not be the case, as nobody would risk this in front of the shareholder and financial authorities.

It is really not relevant how Airbus declares this orders: the situation is known by the financial market and the airlines But if they decide to register it as firm, they are incurring in a huge risk, given the volume and relevance of this deal.

Lets wait if QR issues or confirms a FIRM (!!) order for B787s, the quantity, options and purchase rights would allow to see clearer the situation. But I am not so sure that presently QR wishes such clarification !!

regards

Aminobwana
 
n1786b
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:41 pm

Quoting FlyABR (Reply 7):
what is it with the bizarre relationship that quatar has with boeing? the wierd 777 order last year...and now these 787s...why so secretive?

According to the talk at the Paris Air Show, QATAR was either paid or heavily pressured NOT to unveil their 787 order during last week's AB order bonanza at Le Bourget.

- n1786b
 
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scbriml
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:06 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 37):
I am not aware that QATAR has called the order "firm", but could be the said it somewhere.

http://www.qatarairways.com/English_...release_Jun18_07.html?lindes.g_5*2

Quote:
Le Bourget, PARIS AIR SHOW – Qatar Airways today confirmed a US$16 billion order for 80 Airbus A350s making the airline the single largest customer of the European aircraft manufacturer’s newest commercial jet. The airline has also increased its orders for the widebody Airbus A380s from two to five aircraft.
At a press conference held on the opening day of the Paris Air Show at Le Bourget today, Qatar Airways’ Chief Executive Officer Akbar Al Baker confirmed the orders in the presence of Airbus President Louis Gallois.

http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...tems/07_06_18_qatar_A350_A380.html

Quote:
Qatar Airways has signed a contract for the purchase of 80 of the all-new Airbus A350 XWB aircraft and also placed an order for a further three A380s, bringing their total order for the type to five. The agreement was signed at the 47th International Paris Air Show at Le Bourget between Akbar Al-Baker, Qatar Airways Chief Executive Officer and Louis Gallois Airbus President and CEO. This follows on an initial agreement announced in May.

You seem perfectly happy to accept that SU signed a firm order for 787s (even though it has yet to hit Boeing's order book), at the same time questioning SU's A350 commitment. Do you believe SU's A350 order is not firm as well?

I have two questions for you - How much time do you spend trawling the net looking for any news about Airbus that you can put a negative spin on? Why do you do it?


Assuming QR does have these 787s on order, they would, of course, become the third airline to order both the A350 and 787.
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Stitch
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 34):
I replied that possibly not so, and mentioned as example the orders for the not reconfirmed old A350 and the cancelled EK A340-600 order .

A firm order can be canceled. That fact, however, doesn't make the order any less firm up until the moment it is canceled.

Ask Boeing and PR, which carried a 744 order for years they knew they would never consummate. No different in my opinion then Airbus and EK. In fact, now that EK has taken more A388s, I would not be surprised if the A346 deposits were applied and when Airbus publishes the June update, we will see the A346s be deleted.

Taking your reasoning to it's illogical extreme, we could say that unless a plane has been formally delivered to a customer, it is not a firm order because it could be canceled.
 
NYC777
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:12 pm

I'm back from my unjustified ban.....

Any who, If QR is the customer of the 30 x 788 UFO, my opinion is they'll announce it between now and next Friday (July 6th).
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jacobin777
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:28 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 40):
Ask Boeing and PR, which carried a 744 order for years they knew they would never consummate.

..it depends if PR cancelled the order or just let it sit their also.....the EK order has been announced.....now if PR cancelled the order and Boeing has let it sit there for that period of time, then it is something which I cannot condone...{No}
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Stitch
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:33 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 42):
..it depends if PR cancelled the order or just let it sit their also.....the EK order has been announced.....now if PR cancelled the order and Boeing has let it sit there for that period of time, then it is something which I cannot condone... {No}

I believe EK has said they have "canceled" the order, but I also believe they had said they were looking at other Airbus options with the monies originally deposited to support that order.

To my knowledge, EK has never said they have received those monies back or that they have applied them to another Airbus product order. Nor has it been implied, much less proven, that EK has received those monies back or applied them to another Airbus product order.

If they had, and Airbus continued to show the order, that would be a clear show of "order impropriety" in my view. But until that is shown to have happened, I continue to believe that Airbus and EK hold a firm contract for a brace of A340-600s, even though Airbus will never take delivery for them and other customers will receive those planes.
 
aminobwana
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:48 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 40):
A firm order can be canceled. That fact, however, doesn't make the order any less firm up until the moment it is canceled.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 40):
Taking your reasoning to it's illogical extreme, we could say that unless a plane has been formally delivered to a customer, it is not a firm order because it could be canceled.

I have answered already this argument by my reply 24.

Taking your reasoning to the other absurd extreme:

Customer tells manufacturer: I need an aircraft with half the today's best fuel burn, X passengers, 100% composite and H2 burning clean engines within 24 months. I order herewith 100 such frames, conditioned that you demonstrate that you will comply with all that

Is this a firm order ??

As I wrote, any reasonably conservative company can declare an order as firm, as long as the probability of reversal is low or average. If not so, which is the case if the customer makes complaints as QR's, echoed by other major potential customers, it should not be declared so.
I do not know the case of Boeing you mention. If the situation was equivalent, also they IMO acted wrongly.
One wrong does not justify other, but obviously Airbus must be even more careful in view of the extraordinary high order amount and its implications

This is a problem of degree, and as a colleague stated some days ago, we will not be able to agree. As I said, airlines know which is the real situation and it is up to Airbus how they declare the order and how much risk in front of shareholders they want to incur with this declaration.

Therefore, I propose to finish this discussion here

regards

aminobwana
 
jacobin777
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:06 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 43):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 42):
..it depends if PR cancelled the order or just let it sit their also.....the EK order has been announced.....now if PR cancelled the order and Boeing has let it sit there for that period of time, then it is something which I cannot condone... {No}

I believe EK has said they have "canceled" the order, but I also believe they had said they were looking at other Airbus options with the monies originally deposited to support that order.

To my knowledge, EK has never said they have received those monies back or that they have applied them to another Airbus product order. Nor has it been implied, much less proven, that EK has received those monies back or applied them to another Airbus product order.

If they had, and Airbus continued to show the order, that would be a clear show of "order impropriety" in my view. But until that is shown to have happened, I continue to believe that Airbus and EK hold a firm contract for a brace of A340-600s, even though Airbus will never take delivery for them and other customers will receive those planes.

...I see your point Stitch...but it should still be removed from the order books...the A346 has been cancelled..it is not a plane which EK will take...it is not a plane which Airbus can say "yes, we have sold them this aircraft".....what Airbus does with the money is a different situation....

If Boeing has done the same with with PR B744 order, then it should have been removed also...

...again, this has nothing to do with Airbus "bashing" as many people here would like to believe....both manufacturer's feet should be held to the fire on this one.... gnasher 
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dank
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:10 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 45):
...I see your point Stitch...but it should still be removed from the order books...the A346 has been cancelled..it is not a plane which EK will take...it is not a plane which Airbus can say "yes, we have sold them this aircraft".....what Airbus does with the money is a different situation....

No, I think it would still be an order in the books because I don't think that EK has (or maybe they did with the recent 380 order) actually truly cancelled the contract. Because if they did so, they would have been financially penalized. They held the order until they renegotiated the deal for an alternative. In my mind, no different than the original 350 orders that are still on the books.

cheers.
 
khobar
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:29 am

Quoting N1786b (Reply 38):
According to the talk at the Paris Air Show, QATAR was either paid or heavily pressured NOT to unveil their 787 order during last week's AB order bonanza at Le Bourget.

Paid by - who? Airbus? Boeing??

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 39):
Qatar Airways has signed a contract for the purchase of 80 of the all-new Airbus A350 XWB aircraft

Scbrimi - what exactly does this mean "signed a contract for the purchase of"? As we've seen in the past, anything signed, MOU, LOI, etc. is reported to be a contract to purchase. Take a look at when the "order" for these aircraft was first announced - a.net was on fire about the "order".

It just gets a little confusing when an airline signs so many confirmation contracts. Is this the real one now? Or is this yet another firm commitment to purchase? I'm asking because I really don't know.
 
dank
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 47):
It just gets a little confusing when an airline signs so many confirmation contracts. Is this the real one now? Or is this yet another firm commitment to purchase? I'm asking because I really don't know.

Well since RR reports this for QR (http://www.rolls-royce.com/media/showPR.jsp?PR_ID=40489):

Quote:
Rolls-Royce today announced the largest-ever firm engine order for its civil aerospace business in an order with Qatar Airways worth $5.6 billion at list prices, which includes a TotalCare long term services agreement. The order, announced at the Paris Air Show, is for Trent XWB engines to power Qatar’s new fleet of 80 Airbus A350 XWB twinjets, with deliveries beginning in 2013.

vs. this for the US commitment (http://www.rolls-royce.com/media/showPR.jsp?PR_ID=40490):

Quote:
Rolls-Royce announced today at the Paris Air Show that it has agreed terms with US Airways for Trent XWB engines to power a new fleet of 22 Airbus A350 XWB twinjets. With a TotalCare long-term services agreement, the order is worth over $1.8 billion at list prices. The aircraft are due for delivery from 2014.

Sounds like a firm order for QR to me.

cheers.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Qatar Airways Quiet On 787 Orders

Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 47):
Scbrimi - what exactly does this mean "signed a contract for the purchase of"?

I felt the quote from QR's own press release was more relevant. But, I'm sure some a.netter will point out that it doesn't include the magical word "firm". However, this is something of a point of semantics for a.net and the manufacturer, as I feel the PRs from the airline rarely include the word since it doesn't mean very much in legal terms. As far as they're concerned, they signed a contract.

As was pointed out above, why would QR sign a firm contract for RR engines if their order for A350s was anything less than firm?
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