mNeo
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Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:28 pm

http://youtube.com/watch?v=R06dAgpmmbg
I really dont know what to say.

[Edited 2007-06-28 08:29:13]
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UN_B732
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:37 pm

Wow, I flew on Comair JFK-BTV that night and remember that same seizure holding us up.. on a Freedom plane. We only spent 1:30 in line though  Sad, no mechanical to hold us up, and only got into the game at 8pm.

[Edited 2007-06-28 08:45:10]
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Acey
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:24 pm

No biggie. Happened to a bunch more guys at JFK tonight.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
plateman
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:04 pm

Wow, what a terrible situation. Thanks for sharing the video.


[Edited 2007-06-28 10:07:35] Typo

[Edited 2007-06-28 10:09:33]
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gocaps16
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:44 pm

Wow, JFK is such a craphole. I'll never fly out of JFK since my last two recent flights with Delta were terrible. A 3 hour delay on a flight to Manchester, UK and on a JFK-DCA flight were Comair suddenly cancelled our flight due to maintenance but managed to get us on another flight from LGA-DCA on Shuttle that leaves in 2 hours. We all made it to LGA with only 10 minutes before that Shuttle flight left. When i finally made it home to DC, my original flight from JFK-DCA was only an hour and 30 minutes late. So, Comair had lied to us and Comair did a really piss poor job with our transportation from JFK to LGA. But, for seven hours?!? That's insane. I think if that was me, I would've lost all my respect for Shuttle America at all.

[Edited 2007-06-28 10:46:49]
 
airlineaddict
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:07 pm

Here's this from June 21st... stuck on a Comair airplane at JFK for four hours with no air conditioning until they finally allowed passengers to deplane.

(story and video)

http://cbs2chicago.com/topstories/topstories_story_179022614.html
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:57 am

Note how DL doesn't get any coverage while JetBlue got tons.

 crazy 

JetBluefan1
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 6):
Note how DL doesn't get any coverage while JetBlue got tons.

It is called Maximization of Crews, and sadly Delta and their renewed image are being killed in the New York market. I have 3 colleagues that were to fly Delta from JFK-LAS, due to the video seen about the ComAir flight they decided to cancel their tickets and rebook onboard Jet Blue. Time is money, to blame ATC for everything is a bunch of crap..

This is going to continue. Delta will continue to have these problems until they get their house in order.

Quoting Acey (Reply 2):
No biggie. Happened to a bunch more guys at JFK tonight

And will continue to happen until someone in Congress does something about it..

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 1):
I flew on Comair

That is a problem in and of itself..

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
UN_B732
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:09 am

Notice how the 4 hour delay on Comair got much more attention than the 7 hour Shuttle America delay to DFW, and they actually flew!
Then again, OH didn't have working A/C and there were vomiting pax.

Did anyone else here really like the F/A (with the Spanish accent)? I felt like he was really trying under the circumstances. The captain who "timed out" also seemed like he was legitimately concerned, unlike the Comair pilots on JFK-DTW's indifference.

-A
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Goldenshield
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:15 am

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 8):
The captain who "timed out" also seemed like he was legitimately concerned, unlike the Comair pilots on JFK-DTW's indifference.

I'm sure you would sound indifferent, too, if you had some guy barge into the cockpit and demanding answers to questions that could not be answered within the amount of time this guy wanted them. Not to mention that becuase of the storm, the passengers could not be let off of the aircraft. What was he to do? Passengers throwing up does NOT constitute an emergency need to evacuate the passengers from the aircraft.
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Acey
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 8):
Did anyone else here really like the F/A (with the Spanish accent)? I felt like he was really trying under the circumstances.

That was the captain who replaced the timed-out captain.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 7):
And will continue to happen until someone in Congress does something about it.

 checkmark  I agree. Reactions such as...

Quoting Mneo (Thread starter):
I really dont know what to say.

...are helpless because this kind of thing happens all the time, we're just usually not aware of it. Whenever storms roll through someone always ends up sitting on the ramp for 5 hours.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
747fan
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:24 am

The whoe NE region of the country really got hammered last night from severe storms - there were quite a few power outages in Manhattan and I heard some of the subway was even down for a while! Wow!
 
UN_B732
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:11 am

The guy with an accent was a captain? Because they were on the P/A I assumed it was an F/A..

Still, it seems like the pilots were really concerned. No FAs to be seen though.

-A
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dl767captain
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:17 am

the whole thing must have really sucked but at least they were keeping the passengers infromed since there really was nothing the crew could do, bummer!
 
spacecadet
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 9):
Not to mention that becuase of the storm, the passengers could not be let off of the aircraft.

First time I've ever heard that a bus is inoperable in the rain.

Why do some people just continuously make excuses for the airlines here? People drive in rain all the time, people walk in rain all the time. If you can't fly in rain, then get the people off the plane. It is just not that difficult of a concept to grasp.
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AirTranTUS
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:27 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 7):
I have 3 colleagues that were to fly Delta from JFK-LAS, due to the video seen about the ComAir flight they decided to cancel their tickets and rebook onboard Jet Blue. Time is money, to blame ATC for everything is a bunch of crap..

Hopefully they didn't fly last night, when the jetBlue flights were 5 hours late. jetBlue flights are not free from weather and ATC delays. Blaming ATC is not crap. The weather is crap, and ATC has to adjust, and passengers suffer. It is not jetBlue's, Delta's, or anyone's fault; it's just the way the weather works.

The lesson to be learned is, if flying into New York in the summer, make sure you arrive and depart before 3 PM, and fly through any other airport if connecting.
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AirTranTUS
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:29 am

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 14):
First time I've ever heard that a bus is inoperable in the rain.

If the ramp is closed, no one can be outside. How does one get to a bus? By walking outside. The ramp is closed for their safety. If someone were struck by lightning or had a cone blown into them and sued, everyone would be saying they should have been left on the plane. There is no way to make everyone happy.
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positiverate
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 7):
And will continue to happen until someone in Congress does something about it..

And by that I hope you mean the new user fee system to modernize the ATC system, and NOT the passenger bill of rights. Congress does not need to be legislating customer service levels for private industry.
 
IPFreely
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:52 am

Quoting GOCAPS16 (Reply 4):
I think if that was me, I would've lost all my respect for Shuttle America at all.

Hmmm, maybe no comment is needed.  Smile

I really liked the fact that they put subtitles in the video for the Captain's PA announcements, which were (sort of) in English.
 
incitatus
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:06 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 7):
And will continue to happen until someone in Congress does something about it..

Short of outlawing bad weather, Congress can't do much for many cases. Some of the ideas being circulated simply imply in a massive growth of preventive cancellations. Lots more passengers would see their flights cancelled and with a slight shift in weather those cancellations would have proved unnecessary.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 17):
And by that I hope you mean the new user fee system to modernize the ATC system,

Now, that would be something positive - but not a fix to most bad weather meltdowns.
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blueflyer
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 19):
Short of outlawing bad weather

You can't outlaw bad weather, but you can outlaw overcapacity scheduling, and in my opinion, that would be a great start. I can't think of a single reason why airlines ought to be allowed to schedule more flights in and out of an airport than the runway capacity and landing procedures allow for. Of course, how you determine the capacity threshold (absolute capacity, average historical capacity for the month/season, somewhat arbitrary number, etc...) and how you allocate it is a debate unto itself.

Wasn't it CO that at one time had just by itself more flights scheduled to leave EWR within a 60-minute period of the evening bank than the entire runway capacity ?
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jcs17
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:53 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 7):
And will continue to happen until someone in Congress does something about it..

Well, that wins the "Misguided Statement of the Month" award. Congress doesn't understand the industry and legislating something like aircraft delays is like telling a chef to be a police officer. The real problem stems from the fact that this flight was operated by Shuttle America for Delta. Delta doesn't really care because the flight, operationally, has very little to do with DL aside from a flight number. As far as they're concerned, once the a/c has pushed back, it's out of their hair. The real problem is that airlines (CO, NW, AA are probably the lone exceptions) generally do have that attitude towards the regionals flying for them.

As for comaparing the to the Jetblue incident several months ago, it really doesn't compare at all.
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FLYGUY767
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:57 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 17):
Congress does not need to be legislating customer service levels for private industry.

What happened on that plane was nothing short of holding people hostage. If the passengers wanted to deboard the aircraft they should have been allowed to. The excuse of no gate space is a bunch of garbage. Air Stairs are readily available at JFK, as are mobile lounges, buses, and transports to the terminal for stranded passengers, as were on this flight. The problem is that airlines max out the equipment to a point that one plane out of service causes the entire deck of cards to crumble. I cannot see how these kinds of incidents will be allowed to continue without a long-term solution coming into play.

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 21):
As for comaparing the to the Jetblue incident several months ago, it really doesn't compare at all.

So True.. As Jet Blue at least fed and offered beverages, entertained with PTV, to the passengers aboard the plane..

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 21):
Delta doesn't really care because the flight, operationally, has very little to do with DL aside from a flight number. As far as they're concerned, once the a/c has pushed back, it's out of their hair.

That is the attitude that drives customers, even the most loyal customers to other airlines. The approach that AA, CO, and NW have to their regionals is much more cordial, and thus why these kinds of incidents are not happening on those airlines for the most part. In the long run if this continues I can see we will be expecting weekly reports on stranded Comair and Shuttle America pax at JFK. Regional or not, Delta has to be feeling the heat of these recent incidents..

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 19):
Lots more passengers would see their flights cancelled and with a slight shift in weather those cancellations would have proved unnecessary.

At an airport like JFK why is it that Delta cant fill a MD88 or 738 to Dallas? It amazes me to see that almost all of Delta Air Lines recent domestic growth has come on the backs of the Barbie and Jungle Jets. Do we need another one of these flights at JFK, EWR, or LGA? I hope the answer is no!

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 17):
I hope you mean the new user fee system to modernize the ATC system, and NOT the passenger bill of rights.

So we are to blame the ATC for all of the problems?? Well that would be inaccurate at best. Airlines have grown their schedules so bloated, and so frequent that ATC cant keep up with it. Unless there is a ton of money invested in ATC in the next few years, instead of expanding airlines are going to have to decrease frequency in favor of larger equipment, most notably in the NYC market. The system can only handle so much. ATC is not the sole person to blame, the airlines and their adoration for small planes at redundant frequencies have choked airports like JFK, EWR, and LGA.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 15):
The lesson to be learned is, if flying into New York in the summer, make sure you arrive and depart before 3 PM, and fly through any other airport if connecting.

Newark on average sees delays of 1 hour more than JFK..

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
dutchjet
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 22):
So True.. As Jet Blue at least fed and offered beverages, entertained with PTV, to the passengers aboard the plane..

Now JetBlue is the good guy, and Delta (insert regional partner) is the bad buy? Last February, opinions were very very different.

-------------

Look, what happened on that airplane was horrible, get the pax off of the airplane until there is a reasonable expectation that the flight can depart.....clearly, at a certain point in this flight's story, there were no pilots to fly the airplane to Dallas, the crew was timing out and the new pilots were at EWR, so why hold the passengers on board in uncomfortable seats without food? (I dont even want to think about those little kids....I dont know if it was worse for the kids or the pax listening to their cries.) I agree with you, the ""NO GATE"" excuse is nonsense. Get the pax off of the airplane until (1) there are pilots to fly the airplane and (2) the flight is 100% ready to taxi to the runway (if the flight is number 30 for take-off at that point, there is little that can be done, but a one hour wait onboard is very different than sitting on an airplane for 6 hours withing pissing distance of the terminal and not being let off.)

Maybe we need more regional jets creating congestion at major airports? While we cant control the weather, and ATC does the best it can with these difficult situations, something eventually has to be done about airport congestion.

This really isnt about Delta, or Comair, or JetBlue or any other airline, its about a system that is not working. Mistakes were made in this situation, but the bigger problem is how to deal with prolonged delays such as this due to conditions out of the airlines' control.
 
GQfluffy
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:36 am

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 14):
First time I've ever heard that a bus is inoperable in the rain.

True. The only other question I had was visibilty on the runways. It looked fine when they were parked on the ramp...
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:44 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 23):
Now JetBlue is the good guy, and Delta (insert regional partner) is the bad buy? Last February, opinions were very very different.

I am not saying anyone is good or bad.. What I was saying was that JetBlue outwardly was doing more its passengers than Delta(Shuttle America), was doing in this case. A passenger doesnt know the difference from Shuttle America to Delta. To them it is one in the same. The service, or lack of care in this case falls from the customers eyes onto Delta Air Lines.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 24):
This really isnt about Delta, or Comair, or JetBlue or any other airline, its about a system that is not working.

100% Agreed.. But I will continue to say that the system is not working because in the New York City market we have way to many little planes coming to and from the same places that cause the problems clogging up the skies over JFK, EWR, and LGA. That problem could easily be solved by using larger equipment at a less frequent schedule. Our airports are overcrowded, our skies are clogged, yet the airlines keeping adding Jungle and Barbies just to play one up with each other. Who wins in the end? It certainly doesnt seem like the passengers or the overcrowded airports they fly from..

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 22):
Newark on average sees delays of 1 hour more than JFK..

Newark = New York City Metro Area, which I meant.

My statement should probably go for PHL as well, but PHL has other reasons why it should be avoided.
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positiverate
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 22):
Quoting Positiverate (Reply 17):
I hope you mean the new user fee system to modernize the ATC system, and NOT the passenger bill of rights.

So we are to blame the ATC for all of the problems?? Well that would be inaccurate at best. Airlines have grown their schedules so bloated, and so frequent that ATC cant keep up with it. Unless there is a ton of money invested in ATC in the next few years, instead of expanding airlines are going to have to decrease frequency in favor of larger equipment, most notably in the NYC market. The system can only handle so much. ATC is not the sole person to blame, the airlines and their adoration for small planes at redundant frequencies have choked airports like JFK, EWR, and LGA.

So you agree with me then. Their needs to be a significant investment made in the ATC system and in the airports to increase capacity. Few, if any, that are educated on this issue disagree with that statement. Congress' role, to which I was referring, has to do with the fact that the aviation taxes and fees associated with funding the Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) operation and oversight of the federal aviation system will expire at the end of FY2007, as will most of the related federal aviation programs. These taxes and fees, which are deposited in the airport and airways trust fund (aviation trust fund), pay for the majority of FAA's activities. The FAA, industry, passenger's rights groups, and others have expressed concern that the current funding system is inadequate to meet future federal needs for upgrading, expanding, maintaining, and operating the existing federal air navigation system as part of the FAA's Next Generation Air Transportation System (NGATS). Furthermore, the current financing system needs to be reexamined because it is potentially unreliable, e.g. events such as September 11th and recessions can have a major and unpredictable impact on annual tax and fee collections. Hence, in this view, the existing system might not be able to provide the long term consistent source of annual revenues that would allow for the orderly funding of NGATS and other FAA programs.

Congress has begun consideration of the FAA reauthorization proposal and hearings began in the House and Senate authorizing committees during the month of March. Congress' FAA reauthorization proposal must also face consideration by congressional finance committees, and needs to address three questions. First is the question of whether the trust fund will provide sufficient revenue to meet the growing needs of the FAA's activities and programs. Second is the controversial issue of how much of the FAA's total funding should come from the Treasury's general fund account, the so-called "public interest" contribution. And third is the long standing issue of whether the existing tax and fee system is the appropriate mechanism for producing trust fund revenues, or whether an entirely new revenue collection mechanism should be adopted.

The FAA, industry, and passenger groups remain firmly convinced of the need to create a new aviation funding system, with corresponding FAA budgetary and administrative changes.

So, to answer your question, I don't blame "ATC". I do blame the system though, and the system is run by the government. Government's role is to create conditions whereby business can thrive. In this case, the government has failed in that role, because the conditions they have created (i.e. with airport capacity and the lack of a modern ATC system) have not allowed airlines to thrive. The reason that airplane sat out on the taxiway for 7 hours was partly weather, but mostly because the airspace, taxiways, and runways were clogged with traffic. Traffic has gone up because demand has gone up, yet government has not responded by also increasing capacity proportionally.

As for Congress legislating customer service levels, before they do it for airlines can they also do it for restaurants, retail stores, auto mechanics, move theatres, etc etc etc.
 
positiverate
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 22):
approach that AA, CO, and NW have to their regionals is much more cordial, and thus why these kinds of incidents are not happening on those airlines for the most part.

They're not?

I've sat in DTW on a NW Airlink CRJ for 3 hours because lightning was in the area and no one could marshal us in.

I've sat in line at JFK for 2 hours on American Eagle.

Just because this one guy had an issue (granted a big one), and happened to videotape it doesn;t mean that 1) it doesn't happen at other airlines and 2) it happens all the time at Delta Connection...
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 27):
As for Congress legislating customer service levels, before they do it for airlines can they also do it for restaurants, retail stores, auto mechanics, move theatres, etc etc etc.

It appears my words have not come across in the manner I was trying to express. What I was trying to say was that the trend of holding passengers hostage aboard the aircraft as was the case with the JFK-DFW flight should not be an acceptable SOP for the airlines. Any airline that does this should be held accountable and called on it. You cannot hold someone in this country against their own free will. The notion of telling people they cant get off of a plane that has not left the ground after a 7 hour delay onboard the flight is ludicrous.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 27):
The reason that airplane sat out on the taxiway for 7 hours was partly weather, but mostly because the airspace, taxiways, and runways were clogged with traffic.

The other reason that was left off of the response was that the airlines have maxed out their fleets to a point they have no choice but to fly the flight, or lose the revenue for both the arriving and departing flight of that aircraft. That surely is not the fault of ATC. It is the fault of airlines that max out their fleets without a replacement in cases such as this.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
positiverate
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:15 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 29):
The other reason that was left off of the response was that the airlines have maxed out their fleets to a point they have no choice but to fly the flight, or lose the revenue for both the arriving and departing flight of that aircraft. That surely is not the fault of ATC. It is the fault of airlines that max out their fleets without a replacement in cases such as this.

Go back and read the whole post:

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 27):
The reason that airplane sat out on the taxiway for 7 hours was partly weather, but mostly because the airspace, taxiways, and runways were clogged with traffic. Traffic has gone up because demand has gone up, yet government has not responded by also increasing capacity proportionally.

So airlines, who exist to turn a profit, are not supposed to meet demand? That's ludicrous. And you want airlines to have airplanes lying around, instead of "maxing out their fleets" and running it to peak efficiency? Right. I'll spell it out again for you since you missed it the first time:

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 27):
So, to answer your question, I don't blame "ATC". I do blame the system though, and the system is run by the government. Government's role is to create conditions whereby business can thrive. In this case, the government has failed in that role, because the conditions they have created (i.e. with airport capacity and the lack of a modern ATC system) have not allowed airlines to thrive.



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 29):
What I was trying to say was that the trend of holding passengers hostage aboard the aircraft as was the case with the JFK-DFW flight should not be an acceptable SOP for the airlines. Any airline that does this should be held accountable and called on it. You cannot hold someone in this country against their own free will. The notion of telling people they cant get off of a plane that has not left the ground after a 7 hour delay onboard the flight is ludicrous.

And you probably would be the same guy who complained that they missed their departure slot because they were too busy letting people off the airplane...

[Edited 2007-06-28 23:17:42]
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:28 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 30):
Go back and read the whole post

I have read the post.. The response given was that the airline is in part to blame for maxing out its fleet, at an overextended airport such as JFK.

It has been proven over and over again, even the video spelled out that the airline did not want to return to the gate as it would take to much time. The aircraft had a mechanical which was said time and time again throughout the video. The aircraft had a mechanical issue, is that the fault of ATC?

Delta Air Lines/Shuttle America dispatch was the one who decided not to cancel the flight. To make it even worse the flight was delayed so long there was a change of crew. This was a mismanagement of fleet, crew, and resources.. The airline didnt want to get food, and Delta didnt want to do anything since the flight was not supposed to be catered in the first place. Again, Delta Air Lines was to blame from the get go. Not ATC!

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 30):
So airlines, who exist to turn a profit, are not supposed to meet demand? That's ludicrous

What is ludicrous is that the blame being posted by yourself doesn't fall in part on the airline for maximization of fleet resources, in a market that is extremely time sensitive. Blaming ATC for the problems that have happened over the last week is totally false.

Delta Air Line went so far as to say the flight landed at 750pm>>> Come on is ATC to blame for that as well?

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 30):
And you probably would be the same guy who complained that they missed their departure slot because they were too busy letting people off the airplane...

That was out of left field...

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
EA772LR
Posts: 1285
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:18 am

RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:59 am

"Why do some people just continuously make excuses for the airlines"

I agree. There was absolutely NO reason those people should have gone through that crap. Unbelievable.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
boacvc10
Posts: 469
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:31 pm

RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:08 am

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 16):
If the ramp is closed, no one can be outside. How does one get to a bus? By walking outside. The ramp is closed for their safety. If someone were struck by lightning or had a cone blown into them and sued, everyone would be saying they should have been left on the plane. There is no way to make everyone happy.

I guess one has to be very naive in their experiences or just plain ignorant of the available GSE in use in various airports worldwide. YOU CAN GET COVERED MOBILE / TOWABLE ADJUSTABLE stairs, for deplaning passengers from aircraft, that can be equipped with full weather shielded canopies. The only thing you need to do is to dock the mobile stairs with the aircraft and have the bus / ground transport drive directly into the canopy area of the stairs on the tarmac. I give an example of a commercial product, there are others out there. Note the words: "Enclosed canopy for flights and
platform". While the product I am describing is for larger aircraft, a small CRJ/ERJ aircraft sized mobile stairs should not be that expensive.

Note to moderators, there is another thread describing the PAX/Video JFK 4 hour ground delay, similiar in nature to this discussion, suggest merging the two threads into one.


BOACVC10
Up, up and Away!
 
FLYGUY767
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 32):
"Why do some people just continuously make excuses for the airlines"

I agree. There was absolutely NO reason those people should have gone through that crap. Unbelievable

 checkmark 

100% Agreed

The poor airline excuse is used at time when the airlines are partially to blame. By no means are mechanical, fleet maximization, or crew timing outs the fault of the ATC. The airlines are in fact the ones that are pushing their crews, gates, fleets and other resources to their limits. ATC controls the flights, yes they are to blame if they give incorrect taxiway information, gate information, and so forth. Yet the airlines should have the common sense not to have huge arrival and departure banks utilizing their fleets to the max at an airport like JFK. Leaving no room for fault is causing these events to become as common as gate changes.


-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
tockeyhockey
Posts: 880
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:57 pm

RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:29 am

honestly, it's only a matter of time until one of these situations turns into a riot, or a passenger pulling the emergency exit handle. i know i would be tempted.

you simply cannot "imprison" a hundred people and expect it to go smoothly. the airlines need to come up with a way to get people back to the terminal.
 
FLYGUY767
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:35 am

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 35):
you simply cannot "imprison" a hundred people and expect it to go smoothly. the airlines need to come up with a way to get people back to the terminal.

Sad thing is that it would appear they dont want to incurr the cost and that truely is sad..

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
F9Animal
Posts: 3649
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:44 am

Was that a CRJ? I bet the passengers could not even walk off the plane when it landed. I spent 4 hours on a CRJ-900, and I almost needed an ambulance to help me get up.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
FURUREFA
Posts: 635
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 2:26 am

RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:45 am

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 8):
Did anyone else here really like the F/A (with the Spanish accent)?

I think he has a French accent. He seemed to be doing his best with an uncooperative company!
Matt
 
movingtin
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:03 am

RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:08 am

It's amazing how far out of touch with reality some of the peeps on this board are!

You want congress to fix the problem? I agree, after working in this industry for 19 yrs, I would love to see them re-regulate the industry! Allocate routes, flight times, and set the profit margins. you want airlines to reduce their flights? fine, the DOT can set up every airlines schedule, And the customers can pay accordingly! You want full meal service in every class? no problem. What else? 10 Flight Attendants, guaranteed arrival times, Spare A/C for those pesky Mechanicals? No problem! Please hurry up Congress, I am tired of taking pay-cuts because people think they are ENTITLED to fly first class around the world for $99, get there early and still have a few A/C waiting with engines running, spare crew on board, and 25 busses standing by just in case. While we are at it, we should get 1 free flt for every $99 trip we pay for!
 
GQfluffy
Posts: 3072
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:12 am

You people amaze me. You people are bitching about people being "held hostage", airlines purposely doing this, not blaming ATC, not blaming weather, just purely turning around and blame blame blame the airline and us "idiot rampers". Your supposed fix all is to get more crews, change departure/arrival times, buy more aircraft, make sure everything on every single aircraft is operational at all times, and maybe freeze hell over. This is an impossible situation folks. And it's getting worse because the flying public these days isn't willing to put up with ANYTHING anymore. Sure, fares have gone up, flights are a bit more oversold, there is less capacity on the routes, amenities have been taken away in the sake of trying to save money so a fare can stay down, etc etc. This all sucks, and it does lead to passenger complaints. But if airlines were to incorporate things that have been mentioned in this thread, it wouldn't fix a damned thing. It would send most airlines into the ground, close up shop, and be done forever. Airlines had more aircraft on the routes, had more crews to hopefully avoid crews running up their hours, oh, and with more aircraft, there was more of a chance of having a tail-swap just in case something wasn't working right on one particular aircraft scheduled to go out. Then 9/11 came, and the soaring fuel prices. Airlines had to cut back to still offer affordable fares. But is the public grateful? No, it isn't good enough for you guys. You want the world handed to you on a platter for 2 cents.

Ok, so, this aircraft was trying to get out, got stuck in a line of traffic (thanks to Ground and ATC), and sat there, and sat there, and sat there some more. They can't move, can't ask for clearance to another hopefully active runway, because they already know what the response will be. So, they are doing what they are supposed to be doing; trying to get a plane full of paying passengers to their destination. But they can't move, because no other flights are moving. Oops, 4 hours later the crew hits time, they're done. But this isn't ATC or WX, this is the airline's fault? Bullshit. Pure, udder BS. But no, I'm wrong, because airlines should bankrupt themselves to make sure these very rare occurrences never happen.  Yeah sure

Maybe fares should go back up, like they were in 70's and 80's. That way most of us Americans can't afford to fly, so we won't have to hear about how wronged we were by an airline who was just trying to get us from point A to point B.
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
positiverate
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:17 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 31):
The response given was that the airline is in part to blame for maxing out its fleet, at an overextended airport such as JFK.

AND, ATC (i.e. the Government) is in part to blame for not creating a system that is able to meet the capacity demands put upon it. That is why you have the 3 hour taxi times at JFK.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 31):
The aircraft had a mechanical which was said time and time again throughout the video.

Ok, point made. However, they also took a delay because the weather impacted operations and, again, the infrastructure in place (ATC/Government) couldn't handle demand and weather. Again, I blame ATC/Government.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 31):
What is ludicrous is that the blame being posted by yourself doesn't fall in part on the airline for maximization of fleet resources, in a market that is extremely time sensitive. Blaming ATC for the problems that have happened over the last week is totally false.

No, I blame the government which, again, has not created conditions whereby business can thrive. I do not blame the airline for trying to maximize its resources so that extra airplanes and crews are not sitting on the ground waiting to be used as spares, and instead are flying and generating revenue for the company. I think blaming the government and ATC for consistenly not having the infrastructure in place to meet the growing demand and increased capacity over the last 10 years is appropriate.

You do know that the government runs ATC, right?
 
positiverate
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:20 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 34):
no means are mechanical, fleet maximization, or crew timing outs the fault of the ATC.

1) I will cede the point on mechanicals.

2) What do you define "fleet maximization" as?

3) Is it the fault of ATC when a crew times out after pushing back, starting the clock, and taxiing out on a flight that should only last them, say, and hour, only to hold on the ground for 4 hours because ATC is too backed up to handle traffic on a clear day? So crew scheduling then should build a window of time into each rotation in case the ATC system shuts down, like it did two weeks ago?
 
UN_B732
Posts: 3529
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 12:57 am

RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:21 am

I agree, but also the airlines are at least partially at fault here - knowing the capacity of JFK throwing flight after flight after flight onto its congested runways.
-A
What now?
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7797
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:37 am

I give the first Captain a lot of respect for addressing his passengers face to face.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Vega9000
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:48 am

RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:41 am

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 35):
honestly, it's only a matter of time until one of these situations turns into a riot, or a passenger pulling the emergency exit handle. i know i would be tempted.

 checkmark 

Agreed. This is like watching an accident happen in slow motion. You know it's going to happen, that people will probably be hurt, or somebody is going to have a heart attack or a seizure, that a media circus ensues, then to a public outcry, and leading to Congress taking some sort of measure that is harsher than it needs to be. I just hope it doesn't happen to a child.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 40):
And it's getting worse because the flying public these days isn't willing to put up with ANYTHING anymore

Right. How dare you complain for being stuck in a metal tube with 200 other people for a mere 7 hours with no food. Crybabies...  Yeah sure

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 40):
Your supposed fix all is to get more crews, change departure/arrival times, buy more aircraft, make sure everything on every single aircraft is operational at all times, and maybe freeze hell over

No. Just let the people get off the plane after, say, 3 hours...
Don't believe anything you read on the net. Except this. Well, including this, I suppose.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5159
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:21 am

I think this is more a matter of Shuttle America just being a disorganized mess. I flew them back and forth to Dallas. The crews were nice people, and seemed to be trying, but they gave off a whiff of disorganization that wasn't promising. On the JFK-DFW leg, we missed the departure time when we didn't have to due to pretty-poor planning: they knew they'd be loading displaced pax aboard, but didn't start loading them until a good 15 minutes after everyone else was seated and the door was going to be closed. Then, of course, we had to get in a line that was longer because of the delay. On the return, they didn't load enough fuel to take into account deteriorating conditions in the New York area, and we had to land along the way for more fuel when facing just a 30-minute circling hold.

The pilot bathroom breaks on the flight back were just asinine. The crew goes out of service and blocks the aisle with the drink cart so one pilot can pee. One f/a joins the other pilot in the cockpit. Then the process is repeated with the other pilot. This time the pilot (the captain I think) blabbed and blabbed and blabbed with the f/a, just standing in front of us. I timed it at more than 20 minutes, IIRC. Meanwhile, the other f/a is blabbing in the cockpit with the other pilot. Sorry, guys, how about getting me a drink. "Ding." "Sorry, there's no service right now for security reasons." Riiiiight. It was like children playing at running an airline. "Dude, we get to hit on the f/a's!!"

I had assumed that my experience might have been the exception. From all we're reading on this thread, it doesn't sound like it.
 
Evan767
Posts: 2198
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:52 am

RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:22 am

Stay away from JFK. Always. Unless you are forced to, simply don't connect through JFK, it's a bitch. I really wish that airports CVG and ATL would just swap. Then CVG would be a perfect hub.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
positiverate
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:42 am

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 43):
the airlines are at least partially at fault here - knowing the capacity of JFK throwing flight after flight after flight onto its congested runways.

Fair point, but which airline is going to be the first to cede market share in an effort to reduce capacity? No one airline is going to unilaterally disarm.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 46):
The pilot bathroom breaks on the flight back were just asinine. The crew goes out of service and blocks the aisle with the drink cart so one pilot can pee. One f/a joins the other pilot in the cockpit. Then the process is repeated with the other pilot. This time the pilot (the captain I think) blabbed and blabbed and blabbed with the f/a, just standing in front of us. I timed it at more than 20 minutes, IIRC. Meanwhile, the other f/a is blabbing in the cockpit with the other pilot. Sorry, guys, how about getting me a drink. "Ding." "Sorry, there's no service right now for security reasons." Riiiiight. It was like children playing at running an airline. "Dude, we get to hit on the f/a's!!"

So, lemme get this right: you're judging them because on an over 2 hour flight the pilots used the restroom and stretched their legs?
 
GQfluffy
Posts: 3072
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: Video Of The 7 Hour Ground Delay DL JFK-DFW

Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:54 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 48):
So, lemme get this right: you're judging them because on an over 2 hour flight the pilots used the restroom and stretched their legs?

Next you'll hear that the pilots got to stretch their legs but the passengers supposedly didn't...  hissyfit 
This isn't where I parked my car...

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