Boston92
Topic Author
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri May 10, 2002 7:54 pm

Quoting Oakjam (Reply 92):
Since B6 is looking for gates at LAX.

How big of an ops do they want at LAX?
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
Boston92
Topic Author
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Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:12 am

I think that UA without a doubt nailed it when choosing their five hubs.

1. I think all of them have very different tasks, and when combined, it is perfect.

SFO covers all intl travel from DEN west and connects flights that are wholly on the west
LAX has the regional/express flights covered for the west coast
DEN connects both the coasts for travelers terminating in central US
ORD connects, well, everything
IAD connects flights that originate and terminate on the east coast

2. The location of the hubs is also ingenius... there are few routes that United could not do because of hub location (i.e. If IAD was not a hub, who would fly to ORD from BOS when they are going to MIA)?

3. All the hubs are at airports that I do not mind going to. All airports are beautiful and are very nice to go and visit.

4. Including regional flights (i.e. Skywest), United "owns" the airport. All their hubs have major ops; no minor hubs.

I just think that UA has a VERY complete hub operation, any comments, positive or negative, are welcome (I wanna hear what you think, regardless).
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:13 am

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
I just think that UA has a VERY complete hub operation, any comments, positive or negative, are welcome (I wanna hear what you think, regardless).

It leaves a big hole in the southeast and Mid-South.

If these hubs were superior, UA would be making more money than they are.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
atlaaron
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:24 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 1):
It leaves a big hole in the southeast and Mid-South.

Correct, and they know it. Hence the comments by the CFO of needing a merger partner in the South.
 
RSWA330
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:32 am

I think AA has a pretty decent hub system. On the opposite end of the spectrum, NW definately has the worst hubs (domestically at least). DTW and MSP are so close together. Anyone know why NW chose these two airports especially given NW's operation in East Asia? I would think they would have looked farther West.
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:33 am

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
1. I think all of them have very different tasks, and when combined, it is perfect.

They're not bad as a whole and better than most but hardly perfect. I can think of issues with each one and certainly they are lacking a hub in the Southeast and even the Midsouth as stated in one of the posts above. Anyone have the fgures of how many MAINLINE flights they run out of each?
 
atlaaron
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:34 am

Quoting RSWA330 (Reply 3):
I think AA has a pretty decent hub system.

I disagree. It is very hard to live on the east coast and fly to another city on the east coast via AA. I once had a credit on them to use and had to fly PIT-DFW-MCO.
 
AirCop
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:39 am

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
IAD connects flights that originate and terminate on the east coast

This hub was rumored to be closed when UA went into bankruptcy. Aside from the European flights there is no other reason to have IAD as a hub.

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 1):
It leaves a big hole in the southeast and Mid-South.

Something that has always been a problem at UA.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:48 am

Quoting RSWA330 (Reply 3):
I think AA has a pretty decent hub system.

AA has great east-west hubs and MIA-Latin America/Caribbean. They are weak though in the Southeast and west. UA does have their hubs spread out in good cities with O&D though.
 
AA757200
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:50 am

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
All airports are beautiful and are very nice to go and visit

Have you been to LAX recently?
 
Cactus742
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:54 am

Quoting RSWA330 (Reply 3):
Anyone know why NW chose these two airports especially given NW's operation in East Asia? I would think they would have looked farther West.

You mean, say, in the Northwest?
Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:03 am

Quoting RSWA330 (Reply 3):
DTW and MSP are so close together

Hub Cities that are closer together than DTW and MSP (528 miles)

CVG-ATL 373 mi
PHL-CLT 448 mi
EWR-CLE 404 mi
LAX-SFO 337 mi

Hub cities that are only slightly further apart than DTW and MSP

ORD-IAD 589 mi
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
JBLUA320
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:05 am

UA's system is okay... but I don't think any one airline really has this country nailed. Each major airline has a hole somewhere. That's why we have codeshares!

I think if any airline is closest to getting it right, it's either Delta or the new US Airways.

JBLU

[Edited 2007-06-29 03:09:54]
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:08 am

Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 5):
I disagree. It is very hard to live on the east coast and fly to another city on the east coast via AA. I once had a credit on them to use and had to fly PIT-DFW-MCO.

 checkmark 

Although I live in Nashville, one of AA's failures - I think RDU could have worked as an east coast hub. It, along with BNA were victims of bad timing IMO. Had RJ's been around, they could have supplemented mainline services. I know AA has quite a few RJ's at RDU now, but I wouldn't consider it a connecting hub by any means. I'm trying to book some AAdvantage miles from BNA to JAX, and my choices are obviously quite limited and out of the way no matter which direction I go.

I'm not all that impressed with UA's hub placement. SFO and IAD are basically there just for international flights. Many SFO destinations are once a day and IAD is still largely RJ. ORD has a nice terminal, but it's still ORD and that doesn't make it the most attractive option. As for DEN, UA has F9 to worry about, and now WN is looking to make serious inroads there indicated by yesterdays announcement of service realignment. If UA really needs a merger partner to cover the south, everyone says it's CO. I don't really consider IAH in the south so much as midwest. Who knows, maybe they will court US again, and get turned down by DOJ again.
 
halls120
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:20 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 6):
Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):IAD connects flights that originate and terminate on the east coast

This hub was rumored to be closed when UA went into bankruptcy. Aside from the European flights there is no other reason to have IAD as a hub.

Yes, it was. Fortunately, someone saw the idiocy of that approach, and instead of being cut back, UA strengthened its IAD ops.

Now if only they would build a proper C/D terminal. When you are sitting in the C17 RCC, you can look out the window and see where they are building a station for the new inter-terminal train. Which, for some time, won't have a terminal attached to it.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
navairjax
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:42 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 1):
It leaves a big hole in the southeast and Mid-South.

Hence a number of codeshare flights on US. CLT is also a great hub with much less delays than ATL.
 
deltairlines
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:50 am

I think UA has one of the stronger hub systems in the country; the major gaping hole of course is the Southeast; not a whole lot than can be done there though; ATL has Delta and AirTran, CLT has US Airways and the only other cities that have had hubs (Nashville and Raleigh) have both failed; BNA has a huge WN presence now that would turn off a lot of airlines to hubbing there; RDU has fit it's niche quite nicely as a mix of LCCs and full service airlines with frequent RJs to many business destinations. Florida is too far south for a domestic hub (hence, AA uses MIA for mainly international connections to the Caribbean and South America and some east-west traffic), and cities like BHM, MSY (post-Katrina), JAN, etc. can't really support a full hub operation.

Out of the airlines, here are my thoughts:
AA: Real good for east-west traffic. Real good for north-south in the middle part of the country. On the east coast, it's pretty limited; there is some focal points at BOS, NYC and RDU, but not a whole lot. West coast, AA tends to rely heavily on Alaska it seems.
DL: Northeast is strong with JFK (and focal points at LGA and BOS), Southeast has ATL, midwest has CVG. SLC has gotten stronger, which helps with east-west traffic. West coast is developing; it'll take some time for LAX to get up to full swing. It helps, but it's still lacking when you only have 1-2 options a day in many markets compared to WN, UA and AS having a lot of traffic there.
NW: Has the heartland and the Great Lakes under control. Good for east-west traffic. Pretty poor for any north-south traffic. MEM fills it's role; a little too far west to be an effective southeast hub though, especially compared to CLT and ATL. Probably the worst situation out there.
CO: Northeast is in great shape with EWR, Southwest with IAH gives good east-west traffic, CLE fills it's role. West Coast is lacking. The EWR hubs helps a lot with it, but not the most conducive setup for domestic ops.
US: Midwest is empty, but dominates the East Coast and adding HP adds a lot for east-west traffic and the Southwest.
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:59 am

Quoting Navairjax (Reply 14):
CLT is also a great hub with much less delays than ATL.

ATL now ranks better than CLT in terms of delays according DOT Bureau Of Transportation Statistics.

For the period Apr 2006 to Apr 2007 ATL's on-time rate was 73.18% while CLT's for the same period was 71.78%.

No doubt ATL's 5th runway has made a difference because the statistics do show CLT leading in the past.

http://www.transtats.bts.gov/OT_Delay/OT_DelayCause1.asp?pn=1
 
phlwok
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:58 am

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 16):
ATL now ranks better than CLT in terms of delays according DOT Bureau Of Transportation Statistics.

For the period Apr 2006 to Apr 2007 ATL's on-time rate was 73.18% while CLT's for the same period was 71.78%.

No doubt ATL's 5th runway has made a difference because the statistics do show CLT leading in the past.

http://www.transtats.bts.gov/OT_Dela...?pn=1

And remember, CLT is adding a runway as well to help with long term capacity and delays.
 
Boston92
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:19 pm

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 10):
LAX-SFO 337 mi

That is not a valid point... If SFO and ORD were UA's ONLY hubs, then it would be valid.

As for the south, I think UA should "re-invent" TED with WN in mind and make some sort of a [very]quick turnaround hub somewhere in the south.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
flyiguy
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:41 pm

If UA is in need of a hub in the south then I would look to merge with Spirit. they have the same aircraft as UA and same engines so it makes for less parts to keep on hand. they have a hub in FLL which would open up the south, carribean, and latin america for UA. I think Spirit would be the best be...but thtas just me...any suggestions ?

Chris
The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
 
Boston92
Topic Author
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:55 pm

On the note of bad hub systems, I think that somewhere at the top the list would be B6... Two largest hubs being BOS and JFK with two other close "wimpy" hubs being LGB and OAK.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
COERJ145
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:01 pm

Quoting FlyIGuy (Reply 19):
If UA is in need of a hub in the south then I would look to merge with Spirit. they have the same aircraft as UA and same engines so it makes for less parts to keep on hand. they have a hub in FLL which would open up the south, carribean, and latin america for UA. I think Spirit would be the best be...but thtas just me...any suggestions ?

Interesting thought, they could also pressure AA at MIA with spirits latin america hub/gateway(FLL). A NW/NK merger would be good on NWs part, as it would elimintate competition at DTW, while giving them latin america access. A NK/B6 merger would be nice as well, giving B6 more international destinations. It would fit well with B6s FLL flights from BOS/JFK and other east coast cities.
 
Boston92
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:17 pm

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 21):

Yeah but what about Allegiant?
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
airfrnt
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:21 pm

UA is pretty well set hub wise. I do think that they want to push more to the south, and I think they have a huge problem with their DEN hub which is under assault not only by WN and AA, but by the fact that virtually every other carrier in the United States flies there.

DEN gives UA the ability to push passengers east/west and north/south. I think part of the reason you see WN pushing DEN as aggressively as they are is because they are seeing real value to the same trends, breaking up transcons into two shorter hops, and building demand.

ORD provides a huge market. ORD is becoming too congested to be a connection hub for domestic service, but it does well internationally. DEN is picking up the slack with domestic connecting, esp with the new RJ concourse.

SFO does pretty well, but if UA could have all their transcon out of LAX, I suspect that they would do that in a heart beat.

IAD is the week link in the whole system from my point of view.
 
MD-90
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:46 pm

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 7):
They are weak though in the Southeast and west.



Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 1):
It leaves a big hole in the southeast and Mid-South.



Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 15):
I think UA has one of the stronger hub systems in the country; the major gaping hole of course is the Southeast; not a whole lot than can be done there though

Which is why Southerners are so loyal to Delta: We really don't have all that much of a choice.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:53 pm

UA has admitted they are losing money in DEN and it's hard to see how WN's just-announced expansion of routes there will help the situation. I believe DEN, while looking so logical geographically, is much less attractive economically that the popular opinion holds. WN seems determined to make life miserable there for both UA and F9.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:08 pm

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 12):
SFO and IAD are basically there just for international flights. Many SFO destinations are once a day and IAD is still largely RJ.

Huh? SFO has a number of banks of flights connecting cities throughout the west, Hawaii and beyond. There's the noontime bank out to Asia, of course, but the terminal is far from empty the rest of the day. If I wanted to fly from here in PDX to PHX, say, there are probably a half a dozen choices via SFO on UA from morning until evening.
International Homo of Mystery
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:54 pm

Quoting AirCop (Reply 6):
This hub was rumored to be closed when UA went into bankruptcy. Aside from the European flights there is no other reason to have IAD as a hub.

Just European flight??....succesful flights added to PEK, NRT and soon to be daily KWI are not Europe. DXB is also on the radar, thank god they kept IAD and chose to expand it.

Quoting FlyIGuy (Reply 19):
If UA is in need of a hub in the south then I would look to merge with Spirit. they have the same aircraft as UA and same engines so it makes for less parts to keep on hand. they have a hub in FLL which would open up the south, carribean, and latin america for UA. I think Spirit would be the best be...but thtas just me...any suggestions ?

A comment that that has been suggested a few times on here and IMHO one that UA should seriously look at. It would make a lot of sense, although I fear theat those Top Dogs back at HQ are looking for a much bigger merger.
 
Boston92
Topic Author
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:47 am

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 27):
HQ are looking for a much bigger merger.

Bad move, I think small mergers have MUCH higher rates for great success.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
747fan
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting FlyIGuy (Reply 19):
If UA is in need of a hub in the south then I would look to merge with Spirit. they have the same aircraft as UA and same engines so it makes for less parts to keep on hand. they have a hub in FLL which would open up the south, carribean, and latin america for UA. I think Spirit would be the best be...but thtas just me...any suggestions ?

Theoretically, in terms of aircraft, that doesn't sound too bad; both have Airbus A320-series narrowbodies with IAE engines. And they'd get FLL, but then there's AA not too far down the road at MIA who dominates the region with their extensive Latin America/Carribean hub. MIA used to be a hub for UA actually but they closed it in the mid-90's (they got it from Pan Am) as AA was trouncing them.
 
rwsea
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:06 am

UA's hubs are strong in that they're all big

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 25):
UA has admitted they are losing money in DEN and it's hard to see how WN's just-announced expansion of routes there will help the situation. I believe DEN, while looking so logical geographically, is much less attractive economically that the popular opinion holds. WN seems determined to make life miserable there for both UA and F9.

And DEN is also the hub in the smallest city, with a relatively smaller business base than the other hubs (ORD, IAD, SFO, LAX).

UA's strong point is that all of its hubs (with maybe the exception of DEN) are significant business and tourism markets, all with strong O&D. Thus, UA has been able to support large hubs with a healthy mix of O&D and connecting traffic. However, this also works at a disadvantage for them as they have strong LCC competition at all of their hubs as well (whereas carriers like DL, NW, and US have been able to dominate smaller cities and keep the LCCs out).

UA also probably has the most hub-centric network of the legacies, similar to CO. The only places that could even be considered focus cities would be HNL, SEA, or PDX (and that is mainly because of frequency to the hubs and the odd-UAEx flights or flights to Japan, as opposed to other domestic markets).
 
Boston92
Topic Author
Posts: 2553
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 30):
HNL, SEA, or PDX

SJC can be added to that list too, I think.

EDIT-Actually nevermind... I originally thought that SJC had more point to point... but all they have is SBA... maybe I thought that because I live in SBA.

2nd edit was to add "EDIT" to first edit

[Edited 2007-06-29 19:12:14]

[Edited 2007-06-29 19:13:22]
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
airfrnt
Posts: 1992
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:44 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 30):

UA's strong point is that all of its hubs (with maybe the exception of DEN) are significant business and tourism markets, all with strong O&D. Thus, UA has been able to support large hubs with a healthy mix of O&D and connecting traffic. However, this also works at a disadvantage for them as they have strong LCC competition at all of their hubs as well (whereas carriers like DL, NW, and US have been able to dominate smaller cities and keep the LCCs out).

Have you actually looked at the number? Denver fliers have a higher propensity to fly then any market outside of Las Vegas. Do you know what the O&D numbers are? Here is a hint, DEN is having to build several new huge garages because O&D traffic is outstripping connection traffic easily.

DEN is ugly because WN and F9 are both building sizable operations there. WN with it's expansion will be larger then F9 was for several years at the airport. That's nothing to sneeze at competition wise.
 
moman
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:00 am

Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 5):
I disagree. It is very hard to live on the east coast and fly to another city on the east coast via AA. I once had a credit on them to use and had to fly PIT-DFW-MCO.

Why not go PIT-ORD-MCO or PIT-STL-MCO. You could have even went PIT-MIA-MCO, so going to DFW was certainly out of the way and an exception.

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 10):
Hub Cities that are closer together than DTW and MSP (528 miles)

ORD - STL gotta be about 350 miles

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 24):
Which is why Southerners are so loyal to Delta: We really don't have all that much of a choice.

1. Because Delta is the primary carrier in the SE US, a region known for brand loyalty. 2. DL spent the previous 10 years before 9/11 getting everyone and their brother drunk in the CRC with the liberal alcohol policy. I should be flying them out of my base because of the CRC (and lack of Admirals' Club).
AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
 
DiscoverCSG
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:04 am

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
Including regional flights (i.e. Skywest), United "owns" the airport.

At ORD, UA shares the airport with an AA hub.

At DEN, they compete with Frontier's main base.

At LAX, AA has a big base.

United "owns" a smaller traffic share at these hubs than most airlines:

AA shares ORD, and that's about it.

CO shares none of its hubs.

DL shares ATL with FL, but owns SLC and especially CVG.

NW rules each of its hubs with an iron fist.

US shares PHX and LAS with WN, but has PHL and especially CLT sewn up.

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 11):
I think if any airline is closest to getting it right, it's either Delta or the new US Airways.

Not hardly, IMHO. Neither airline has a hub between SLC and CVG. Try flying MSP-OKC on US, or MCI-SAT on DL, and see what kind of routes you get.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 32):
Denver fliers have a higher propensity to fly

Don't fliers have a 100% propensity to fly?
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1479
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):

1. I think all of them have very different tasks, and when combined, it is perfect.

SFO covers all intl travel from DEN west and connects flights that are wholly on the west
LAX has the regional/express flights covered for the west coast
DEN connects both the coasts for travelers terminating in central US
ORD connects, well, everything
IAD connects flights that originate and terminate on the east coast

On the other hand:

SFO: Horrible operational configuration. Extreme low-cost competition at OAK, and lot more coming at SFO. Two major airports in a region of only 4.1M people. With the exception of Trans-Pacific flying, a 270 degree hub....no west flow makes building a "hub" challenging.

LAX: Massive competition by more competent carriers. Extreme LCC presence. SFO diverts attention from Trans-Pac markets. No growth potential for UA. Another 270 degree hub.

DEN: Competing against a hometown LCC. WN growing very fast. Mid Continent location is good for East-West flows, but there are a lot of hobs that do that. There is nearly zero North-South flow because there are no people north or south of DEN. Nice infrastructure, but expensive.

ORD: Great hub as long as there is no weather. Which is virtually never. Absolutely no growth opportunities until the airfield is completely reconfigured (when?). Competing head-to-head with AA, a most ferocius competitor that does virtually everything better than UA. Not to mention the low-fare influence at MDW.

IAD: The stepchild airport of Washington. DCA gets the most lucrative traffic, and likely always will. UA has never been able to successfully grow at IAD. Limited presence in the NE makes IAD an also-ran.

Most importantly, no hub at all in the southern tier of the country, where growth is MUCH faster. UA has virtually no presence in the southern half of the country. That is way too big of a hole to overlook.

UA's hubs are not even remotely ideal. They just happen to be located in some big cities.
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:21 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 6):
This hub was rumored to be closed when UA went into bankruptcy. Aside from the European flights there is no other reason to have IAD as a hub.

United serves Kuwait City, Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, Buenos Aires, Peking, and Narita from IAD as well..

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 15):
I think UA has one of the stronger hub systems in the country

I have to agree to disagree on that note. United has a lopsided hub system

~West > Los Angeles and San Francisco

Los Angeles is facing more and more challenges more recently with the LAWA decision to have the EMB moved from T-8 to free up the gate space. United Airlines has ducked out of the Los Angeles to Melbourne, Auckland, and Paris markets. They dropped Hong Kong for a few years, and are going to attempt the route again later this year. Heathrow has seen a decrease in frequency. Narita has seen a decrease in frequency. The United Airlines domestic market from Los Angeles is not claiming the yields that is used to due to increased presence of Southwest Airlines and others in the market. United Airlines ended its Shuttle by United operation because their was so much money being lost in the market to the other airlines that were charging less than United.

San Francisco is the main point of international growth with United Airlines combined with Washington. IAD. San Francisco has seen growth in recent years to Nagoya. However at the same time United Airlines has seen Paris dropped from the San Francisco Network. Frankfurt and Hong Kong increased in frequency. Seoul and Taipei were both suspended and are now resumed/resuming service. The United Airlines domestic market again has been hit in the San Francisco market. As with Los Angeles the Shuttle by United operation was discontinued, and less and less frequencies are now flown to domestic destinations in the United States. United Airlines has vastly decreased capacity in the Trans-Con market, even Hawaii has seen a decrease in seats offered from United Airlines from the SFO hub.

Central > Denver and Chicago

Denver and its market share are starting to erode with the entrance of Southwest Airlines into the market, something that both United Airlines and Frontier did not want to happen. Since the entrance of Southwest Airlines into the Denver market yields have been driven down in a number of markets. It is only time before adds even more to the Denver network. Also you are seeing Denver without a United Airlines long-haul international service. Instead United Airlines has relied solely on Lufthansa for that. When United did fly Frankfurt from Denver it was a money losing fight.

Chicago is perhaps one of the jewels in the United Airlines network, yet it the number one delay prone hub in the system. The attitude of United Airlines employees at ORD has to be hands down the worst system wide. United Airlines however has seen only marginal growth in the Chicago market in recent years. Nothing of great impression or merit has been added to the Chicago hub. What I am beginning to worry about with the Chicago hub is United Airlines has again had domestic profits sink due to the increased WN presence at MDW. The international routes from ORD are no longer unique and are flown by other pre-existing United Airlines gateways. The one thing that ORD has is GRU, EZE, HKG, and KIX all are flights that no other airline in the market offers. But as can be seen all of those routes have been hit or miss in recent years. EZE, GRU were both suspended. GRU had equipment downgrades. HKG at one time had equipment downgrades, KIX still sees an equipment downgrade.

East > Washington D.C.

Washington D.C. is perhaps one of the more questionable hubs in the system, yet has become more and more important recently due to its addition of Kuwait, Peking, and Narita. I think in the short term United Airlines will retain decent returns on the IAD market, yet I do not feel the long-term will prove so well. United Airlines was going to put IAD on the chopping blick up until a few years ago in the market. If United was forced into dropping one of its hubs I would put my money on either Washington D.C. or Denver. Connecting wise Washington D.C. is a nightmare. As far as useful connections ORD has them 3 to 1 over IAD. I can see United pulling down to a focus operation at IAD for the long-term, I cannot see a suspension of service, but I cant see the Washington D.C. operation holding out in a merger of any kind. If a merger is forged with Continental the hub would be moved to EWR with a few token international routes to IAD. If a merger is forged with Delta the hub would be moved to JFK with a few token international routes to IAD.

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 18):
That is not a valid point... If SFO and ORD were UA's ONLY hubs, then it would be valid.

LAX is a United Airlines hub, as is SFO, it was a valid point..

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 18):
As for the south, I think UA should "re-invent" TED with WN in mind and make some sort of a [very]quick turnaround hub somewhere in the south

I dont think TED will be rearing its head to much longer. United Airlines is not committed enough to open a new hub on their own based on the TED or any other product. United Airlines wants a partner with an established hub in the South. United would be a fool to try an play footsie with Air Tran, as Delta is the 1000lb Gorilla in Atlanta. Spirit would be an interesting merger partner, yet FLL is maxed out in gates, and nothing much more could be added to make FLL a major hub for UAL. United cannot merge with NWA or the Japan routes would have to be thrown out, so Memphis is out of the picture. American and United merging is about as realistic as Singapore Airlines and Ryanair merging, so Miami is out of the picture. Orlando is not a high yielding O/D market, and their is a lot of brand loyalty in Orlando to Delta Air Lines. Charlotte is part of US Airways, yet United would be biting off a lot more than it could chew if they made a play for US, or US a play for them.

In the end you cant be everything to everyone, and I hope management at United Airlines realizes that before to long!

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
eva777sea
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:16 am

RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:42 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 32):
Have you actually looked at the number? Denver fliers have a higher propensity to fly then any market outside of Las Vegas. Do you know what the O&D numbers are? Here is a hint, DEN is having to build several new huge garages because O&D traffic is outstripping connection traffic easily.

Over 50% of the pax going through DEN are still connecting pax buddy. Business travel is not only people flying to other places on business from DEN but also people coming from other places to DEN on business. That is only half the story.
 
galapagapop
Posts: 861
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:15 pm

RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:44 am

They nailed thier hubs so well they are the most profitable major out there.............


Oh wait they don't make any money.  Wink
 
rwsea
Posts: 2422
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:23 pm

RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:55 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 32):
Have you actually looked at the number? Denver fliers have a higher propensity to fly then any market outside of Las Vegas. Do you know what the O&D numbers are? Here is a hint, DEN is having to build several new huge garages because O&D traffic is outstripping connection traffic easily.

DEN is ugly because WN and F9 are both building sizable operations there. WN with it's expansion will be larger then F9 was for several years at the airport. That's nothing to sneeze at competition wise.

Did you actually bother to read my post? I said "relatively smaller". DEN is still a big hub, and it's no SLC, CVG, MEM, or CLT. But is also isn't an ORD, DFW, DTW, etc. either. It's a moderately-sized city in a good location without many nearby airports, but it also doens't have the business or tourism base of those other cities.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4411
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting MoMan (Reply 33):
Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 10):
Hub Cities that are closer together than DTW and MSP (528 miles)

ORD - STL gotta be about 350 miles

PHL-CLT = 390nm, CLE-EWR = 351nm, and ATL-CVG = 324nm but the first two pairs of hubs aren't really competing for the same traffic flows. ATL and CVG perhaps are, since many of the small cities cut from CVG have been added to ATL.

Competition and self-diversion between hubs is more important than just proximity. I don't think proximity is important until you get a PHL-BWI (US) or CLT-ATL (EA) degree of coziness.
 
Boston92
Topic Author
Posts: 2553
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:56 am

RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:08 am

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 35):
Horrible operational configuration

Ridiculous statement

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 35):
there are no people north or south of DEN.

Even more ridiculous

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 35):
a most ferocius competitor that does virtually everything better than UA.

Probably, your most ridiculous statement

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 35):
Not to mention the low-fare influence at MDW

What does that have to do with UA's hub at ORD

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 35):
The stepchild airport of Washington. DCA gets the most lucrative traffic

Oh wait...Nevermind... that was your most ridiculous statement

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 35):
UA has never been able to successfully grow at IAD.

What are you talking about?? UA is [succesfully] growing at IAD now.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 35):
Limited presence in the NE makes IAD an also-ran.

Name some airports in the NE that UA does not serve that other majors do...

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 35):
where growth is MUCH faster.

I must disagree with that, and everything else you have said.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 35):
UA's hubs are not even remotely ideal.

You and Mr FLYGUY767 seems to be the only ones who think that...

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 36):
EMB moved from T-8 to free up the gate space.

That has NOTHING to do with anything about this thread topic.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 36):
United Airlines has ducked out of the Los Angeles to Melbourne, Auckland, and Paris markets.

United has PLENTY of codeshare flights with New Zealand from LAX, UA does not need there own service.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 36):
United Airlines employees at ORD has to be hands down the worst system wide.

How can you even say that... It does not matter if you travel to ORD all the time, you will never encounter more than maybe 10% of all the employees there. Plus, this is from your personal experiences, and you might have brought it on yourself, people are not rude/mean for no reason, from my experiences from real life and the show "Airline", it is usually always the pax fault as to why the employees are being rude.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 36):
If a merger is forged with Delta the hub would be moved to JFK with a few token international routes to IAD.

There is no way on earth...

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 36):
LAX is a United Airlines hub, as is SFO, it was a valid point..

Uhh, LAX and SFO are not UA's only hubs, NW's only hubs are MSP and DTW and they are very close...Memphis is right there too.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
crjflyer35
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:26 am

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 18):
As for the south, I think UA should "re-invent" TED with WN in mind and make some sort of a [very]quick turnaround hub somewhere in the south

*Cough* PHX *Cough*



Well not quite South, a little more to the South West then some may have been thinking. I think a big hurdle there would be a T-2 improvement....but, I agree with what was said above, I don't think TED is going to be lasting too much longer.
Ok, wait for the RJ to pass, cleared to push tail south Mike, and you're cleared to spin #2 in the push.
 
IADCA
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:34 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 36):
East > Washington D.C.

Washington D.C. is perhaps one of the more questionable hubs in the system, yet has become more and more important recently due to its addition of Kuwait, Peking, and Narita. I think in the short term United Airlines will retain decent returns on the IAD market, yet I do not feel the long-term will prove so well. United Airlines was going to put IAD on the chopping blick up until a few years ago in the market. If United was forced into dropping one of its hubs I would put my money on either Washington D.C. or Denver. Connecting wise Washington D.C. is a nightmare. As far as useful connections ORD has them 3 to 1 over IAD. I can see United pulling down to a focus operation at IAD for the long-term, I cannot see a suspension of service, but I cant see the Washington D.C. operation holding out in a merger of any kind. If a merger is forged with Continental the hub would be moved to EWR with a few token international routes to IAD. If a merger is forged with Delta the hub would be moved to JFK with a few token international routes to IAD.

IAD does have some advantages as a hub on the East Coast. Since it's positioned in the Mid-Atlantic, it means shorter flights up and down the seaboard. This is a decent compromise when compared to challenging DL or CO for an NYC hub and simultaneously challenging US or DL for a decent one in the Southeast. It's also one reason you see so many regional jet flights out of IAD; UA doesn't need to use 320s to cover flying up and down the coast because the flights are short and the hub is relatively uncongested, allowing increased frequencies as well. The second reason, of course, is that IAD's domestic O&D gets carved up by DCA; while this might abate somewhat with the Metro connection coming (allegedly in 2015...and let's not get off topic here, it's been discussed on several other threads recently), the effect is probably not as drastic as one might hope; unless the destination has a direct flight from IAD, it's still easier to fly out of DCA and connect down the line. Where the IAD operation has potential for growth that WILL be helped by Metro is in domestic non-stops outside the DCA 1250 perimeter.

Given the growing importance of IAD in the international operations of UA, I'd put it well ahead of Denver on the "chopping block" list. That said, of course it wouldn't survive a merger with DL; it's a compromise between the position of DL's two eastern hubs; however, any merged airline would be insane to pull too many international flights, especially if it meant moving them to ATL; IAD's best attribute is the international O&D.
 
willbdsp
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:15 am

RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:40 am

Didn't UA have a strong presence in MIA? Was that more of a focus city or just a lot of flights in and out of there?
 
COEI2007
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:33 am

RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:45 am

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
I think that UA without a doubt nailed it when choosing their five hubs.

I dont think any one of the big 5 have nailed it when choosing their hubs! They all have hubs that are good for one thing, and bad for another. All of the legacies are lacking in one area or another, but heck, if their was an airline that nailed it when choosing hubs, they'd be wiping the floor with connecting traffic!
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1479
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 41):
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 35):
Horrible operational configuration

Ridiculous statement

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 35):
there are no people north or south of DEN.

Even more ridiculous

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 35):
a most ferocius competitor that does virtually everything better than UA.

Probably, your most ridiculous statement

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 35):
Not to mention the low-fare influence at MDW

What does that have to do with UA's hub at ORD

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 35):
The stepchild airport of Washington. DCA gets the most lucrative traffic

Oh wait...Nevermind... that was your most ridiculous statement

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 35):
UA has never been able to successfully grow at IAD.

What are you talking about?? UA is [succesfully] growing at IAD now.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 35):
Limited presence in the NE makes IAD an also-ran.

Name some airports in the NE that UA does not serve that other majors do...

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 35):
where growth is MUCH faster.

I must disagree with that, and everything else you have said.

Not surprising, given that you think this is an important factor:

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):

3. All the hubs are at airports that I do not mind going to. All airports are beautiful and are very nice to go and visit.
 
Boston92
Topic Author
Posts: 2553
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:56 am

RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:29 am

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 46):
Not surprising, given that you think this is an important factor:

You have not made one point that makes sense. And yes, I do think that how the airport looks is a VERY important factor when airline's choose hubs. That is common sense. Who is gonna choose some shit-hole airport as a hub and expect pax to fly them.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 1698
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

RE: Has UA Mastered The "Hub"?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:54 am

Well, I find it interesting that no one has mentioned the lack of a NY area hub or focus city.

IAD is a powerful hub/gateway for UA. Def in top three in profitability for UA. UA would drop DEN before they dropped IAD.

As far as not having a hub in the South goes, I don't really see the big deal. You can't cover every geographical area, that's why you codeshare with US.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them