thirteenright
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JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:58 am

It doesnt really seem like JetBlue's fault per say, just a bad WX related situation.

Full Story: http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=local&id=5432598

150 passengers trapped on JetBlue 'flight from hell'

A JetBlue flight took off from Fort Lauderdale, headed to JFK, Wednesday night at 5 p.m. It was supposed to be a three hour flight. It arrived at Kennedy at 3:15 p.m. Thursday.
The scene inside the plane was not pretty, as passengers were diverted to Atlantic City. And they were not allowed off.

Eyewitness News reporter NJ Burkett has an Eyewitness News exclusive.

One hundred and fifty people, children and elderly among them, were diverted to Atlantic City and then stranded there for hours. Yes, they are happy to be home. But they are not at all happy about what they went through.

The passengers of Flight 62 arrived at JFK Airport 22 hours after they left Fort Lauderdale.
 
pilotdude09
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:06 am

Well since its the USA there will be several lawsuits?

But its not Jet Blues fault, seems they done what they could with busses and hotels etc, and if there isnt gate space theres nothing that can be done about it.

B6 is giving them pretty good compensation for what they went through as well.
Qantas, Still calling Australia Home.........
 
JBLUA320
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:09 am

It never ends, no airline is safe from this media bull! The risk of bad weather and incidents like these are so widespread in the media it should hardly be surprising to anyone. Don't like it? Drive.
 
OB1504
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:15 am

I still find it odd that the passengers weren't allowed to deplane. At the very least, they had DirecTV with which to enterain themselves.

Anyone notice that this is becoming an almost-weekly occurence? It's making me fearful of flying into the New York area.
 
JBLUA320
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:18 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 3):
I still find it odd that the passengers weren't allowed to deplane. At the very least, they had DirecTV with which to enterain themselves.

Anyone notice that this is becoming an almost-weekly occurence? It's making me fearful of flying into the New York area.

There was no gate. None of these incidents are "new" to the NE or any region-- it happens everywhere. I guess it was just another slow news day...
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:19 am

Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 1):
B6 is giving them pretty good compensation for what they went through as well.



Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 1):
seems they done what they could with busses and hotels etc

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

This really does put JetBlue ahead of other US airlines. They could have acted like other airlines and trapped people on the plane for hours and hours. They could have stranded the passengers and cancelled the flight. Instead JetBlue took a very "outside of the box" approach to the matter, by US standards. It is great to see Customer Service is still a standard at the very least at one US airline. JetBlue learned a lot from the happening in February. Kudos to JetBlue for professional handling of this matter!

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
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mariner
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:23 am

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 2):
It never ends, no airline is safe from this media bull!

You're saying it didn't happen?

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
pitops
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:27 am

A jetBlue flight was on the tarmac for a couple hours at PIT last evening too. Noone was talking about it.
Ground Ops, Southwest Airlines, CMH
 
JBLUA320
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:29 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 6):
You're saying it didn't happen?

Oh no, not at all. But if you read the article about the "flight from hell" it is just amazing what media sensationalism adds to a story.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:36 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 3):
Anyone notice that this is becoming an almost-weekly occurrence? It's making me fearful of flying into the New York area.

It's because of the over-reporting on the previous 8+ hour AA/AUS and B6/JFK deals, and the resulting retroactive conclusion that seems to be increasingly prevalent that any delay is unacceptable, irrespective of how legitimate the weather and ATC causes are. It's nuts. It's also been a wetter spring and summer, so that's another reason you're seeing the NYC/DC/Chicago areas (all high-density traffic areas) get hammered.

In a perfect world, there'd be no delays, but it ain't a perfect world. People need to be able to differentiate between the "normal" 2-4 hour delays when the weather gets AFU and the 8+ ones (the latter of which are completely unacceptable and shouldn't happen).
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
flyinryan99
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:41 am

I have yet to hear anything about NW 12 that diverted to TOL yesterday and sat on the ground 1 hour due to wx and fueling....The media is terrible in just about anything...blow everything out of proportion.
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:46 am

Quoting PITops (Reply 7):
A jetBlue flight was on the tarmac for a couple hours at PIT last evening too. Noone was talking about it.

It is probably because JetBlue treats their passengers more like guests than numbers.. The way the people were treated on the ComAir and ShuttleAmerica delays was truly inexcusable. If it weren't for the videos ComAir and ShuttleAmerica would have dismissed the poor treatment of passengers as hear say.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
exFATboy
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:56 am

Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 1):
and if there isnt gate space theres nothing that can be done about it.

Well, yes, there is...they're called "mobile stairs." As long as there isn't a thunderstorm in progress, you don't need a gate to take passengers off a plane.

I do have to question the decision to divert to ACY, though - they've pretty much rolled up the sidewalks by 9 PM. Could be ACY was the only place available, I guess.

On the other hand, there's a hell of a lot of bitching and whining going on here - "My kids are traumatized," passenger Aron Schiffenbauer said. "My son is traumatized. He's been vomiting. He doesn't have any clothes to wear and he's been vomiting the whole time since last night." Unless there's some extra factor that isn't in the report - like, say, the air conditioning was out, or they'd gone several hours without water - I don't see how sitting in a damn seat can be "traumatizing." Frustrating, tiring, boring, exhausting? Sure. But "traumatizing" to the point where the kid was throwing up, even well after he got off the plane? Either the kid has a medical condition, perhaps an undiagnosed one, or he's just a wimp.

(And it doesn't kill you to wear the same clothes for that long. Jeez. Some people are a little sheltered, eh?)

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 3):
Anyone notice that this is becoming an almost-weekly occurance?

True, but some cases are understandable - this was weather, combined with a crew timing out. Maybe JetBlue should have scrubbed the flight? Can't really say...sometimes it's a tight call, and all you can do is perhaps load some extra drinks and snacks and hope for the best.

Sometimes it is the airline's fault - the Comair case where passengers were vomiting probably should have been cancelled...normally, you can go with the A/C out of service, the plane will cool off somewhat once you're at cruising altitude. I've been on a few flights over the years that had no A/C. But with the heat and humidity of that day, combined with the near-statistical certainty of major delays, it was probably a bad decision.

I do think that airports and airlines need to develop better contingency plans to pull passengers off airplanes when delays get to the point where the flight's obviously not going to go, or has arrived at its destination, especially if they get to the point where there's no drinking water and/or no toilets. Having a couple of mobile stairs and a few buses in reserve is not very expensive, although people would still have to wait if there's a thunderstorm over the airport. The "there's no gates available" excuse wears thin, especially when we're taking about a plane that has actually arrived at its desination - passengers got on and off planes long before jetways, and baggage can always be sorted out later.

Having said that, I do completely disagree with the "bill of rights" proposals floating around that would set hard time deadlines for when a departing flight has to come back in. As long as there's a reasonable chance that the flight will go before the crew times out, and the passengers have drinking water and working toilets, the airline needs the flexibility of keeping the plane loaded and ready to go.
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:16 pm

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 3):
It's making me fearful of flying into the New York area.

Take a red-eye to New York, and leave NY in the morning on the way back.

Who was the user who said his co-workers cancelled their DL tickets after seeing the Shuttle America video and booked on B6? Are they now cancelling the B6 tickets and flying AA?  laughing 
I love ASO!
 
denplanenut
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:18 pm

Mother Nature is at it again! My mother was supposed to have boarded B6 flight 511 EWR-FLL around 5pm today(June 28), but weather has forced a delay...as of 11pm ET., estimated departure is at 12:06AM! She is taking this flight travel personally since the last time she tried to go anywhere she spent the entire day at PHL and ended up cancelling her trip altogether, due to last winter storms before Christmas.

There is not much she can do at this point except sit and wait. Sad
 
pitops
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:42 pm

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 12):
I do think that airports and airlines need to develop better contingency plans to pull passengers off airplanes when delays get to the point where the flight's obviously not going to go, or has arrived at its destination, especially if they get to the point where there's no drinking water and/or no toilets. Having a couple of mobile stairs and a few buses in reserve is not very expensive, although people would still have to wait if there's a thunderstorm over the airport. The "there's no gates available" excuse wears thin, especially when we're taking about a plane that has actually arrived at its desination - passengers got on and off planes long before jetways, and baggage can always be sorted out later.

We have plenty of stairs and buses at PIT but then again we have plenty of empty gates for planes to use!
Ground Ops, Southwest Airlines, CMH
 
OB1504
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:57 pm

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 4):
There was no gate. None of these incidents are "new" to the NE or any region-- it happens everywhere. I guess it was just another slow news day...

You would think that ACY would be able to find an empty gate or a stairs truck after five or six hours.

What I meant by my previous post was... if this is such a routine occurrence, why have the media never cared until now? And, if things are really that bad, why did it take them so long to?
 
CaptainJon
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:04 pm

Why wouldn't they allow pax off the jet and have an airport bus take them to the gate? That way I could just hire a car and drive myself home, come back next day to pick up my luggage, gamble, and go back home...
 
JBLUA320
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:07 pm

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 16):
You would think that ACY would be able to find an empty gate or a stairs truck after five or six hours.

I agree with you-- it's definitely curious. If the crew thought they were going to get a departure slot within their hours, maybe they didn't want to risk deplaning. That wouldn't explain the "no gate" excuse, but I'm sure there is far more to the story than what the news will report.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 16):
What I meant by my previous post was... if this is such a routine occurrence, why have the media never cared until now? And, if things are really that bad, why did it take them so long to?

Given that our media likes to capitalize on misery, I think once they realized how volatile these stories were, they went seeking them out! In and of itself, these events are not routine. But the way the media has been tackling them, they will certainly appear that way more often.

JBLU
 
JBLUA320
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:09 pm

Rereading the story... they were on the plane waiting for a gate for 3 1/2 hours. The remainder of their wait was for transportation to the hotels, spent in the terminal.
 
stealth777
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:18 pm

not really tied in with this story but its in regards to B6 ops from SFO. All I can say from what I have witnessed is the flights never, ever leave SFO as scheduled (of course I only speak of the times I was spotting at the airport). The flight this morning (28Jun) had a 40 min wait on Txy Lima. It was long enough that the tower told them to hold short of Mike and shut her down.

I know the weather plays a part in all this but, I think I've only noticed it depart once on-time.

Yes there is several variables that play into part of this, but does it seem that B6 gets more news time ever since their meltdown in Feb?

just my observation.

-Stealth
 
flyiguy
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:45 pm

Here at IAD last night combining all the airlines together there was a total of 27 diversion into the airport which 90 percent of the flights were headed to the newyork and philadelphia area airports...not a big surprise seeing the weather in the NE was terrible.
The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
 
travatl
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:58 pm

NO - to all of this in general.

I've worked for airlines for 17 years. After years of defending "operational decisions", these ridiculous circumstances are no longer excusable.

This is the result of running operations to their very limits - with no grasp of cause and effect AND effectual case. The powers that be just assume that this can be remedied in A+B... not anymore. Before the plane went to Atlantic City, where was a duty manager calling ACY about ground facilities? Where was a crew router saying "look we're at zero minus 'x' duty hours for this crew".

"We called 45 bus companies that night". Yeah - and they started calling them when that was the only option (trust me, I know how this shit goes down). I AM NOT saying this is a jetBlue problem - this is how this industry works now, and I'm embarassed to be a part of it.

The mgmt gets wealthier and the employees are expected to fix problems that require more staff, better facilities, better training, and better tools.
 
CaptainJon
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:05 pm

Didn't B6 say something like this won't happen again? Granted 3 hours isn't 7+ hours, but what prevented them from being deplaned elsewhere? Or divert to an airport that can handle them, EWR, PHL...
 
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mariner
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:17 pm

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 8):
But if you read the article about the "flight from hell" it is just amazing what media sensationalism adds to a story.

"flight from hell" may be a bit over the top, but it is still a fairly newsworthy story, and it's a grim picture.

I suppose the part that bothers me is that there seems to be so little concern - voiced here - for the passengers, that somehow they should expect this.

Yes, weather can be a problem, and yes, people should sometimes expect delays.

And sure, I've had a few long delays flying to or from faraway places with strange sounding names, but what happened here on a domestic flight seems - well, newsworthy, at least.

The Comair story or the Shuttle America story may be worse, but that doesn't excuse any of 'em.



mariner
aeternum nauta
 
travatl
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:37 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 24):
The Comair story or the Shuttle America story may be worse, but that doesn't excuse any of 'em.

Precisely.

Why do we have to finger point to the most ludicrous circumstance, when all of it is unacceptable?
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:44 pm

Quoting CaptainJon (Reply 23):
Didn't B6 say something like this won't happen again? Granted 3 hours isn't 7+ hours, but what prevented them from being deplaned elsewhere? Or divert to an airport that can handle them, EWR, PHL...

3.5 hours to be deplaned is more acceptable than 7 hours. What prevented them from being deplaned? The fact that the tarmac was closed, so no planes could have been moved to allow the JetBlue plane in. No other airport would have been able to handle them either; EWR and PHL were just as bad if not worse than JFK.

To me this news story is ridiculous. JetBlue simply cannot control the weather, and if you're flying to NYC in a thunderstorm, expect to be severely inconvenienced. It may suck, but it's reality. Between FAA regulations, terrible weather, and ATC flow problems in the Northeast, the airlines are no longer to blame.

IMO, of course.

JetBluefan1
 
JBLUA320
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:45 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 24):

The Comair story or the Shuttle America story may be worse, but that doesn't excuse any of 'em.

I agree with you, and don't think I ever suggested otherwise, or that any of this was excusable, so I'm not sure why you believe I did. I DO think the media shares a huge responsibility in the national feeling toward incidents like these. However, in a system that is pushed to the max because of a consumer demand for frequency, these things are going to happen. There is a great concern for passengers health and safety-- it's number one. But in times like these, and in this day in age, I wonder if "health risks" are merely an opportunity to sue and make a quick buck, or otherwise. I think there needs to be a finer line drawn (and understood) between what is and is not a reasonable expectation in this air system. I don't think you should ever EXPECT to divert, and have to sit for 3 hours on the plane waiting for a gate (not to mention waiting 3 more hours for transportation to hotels)... but I also don't think anyone can say they are "traumatized" when it DOES happen.

Quoting Travatl (Reply 22):

Before the plane went to Atlantic City, where was a duty manager calling ACY about ground facilities? Where was a crew router saying "look we're at zero minus 'x' duty hours for this crew".

I don't mean to question your years of experience and knowledge of this industry, because you certainly know much more than myself, an 18 year old just starting out in the industry now. However, what makes you so sure that none of these actions were taken?

Whether or not these events are newsworthy is a matter of personal opinion. But "newsworthy" doesn't automatically make airlines deserving of the abuse they receive in the media. "Flight from hell" and "traumatized" by a weather induced diversion seems over the top to me. Were those passengers on the Shuttle America flight to DFW put at a health risk? Sure, 7 hours is a long time to be on a plane with no food or water, and that is a situation that certainly deserves some attention. However, 3 hours on the ground and 3 in the airport is, in and of itself, not so uncommon in today's congested system.

I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts on paper. I guess while no party here is necessarily in the "right", I don't think any one party is also in "the wrong" -- hopefully someone gets what I'm saying, even if they disagree.

JBLU
 
CaptainJon
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:46 pm

Isn't this a little over the top?

"My kids are traumatized," passenger Aron Schiffenbauer said. "My son is traumatized. He's been vomiting. He doesn't have any clothes to wear and he's been vomiting the whole time since last night."

I'm sure their situation is simply awful, but I find this to be an exaggeration. The article doesn't state his kids ages, but I dunno I am sure he was clothed when he left the plane so he is just throwing up all over the place naked?


... lame joke i know .. but traumatized from what? It's no worse for a kid than sitting in a car during a long trip so I think they are making this like it's the worst thing possible.
 
UAL-Fan
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:06 pm

TravATL,

I do agree. The industry is just coming apart at the seams. I fly weekly for business and I am traumatized every time I set foot in an Airport.

Just came in from DEN - SAN after sitting on a Frontier plane on the tarmac for two hours. Your right, it's how it works today. If I didn't have to fly I wouldn't go anywher near it.
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:09 pm

Quoting CaptainJon (Reply 28):
Isn't this a little over the top?

"My kids are traumatized," passenger Aron Schiffenbauer said. "My son is traumatized. He's been vomiting. He doesn't have any clothes to wear and he's been vomiting the whole time since last night."

I'm sure their situation is simply awful, but I find this to be an exaggeration. The article doesn't state his kids ages, but I dunno I am sure he was clothed when he left the plane so he is just throwing up all over the place naked?


... lame joke i know .. but traumatized from what? It's no worse for a kid than sitting in a car during a long trip so I think they are making this like it's the worst thing possible.

I completely agree. But people love to bitch and moan. This is the media. Honestly, I really can't stand it anymore.

JetBluefan1
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:14 pm

Quoting JetBluefan1 (Reply 26):
Between FAA regulations, terrible weather, and ATC flow problems in the Northeast, the airlines are no longer to blame.

You may be able to blame them for scheduling too many flights to that area, but it is a major population center, and they would be dumb not to. I wonder if flights could be scheduled in a non-bank sort of way where pax could experience 3 hour layovers, but the departures and arrivals would be spread over a long time to decrease delays. If B6 and DL did this with all their flights, connection and mainline, could it make a difference? I agree that airlines have very little control.

When westward departures are closed though due to storms, most flights can go nowhere. Nothing will ever fix that, and that's life.

[Edited 2007-06-29 08:15:27]
I love ASO!
 
jc2354
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:19 pm

I can assure you, that if David Neeleman or one of the other "uppity ups" from JetBlue had been onboard, a gate or a set of airstairs would have magically appeared a lot sooner. I've never understood why an airline will divert to an airport it doesn't serve, unless it's an emergency or there is no other alternative. In the JFK area, JetBlue serves LaGuardia, Newark, Newburgh, or White Plains. With a little more planning, and maybe a little more fuel, they could have used Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, even Pittsurgh or Columbus as alternates. The blame here is on JetBlue, particularly the Dispatcher who planned this flight, and the Pilot who accepted it. In my years in the left seat, I never accepted a flight plan with an alternate to an offline city, when there was an online airport available.

What's the old saying about, "it's a little late to worry about the crocodiles after you've drained the swamp"
If not now, then when?
 
ikramerica
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting UAL-Fan (Reply 29):
TravATL, I do agree. The industry is just coming apart at the seams. I fly weekly for business and I am traumatized every time I set foot in an Airport. Just came in from DEN - SAN after sitting on a Frontier plane on the tarmac for two hours. Your right, it's how it works today. If I didn't have to fly I wouldn't go anywher near it

It's not new. I don't know why people have such short memories, but it's not new.

I've been stuck on jets for hours in the 80s, the 90s, and 2000s, all due to weather.

Leave the "trauma" for traumatic experiences.

3 different times in the 80s I was on a plane that accelerated for take off and then aborted for mechanical problems, twice on the same flight.

I've been on a touch and go at LGA when we landed too long and didn't want to crash into the river.

And recently, I was on a 757 when an engine went out.

All of those are more traumatic than a weather delay.

But that doesn't mean airlines should keep this policy of pax stuck on planes for hours. Unless the ramp is closed due to lightening, there should be a set time limit. The question is "how long is too long?" But I know for damn sure that 3.5 hours is not acceptable any more than 7 hours is.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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mariner
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:50 pm

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 27):
I agree with you, and don't think I ever suggested otherwise, or that any of this was excusable, so I'm not sure why you believe I did.

If I am mistaken, I apologize, but your immediate response was to blame the media, apparently for reporting the event:

Quoting JBLUA320 (Reply 2):
It never ends, no airline is safe from this media bull!

And you will note that I did ask you if you thought this story was not true.

If it is true, the media did not cause this event to happen, the media reported it when it did, so I don't understand how this is "media bull".

Nor do I think the media is particularly harsh on airlines. The appalling NWA cancellations were discussed here for some days before a hint of them appeared in any of the press.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
nkops
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:13 pm

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 12):
I do have to question the decision to divert to ACY, though - they've pretty much rolled up the sidewalks by 9 PM. Could be ACY was the only place available, I guess.

Actually, B6 diverts here a lot... they have a contract with the fuelers here, and I believe they use ACY so they can get in and out pretty quick (usually). Unfortunately this night, we had 8 or 9 diversions along with the typical 4 RON's on NK and ASA, and we only have 6 gates.

We do have airstairs in ACY, so I do not know what prevented them from de-planing since we (NK) do not handle them.
:evil:
 
ADXMatt
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RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:30 pm

Quoting Jc2354 (Reply 32):
I've never understood why an airline will divert to an airport it doesn't serve, unless it's an emergency or there is no other alternative. In the JFK area, JetBlue serves LaGuardia, Newark, Newburgh, or White Plains. With a little more planning, and maybe a little more fuel, they could have used Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, even Pittsurgh or Columbus as alternates. The blame here is on JetBlue, particularly the Dispatcher who planned this flight, and the Pilot who accepted it.

I'm sorry JC2354 but your posting is a little bit arrogant. The article doesn't go into enough detail to make the above comments and putting the blame on the dispatcher.

If you have flown left seat for a scheduled carrier, and I'm not doubting that you have, you know that the dispatch release is a plan. You don't know how much fuel was on the aircraft, what his original alternate was and how long the plane was in the air. Comming from FLL to JFK having PIT/SWF/HPN/LGA as alternates does not always make sense. 1 LGA has a hard closure at night. 2 the way the storms were could you get through the wx to get to those alternates? How do you know they didn't have CMH originally and changed it enroute so that they could hold longer and maybe get into JFK?

Diverting into any airport unplanned at night with everyone else diverting too you sometimes have to wait for service. When was the last time you tried to book 100+ hotel rooms and arrange transportation at night for immediate use? It takes time to get done. Plus I'm sure this wasn't B6's only diversion of the night.

What is traumatizing about sitting in a perfectly good airplane for a few hours? Yes it would be nice to be on your way, yes it is boring, but in no way was anyones safety in danger.

Yes, if Neeleman was onboard the flight would have gotten into JFK and would not have diverted. Another B6 flight would have their slot taken.
 
spacecadet
Posts: 2789
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:52 pm

It never ceases to amaze me how many airline apologists we have around here. The site is called airliners.net, not airlines.net. There's no rule that says you have to love the airlines here no matter how badly or how many times they screw up.

Couple questions for you guys:

a) Why does this seem to happen with so much more frequency in the United States than other countries? What have their airlines figured out that ours haven't? (And don't tell me it's because our airports are busier or our weather worse - you fly to Haneda in a typhoon and tell me that.)

b) Do none of you have jobs, weddings, other plans to get to after you get off a plane? What kind of life do you lead that it's perfectly acceptable to you to be sitting on a tarmac for six hours or more?

Some of you act as if deboarding a plane is some sort of dangerous experimental activity that's to be discouraged at all costs and if it is done at all, has to be done (reluctantly, gingerly) at a gate. It doesn't strike me as rocket science to park the plane at a remote stand and wheel up a set of stairs. Hell, that's how most flights used to be deboarded. I'm sure a lot of you kids today have never deboarded a plane this way, but it's still standard procedure in a lot of countries (including advanced countries like Japan - remote boarding and deboarding is common at Narita and other airports).

Planes have doors. The purpose of these doors is to let people get on and off. All that's missing is something to transport passengers the 15 feet from the door to the ground. This is not difficult.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3362
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:27 pm

The fact that this happens a lot in the USA does not make it acceptable.
Once the crew had decided that they were not going to take off again for NYC, then the passengers should have got off into the terminal. I must admit from the facts presented it seems a bit silly diverting to an off-line station where you have no ground crew, but perhaps they held too long and were short of fuel.
Some points
1. Are all gates in the USA owned by airlines? If so how could Jetblue expect a gate at Atlantic City?
2. Is there any reason why steps cannot be used? I read here somewhere that the TSA does not allow it. If so, its about time they did!
3. I thought Atlantic City was close to NYC. I saw Seinfeld drive there once! Is there no public transportation? If this happened in Europe, all the pax would be put on the train!
4. If jetblue divert there all the time, perhaps they should employ a handling company to look after them.

The problem is that you have a lot of bad 'pax trapped on aircraft ' stories, and you think this is not as bad as some. But really it is not acceptable.
 
flightopsguy
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:51 am

RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:01 pm

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 36):
f you have flown left seat for a scheduled carrier, and I'm not doubting that you have, you know that the dispatch release is a plan. You don't know how much fuel was on the aircraft, what his original alternate was and how long the plane was in the air. Comming from FLL to JFK having PIT/SWF/HPN/LGA as alternates does not always make sense. 1 LGA has a hard closure at night. 2 the way the storms were could you get through the wx to get to those alternates? How do you know they didn't have CMH originally and changed it enroute so that they could hold longer and maybe get into JFK?

All of this is certainly possible, but dispatchers are routinely taught to actually look at the weather from more than a legal 121 perspective. That is, what would be best for the flight if there is a high probability of diverting? Off-line diverts are always tricky...We had a divert many years ago to PHL (which we did not serve at the time) and had no fuel contract. The fuel bill was paid by a corporate manager with his credit card who just happened to be on the flight. Our fuel contracts guy had "breakfast with the boss" the next morning which caused him to quickly review the fueling arrangements at all our approved off-line alternates. Large amounts of contigency/holding/alternate fuel are tricky on the 320, as the structural landing weights (I do not know what JBU bought for a landing weight) are comparatively low given the excellent specific range of the aircraft. Choosing to "shorten up" an alternate to create more holding fuel is a decision that needs to be carefully thought out by the PIC and dispatcher, especially during these massive weather impacts.
A300-330 BAC111/146/J31/41 B99/1900 CV580 B707-777 DC8/9/10 L188/1011 FH227/28/100 SB340 DO228 EMB2/170 CR2-900 SH330-60
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:22 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 9):
any delay is unacceptable

Any delay where passengers are kept on board an aircraft that is clearly going nowhere, is unacceptible. Push some steps up, pull up a bus, and get them to the terminal. Screw the TSA and their stupid rules, what are they going to do anyway ? It's about people, and customer service. If the flight diverts, don't just abandon the passengers, you sort them out the best way you can, either by turning the plane round and getting going, or if that isn't going to happen in a reasonable time, say a period equivalent to the planned duration of the original flight, you take them off and you make other arrangements.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
mcdu
Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:35 pm

This issue of ground delays, diverts and various other problems with airports is more than just one issue. However, in my opinion, and we all have one, it can be laid at the hands of the DOT and FAA to a great degree. The population in these areas with the most delays has increased significantly, along with that a huge demand in airtravel post deregulation. Just look at the number of airframes produced and airplanes flying in the US since 1978. There was obviously a demand and a need for the increased flights. However, the DOT and FAA have done little to improve airport capacity since that time.

At ORD they are just now constructing new runways to alleviate the traffic issues they currently have. There are no new runways planned in the NYC area or PHL. IAD is adressing some of the issues there with a new runway but this is all almost 30 years since deregulation. Where is the new pavement and FAA ATC infrastructure to accomodate the traffic growth.

It seems the guys over in the dungeon at the EDS building at IAD are far to too quick to administer a ground stop for areas that are not even getting weather. For a period yesterday IAD was on a Ground Stop when there was no weather affecting any of the arrivals or departure fixes. Of course IAD ATC is not known for its talent.
 
JBLUA320
Posts: 2997
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 8:51 am

RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:48 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 34):
If I am mistaken, I apologize, but your immediate response was to blame the media, apparently for reporting the event:

I blame the media for making it a regular occurrance in American society. As has been stated above, these things have been happening for years and years, but only make big headlines now because the media knows they'll get a rise out of readers and viewers.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 34):
And you will note that I did ask you if you thought this story was not true.

And I replied above saying that that was never my intention to suggest it didn't happen.


I don't mean or want to be at odds with anyone over an opinion. I'll just back off this thread and watch from the sidelines... I'm having a hard time charting my thoughts on this clearly.

[Edited 2007-06-29 16:07:01]
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:44 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 40):
Any delay where passengers are kept on board an aircraft that is clearly going nowhere, is unacceptable.

A big problem with this simplistic statement in real life (airline operations life, that is) is "clearly" is seldom that way at the time, just like "simple" often isn't.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 40):
Push some steps up, pull up a bus, and get them to the terminal.

..and each airport operating entity has a fleet of stairs and buses immediately available to simultaneously handle multiple diversions, right? If they only have a couple, that means the passengers are going to have to wait their turn for the stairs/buses in use on other flights, or is that delay unacceptable as well?

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 40):
Screw the TSA and their stupid rules, what are they going to do anyway ?

Yes, an absolutely great idea--let's give TSA an excuse to completely dump a terminal or two full of passengers and delay them an additional 2-3 hours as they re-screen everybody...  Yeah sure

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 40):
If the flight diverts, don't just abandon the passengers, you sort them out the best way you can, either by turning the plane round and getting going, or if that isn't going to happen in a reasonable time, say a period equivalent to the planned duration of the original flight, you take them off and you make other arrangements.

If the aircraft that diverted to ACY had ferried out empty to somewhere else, then they would have been abandoned. They weren't "abandoned" just because they were sitting on the aircraft there in ACY awaiting a gate--other flights from other airlines were undoubtedly in much the same boat--everyone has to wait, for an open gate, for the weather to improve, and for ATC to have room in the NAS for you. Since the airline didn't serve ACY, exact which personnel were to make these "other" arrangements? Was the airline supposed to beam-in some CSAs from other airports?

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 41):
It seems the guys over in the dungeon at the EDS building at IAD are far to too quick to administer a ground stop for areas that are not even getting weather. For a period yesterday IAD was on a Ground Stop when there was no weather affecting any of the arrivals or departure fixes. Of course IAD ATC is not known for its talent.

If you're referring to ATCSCC, they're off-airport, but still near IAD. If you're referring to GDPs "for areas not even getting weather", it sounds like you're referring to AFPs, the use of which has been expanded this year over last. What you can't see from your cockpit is that ATCSCC (not IAD ATC or Potomac TRACON) has the responsibility for coordinating between the various ARTCCs, and not allowing various situations to occur such as individual sector saturation within the ARTCCs, or feeding a facility more traffic than their AAR can handle. Sure, airborne holding does exist, but depending upon the weather, stacks may not be available where they're needed, if at all. Yeah, they're "too quick" to put in a GDP (if you're personally going to be delayed by it), but if you didn't have that personal emotional involvement, you might be able to look at it more objectively.

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 37):
It never ceases to amaze me how many airline apologists we have around here. The site is called airliners.net, not airlines.net. There's no rule that says you have to love the airlines here no matter how badly or how many times they screw up.

I don't think anyone has stated their expectations that anyone had to "love" the airlines, nor is any/every delay automatically attributable to some kind of screw-up. Various internal airline folks (myself included) who work the problem(s) from that end have endeavored to educate here, but then again, I guess that anything that we say that differs from what the "expert" outsiders "know" constitutes all of us being "apologists"...  Yeah sure

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 37):
b) Do none of you have jobs, weddings, other plans to get to after you get off a plane? What kind of life do you lead that it's perfectly acceptable to you to be sitting on a tarmac for six hours or more?

Sure we do, but that's purely an emotional consideration, and one that has no place in objective operational decision-making. While you may going to a wedding immediately after you arrive, there are others on that same flight who are not, and they expect the pilots and everyone else involved to do their jobs properly and professionally and not put the passengers at risk. If the visibility is RVR 1600 and you need 1800 to shoot the approach, should a flightcrew bust minimums and land just so you can make your wedding? If the braking action is NIL, should they land anyway? The point I'm making is that one can't let emotionalism and self-induced pressures creep into operational decision-making.

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 37):
Some of you act as if deboarding a plane is some sort of dangerous experimental activity that's to be discouraged at all costs and if it is done at all, has to be done (reluctantly, gingerly) at a gate. It doesn't strike me as rocket science to park the plane at a remote stand and wheel up a set of stairs.

Not experimental, but dangerous in some situations such as wet or wintry weather, assuming, again, that sufficient quantities of stairs/buses are even available. Should someone slip and tumble down the stairs (taking some other passengers below them out in the process), you can bet there will be some immediate claims by the "experts" that "the airline shouldn't have tried to use external stairs under those conditions" not to mention filing lawsuits. Ditto if someone slips and falls on the oil/glycol inherent on many ramp surfaces that are wet or slushy, or God forbid, a little kid gets run over by a baggage tug.

I guess I'm being an "apologist" for mentioning all these things... Sorry...  Yeah sure

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
JetJock22
Posts: 612
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:22 am

Quoting CaptainJon (Reply 23):
Or divert to an airport that can handle them, EWR, PHL...

Did you not see the weather the other night?????????? Flights that were scheduled to those airports couldn't make it there, let alone someone diverting there.
 
N62NA
Posts: 4006
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:22 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 3):
Anyone notice that this is becoming an almost-weekly occurence? It's making me fearful of flying into the New York area.

I fly into the NYC area a few times a year. I used to fly up from MIA in the evening, do business the next day and catch one of the 6pm flights back to MIA. Not anymore.

Because of the major congestion problems (even on a clear day in NYC) in the afternoons/evenings, I now fly up to JFK (not EWR anymore) on the AA 12 noon flight, scheduled arrival at JFK 3:30pm (usually later, though). So... I end up losing an entire day of work on my trip up to NYC.

Then, I take the morning flight back from EWR to MIA (leaves around 10:45am) and almost always on time. Of course, this means I have to spend an extra $300 or so on hotel for that extra night, AND I lose ANOTHER day of work back in MIA. But this has allowed me to keep my sanity!

Quoting Travatl (Reply 22):
This is the result of running operations to their very limits - with no grasp of cause and effect AND effectual case. The powers that be just assume that this can be remedied in A+B... not anymore. Before the plane went to Atlantic City, where was a duty manager calling ACY about ground facilities? Where was a crew router saying "look we're at zero minus 'x' duty hours for this crew".

Good points.

Quoting UAL-Fan (Reply 29):
I do agree. The industry is just coming apart at the seams. I fly weekly for business and I am traumatized every time I set foot in an Airport.

I had a post here in Civil Aviation last night, "The Sorry State of the Aviation System in the USA" but overnight it was moved to Tech Ops (I'm trying to get it moved back here, we'll see).

Anyway, I'm sure many of you would be interested in it. It's here:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/196509/
 
ultrapig
Posts: 568
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:38 pm

RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:30 am

Anett ramp people-

A very simple question. I understand that planes get diverted and delayed-its part of flying. I understand that there can be no available gates.

What I don't understand is why every airport doesn't have mobile stairs so that the passengers can get off and be bussed to the terminal. It seems so simple-I know its takes time and costs money but why not do it if there will be a prolonged delay?

I spent 3 hours on the tarmac inPhilly waiitng for a gate on a rj last year. I still don't understand why we needed a gate. What am I missing?
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:35 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 43):
everyone has to wait, for an open gate

Why do you need a gate ? 5 minutes with a set of steps is all you need to get everyone off. Then they can sit in the terminal, use the bathroom, eat, drink, phone home while the airline makes arrangments either to transport them out on the same aircraft, or put them on a bus. Why leave them on the plane ?
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
JBLUA320
Posts: 2997
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 8:51 am

RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:38 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 47):
5 minutes with a set of steps is all you need to get everyone off.

You assume steps were readily available. ACY is not a big airport, nor does it see a lot of commercial traffic compared to its counterparts to the North and West. With all the diversions they were likely to have been receiving (since the entire NE corridor was plugged), it was first come, first serve.

They can sit, use the bathroom and phone home while they were on the plane. The shops at ACY would likely have been closed after 9pm, so the passengers had more food choices on the plane (since jetBlue offers a choice, and usually overcaters) than they would have had in the terminal. Plus, they had XM radio and TV.
 
pilotntrng
Posts: 679
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:13 pm

RE: JetBlue Flight "Traps" Customers

Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:44 am

From what I can recall, the weather in JFK that afternoon was pretty lousy most of the afteernoon and evening. My question is, why did they even take off from FLL? They should have been on a ground stop or gate hold. Another question is abou the media. 150 people seems a bit much on an A320, how many seats does JetBlue have on theirs?




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