CarsAir04
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Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:20 pm

A story in the Rocky Mountain News today, 6/29. Rates must me much better today than in 2005.


http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drm.../0,2777,DRMN_23912_5608141,00.html
 
columba
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:36 pm

In other words Airbus has to change the prices............
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
eclipz
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Fri Jun 29, 2007 10:54 pm

"The terms are good, but I'm not so sure they're better than what we could get now."
Do you think he is talking about Airbus when he talks about what he could get now ? It sounds strange to me as the A320 family is still very popular so i don't really understand why he says that... does anybody have an explanation ?
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:01 pm

Quoting Eclipz (Reply 2):
Do you think he is talking about Airbus when he talks about what he could get now ? It sounds strange to me as the A320 family is still very popular so i don't really understand why he says that... does anybody have an explanation ?

I have a feeling that WN in the Denver market has started to erode both marketshare and profit for Frontier. In addition I feel that Frontier is going to rely more and more on regional aircraft for expansion in lieu of the mainline equipment. It doesnt have anything to do with price from my point of view. I think the Frontier Economic Reality Check is starting to come into play.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
geotrash
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 3):
I have a feeling that WN in the Denver market has started to erode both marketshare and profit for Frontier.

From a local perspective- I'm a loyal Frontier passenger. I fly them from DEN-SLC every other week, plus lots of other flying. Lately, Frontier's ticket prices have been really high on the SLC route, even with a 2 week advanced purchase. I tried to book a ticket last week for the week of the 9th, and they wanted $450. Delta was $330 and Southwest was $249. I had no choice per my corporate travel policy and went with Southwest.

2 weeks before that was a similar story. If the costs are high because the seats are already full, good for Frontier, but as a business traveler often making plans at the last minute, I'm finding myself forced into Southwest for some of my flying at the moment.

Dave
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:35 am

Quoting Geotrash (Reply 4):
If the costs are high because the seats are already full, good for Frontier, but as a business traveler often making plans at the last minute, I'm finding myself forced into Southwest for some of my flying at the moment

You have just summed up the reason that Southwest Airlines has been such a success. This day in age people are looking less at the soft product(for the most part their is no soft product left to differentiate airlines), and more and more at price. Why pay $400+, when you can fly $295.00 on WN and get there at the same time. I think that UAL and F9 are both going to be hit even more hard by the recent expansion in the Denver market.

If rumors are true that WN is trying to erode profits for F9 in DEN, and head thier value down to a valuable purchase rate for WN.. It will become even more interesting..

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
CarsAir04
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:50 am

I can say that the Frontier flights are extremely full right now. I was at DIA the other day and the lines are long, the concourse is full. I know some employees are trying to fly these days and the Frontier flights being full, they are using Southwest as a backup (at least to the places they fly that are the same as Frontier from DIA) and they have been able to get on. Maybe their prices are lower because they have seats to fill and Frontier doesnt.
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:58 am

Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 6):
Maybe their prices are lower because they have seats to fill and Frontier doesnt.

The WN 737-300 holds more pax (131)than the F9 A318(114), that may be why..  wink 

Remember the recent storms that have paralyzed the East Coast have forced F9 routes to be filled to capacity with people re booking existing reservations, and being moved from one flight to another for protection.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
geotrash
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 6):
I can say that the Frontier flights are extremely full right now. I was at DIA the other day and the lines are long, the concourse is full. I know some employees are trying to fly these days and the Frontier flights being full, they are using Southwest as a backup (at least to the places they fly that are the same as Frontier from DIA) and they have been able to get on. Maybe their prices are lower because they have seats to fill and Frontier doesnt.

Yes, I think this is likely the case. Over the past few years I've noticed that Frontier's seat prices seem to go up as their seats actually fill. On the very few Frontier flights I've been on at less than capacity, I have been able to get reasonable ticket prices up until the last minute.

I think the flights these past few weeks are so full because they had CHEAP fares on the DEN-SLC run for a few months and lots of people probably booked their summer vacations to visit family at those prices. Maybe in a few months once the hordes of vacationers who got bargains well in advance work through the system, fares and loads will normalize. Still, if a guy who flies every week like me finds himself being forced more and more to the competition, that can't be good for Frontier in the long run. I might just get accustomed to another FF program  eek 

Of course, every Southwest flight I've been on has been packed to capacity as well, so I don't think anyone is going out with many empty seats.

Dave
 
CarsAir04
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:14 am

Quoting Geotrash (Reply 8):
so I don't think anyone is going out with many empty seats.

That is true, every ticket counter i saw was full that day.
 
rdwelch
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:26 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 7):
The WN 737-300 holds more pax (131)than the F9 A318(114), that may be why..

But not more that the more plentiful A319 (132), but I see your point.

Gus
They say I have ADD, but they don't understand..Oh look! A chicken!
 
ikramerica
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:32 am

Quoting Eclipz (Reply 2):
"The terms are good, but I'm not so sure they're better than what we could get now."
Do you think he is talking about Airbus when he talks about what he could get now ? It sounds strange to me as the A320 family is still very popular so i don't really understand why he says that... does anybody have an explanation ?

I'll get flamed for this, but it's likely that Airbus has driven this "popular" demand by lower prices. They have had huge sales numbers for the A320 in the last 3 years, trying to win new customers, but if their current customers start to notice these deals, they are going to ask "why can't we get this lower price?" It's the Air Indian syndrome. "We deserve the lowest price for all purchases."
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
geotrash
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 5):
This day in age people are looking less at the soft product(for the most part their is no soft product left to differentiate airlines), and more and more at price.

This is probably true up to a point. However, I would routinely pay a higher fare (up to $100) per ticket to do business with an airline I prefer, like Frontier...even when traveling on my own dime. I fly United often as well- particularly for international routes, and recently paid an extra $190 for a ticket to London on United because I knew the E+ seat would be more comfortable.

I think the main thing is that the "soft" product things like good service, FF programs and critter tails are absolutely important. Price is a primary factor, no question, but people will still pay more for good service and a company they perceive as being superior. How much more they will pay and at what point they will jump ship is the thing that good airline marketers must understand.

Cheers,
Dave
 
bnatraveler
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting Rdwelch (Reply 10):
Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 7):
The WN 737-300 holds more pax (131)than the F9 A318(114), that may be why..

But not more that the more plentiful A319 (132), but I see your point.

WN's 737-300s and 737-700s hold 137. There are currently around 4 planes riding around with a bit fewer, but they will be modified in the near term to match capacity.

WN's 737-500 holds 122 (same as what their 737-200 held)
 
rdwelch
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:10 am

Quoting BNAtraveler (Reply 13):
WN's 737-300s and 737-700s hold 137. There are currently around 4 planes riding around with a bit fewer, but they will be modified in the near term to match capacity.

WN's 737-500 holds 122 (same as what their 737-200 held)

I always wondered how much the 735 held, thanks. Anyhow I was pointing out to FLYGUY767 that F9 has only 10 318 to almost 50 319s, so the comparison was a little tilted.

Gus.
They say I have ADD, but they don't understand..Oh look! A chicken!
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 3):
I have a feeling that WN in the Denver market has started to erode both marketshare and profit for Frontier.

Profits? The storms did that. Up until the winter storms, Frontier had been profitable for the financial year.

Market share? Frontier's market share has gone up since Spithwest arrived at DEN, according to th Wall Street Journal.

No question that Southwest wants to be No. 2 at DEN - but they're not there yet.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
jkarp2112
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:28 am

I really like Frontier, but, Southwest is making a nice impression at DIA. Examples - much shorter/faster check-in, and *no* overweight charges on my luggage on WN on the outbound after paying a fee on F9 on the inbound.

Couple with the fact that F9 will be adding seats and thus reducing pitch this year I have to give WN the nod for keeping with 33" - that means a TON to a 6'5" person like me.
 
AirMike2
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:47 am

I will be helping Southwest get to number 2 by spending my money with them - and not an airline that charges me $50.00 because my bag is two pounds overweight. What's the point in advertising You're a whole different animal if you're not?
 
geotrash
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:57 am

Quoting AirMike2 (Reply 17):
and not an airline that charges me $50.00 because my bag is two pounds overweight.

Mike,

This is but one of literally dozens of issues that you can either choose to use as a reason to ignore all of the great service and good karma that Frontier provides in other areas...or not. I hope the baggage allowance doesn't become the watershed issue for you.

Dave
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 15):
Profits? The storms did that. Up until the winter storms, Frontier had been profitable for the financial year.

The Financial Year has not ended yet..  wink 

Quoting Mariner (Reply 15):
Market share? Frontier's market share has gone up since Spithwest arrived at DEN, according to th Wall Street Journal.

Southwest Airlines? ... I am not aware of a Spithwest Airlines..

Regarding the WSJ, it is not the greatest source for information on any and all things aviation related. Is there a source for F9's market share rising since WN entered the Denver market?

Quoting AirMike2 (Reply 17):
What's the point in advertising You're a whole different animal if you're not?

 checkmark 

Interesting that you mention that. A friend of mine flew his parents from California to New York on Frontier Airlines via Denver. On Frontiers website they advertise free snacks are offered onboard. On the SAN-DEN flight nothing was offered by a beverage, and on the DEN-LGA flight the beverages were offered twice with nothing else. On the return segment the flight was delayed 5 hours departing LGA forcing a missed connection in Denver. The Rep in Denver handed his parents a hotel phone number. When his parents asked why the airline didn't take care of the room, the Agent remarked something to tune of "You missed your connection, it was weather related, it was not the airlines fault". Then the only flight they offered to put his parents on the next day was at 8am, mind you they arrived in Denver at 1130pm. Or else they would have to buy their ticket on another airline. Which they indeed did, they purchased a ticket on United Airlines.

So in turn, I dont believe F9 is any different than UA, AA, or anybody else..

Quoting Rdwelch (Reply 14):
I always wondered how much the 735 held, thanks. Anyhow I was pointing out to FLYGUY767 that F9 has only 10 318 to almost 50 319s, so the comparison was a little tilted.

A319 or A318, makes no difference on average WN has more seats available than Frontier Airlines..

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
CarsAir04
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:20 am

I think that

Quoting Jkarp2112 (Reply 16):
much shorter/faster check-in

Considering that Frontier has 6 times the number of flights a day, i could see the WN counter being faster. But Frontier has added kiosks across their entire ticket counter now and added several carry on only kiosk separate from the regular check in line to make it faster for the people who only have a carry on.
 
ytib
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:23 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 19):
The Financial Year has not ended yet..

Well a Financial Year is always happening, however the financial year with this past winters storms in Denver ended 3 months ago.
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:26 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 19):
The Financial Year has not ended yet..

Frontier's Financial Year has only just begun. They are still in 1Q, they have not reported 1Q earnings.

As to market share, I'm not sure how many sources you want:

http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_6236600

"Frontier Airlines and Southwest Airlines have both increased their market share at DIA"

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
rdwelch
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:41 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 19):
A319 or A318, makes no difference on average WN has more seats available than Frontier Airlines..

Uh....ok. It does when you give specifics and then change it to generalities to make the point. And, no they don't have more available seats out of DEN.

Gus
They say I have ADD, but they don't understand..Oh look! A chicken!
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:41 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
As to market share, I'm not sure how many sources you want

Mariner,

The article is broad and does not say over what period they are talking about growth. In addition it is more than evident in the article that United Airlines has dropped in the market. What I find most amusing is the article is still clinging onto the hope of Air China starting service to Denver. It was also amusing to see the way the United Airlines rep danced around the reasons for not flying to Asia.

Thanks for the read in any case.. The bit about Air China and Denver was some great late afternoon humor!

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 24):
The article is broad and does not say over what period they are talking about growth.

I can only shrug. There are two reputable newspapers, the Wall Street Journal and the Denver Post, saying Frontier's market share has increased. The figures can be checked, both in the DIA statistics and in the Federal T100's.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 24):
In addition it is more than evident in the article that United Airlines has dropped in the market.

Yes, indeed and United has confirmed that. But I don't know how that makes the Frontier statement invalid.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
usairways85
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:16 am

Anyone think this plays into the B6, F9 merger rumors that have been running around the past few hours
 
FATFlyer
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:42 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 3):
I have a feeling that WN in the Denver market has started to erode both marketshare and profit for Frontier.



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 19):
Regarding the WSJ, it is not the greatest source for information on any and all things aviation related. Is there a source for F9's market share rising since WN entered the Denver market?

Well how about the Denver airport statistics. WN started at DEN in Jan 2006.

DEN breaks out JetExpress separate from F9. It also divides domestic and international traffic. I'll just look at domestic to compare with WN.

Combining Frontier and JetExpress, they had 20.76% of the domestic DEN market before Southwest, 21.76% in Apr 2006 and slightly grew to 21.95% in Apr 2007.

April 2007 Market Share of Domestic Traffic at DEN-
United - 35.5%
All UAX carriers - 11.77%
Frontier - 19.81%
JetExpress (Horizon/Republic) - 2.14%
Southwest - 4.45%

April 2006
United - 36%
All UAX carriers - 12.05%
Frontier - 19.47%
JetExpress (Horizon) - 2.29%
Southwest - 2.93%

Dec 2005 (month before WN started at DEN)
United - 36.77%
All UAX carriers - 12.1%
Frontier - 18.36%
JetExpress (Horizon) - 2.4%
http://www.flydenver.com/diabiz/stats/traffic/index.asp
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
VictorKilo
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:13 am

Based on the above statistics, United has lost 1.6 percent of market share since the arrival of Southwest, but Frontier has gained 1.2 points of market share. United and Frontier combine for only 0.4 percent less market share now than before Southwest arrived - meaning that the large bulk of Southwest's market share gains (4.05 out of 4.45 percent) come from the combined reduction in market share of all of the other domestic carriers serving DEN.

As far as Frontier's forgoing of Airbus options, I think it's a good way to save face over a reduction in growth - which could be more based on the economy (even Southwest is not growing its fleet as fast as it had planned) than based on the current competitive situation in Denver.
 
F9Animal
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For

Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:32 am

This is no big news. Frontier is just being smart about money and growth. Frontier has a hill to climb, and there is no doubt they will climb to the top. WN has a hill to climb, and they will make it to the top.


If anybody is taking a major hit in DEN, it would be UA. UA not only has tried to fight F9 tooth and nail out of DEN, but now they are going head to head with WN.

WN wants a piece of the pie in DEN, and they will do what it takes to get it. But trust me, niether UA or F9 are going to go bust over it. Airlines like HP/US have learned to adapt to WN creeping in their neighborhood. You can't beat WN, but you sure can survive WN.

I remember when F9 first started service. Everyone said UA would crush F9. Then came TED. F9 is still flying high, and they are still a "whole different animal".
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:44 am

Quoting BNAtraveler (Reply 13):
There are currently around 4 planes riding around with a bit fewer, but they will be modified in the near term to match capacity.

N270WN, N271LV, N550WN, and N551WN, all recently acquired birds on the used market, have 128 seats. They'll all be standardized to 137 the first half of 2008.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:54 am

Quoting Geotrash (Reply 4):
2 weeks before that was a similar story

It must be market by market based. UA and F9 are almost always cheaper than WN to PHX except for full Y which is the same.
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:49 am

Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 6):
I can say that the Frontier flights are extremely full right now. I was at DIA the other day and the lines are long, the concourse is full. I know some employees are trying to fly these days and the Frontier flights being full, they are using Southwest as a backup (at least to the places they fly that are the same as Frontier from DIA) and they have been able to get on. Maybe their prices are lower because they have seats to fill and Frontier doesnt.

Same for UA employees. UA's flights are so full that employees are being forced to buy walkup fares on Southwest and JetBlue. There's no room on UA flights for employee non-revs. Ah, the glamour of working for an airline!
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:08 am

Quoting Geotrash (Reply 4):
I tried to book a ticket last week for the week of the 9th, and they wanted $450. Delta was $330 and Southwest was $249. I had no choice per my corporate travel policy and went with Southwest.

That's a puzzle. The Frontier website shows fares for all that week (July 9) and none is higher than $284, most are around $260.

Travelocity is offering $246/$256/$236 on Frontier for the first three days of that week and $188 for Thursday/Friday 12 and 13.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
alphascan
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 3):
I have a feeling that WN in the Denver market has started to erode both marketshare and profit for Frontier.

Interesting that you write about "feelings", but require others to "document". Then when you get the documentation provided to you, you get these "feelings " again that you can't trust it. A bit of a double standard I think. Here is a website which will "document" that F9's DIA market share has indeed improved EVERY MONTH since WN's arrival:


http://www.flydenver.com/diabiz/stats/traffic/index.asp

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 5):
You have just summed up the reason that Southwest Airlines has been such a success. This day in age people are looking less at the soft product(for the most part their is no soft product left to differentiate airlines), and more and more at price. Why pay $400+, when you can fly $295.00 on WN and get there at the same time.

The fact that F9 can charge more for a ticket at any point in time shows who is capturing the premium. If WN didn't have many seats left, they too would be charging more. The winner is the carrier who maximizes revenue. You really don't understand airline economics, do you?

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 7):
The WN 737-300 holds more pax (131)than the F9 A318(114),

And the A319, of which F9 flies five times as many as the A318, holds 132 passengers.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 19):
The Financial Year has not ended yet..

It ended in March. It is now the last day of June, the end of the first quarter.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 19):
Regarding the WSJ, it is not the greatest source for information on any and all things aviation related.

Well they seem to do much better than your track record has been on this thread.

Quoting Jkarp2112 (Reply 16):
Couple with the fact that F9 will be adding seats and thus reducing pitch this year I have to give WN the nod for keeping with 33"

WN seat pitch is 32", the same as F9 is planning, except at exit rows where it is 33". Good luck on your 3 hour wait in line at the gate to get that extra inch. Frontier provides an 18" wide seat while WN has a 17" wide seat.

I do however agree with you that it is a terrible mistake for F9 to change the seat pitch and to nickel and dime on two lbs. of luggage weight--something F9 employees just didn't used to do. All of the elites in the Early Returns Program I have spoken to are pissed. They should have researched this issue much better before announcing it at the investor's conference. I believe it will...and already has to some extent...backfired on management.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
CarsAir04
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For

Sun Jul 01, 2007 4:59 am

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 34):
nickel and dime on two lbs. of luggage weight--something F9 employees just didn't used to do

I do think it is bad that they do this, but I know when I have flown, the agent at the ticket counter will point out the weight and allow you to do a little switch-a-roo on items in your bag. So if you have 2 bags, one overweight and one under, they will wait and let you take a little out of the one and put in the other or put some in your carry on. It has saved me and my family a couple times on the charge. Now if you only have the one bag and no carry on, your stuck with the charge (unless you get a really really nice agent).
 
rdwelch
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:16 am

All airlines have an overweight bag policy. All airlines will allow you to move items from one bag to another to keep one form being overweight. If both are so overweight this can't be accomplished successfully, then there's a chance you will be charged for overweight bags. This is not endemic to any specific airline. Granted, you might get an agent (from any airline) that won't be very flexible, and who hasn't, but the policy is industry wide. Of course, I can understand the consternation for only 2 pounds over, but the line has to be drawn somewhere, kinda like speed limits. You're traveling on an airplane, not moving in.

Ok, that sounded pissy, and I don't have the talent to make it sound smoother, so I hope you all will forgive me.

Gus
They say I have ADD, but they don't understand..Oh look! A chicken!
 
alphascan
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:14 am

CFO Tate announced at the investor (should actually read analyst) conference that F9 was implementing new policies (software?) that would make the employees justify waiving penalty fees--thus creating extra work for them if they do the passenger friendly thing. I think, that kind of mentality and the seat pitch issue, demonstrates a sea change in the way management thinks. "A whole different kind of airline" is quickly becoming homogenized...and quite frankly, as BOTH an elite Early Returns member and shareholder, it undermines my confidence in them. Service is what has made the airline so much better to fly than WN and the coach sections of the legacies. Penalizing an employee for not penalizing a customer does not breed good service or enhance the corporate culture.

Seems to me F9 is falling into the same trap that UA fell into. Instead of playing to their strengths, they are imitating the competition.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
airfrnt
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:26 am

Quoting Eclipz (Reply 2):

Do you think he is talking about Airbus when he talks about what he could get now ? It sounds strange to me as the A320 family is still very popular so i don't really understand why he says that... does anybody have an explanation ?

I honestly beleive there is going to be a glut of A320s and 737s available soon as everyone starts holding their orders until Y1 is proposed.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 3):
I have a feeling that WN in the Denver market has started to erode marketshare

False

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 3):

I have a feeling that WN in the Denver market has started to erode profit for Frontier.

True

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):

I'll get flamed for this, but it's likely that Airbus has driven this "popular" demand by lower prices

True

Quoting Mariner (Reply 15):
No question that Southwest wants to be No. 2 at DEN - but they're not there yet.

True

The more time goes on, and the more WN hints that their plans for acquisitions might not be limited to carriers with the same fleet, the more I think that Southwest is gunning for WN, either in merger, or to put them into the ground.

Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 28):
Based on the above statistics, United has lost 1.6 percent of market share since the arrival of Southwest, but Frontier has gained 1.2 points of market share. United and Frontier combine for only 0.4 percent less market share now than before Southwest arrived - meaning that the large bulk of Southwest's market share gains (4.05 out of 4.45 percent) come from the combined reduction in market share of all of the other domestic carriers serving DEN.

Bear in mind however, that traffic at Denver is going through the roof, and even begging to challenge the top three markets. Over the recent holiday, according to Orbitz, Denver was actually the busiest airport in the country. That's nothing to scoff at. I don't think UA is actually loosing seat-miles, they are not gaining on the huge increase in traffic at Denver.
 
mham001
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:20 am

Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 35):
I do think it is bad that they do this, but I know when I have flown, the agent at the ticket counter will point out the weight and allow you to do a little switch-a-roo on items in your bag.

Don't tell anybody I said this but on many scales at the counter with the right shoes, you can "alleviate" some of the weight by gently lifting your front toe.
 
F9Fan
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:28 pm

Keep in mind that WN has only five gates at DEN, and by the end of the year they will be either at or very close to capacity. While they are building 10 additonal gates on C, and I have no doubt that WN will take a good chunk of them, it will be some time before they challenge F9 in market share in DEN. WN seems to be taking a lot of market share from UA and the airlines that don't hub in DEN such as AA and DL. Also, UA is still downgrading a lot of their flights out of DEN to RJ service. I flew from DEN to CLE on a CRJ-700, and it was a very miserable three hours, especially since SkyWest doesn't have channel 9.  Angry
 
manni
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:19 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):

I'll get flamed for this, but it's likely that Airbus has driven this "popular" demand by lower prices. They have had huge sales numbers for the A320 in the last 3 years, trying to win new customers, but if their current customers start to notice these deals, they are going to ask "why can't we get this lower price?"

The terms Frontier negotaited for these options were negotiated in 2005. That's during these years of high demand. It seems that Frontier is convinced that they can negotiate similar terms starting from scratch and that there's no need to exercice options now because of favorable pricing previously negotiated. As production increases, overhead costs can be distributed over more aircraft. This might strengthen Airbus position in giving better terms without actually decreasing profit.


"The rights essentially let Frontier place orders for more aircraft - which would be delivered in several years - under terms negotiated in 2005."
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mariner
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:48 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 41):
As production increases, overhead costs can be distributed over more aircraft. This might strengthen Airbus position in giving better terms without actually decreasing profit.

 checkmark 

You must be one of the few posters here who took what Frontier said at face value, examined it, found a valid business reason for it and did not find a negative subtext.

mariner
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FLYGUY767
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:43 am

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 34):
Interesting that you write about "feelings", but require others to "document". Then when you get the documentation provided to you, you get these "feelings " again that you can't trust it. A bit of a double standard I think.

When the source is DIA I question most things. Remember they are the airport that still thinks Air China is coming to town, and that United Airlines still has plans to operate from Asia. Even the Denver media thinks that United should bring back the 747-400, as in the recent article. Denver does not have the demand, with the exception of connecting traffic to do such a thing. Denver is the lowest O/D hub in the United Airlines network. LAX, SFO, ORD, IAD are all much stronger O/D markets with much stronger premium yield bases.

Honestly, I cannot believe most things coming out of DIA. Does anyone remember how we were supposed to see DIA as this great big International Airport connecting the World. Very little came of this new white elephant airport..

Korean came and left, MartinAir came and left, United Airlines entered the long-haul market from Denver and dropped it. The bright sides of the Denver market are British Airways and Lufthansa entered the market. British Airways serves Denver as a stand alone market, and was the first to do such a thing. Lufthansa, and United funnel a lot of West Coast connecting traffic via Denver on the LH MUC and FRA services. I cannot see Denver being a stand alone domestic/international hub option on United Airlines metal in the long-term. I do not believe Munich will reamin served by Lufthansa if United contues to pull market share away from the Denver market. I do believe that Lufthansa will maintain the Frankfurt service, however I question that as well with the dismantling, if it does happen of a United Airlines hub at Denver. The writing on the walls does not look good for United. A serious re-think of hubs including Denver is going to be coming into play very soon, if they do not opt to sell to the highest bidder.

Never say never as Atlanta lost Eastern, New York lost Pan Am, St. Louis lost TWA, and Miami lost National..

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 34):
The fact that F9 can charge more for a ticket at any point in time shows who is capturing the premium. If WN didn't have many seats left, they too would be charging more. The winner is the carrier who maximizes revenue. You really don't understand airline economics, do you?

The fact that F9 is charging a premium means nothing. It does not mean the premium that you measure is a premium to keep Frontier in the black instead of the red.

F9 has been hit recently with the reduction of a second poorly planned out California experiment. F9 was shot out of the LAX Trans-Con market do to poorly managed expansion and marketing decisions. Again in this recent case it was shot out of the SFO-LAX, SFO-LAS market due to poorly promoted service, and a lack of clientele in either market.

I cannot see Frontier remaining a stand alone operation for the long term, I honestly feel that they are on borrowed time in a market that has recently seen the entry of Southwest Airlines. I may be totally wrong for the long-term, but I hold true to the notion that Frontier will not be viable as a stand alone carrier for the long-term. Remember Frontier is gaining a premium in a time of year that all airlines are reporting very good yields. There is a lack of seats, and what seats are available seem to be going to the highest bidder, it is called the Spring/Summer Travel Rush. Come October and November of this year I feel that it will be a different story. With the entrance of Southwest and its fare structure, I cannot see Frontier continuing to charge the premiums that it does, as when WN grows, so does it following.

Most people outside of Denver here the name Frontier and wonder who and what they are. It is not a fault of the American audience it is and of itself a fault of Frontier. I cannot remember Frontier doing any marketing in the SF or LA market for their services, they are not a well known airline outside of the Denver market.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 27):
Well how about the Denver airport statistics.

Thank You for the link...

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 27):
Combining Frontier and JetExpress, they had 20.76% of the domestic DEN market before Southwest, 21.76% in Apr 2006 and slightly grew to 21.95% in Apr 2007.

April 2007 Market Share of Domestic Traffic at DEN-
United - 35.5%
All UAX carriers - 11.77%
Frontier - 19.81%
JetExpress (Horizon/Republic) - 2.14%
Southwest - 4.45%

April 2006
United - 36%
All UAX carriers - 12.05%
Frontier - 19.47%
JetExpress (Horizon) - 2.29%
Southwest - 2.93%

So in essence :


  • Southwest Airlines has grown by 1.52% > Largest Growth in the Denver market
  • UAX has dropped by .28% > Largest Drop in the Denver Market
  • United has dropped by .5%
  • Frontier has grown by .34%
  • Jet Express(Horizon/Republic) has dropped by .15%


-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
alphascan
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:03 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 43):
When the source is DIA I question most things.



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 43):
Honestly, I cannot believe most things coming out of DIA.

These are operating statistics, not crystal ball readings. If you have a need to to continue to argue when you have been proven wrong (what five or six times in this thread alone?) , God help you and especially those who have to come into contact with you on a daily basis.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
columba
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 19):
I am not aware of a Spithwest Airlines..

Merger Spirit/Southwest  Smile
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
kingcavalier
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 43):
Most people outside of Denver here the name Frontier and wonder who and what they are. It is not a fault of the American audience it is and of itself a fault of Frontier.

The same can be said of Hawaiian, Alaska, Aloha, Spirit and just about every airline that operates outside of the US. Niche airlines can stand alone and do very well. It is not the fault of the American audience. Americans know what they know. People in Dallas know American. People in Atlanta know Delta. Pepole in Memphis know Northwest.

People in Colorado know Frontier, and as time goes on, so do more and more Americans.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting KingCavalier (Reply 46):
The same can be said of Hawaiian, Alaska, Aloha, Spirit and just about every airline that operates outside of the US.

Alaska Airlines has a much stronger brand recognition than Frontier hands down..

Quoting KingCavalier (Reply 46):
Niche airlines can stand alone and do very well.

Alaska Airlines in not a niche airline. It is the hub airline at Seattle, Portland, and Anchorage. Focus Cities are operated at Vancouver, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. By no means is Alaska Airlines as unknown as Frontier..

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
ikramerica
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 41):
The terms Frontier negotaited for these options were negotiated in 2005. That's during these years of high demand. It seems that Frontier is convinced that they can negotiate similar terms starting from scratch and that there's no need to exercice options now because of favorable pricing previously negotiated. As production increases, overhead costs can be distributed over more aircraft. This might strengthen Airbus position in giving better terms without actually decreasing profit.

I didn't say it was lower profit, only that in the scant 2 years since Frontier placed those options, it seems that the going rate for a 1st tier customer for A320s has decreased. Thus Frontier is trying to get the "best price" as a condition of converting the options.

If Airbus is making the same profit on a lower price, they should have no problem with this.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
kingcavalier
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RE: Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now

Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:56 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 47):
Alaska Airlines has a much stronger brand recognition than Frontier hands down

Maybe if you live in Alaska or on the west coast. Not many people east of the Mississippi river have an opportunity to fly Alaska.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 47):
Alaska Airlines in not a niche airline

Maybe, but they are still concentrated on the US west coast.

You're an Alaska Airlines fan. Got it.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness

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