jimyvr
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British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:29 am

http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...umberValue=28149&searchType=docket

A decision has just made on 29JUN07. See 2007-28149-6 (Order)

British Airways has received permission conditionally to operate service between any points in the European Union and the US under the new open skies deal, effective 30MAR08.
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Avianca
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:46 am

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
British Airways has received permission conditionally to operate service between any points in the European Union and the US under the new open skies deal, effective 30MAR08.

and ??? all other airlines will get the same rights.
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sandrozrh
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:48 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 1):

and ??? all other airlines will get the same rights.

Exactly. Nothing new here.
 
jimyvr
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:47 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 1):
and ??? all other airlines will get the same rights.

First European carrier applied and get go ahead for this since the 1970s.
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
jacobin777
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:53 pm

Watched an interview on Bloomberg with Walsh..he stated they will begin transatlantic B767 and B757 flights from various European cities once they get the "green light"
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STT757
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:55 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 4):
Watched an interview on Bloomberg with Walsh..he stated they will begin transatlantic B767 and B757 flights from various European cities once they get the "green light"

I listened to that interview on Bloomberg radio, he specifically mentioned Frankfurt, Milan and Paris.
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Avianca
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:00 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 5):
I listened to that interview on Bloomberg radio, he specifically mentioned Frankfurt, Milan and Paris.

will be intresting to see how many good slots they will get in frankfurt....
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AIR MALTA
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:13 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 6):
will be intresting to see how many good slots they will get in frankfurt....

They have enough of own there. They have 11 flights a day to FRA from both LCY and LHR and they can get some slots from FlyBE as well. So i don't think there would be any problem there.
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jacobin777
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:24 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 5):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 4):
Watched an interview on Bloomberg with Walsh..he stated they will begin transatlantic B767 and B757 flights from various European cities once they get the "green light"

I listened to that interview on Bloomberg radio, he specifically mentioned Frankfurt, Milan and Paris.

..cool, I couldn't recall if he had stated any cities out of Europe....

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 7):
Quoting Avianca (Reply 6):
will be intresting to see how many good slots they will get in frankfurt....

They have enough of own there. They have 11 flights a day to FRA from both LCY and LHR and they can get some slots from FlyBE as well. So i don't think there would be any problem there.

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LHboyatDTW
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:35 pm

just like BA announcing DFW-LHR and IAH-LHR, this is much ado about nothing. bored 

Though with the talks of FRA, MXP, and CDG, does this mean that BA's CEO is talking about 757/767 flights to US destinations from those cities? Sorry for sounding a little ignorant regarding that, but it seems a bit confusing to me. Then again it is 3:30 am as I'm typing this.  tired 
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Aleksandar
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:20 pm

They could send one or two of their 767s to BEG  bigthumbsup 
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sandrozrh
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:23 pm

I wonder how they want to compete against LH and AF with once daily 757/767 flights, especially in the premium classes.
 
A350XWB
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:54 pm

Any idea which destinations they will serve out of FRA? NYC? ORD?
 
vv701
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:18 pm

Quoting LHboyatDTW (Reply 9):
Though with the talks of FRA, MXP, and CDG, does this mean that BA's CEO is talking about 757/767 flights to US destinations from those cities?

BA have previously said that their application is to serve US cities from continental European cities with 752s and 763s configured for premium class passengers only. So effectively the proposed services will offer the second generation BA lie flat Club World seat to many more routes.

Whether or not these services will be 'much ado about nothing' I leave it to you, AF, LH and AZ as well as the US legacy airlines and the likes of MaxJet and Silverjet to decide.
 
vfw614
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:32 pm

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 10):
They could send one or two of their 767s to BEG bigthumbsup

If only BEG was in an EU member state....
 
Rivet42
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:41 pm

Eh? "Won"...? That's a bit over-dramatic, isn't it?! This is clearly just a formality, and don't be surprised to see several other key Europen carriers do the same, if they haven't done already. Actually starting any such service will be newsworthy, merely being granted the rights to do so in the new 'open skies' era is hardly deserving of such drum-beating.

I look forward to the actuality, but in the mentime will hold back my excitement for more deserving 'news'...
I travel, therefore I am.
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:05 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
British Airways has received permission conditionally to operate service between any points in the European Union and the US under the new open skies deal, effective 30MAR08.

There have been numerous discussions about this topic already over the past few weeks. This action was a given as it is part of the new EU-US Open Skies Agreement. It has been discussed at length, the information posted was nothing more than a formality.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
BAOPS777
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:08 pm

Quoting A350XWB (Reply 12):
Any idea which destinations they will serve out of FRA? NYC? ORD?

BA are looking at using JFK as a hub. The plan is to operate to FRA/CDG/MIL/MAD

They have also said they would like to operate from the UK. This will probably be done not from LHR but from a secondry airport such as LGW/LTN or STN

They will use there dedicated terminal. T7 at JFK. The product they are looking at is either all J or more likely Mostly J with rear cabin being configured with W class.

There plan is to lobby the DOT to open the skies in the US as is happening in Europe. Then BA will start domestic services from JFK with US based crews

Interesting times this can only be good news for business passengers who will have more choice
 
flyboyaz
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:43 pm

Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 17):
Interesting times this can only be good news for business passengers who will have more choice

Yeah great for them, but sucks for all the American carriers that are just starting to get their heads above the water by adding cash cow international flights. Will be interesting to see what happens.
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BAOPS777
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:52 pm

Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 18):
Yeah great for them, but sucks for all the American carriers that are just starting to get their heads above the water by adding cash cow international flights. Will be interesting to see what happens.

Well finnlly it might weed out some of these carriers that need to modernise in Europe airlines can not hide behind chapter 11 protection. Once a airline goes bankrupt its bye bye

BA, VS, EI, LH are all airlines who made difficult cost cuts to conserve there business.

Maybe they should have seen that the business is in international sectors along time before now.
 
flyboyaz
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:55 pm

Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 19):
Well finnlly it might weed out some of these carriers that need to modernise in Europe airlines can not hide behind chapter 11 protection. Once a airline goes bankrupt its bye bye

Uh...if that was the case then we'd be left with AA and CO in the US....that would be just dandy....

I understand your point though. At least now other airlines can fly into LHR, that will give BA a run for their money....they were hiding behind that for decades, now they will have to put up a fight! lol
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Aisak
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 13):
752s and 763s configured for premium class passengers only. So effectively the proposed services will offer the second generation BA lie flat Club World seat to many more routes.

How many of these seats fit into a 752/763? These are the forwards/backwards facing seats, aren't they?

Anyway.... The 763 seems logical, but weren't the 757 going to be exclusive for MAD, BCN, LIS, HEL and NCE out of T3@LHR to simplify operations? I don't know how many 757 they have and how many they do need for these 5 destinations but i don't think BA expected 757 tatl service from continental Europe when they planned the operation at T3.
 
vv701
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:59 pm

Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 17):
BA are looking at using JFK as a hub. The plan is to operate to FRA/CDG/MIL/MAD

Unlike with most (all?) European airports my understanding - please correct me if I am wrong - is that in the US gates can be as much a specific issue as slots are at some EU airports. My understanding is that T7 at JFK, although built and owned by the New York Port Authority, is leased by BA. However T7 is also used by other airlines. These include BA's OneWorld Alliance partners CX, IB and QF but also AC, FI, NH, UA and US.

Do these other airlines lease or rent their gates in T7 from the NYPA or from BA? If from BA are the gates on long term or short term lease or simply rented? In other words is gate availability at JFK to BA a restriction that BA will need to find a way to overcome if it wants to start operating JFK-CDG/FRA/MXP juat as DL would have to find a way of addressing slot availability at LHR to operate JFK-LHR, or does BA control the gates in T7 at JFK to the extent that it can easily address any gate issue.

A question directed at BAOPS777: Is it that BA are known to be looking to operate a JFK-MAD service (presumably in cooperation with OneWorld partner IB) or is this your own assessment?

Finally this would establish a US hub of BA operated aircraft requiring servicing. Logically routine servicing could be effected by ferrying or substituting the aircraft on a CDG/FRA/MXP-LHR service. (BA used to ferry the 763s used on the MAN-JFK service to LHR for servicing. However for the last 18 months it has substitutes these aircraft on its LHR-MAN-LHR shuttle service to reposition them.) But what about non-routine servicing? What does BA's partner, AA do when either one of their 752s or 763s requires engineering attention at JFK? Do they have their own engineering facility there? If so could it even carry out routine servicing on BA aircraft?
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:59 pm

Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 20):
Uh...if that was the case then we'd be left with AA and CO in the US....that would be just dandy....

Continental Airlines has been bankrupt twice, and ceased operations once..

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
flyboyaz
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 23):
Continental Airlines has been bankrupt twice, and ceased operations once..

Yes I realize that...I was talking about since 9/11...sorry I should have clarifyed.
Catch a ride on a smile!
 
Aisak
Posts: 550
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 17):
They will use there dedicated terminal. T7 at JFK.
...
There plan is to lobby the DOT to open the skies in the US as is happening in Europe. Then BA will start domestic services from JFK with US based crews

Even if they don't get 8th freedom rights (which i think they'll never get) i guess they can start domestic operations with international passengers. Just like Qantas LAX-JFK leg which can carry passengers from/to SYD, BNE and MEL. A passenger flying MAN-JFK and a LHR-JFK of course could continue onto a BA JFK-LAX flight but... could be the same applied to BA nonUK-JFK passengers?

[Edited 2007-06-30 17:11:13]
 
jfk787nyc
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:10 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 22):
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 1694 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted Sat Jun 30 2007 10:59:20 your local time (5 minutes 56 secs ago) and read 63 times:


Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 17):
BA are looking at using JFK as a hub. The plan is to operate to FRA/CDG/MIL/MAD

Unlike with most (all?) European airports my understanding - please correct me if I am wrong - is that in the US gates can be as much a specific issue as slots are at some EU airports. My understanding is that T7 at JFK, although built and owned by the New York Port Authority, is leased by BA. However T7 is also used by other airlines. These include BA's OneWorld Alliance partners CX, IB and QF but also AC, FI, NH, UA and US.

Do these other airlines lease or rent their gates in T7 from the NYPA or from BA? If from BA are the gates on long term or short term lease or simply rented? In other words is gate availability at JFK to BA a restriction that BA will need to find a way to overcome if it wants to start operating JFK-CDG/FRA/MXP juat as DL would have to find a way of addressing slot availability at LHR to operate JFK-LHR, or does BA control the gates in T7 at JFK to the extent that it can easily address any gate issue.



This is a very good question. But, British Airways owns the terminal and all those airlines lease their gates from them. On a side note they can very easily move all the carriers to American Airlines brand new terminal right next door.

Works for everyone.

A question directed at BAOPS777: Is it that BA are known to be looking to operate a JFK-MAD service (presumably in cooperation with OneWorld partner IB) or is this your own assessment?

Finally this would establish a US hub of BA operated aircraft requiring servicing. Logically routine servicing could be effected by ferrying or substituting the aircraft on a CDG/FRA/MXP-LHR service. (BA used to ferry the 763s used on the MAN-JFK service to LHR for servicing. However for the last 18 months it has substitutes these aircraft on its LHR-MAN-LHR shuttle service to reposition them.) But what about non-routine servicing? What does BA's partner, AA do when either one of their 752s or 763s requires engineering attention at JFK? Do they have their own engineering facility there? If so could it even carry out routine servicing on BA aircraft?
 
vv701
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 20):
Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 19):
Well finnlly it might weed out some of these carriers that need to modernise in Europe airlines can not hide behind chapter 11 protection. Once a airline goes bankrupt its bye bye

Uh...if that was the case then we'd be left with AA and CO in the US....that would be just dandy....

Do you think so? I would have thought that if you could start after 9/11 all over again and there was no Chapter 11 protection that:

1. None of the airlines that actually went into Chapter 11 protection would have gone into total bankruptcy quite as readily.

2. If one of the US legacy carriers had actually gone out of business there would be opportunities for the survivors that would have reduced the chance of them going into bankruptcy.

If so you might have lost one from DL, NW, UA and US, but I even doubt that.
 
flyboyaz
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:22 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 27):
Do you think so? I would have thought that if you could start after 9/11 all over again and there was no Chapter 11 protection that:

1. None of the airlines that actually went into Chapter 11 protection would have gone into total bankruptcy quite as readily.

2. If one of the US legacy carriers had actually gone out of business there would be opportunities for the survivors that would have reduced the chance of them going into bankruptcy.

If so you might have lost one from DL, NW, UA and US, but I even doubt that.

It's hard to say I guess.

Now I'm not that clear on the new plan, but does it also include that foreign carriers are allowed to fly domestic routes in the US? Is it reciprocal, meaning AA could fly from London to Paris? If that's the case, then every US carrier that wants to compete will have to alter their inflight service (and service in general). Almost any European carrier could cream any US carrier on inflight service...and we think CO has good service....pffft! There's no comparison AT ALL.
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BAOPS777
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:31 am

Quoting Aisak (Reply 25):
Even if they don't get 8th freedom rights (which i think they'll never get) i guess they can start domestic operations with international passengers. Just like Qantas LAX-JFK leg which can carry passengers from/to SYD, BNE and MEL. A passenger flying MAN-JFK and a LHR-JFK of course could continue onto a BA JFK-LAX flight but... could be the same applied to BA nonUK-JFK passengers?

Part of the open skies agreement is the opening of US skies to european airlines. Infact it is one of the stipulated points.

If the US refuse european countries, I know for a fact the UK, France, Germany and spain have the right to revoke the treaty

Also they have already said they will do so.
 
COEI2007
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:27 am

Quoting LHboyatDTW (Reply 9):
Though with the talks of FRA, MXP, and CDG, does this mean that BA's CEO is talking about 757/767 flights to US destinations from those cities? Sorry for sounding a little ignorant regarding that, but it seems a bit confusing to me. Then again it is 3:30 am as I'm typing this.



Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 11):
I wonder how they want to compete against LH and AF with once daily 757/767 flights, especially in the premium classes.

I think BA's Club World and First offerings can more than compete with LH or AF on JFK's flights.

Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 18):
Yeah great for them, but sucks for all the American carriers that are just starting to get their heads above the water by adding cash cow international flights. Will be interesting to see what happens.

I think the American carriers will be fine. CO/DL etc's J seats are cheaper than BA's, and a lot of their seats are sold through corporate arrangements. BA most likely, already has a lot of traveller flying FRA/MXP/CDG to LHR and connecting to the US using Club World and First, so those pax can use the new direct all Club/First 757/767!
 
BCAL
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:39 am

Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 20):
At least now other airlines can fly into LHR, that will give BA a run for their money....they were hiding behind that for decades, now they will have to put up a fight! lol

BA has had a fight for ages and has stayed ahead of the competition. There are many other airlines currently flying to/from LHR - as their home hub BA has fewer percentage of total slots at LHR than AF at CDG, LH at FRA and KLM at AMS.

I assume that you are referring to the UK-US routes, but have you forgotten that there is competition from AA and UA on the US side, VS on their home side and to a smaller extent Air India and Kuwait Airways? BA is the clear winner and even BA/VS combined carry more passengers than AA and UA and that is despite the fact that AA and UA have the advantage of massive hubs that can carry passengers beyond JFK, NEW, ORD etc. Even after 9/11 when the US carriers were hiding behind Chapter 11 protection and/or government subsidies, BA still survived without any assistance from the UK Government and made a profit.

Have you also not forgotten the fight that BA has with the likes of SQ and CX on the Far Eastern routes and to a smaller extent VS who has cherry picked BA’s routes like LHR-HKG, LHR-SYD? Also the fast growing carriers from the Gulf States like EK, Etihad and Qatar who are poaching pax travelling to Asia and Australia? And then there is a competition on the home and European turf from the LCCs like U2 and FR.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
flyboyaz
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting BCAL (Reply 31):
BA has had a fight for ages and has stayed ahead of the competition. There are many other airlines currently flying to/from LHR - as their home hub BA has fewer percentage of total slots at LHR than AF at CDG, LH at FRA and KLM at AMS.

Yeah I know, but all those airports are not as restricted as LHR is. BA is lucky to have as much of a market there as they do...but they are the flag carrier for GB, so that is expected.

BA is a great airline...I worked for them (indirectly) in the past and was VERY impressed with the way they operated. Everything was so precise...just like in typical British fashion  Smile In a way it's a good thing for US carriers because they will now have to upgrade their services to compete. I flew Club World from SAN-PHX and was blown away at the service I received...an actual meal....it was crazy! We're so used to crappy service in the states....I'm hoping it's a wake up call for our airlines to now concentrate on providing good service. It's sad our finances were so bad that this was very neglected. Hopefully things will change.
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Humberside
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RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:21 am

Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 17):
They have also said they would like to operate from the UK. This will probably be done not from LHR but from a secondry airport such as LGW/LTN or STN

Wouldnt LGW make most sense considering there is already a BA presense at the airport?

Also, do BA plan on any branding for this new operation, to differentiate it from their normal product? Such as BA Executive - incorporating the BA brand but informing customers that it isn't a 'traditional' BA long haul flight with two/three classes
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BAOPS777
Posts: 117
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:31 am

RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US

Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:29 am

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 26):
A question directed at BAOPS777: Is it that BA are known to be looking to operate a JFK-MAD service (presumably in cooperation with OneWorld partner IB) or is this your own assessment?

This is from someone on the development team. They have a shortlist of 20 destanations of which they will probably only use 8 to 10.

BA has alot of connecting traffic in business ex mad. So this would save those pax valuable time. I personally believe MAD wont go through until the whole takeover bid has been addressed.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 26):
Finally this would establish a US hub of BA operated aircraft requiring servicing. Logically routine servicing could be effected by ferrying or substituting the aircraft on a CDG/FRA/MXP-LHR service. (BA used to ferry the 763s used on the MAN-JFK service to LHR for servicing. However for the last 18 months it has substitutes these aircraft on its LHR-MAN-LHR shuttle service to reposition them.) But what about non-routine servicing? What does BA's partner, AA do when either one of their 752s or 763s requires engineering attention at JFK? Do they have their own engineering facility there? If so could it even carry out routine servicing on BA aircraft?


BA has its own engineers based at JFK. It would probably come to a parts agreement with AA.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 26):
Unlike with most (all?) European airports my understanding - please correct me if I am wrong - is that in the US gates can be as much a specific issue as slots are at some EU airports. My understanding is that T7 at JFK, although built and owned by the New York Port Authority, is leased by BA. However T7 is also used by other airlines. These include BA's OneWorld Alliance partners CX, IB and QF but also AC, FI, NH, UA and US.

Do these other airlines lease or rent their gates in T7 from the NYPA or from BA? If from BA are the gates on long term or short term lease or simply rented? In other words is gate availability at JFK to BA a restriction that BA will need to find a way to overcome if it wants to start operating JFK-CDG/FRA/MXP juat as DL would have to find a way of addressing slot availability at LHR to operate JFK-LHR, or does BA control the gates in T7 at JFK to the extent that it can easily address any gate issue.

T7 is owned by BA. It handles flights for FI/IB/CX/QF it would probably be UA who would need to find a new home freeing up vital gate space

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