Page 1 of 1
British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:29 am
by jimyvr
http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...umberValue=28149&searchType=docket
A decision has just made on 29JUN07. See 2007-28149-6 (Order)
British Airways has received permission conditionally to operate service between any points in the European Union and the US under the new open skies deal, effective 30MAR08.
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:46 am
by Avianca
Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter): British Airways has received permission conditionally to operate service between any points in the European Union and the US under the new open skies deal, effective 30MAR08. |
and ??? all other airlines will get the same rights.
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:48 am
by sandrozrh
Quoting Avianca (Reply 1):
and ??? all other airlines will get the same rights. |
Exactly. Nothing new here.
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:47 pm
by jimyvr
Quoting Avianca (Reply 1): and ??? all other airlines will get the same rights. |
First European carrier applied and get go ahead for this since the 1970s.
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:53 pm
by jacobin777
Watched an interview on Bloomberg with Walsh..he stated they will begin transatlantic B767 and B757 flights from various European cities once they get the "green light"
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:55 pm
by STT757
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 4): Watched an interview on Bloomberg with Walsh..he stated they will begin transatlantic B767 and B757 flights from various European cities once they get the "green light" |
I listened to that interview on Bloomberg radio, he specifically mentioned Frankfurt, Milan and Paris.
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:00 pm
by Avianca
Quoting STT757 (Reply 5): I listened to that interview on Bloomberg radio, he specifically mentioned Frankfurt, Milan and Paris. |
will be intresting to see how many good slots they will get in frankfurt....
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:13 pm
by AIR MALTA
Quoting Avianca (Reply 6): will be intresting to see how many good slots they will get in frankfurt.... |
They have enough of own there. They have 11 flights a day to
FRA from both
LCY and
LHR and they can get some slots from FlyBE as well. So i don't think there would be any problem there.
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:24 pm
by jacobin777
Quoting STT757 (Reply 5): Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 4):
Watched an interview on Bloomberg with Walsh..he stated they will begin transatlantic B767 and B757 flights from various European cities once they get the "green light"
I listened to that interview on Bloomberg radio, he specifically mentioned Frankfurt, Milan and Paris. |
..cool, I couldn't recall if he had stated any cities out of Europe....
Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 7): Quoting Avianca (Reply 6):
will be intresting to see how many good slots they will get in frankfurt....
They have enough of own there. They have 11 flights a day to FRA from both LCY and LHR and they can get some slots from FlyBE as well. So i don't think there would be any problem there. |
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:35 pm
by LHboyatDTW
just like
BA announcing
DFW-
LHR and
IAH-
LHR, this is much ado about nothing.
Though with the talks of
FRA,
MXP, and
CDG, does this mean that
BA's CEO is talking about 757/767 flights to US destinations from those cities? Sorry for sounding a little ignorant regarding that, but it seems a bit confusing to me. Then again it is 3:30 am as I'm typing this.
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:20 pm
by Aleksandar
They could send one or two of their 767s to
BEG
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:23 pm
by sandrozrh
I wonder how they want to compete against
LH and
AF with once daily 757/767 flights, especially in the premium classes.
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:54 pm
by A350XWB
Any idea which destinations they will serve out of
FRA? NYC?
ORD?
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:18 pm
by vv701
Quoting LHboyatDTW (Reply 9): Though with the talks of FRA, MXP, and CDG, does this mean that BA's CEO is talking about 757/767 flights to US destinations from those cities? |
BA have previously said that their application is to serve US cities from continental European cities with 752s and 763s configured for premium class passengers only. So effectively the proposed services will offer the second generation
BA lie flat Club World seat to many more routes.
Whether or not these services will be 'much ado about nothing' I leave it to you,
AF,
LH and
AZ as well as the US legacy airlines and the likes of MaxJet and Silverjet to decide.
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:32 pm
by vfw614
If only
BEG was in an EU member state....
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:41 pm
by Rivet42
Eh? "Won"...? That's a bit over-dramatic, isn't it?! This is clearly just a formality, and don't be surprised to see several other key Europen carriers do the same, if they haven't done already. Actually starting any such service will be newsworthy, merely being granted the rights to do so in the new 'open skies' era is hardly deserving of such drum-beating.
I look forward to the actuality, but in the mentime will hold back my excitement for more deserving 'news'...
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:05 pm
by FLYGUY767
Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter): British Airways has received permission conditionally to operate service between any points in the European Union and the US under the new open skies deal, effective 30MAR08. |
There have been numerous discussions about this topic already over the past few weeks. This action was a given as it is part of the new EU-US Open Skies Agreement. It has been discussed at length, the information posted was nothing more than a formality.
-JD
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:08 pm
by BAOPS777
Quoting A350XWB (Reply 12): Any idea which destinations they will serve out of FRA? NYC? ORD?
|
BA are looking at using
JFK as a hub. The plan is to operate to
FRA/
CDG/MIL/
MAD
They have also said they would like to operate from the UK. This will probably be done not from
LHR but from a secondry airport such as
LGW/
LTN or
STN
They will use there dedicated terminal.
T7 at
JFK. The product they are looking at is either all J or more likely Mostly J with rear cabin being configured with W class.
There plan is to lobby the DOT to open the skies in the US as is happening in Europe. Then
BA will start domestic services from
JFK with US based crews
Interesting times this can only be good news for business passengers who will have more choice
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:43 pm
by flyboyaz
Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 17): Interesting times this can only be good news for business passengers who will have more choice |
Yeah great for them, but sucks for all the American carriers that are just starting to get their heads above the water by adding cash cow international flights. Will be interesting to see what happens.
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:52 pm
by BAOPS777
Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 18): Yeah great for them, but sucks for all the American carriers that are just starting to get their heads above the water by adding cash cow international flights. Will be interesting to see what happens.
|
Well finnlly it might weed out some of these carriers that need to modernise in Europe airlines can not hide behind chapter 11 protection. Once a airline goes bankrupt its bye bye
BA,
VS,
EI,
LH are all airlines who made difficult cost cuts to conserve there business.
Maybe they should have seen that the business is in international sectors along time before now.
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:55 pm
by flyboyaz
Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 19): Well finnlly it might weed out some of these carriers that need to modernise in Europe airlines can not hide behind chapter 11 protection. Once a airline goes bankrupt its bye bye |
Uh...if that was the case then we'd be left with
AA and
CO in the US....that would be just dandy....
I understand your point though. At least now other airlines can fly into
LHR, that will give
BA a run for their money....they were hiding behind that for decades, now they will have to put up a fight! lol
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:57 pm
by Aisak
Quoting VV701 (Reply 13): 752s and 763s configured for premium class passengers only. So effectively the proposed services will offer the second generation BA lie flat Club World seat to many more routes. |
How many of these seats fit into a 752/763? These are the forwards/backwards facing seats, aren't they?
Anyway.... The 763 seems logical, but weren't the 757 going to be exclusive for
MAD,
BCN,
LIS,
HEL and
NCE out of
T3@
LHR to simplify operations? I don't know how many 757 they have and how many they do need for these 5 destinations but i don't think
BA expected 757 tatl service from continental Europe when they planned the operation at
T3.
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:59 pm
by vv701
Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 17): BA are looking at using JFK as a hub. The plan is to operate to FRA/CDG/MIL/MAD |
Unlike with most (all?) European airports my understanding - please correct me if I am wrong - is that in the US gates can be as much a specific issue as slots are at some EU airports. My understanding is that
T7 at
JFK, although built and owned by the New York Port Authority, is leased by
BA. However
T7 is also used by other airlines. These include
BA's OneWorld Alliance partners
CX,
IB and
QF but also
AC,
FI,
NH,
UA and US.
Do these other airlines lease or rent their gates in
T7 from the NYPA or from
BA? If from
BA are the gates on long term or short term lease or simply rented? In other words is gate availability at
JFK to
BA a restriction that
BA will need to find a way to overcome if it wants to start operating
JFK-
CDG/
FRA/
MXP juat as
DL would have to find a way of addressing slot availability at
LHR to operate
JFK-
LHR, or does
BA control the gates in
T7 at
JFK to the extent that it can easily address any gate issue.
A question directed at BAOPS777: Is it that
BA are known to be looking to operate a
JFK-
MAD service (presumably in cooperation with OneWorld partner
IB) or is this your own assessment?
Finally this would establish a US hub of
BA operated aircraft requiring servicing. Logically routine servicing could be effected by ferrying or substituting the aircraft on a
CDG/
FRA/
MXP-
LHR service. (
BA used to ferry the 763s used on the
MAN-
JFK service to
LHR for servicing. However for the last 18 months it has substitutes these aircraft on its
LHR-
MAN-
LHR shuttle service to reposition them.) But what about non-routine servicing? What does
BA's partner,
AA do when either one of their 752s or 763s requires engineering attention at
JFK? Do they have their own engineering facility there? If so could it even carry out routine servicing on
BA aircraft?
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:59 pm
by FLYGUY767
Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 20): Uh...if that was the case then we'd be left with AA and CO in the US....that would be just dandy.... |
Continental Airlines has been bankrupt twice, and ceased operations once..
-JD
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:02 am
by flyboyaz
Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 23): Continental Airlines has been bankrupt twice, and ceased operations once.. |
Yes I realize that...I was talking about since 9/11...sorry I should have clarifyed.
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:09 am
by Aisak
Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 17):
They will use there dedicated terminal. T7 at JFK.
...
There plan is to lobby the DOT to open the skies in the US as is happening in Europe. Then BA will start domestic services from JFK with US based crews |
Even if they don't get 8th freedom rights (which i think they'll never get) i guess they can start domestic operations with international passengers. Just like Qantas
LAX-
JFK leg which can carry passengers from/to
SYD,
BNE and
MEL. A passenger flying
MAN-
JFK and a
LHR-
JFK of course could continue onto a
BA JFK-
LAX flight but... could be the same applied to
BA nonUK-
JFK passengers?
[Edited 2007-06-30 17:11:13]
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:10 am
by jfk787nyc
Quoting VV701 (Reply 22): VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 1694 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted Sat Jun 30 2007 10:59:20 your local time (5 minutes 56 secs ago) and read 63 times:
Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 17):
BA are looking at using JFK as a hub. The plan is to operate to FRA/CDG/MIL/MAD
Unlike with most (all?) European airports my understanding - please correct me if I am wrong - is that in the US gates can be as much a specific issue as slots are at some EU airports. My understanding is that T7 at JFK, although built and owned by the New York Port Authority, is leased by BA. However T7 is also used by other airlines. These include BA's OneWorld Alliance partners CX, IB and QF but also AC, FI, NH, UA and US.
Do these other airlines lease or rent their gates in T7 from the NYPA or from BA? If from BA are the gates on long term or short term lease or simply rented? In other words is gate availability at JFK to BA a restriction that BA will need to find a way to overcome if it wants to start operating JFK-CDG/FRA/MXP juat as DL would have to find a way of addressing slot availability at LHR to operate JFK-LHR, or does BA control the gates in T7 at JFK to the extent that it can easily address any gate issue.
This is a very good question. But, British Airways owns the terminal and all those airlines lease their gates from them. On a side note they can very easily move all the carriers to American Airlines brand new terminal right next door.
Works for everyone.
A question directed at BAOPS777: Is it that BA are known to be looking to operate a JFK-MAD service (presumably in cooperation with OneWorld partner IB) or is this your own assessment?
Finally this would establish a US hub of BA operated aircraft requiring servicing. Logically routine servicing could be effected by ferrying or substituting the aircraft on a CDG/FRA/MXP-LHR service. (BA used to ferry the 763s used on the MAN-JFK service to LHR for servicing. However for the last 18 months it has substitutes these aircraft on its LHR-MAN-LHR shuttle service to reposition them.) But what about non-routine servicing? What does BA's partner, AA do when either one of their 752s or 763s requires engineering attention at JFK? Do they have their own engineering facility there? If so could it even carry out routine servicing on BA aircraft? |
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:16 am
by vv701
Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 20): Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 19):
Well finnlly it might weed out some of these carriers that need to modernise in Europe airlines can not hide behind chapter 11 protection. Once a airline goes bankrupt its bye bye
Uh...if that was the case then we'd be left with AA and CO in the US....that would be just dandy.... |
Do you think so? I would have thought that if you could start after 9/11 all over again and there was no Chapter 11 protection that:
1. None of the airlines that actually went into Chapter 11 protection would have gone into total bankruptcy quite as readily.
2. If one of the US legacy carriers had actually gone out of business there would be opportunities for the survivors that would have reduced the chance of them going into bankruptcy.
If so you might have lost one from
DL,
NW,
UA and US, but I even doubt that.
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:22 am
by flyboyaz
Quoting VV701 (Reply 27): Do you think so? I would have thought that if you could start after 9/11 all over again and there was no Chapter 11 protection that:
1. None of the airlines that actually went into Chapter 11 protection would have gone into total bankruptcy quite as readily.
2. If one of the US legacy carriers had actually gone out of business there would be opportunities for the survivors that would have reduced the chance of them going into bankruptcy.
If so you might have lost one from DL, NW, UA and US, but I even doubt that. |
It's hard to say I guess.
Now I'm not that clear on the new plan, but does it also include that foreign carriers are allowed to fly domestic routes in the US? Is it reciprocal, meaning
AA could fly from London to Paris? If that's the case, then every US carrier that wants to compete will have to alter their inflight service (and service in general). Almost any European carrier could cream any US carrier on inflight service...and we think
CO has good service....pffft! There's no comparison
AT ALL.
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:31 am
by BAOPS777
Quoting Aisak (Reply 25): Even if they don't get 8th freedom rights (which i think they'll never get) i guess they can start domestic operations with international passengers. Just like Qantas LAX-JFK leg which can carry passengers from/to SYD, BNE and MEL. A passenger flying MAN-JFK and a LHR-JFK of course could continue onto a BA JFK-LAX flight but... could be the same applied to BA nonUK-JFK passengers? |
Part of the open skies agreement is the opening of US skies to european airlines. Infact it is one of the stipulated points.
If the US refuse european countries, I know for a fact the UK, France, Germany and spain have the right to revoke the treaty
Also they have already said they will do so.
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:27 am
by COEI2007
Quoting LHboyatDTW (Reply 9): Though with the talks of FRA, MXP, and CDG, does this mean that BA's CEO is talking about 757/767 flights to US destinations from those cities? Sorry for sounding a little ignorant regarding that, but it seems a bit confusing to me. Then again it is 3:30 am as I'm typing this. |
Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 11): I wonder how they want to compete against LH and AF with once daily 757/767 flights, especially in the premium classes. |
I think
BA's Club World and First offerings can more than compete with
LH or
AF on
JFK's flights.
Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 18): Yeah great for them, but sucks for all the American carriers that are just starting to get their heads above the water by adding cash cow international flights. Will be interesting to see what happens. |
I think the American carriers will be fine.
CO/DL etc's J seats are cheaper than
BA's, and a lot of their seats are sold through corporate arrangements.
BA most likely, already has a lot of traveller flying
FRA/
MXP/
CDG to
LHR and connecting to the US using Club World and First, so those pax can use the new direct all Club/First 757/767!
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:39 am
by BCAL
Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 20): At least now other airlines can fly into LHR, that will give BA a run for their money....they were hiding behind that for decades, now they will have to put up a fight! lol |
BA has had a fight for ages and has stayed ahead of the competition. There are many other airlines currently flying to/from
LHR - as their home hub
BA has fewer percentage of total slots at
LHR than
AF at
CDG,
LH at
FRA and KLM at
AMS.
I assume that you are referring to the UK-US routes, but have you forgotten that there is competition from
AA and
UA on the US side,
VS on their home side and to a smaller extent Air India and Kuwait Airways?
BA is the clear winner and even
BA/VS combined carry more passengers than
AA and
UA and that is despite the fact that
AA and
UA have the advantage of massive hubs that can carry passengers beyond
JFK,
NEW,
ORD etc. Even after 9/11 when the US carriers were hiding behind Chapter 11 protection and/or government subsidies,
BA still survived without any assistance from the UK Government and made a profit.
Have you also not forgotten the fight that
BA has with the likes of
SQ and
CX on the Far Eastern routes and to a smaller extent
VS who has cherry picked
BA’s routes like
LHR-
HKG,
LHR-
SYD? Also the fast growing carriers from the Gulf States like
EK, Etihad and Qatar who are poaching pax travelling to Asia and Australia? And then there is a competition on the home and European turf from the LCCs like
U2 and
FR.
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:46 am
by flyboyaz
Quoting BCAL (Reply 31): BA has had a fight for ages and has stayed ahead of the competition. There are many other airlines currently flying to/from LHR - as their home hub BA has fewer percentage of total slots at LHR than AF at CDG, LH at FRA and KLM at AMS. |
Yeah I know, but all those airports are not as restricted as
LHR is.
BA is lucky to have as much of a market there as they do...but they are the flag carrier for
GB, so that is expected.
BA is a great airline...I worked for them (indirectly) in the past and was VERY impressed with the way they operated. Everything was so precise...just like in typical British fashion
In a way it's a good thing for US carriers because they will now have to upgrade their services to compete. I flew Club World from
SAN-
PHX and was blown away at the service I received...an actual meal....it was crazy! We're so used to crappy service in the states....I'm hoping it's a wake up call for our airlines to now concentrate on providing good service. It's sad our finances were so bad that this was very neglected. Hopefully things will change.
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:21 am
by Humberside
Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 17): They have also said they would like to operate from the UK. This will probably be done not from LHR but from a secondry airport such as LGW/LTN or STN |
Wouldnt
LGW make most sense considering there is already a
BA presense at the airport?
Also, do
BA plan on any branding for this new operation, to differentiate it from their normal product? Such as
BA Executive - incorporating the
BA brand but informing customers that it isn't a 'traditional'
BA long haul flight with two/three classes
RE: British Airways Won Rights To Operate EU-US
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:29 am
by BAOPS777
Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 26): A question directed at BAOPS777: Is it that BA are known to be looking to operate a JFK-MAD service (presumably in cooperation with OneWorld partner IB) or is this your own assessment?
|
This is from someone on the development team. They have a shortlist of 20 destanations of which they will probably only use 8 to 10.
BA has alot of connecting traffic in business ex mad. So this would save those pax valuable time. I personally believe
MAD wont go through until the whole takeover bid has been addressed.
Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 26): Finally this would establish a US hub of BA operated aircraft requiring servicing. Logically routine servicing could be effected by ferrying or substituting the aircraft on a CDG/FRA/MXP-LHR service. (BA used to ferry the 763s used on the MAN-JFK service to LHR for servicing. However for the last 18 months it has substitutes these aircraft on its LHR-MAN-LHR shuttle service to reposition them.) But what about non-routine servicing? What does BA's partner, AA do when either one of their 752s or 763s requires engineering attention at JFK? Do they have their own engineering facility there? If so could it even carry out routine servicing on BA aircraft?
|
BA has its own engineers based at
JFK. It would probably come to a parts agreement with
AA.
Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 26): Unlike with most (all?) European airports my understanding - please correct me if I am wrong - is that in the US gates can be as much a specific issue as slots are at some EU airports. My understanding is that T7 at JFK, although built and owned by the New York Port Authority, is leased by BA. However T7 is also used by other airlines. These include BA's OneWorld Alliance partners CX, IB and QF but also AC, FI, NH, UA and US.
Do these other airlines lease or rent their gates in T7 from the NYPA or from BA? If from BA are the gates on long term or short term lease or simply rented? In other words is gate availability at JFK to BA a restriction that BA will need to find a way to overcome if it wants to start operating JFK-CDG/FRA/MXP juat as DL would have to find a way of addressing slot availability at LHR to operate JFK-LHR, or does BA control the gates in T7 at JFK to the extent that it can easily address any gate issue. |
T7 is owned by
BA. It handles flights for
FI/IB/CX/QF it would probably be
UA who would need to find a new home freeing up vital gate space