September11
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Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:05 pm

I was appalled to see this Airliners.net photo sporting a Lufthansa logo


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See the logo? It hasn't change!
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itsnotfinals
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:11 pm

why is this a problem?


that logo is iconic.
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TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:24 pm

Quoting September11 (Thread starter):
See the logo? It hasn't change!

Your point being...?

BTW - "it hasn't changed."
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AeroWesty
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:39 pm

The old Air France logo still appears on the engines of their planes. It's at least as old. Nothing appalling about it at all:


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PanHAM
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:08 pm

It has changed, but only slightly modified, if you care to take a look at today's logo and the one on the plane.

The crane is a time less design, a world wide recognized trade mark. BTW - even the yellow colour RAL numbe and the types are trade marked. There is a complete design concept behind it.
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trent1000
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:47 pm

Shocked? Apalled? Offended? I think "apalled" would be seeing a swastika featured prominently next to 'Lufthansa'.
Get over it.
 
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Vasu
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:30 pm

Appalled?

Strange word to use..

Quoting Trent1000 (Reply 5):
I think "apalled" would be seeing a swastika featured prominently next to 'Lufthansa'.

haha
 
PanHAM
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:46 pm

It would indeed be interesting tolearn why September11 was "appalled" to see the crane symbol on a plane in 1939?
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itsnotfinals
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:22 pm

it's "MIAS" = Misinformed American Syndrome.

Maybe he thinks since it was around during WWII it has a military connotation - it does not!


I flew in J on LH from JFK-FRA-TLV the week before last and I can only say - EXCELLENT.
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pelican
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:30 pm

Maybe someone should tell him that the crane was the LH emblem even before the Nazis came to power in Germany...
I wouldn't see a problem if the crane was adopted during the thirties, though.

pelican
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:00 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 9):
Maybe someone should tell him that the crane was the LH emblem even before the Nazis came to power in Germany...

Exaclty!
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spartanmjf
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:34 am

The soaring crane is as iconic as the Pan Am globe and the Aeroflot 'hammer and sickle flying wing" logo.

If I am not mistaken, the swastika on LH aircraft during the era of the Third Reich was painted on the vertical stabilizer, much as was done on the Hindenberg. In terms of historical reality, the existence of that bit of paint, while it might be offensive, would nonetheless be reflective of the actual aircraft of the time. The 'Rising Sun' logo of JAL is equally identifiable worldwide, and it also has historical issues dating from the Second World War.

Appalled? No way. Joyous? You bet! There is no doubt, when one sees the soaring crane, one thinks of Lufthansa. Long live the crane, the tulip U, the flying AA, and all of the other great and historical airline symbols [even the widget]!
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:43 am

The Condor is an old German symbol
 
cedarjet
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting September11 (Thread starter):
I was appalled to see this Airliners.net photo sporting a Lufthansa logo

Weirdest post ever! From our most appalling username! Wild stuff going on today. Is it the weather?
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agill
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting September11 (Thread starter):

Can you maybe explain the outrage, because many of us really don't understand.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:38 am

Just another example of reinforcing the "Ugly/Stupid American" stereotype abroad.

Sorry everyone, not all of us US Americans think in such stunted terms.


LH is a truly world class airline!
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:49 am

Quoting Spartanmjf (Reply 11):
If I am not mistaken, the swastika on LH aircraft during the era of the Third Reich was painted on the vertical stabilizer, much as was done on the Hindenberg.

The Nazi party Swastika flag was made the national flag in IIRC 1936 (just before the Olympic games in Berlin, before it was the flag of German democracy, Black, Red, Gold). At the same time Hitler ordered that all German aircraft should carry the national flag on their tails.

Jan
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agill
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:59 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 15):
Just another example of reinforcing the "Ugly/Stupid American" stereotype abroad.

Well stupid is pretty common over here too, but in this case I was more confused to be honnest.
 
vanguard737
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:15 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 8):
it's "MIAS" = Misinformed American Syndrome.



Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 15):
Just another example of reinforcing the "Ugly/Stupid American" stereotype abroad.

Sorry everyone, not all of us US Americans think in such stunted terms.

Because one person makes a confusing statement, this makes it justifiable to assume nearly 300 million people are somehow stupid?? o.....k If this is the case then why not assume 300 million Americans are smart when a single American makes and intelligent comment? flawed logic, that's why

OK, can someone please explain to me why they feel the need to apologize on the behalf of America when someone says something stupid? Why can't you just take it as it is: a person making a stupid comment? I don't see where anyone deserves to start accusing an entire country of being stupid and ignorant. It makes as much sense as someone apologizing on behalf of all "Caucasian 22 year old males" if I were to say something stupid. I don't mean to rant, it just makes no sense to me. I wouldn't think all Germans or Japanese were stupid if one of their respective countrymen said something stupid, so why act any different in this case.

As for this situation: I too am confused as to what is appalling about the Lufthansa symbol? (But notice I am not apologizing on the behalf of America because of this statement, lol)
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lvhgel
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:18 am

Logos that changed little or nothing in years:

Ford
Mercedes Benz
Coca Cola
Pan Am

just to name a few
I´m appaled  banghead   duck 
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:20 am

Quoting VANGUARD737 (Reply 18):
Because one person makes a confusing statement, this makes it justifiable to assume nearly 300 million

um...this is a well known term, and I am not implying that all 300 million US Citizens are stupid. (The term American actually can be used for anyone from North, Central or South America, it's another mis-used US term)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_American

"Over the years, the book has had less influence on American literature than it has had on perceptions of American culture. More often, stories of the "ugly American" abound largely out of tourists who make little to no effort to understand the nations they are visiting, or even the idea that the world doesn't revolve around the United States. Said examples can include an American woman in Paris yelling at a department store clerk for refusing to accept American currency and the "ridiculous idea" that the clerk will only accept French Francs as payment"


I have seen way too many cases of this personally , and it only takes one person's comment to reinforce it.

the quote was:

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 15):
not all of us US Americans think in such stunted terms.

not: Every US American is stupid. Big difference!

[Edited 2007-07-01 01:22:24]
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nosedive
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:16 am

Quoting VANGUARD737 (Reply 18):
o.....k If this is the case then why not assume 300 million Americans are smart when a single American makes and intelligent comment? flawed logic, that's why

Hence, why it's called a stereotype  Wink

IIRC, Mercedes 3 pronged star had been 1st used by DMG in 1909. Should that be changed as well? Didn't BMW make airplane engines for the German Luftwaffe? Sheesh, I know some Polish twins who'd love this topic!
 
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:53 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 9):
I wouldn't see a problem if the crane was

...

Quoting Pelican (Reply 9):
pelican

A pelican in support of a crane ... now that's cute! Big grin
 
flyabunch
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:13 am

I have to be honest and say that when I saw the initial post I thought "oh crap, another ugly american post". I for one love the history associated with the Crane logo.

It would be just as easy to say that one was "appalled" at the three pointed star Mercedes logo because Hitler rode around in Mercedes autos.

There is nothing wrong with the Crane. The swastika is another matter. Unfortunately Hitler's use of that symbol ruined its use for many cultures who used it as a sacred symbol. Including native American Indians.

Mike
 
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:19 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 20):
um...this is a well known term

I understand that. Maybe I just wasn't clear. My point is that such terminologies (ugly American), regardless of country, are simplistic, idiotic, and flawed.

But in America's case, I suppose it goes to prove the Dutch saying, "Hoge bomen vangen veel wind."
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vanguard737
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:23 am

September11:

We are still waiting for clarification! Or have you realized the error of your statement?
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itsnotfinals
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:36 am

Quoting VANGUARD737 (Reply 24):
regardless of country, are simplistic, idiotic, and flawed.

I didn't coin the phrase thankfully.

Quoting VANGUARD737 (Reply 24):
"Hoge bomen vangen veel wind."

Yes that is true, any high level comment can be interpreted widely.



Goed avond
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pelican
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:52 am

Quoting Trent1000 (Reply 22):
A pelican in support of a crane ... now that's cute! Big grin

You know we -the big birds- have to stick together.
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alfa75
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:07 am

Do you think that was September11's last post?
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:11 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 27):
Quoting Trent1000 (Reply 22):
A pelican in support of a crane ... now that's cute! Big grin

You know we -the big birds- have to stick together.
bigthumbsup
pelican

Like on the infamous "Lusthansa" logo?  Silly
(I could not find a picture on the net, but in the 1980s LH tried to sue to owner of a joke shop because he printed LH -like stickers showing two copulating cranes. LH lost the case, especially since this sticker was immensely popular with LH employees themselves).

Jan
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:13 am

Quoting Trent1000 (Reply 5):
Shocked? Apalled? Offended? I think "appalled" would be seeing a swastika featured prominently next to 'Lufthansa'.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

It's been said before and I'll say it again. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The crane is what many people assimilate LH by. Without it, people will have difficulty recognizing their brand.

It's like AA using a silhouette of Capitol Hill on the tails of their fleet. It may symbolize that they're American, but will take time to adjust by many many people worldwide.
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:42 pm

I see nothing to get appalled at. When you have a classic symbol that is timeless... you stay with it. There is no need to change it. Mercedes-Benz has had the 3 pointed star for decades. The new VW bug has the familiar shape of the original car designed by Ferdinand Porsche back in the 30's, and when it was imported to the U.S. it never went thru yearly design changes like American cars. It's when you create a new logo or trademark to replace a long established one that things go awry. It was rumored that when Packard dipped the wings on its famous cormorant hood ornament... the car co. started it's downward spiral. When the once powerful Radio Corporation of America was taken over by the son of David Sarnoff, Robert Sarnoff... the first thing he did was get rid of the old trademarks and replace the art deco RCA monogram with fat, futuristic block letters. Under his leadership, RCA branched out into things it should have never gotten into, lost it's focus on consumer electronics and broadcast equipment, and then went thru several CEO's. By 1985, the co was bought by GE and promptly dismantled.

As the old saying goes... if it ain't broke, DON'T FIX IT!
 
zenarcade
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:26 pm

I too must say that I'm appalled... I mean look it, the pilot isn't even paying attention to where he is going. Not very Lufthansa like.  biggrin 

For some reason I think he might have meant surprised.
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GBan
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:44 pm

Quoting Zenarcade (Reply 32):
I too must say that I'm appalled... I mean look it, the pilot isn't even paying attention to where he is going. Not very Lufthansa like.

Considering that the engine does not seem to be running he won't go anywhere too soon...
 
TriStar500
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:20 pm

Nice to see that common sense is still prevailing at least in the world of a.net Big grin

September11, if that was supposed to be investigative journalism, you might want to consider a different career.
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:58 pm

Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
OceansWorld
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:19 pm

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 35):
The logo is actually from 1919:

Indeed, the crane was the insignia of LH predecessor Deutsche Luft-Reederei, which started services February 5th, 1919 from Berlin Johannistal airfield. That was 88 years ago !!

Edit: the German crane is around since 1918 already.

http://konzern.lufthansa.com/en/html...r_uns/geschichte/design/index.html

[Edited 2007-07-01 12:26:06]
 
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:58 pm

Quoting VANGUARD737 (Reply 24):
But in America's case, I suppose it goes to prove the Dutch saying, "Hoge bomen vangen veel wind."

Is there actually a saying like that one in English?

As for being appalled, I suppose you scream everytime you see a Volkswagen Beetle?
http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/classes/33d/33dWImages/HitlerPorscheVW1938.png
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:40 pm

Quoting Bwest (Reply 37):
As for being appalled, I suppose you scream everytime you see a Volkswagen Beetle?

The car that started as the KDF car (KDF= Kraft Durch Freude, Nazi trade union organisation)?

LUFTHANSA only exists since 1956. Before the airline was called LUFT HANSA, in two words. The reason is that the post war Lufthansa wanted to show that they are NOT a continuation of the prewar airline, else they would have been liable for Luft Hansa's debts.

Jan
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spartanmjf
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:52 pm

KDF - Strength Through Joy?

Air travel was, in the thirties in Germany and elsewhere, still something of a novelty and decidedly not routine for the mass of people. The KDF Wagen, on the other hand, was designed to be affordable and economical.
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jacobin777
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting Bwest (Reply 37):

As for being appalled, I suppose you scream everytime you see a Volkswagen Beetle?

or this...



"Hinduism has a developed system of symbolism and iconography to represent the sacred in art, architecture, literature and worship. These symbols gain their meaning from the scriptures, mythology, or cultural traditions. The symbols Om (which represents the Parabrahman), Swastika (which symbolizes auspiciousness) have grown to represent Hinduism itself,"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism
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vanguard737
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:14 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 38):
LUFTHANSA only exists since 1956. Before the airline was called LUFT HANSA, in two words.

I would say this is only accurate is legal situations. However, Lufthansa regularly boasts of their aviation experience in terms of years - over 80 - in ads, such as the "80 years to China" ad on the Lufthansa website.
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vanguard737
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting Bwest (Reply 37):
Is there actually a saying like that one in English?

No, not really. But I know some Dutch, so I am familiar which the saying, is all.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting VANGUARD737 (Reply 41):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 38):
LUFTHANSA only exists since 1956. Before the airline was called LUFT HANSA, in two words.

I would say this is only accurate is legal situations. However, Lufthansa regularly boasts of their aviation experience in terms of years - over 80 - in ads, such as the "80 years to China" ad on the Lufthansa website.

It's the legal side that matters. According to the late LH captain Rudolf Braunburg, the new Lufthansa shed itself from the responsibility e.g. for the old prewar employees and the debts which occured up to 1945.



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 40):

or this...



"Hinduism has a developed system of symbolism and iconography to represent the sacred in art, architecture, literature and worship. These symbols gain their meaning from the scriptures, mythology, or cultural traditions. The symbols Om (which represents the Parabrahman), Swastika (which symbolizes auspiciousness) have grown to represent Hinduism itself,"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism

The swastika was around thousands of years before the Nazis (not just the Hindus and Bhuddists, also the ancient Greeks and the Vikings used it), but it was hijacked by the rightwing movement in post WW1 Germany (first used as such by the Freikorps militia unit "Brigade Erhardt" during the civil war of 1918-1919) and established as symbol of the Nazis and as such has, at least in Europe, been permanently connected with Nazi attrocities.

BTW the period between 1919 and 1950 brough forward a huge amount of still interesting graphic designs.

Jan
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PanHAM
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:27 am

Quoting Spartanmjf (Reply 39):
KDF - Strength Through Joy?

That's what it means

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 43):

It's the legal side that matters. According to the late LH captain Rudolf Braunburg, the new Lufthansa shed itself from the responsibility e.g. for the old prewar employees and the debts which occured up to 1945.

The "Buero Bongers" took all legal precautions to make sure that the newly established "Deutsche Lufthansa AG" (1955) was not taken responsible for any liabilities from the past. That was taken care of politically.

That does not prevent Lufthansa from acknowledging its heritage. I have the book "Die Zeit im Fluge" (As time flies).
The first part is "Lufthansa, die Erste" 1926 - 1945 (Lufthansa the first) and they even write it in one word. The book was available at the 2005 AGM.in Cologne.

The Ju52 operatated by "Lufthansa Traditionsflug" (which is a foundation) is another example of refering to the heritage. .



. .
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:37 am

You can't go back and change the past.

Photos and documents of events from the past are just that, historical representations of what events were occurring at the time. To go back and "politically correct" these documents and photographs would be nothing short of criminal.

When you see such photographs that will throw you into a hissy, just remember "That was then, and this is NOW!"
Most of the time people learn from their mistakes, and by doing so are bound to never repeat them. Or so we hope.
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EDICHC
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:07 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 16):
The Nazi party Swastika flag was made the national flag in IIRC 1936 (just before the Olympic games in Berlin, before it was the flag of German democracy, Black, Red, Gold).

Prior to the Nazi incorporation of the swastika banner as the German national flag, the German flag was black, white and red. The black, red and gold was only adopted after WW2.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Lufthansa Logo In Late 1930s?

Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:02 pm

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 46):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 16):
The Nazi party Swastika flag was made the national flag in IIRC 1936 (just before the Olympic games in Berlin, before it was the flag of German democracy, Black, Red, Gold).

Prior to the Nazi incorporation of the swastika banner as the German national flag, the German flag was black, white and red. The black, red and gold was only adopted after WW2.



You are wrong. Black, white and red were the colours of the second German empire (1871-1918). The Weimar Republic (1918-1933) used Black, red and gold as well (also during the early Nazi years these colours were used, the Nazis didn't want to make too many abrupt changes).
Actually black, red and gold go back to the Napoleonic wars, when they were used by the Freikorps Luetzow, a militia unit of Prussian volunteers fighting the French occupation, after the great Prussian military reform (following the twin battles of Jena and Auerstedt, where the old aristocrat army was defeated by the French). For this time it was a huge change, instead of an army being the toy of an aristocrat, you had suddenly citizens taking matters in their own hands. These colours were later used by the German nationalist (in the sense that they wanted to unite the patchwork of German speaking kingdoms, duchies and counties), democrat movement in the failed revolution of 1848.
Black, red and gold were always the colour of German democracy (though East Germany used them as well, though had a hammer (symbolizing the workers, compass (symbolizing the intelligencia and science) and ears of grain (symbolizing the farmers) added).
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi