Tornado82
Topic Author
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Interesting Ferry Run.

Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:41 am

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N830SA

Well over 12 hours spent out over the Pacific in a Navajo. Looks like a pulse-raising experience, especially as it seems the flight is taking longer than originally planned for. Anyone with any inside scoop as to how much fuel was stuffed into ferry tanks and whatnot?
 
pr1268
Posts: 223
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RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:01 pm

The Navajo landed 2 hrs ago (as of 5:00 AM UTC July 1). 12 hours and 7 minutes in the air. This does seem like an interesting flight, considering its route and length.
The only time an aircraft has too much fuel is when it is on fire.
 
jetjeanes
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Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:42 am

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:28 pm

I think i would rather not choose a navaho to cross the pacific. Especially with enough fuel in the ferry tanks im surprised
it would have gotten off the ground for a 12 hr flight. I would think the pilot would have had some hesitation. How did they do it back in the old days put them on ships or what..
i can see for 80 miles
 
Type-Rated
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Joined: Sun Sep 19, 1999 5:18 am

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:39 pm

If you can make it SFO/OAK-HNL then you can hop anywhere else across the Pacific just by island hopping.
I imagine those pilots will have the sound of those engines in their ears for days to come! That is a long flight!
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
nrcnyc
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:50 am

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:31 pm

so do they pee in a cup?

seriously, that must be one heck of a flight. What happens if one engine fails? or both? man i cant imagine what it would be like to bob up and down in the pacific untill the coast guard finds you.
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:53 pm

There is a Saab 340 Ferrying from the US to Australia today as well.

Quoting Nrcnyc (Reply 4):
What happens if one engine fails? or both?

You get wet.......

Quoting Nrcnyc (Reply 4):
i cant imagine what it would be like to bob up and down in the pacific until the coast guard finds you.

Coast Guard...? What Coast Guard...??

[Edited 2007-07-01 15:00:25]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
jetmatt777
Crew
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RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:09 pm

Quoting Nrcnyc (Reply 4):
i cant imagine what it would be like to bob up and down in the pacific untill the coast guard finds you.



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5):
Coast Guard...? What Coast Guard...??

Yeah, out there you would drown or you would wind up on a deserted island like Tom Hanks did on "Cast Away".  Wink

I couldn't sit in something that small for that long over nothing but water.

-Matt
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
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Coal
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RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:20 pm

Quoting Nrcnyc (Reply 4):
What happens if one engine fails? or both?



Quoting Jetmatt777 (Reply 6):
Yeah, out there you would drown or you would wind up on a deserted island like Tom Hanks did on "Cast Away".

...and hope to have a volley ball with you  wink 

Cheers
Coal
Nxt Flts: MI RGN-SIN | SQ SIN-RGN-SIN | CX SIN-HKG-PVG | SQ PVG-SIN
 
n710ps
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RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:34 am

good luck after a few hours in really salty ans relatively cool water with the sharks as when your skin starts to tear from the water logging you will become lunch meat.
There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
 
c680
Posts: 428
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RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:45 am

Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 3):
If you can make it SFO/OAK-HNL then you can hop anywhere else across the Pacific just by island hopping.

Amen.

Actually if you can go West Coast to Hawaii, you can go just about anywhere in the world.

My preferred jumping off point is MRY - it's the shortest by a mile or two, and the FBOs there are more Hawaii bound aware for GA pilots.

Quoting Nrcnyc (Reply 4):
so do they pee in a cup?

In a bottle actually - see:
http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&did=19&product_id=297

Quoting N710PS (Reply 8):
good luck after a few hours in really salty ans relatively cool water with the sharks as when your skin starts to tear from the water logging you will become lunch meat.

Gee, thanks for that thought - I'll have a few thoughts for you next time I hit ETP  Wink
My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
 
EMBQA
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RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:49 am

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Rbgso
Posts: 289
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:15 pm

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5):
What happens if one engine fails? or both?

If you're lucky, you land on an island inhabited by the Swedish bikini team, or perhaps the Hawaiian Tropic girls.....
 
6yjjk
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:40 am

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:24 am

Quoting Nrcnyc (Reply 4):
so do they pee in a cup?

Or pay for some of these...
http://transair.co.uk/product4.asp?SID=2&Product_ID=1005

Or I suppose you could rig up the sort of pee-tube some gliders have - essentially a funnel with a hose leading to the outside, with suction increasing with airspeed. But I would be very nervous about putting my bits anywhere near one of those...
 
Tornado82
Topic Author
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 10):
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N373AE

Here ya go......

On the scale of balls... I give more credit to the Navajo. Turbines are a bit more reliable than Pistons. Either way, they've both got more than I ever would... you'd never catch me flying in something like that from the mainland to a Pacific island.

This is the new ETOPS 240 qualified Saab 340, right?  Silly
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:29 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 13):
Either way, they've both got more than I ever would... you'd never catch me flying in something like that from the mainland to a Pacific island.

It's a long term contract and I have been invited to do a flight..... which I might just do. But trust me, I'm getting a Business Class seat on Qantas for the trip home...!!
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
PapaNovember
Posts: 461
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RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:51 am

Why was their altitude (the Navajo) only 6,000 ft. Wouldn't you want to be much, much higher!?
 
pr1268
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:22 pm

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting Nrcnyc (Reply 4):
so do they pee in a cup?

Charles A. Lindbergh carried an empty coffee can with him on his famous New York-Paris flight.

Quoting C680 (Reply 9):
My preferred jumping off point is MRY - it's the shortest by a mile or two, and the FBOs there are more Hawaii bound aware for GA pilots.

Being totally silly here, pilots can take advantage of MRY's downhill runway 28L, after all the west end of the runway is over 100ft (31m) LOWER than the east end (according to the FAA's PDF http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0704/00271AD.PDF).  silly 
The only time an aircraft has too much fuel is when it is on fire.
 
CcrlR
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RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:40 am

Quoting PapaNovember (Reply 15):
Why was their altitude (the Navajo) only 6,000 ft. Wouldn't you want to be much, much higher!?

If it is pressurized, it can. But if it is not then they would have to be at a lower altitude. Any flying around 8,000 to 10,000 feet you need supplemental oxygen to survive at that altitude and you have to make certain that the engine will be able to operate at that altitude. If you check the Saab's flightplan (in the 10th post through the link), they are going to 22,000 feet. The airplane is pressurized and that may be the highest operating ceiling for the turboprop.

[Edited 2007-07-01 20:41:38]
"He was right, it is a screaming metal deathtrap!"-Cosmo (from the Fairly Oddparents)
 
FlyUSCG
Posts: 520
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:29 pm

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:56 am

Quoting CcrlR (Reply 17):
Any flying around 8,000 to 10,000 feet you need supplemental oxygen to survive

I used to file 10,500 or 11,500 when I did my solo cross countries in a C-172. Granted they were never more than a couple hours at that altitude. But the point is, someone who is used to it can survive there no problem. You're not exactly exerting yourself in such a way that you need all that extra oxygen you'd find at 6,000 feet. And of course we all know what the FAR's say about supplemental O2 in a non-pressurized aircraft: Any flight in excess of 12,500 feet for more than 30 minutes requires the pilots to be on supplemental oxygen. So back to the Navajo, it would have probably been more economical for them to file 10,000 or something around there. Not to mention it gives you extra time should something go wrong.
Go Trojans! Fight On!
 
chrisair
Posts: 1787
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2000 11:32 pm

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:32 am

There's an interesting book on Amazon titled "so you want to be a ferry pilot."

It's a very good read. Needless to say, 12 hours over the pacific wouldn't be my idea of fun--in anything. Let alone a Piper or Cessna or SF-340.
 
flinhion757
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:26 am

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:17 am

A Citation CJ3 can't evern do it... I would rather fly something else anyway!
319,320,332,732,733,735,737,738,744,752,763,CR7,CR9,E135,E140,E145,E175,MD82
 
CaptainJon
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RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:46 am

I never heard of the term ferry flight used before...what is it exactly?
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:49 am

Quoting CaptainJon (Reply 21):
I never heard of the term ferry flight used before...what is it exactly?

Moving the aircraft without passengers for a means other then revenue........I've done several and they can be a lot of fun. Very casual

[Edited 2007-07-02 00:52:37]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
flyboyseven
Posts: 803
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:24 pm

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:54 am

I read a book about a ferry flight to Hawaii in an Otter. It lasted around 24 hours. There was an airline pilot talking to him on the radio on his way to Honolulu, and on his way back the next day the Otter was still going. There was also only one pilot in the Otter.
As long as the number of take-offs equals the number of landings...you're doing fine.
 
Type-Rated
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Joined: Sun Sep 19, 1999 5:18 am

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:26 am

About a year ago, I saw two Qantas Dash 8's come thru HOU on their way to Oz. Now that's going to be a long flight!
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
Jpax
Posts: 715
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:01 am

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:32 am

Quoting PapaNovember (Reply 15):
Why was their altitude (the Navajo) only 6,000 ft. Wouldn't you want to be much, much higher!?

You would be screwed either way...although the extra height does give a few more minutes of trouble shooting time.  Wink
 
Tornado82
Topic Author
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:41 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 14):

It's a long term contract and I have been invited to do a flight..... which I might just do. But trust me, I'm getting a Business Class seat on Qantas for the trip home...!!

You're braver than me too then! I don't even like flying over lakes in a GA bird, let alone the Pacific.
 
CaptainJon
Posts: 546
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:21 am

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:15 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 22):
Moving the aircraft without passengers for a means other than revenue........I've done several and they can be a lot of fun. Very casual

Thanks! It does sound like they can be fun...More or less, it's the aviation equivalent of a road trip?
 
c680
Posts: 428
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 6:03 am

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:05 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 26):
I don't even like flying over lakes in a GA bird, let alone the Pacific.

Hmmmmm.......


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Michael Carter
View Large View Medium
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Photo © Chris Markerson



Yeah, give me the back end of the bus any day over *that*  sarcastic 
My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
 
Tornado82
Topic Author
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:11 pm

Quoting C680 (Reply 28):

Yeah, give me the back end of the bus any day over *that* sarcastic

If I had access to that I wouldn't be complaining.  Wink Although regardless I'm never a fan of flight when I can't see ground... that's just a a psychological thing.
 
c680
Posts: 428
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 6:03 am

RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:15 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 29):
Although regardless I'm never a fan of flight when I can't see ground... that's just a a psychological thing.

Rodger that.

It didn't work out too well for JFK Jr either....  Wow!
My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
 
n710ps
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RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:52 pm

At one point as a result of the fact my dad owns a fairly large freight forwarder and aircraft shipping company and I had an offer on the table to ferry a Cessna 310 from PBI to Karachi, Pakistan via a million diffrent way point but I backed out being it would take place in the fall last year and I was not keen on flying a pistion twin like that. I used to have issues with flying a Navajo on longer stretches around the Gulf Of Mexico. Those things are glorified rocks if you loose an engine.
There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
 
skibum9
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RE: Interesting Ferry Run.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:01 pm

Quoting CcrlR (Reply 17):
Any flying around 8,000 to 10,000 feet you need supplemental oxygen to survive at that altitude and you have to make certain that the engine will be able to operate at that altitude.

That's not true. The FARs state anything over 12,500 more than 30 minutes requires oxygen. I regularly haul around at 10,000 on long cross countries with no oxygen. The likely reason he was at 6000 is winds. The prevailing winds are less at a lower altitude. While this map is not from the actual Navajo flight, the charts today show that at 6000 ft. a flight would eventually gain a 20kt tail wind....

Big version: Width: 680 Height: 680 File size: 52kb
Winds 6000ft July 1, 2007


While at 9000ft. the same flight would encounter a 20 kt. headwind.

Big version: Width: 680 Height: 680 File size: 49kb
Winds 9000ft July 1,2007


The 40 kt difference (20 kts tail wind vs. 20 kt. headwind) can make a significant difference over a 12 hour trip. With this differnce, the Navajo could go 500 miles further in 12 hours at 6000 ft. vs. 9000 ft.
Tailwinds!!!