dl767captain
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Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:36 am

I was just trying to figure out how low cost carriers choose between airbus and Boeing, like why did southwest choose the 737 while jetblue and frontier went with the A320
 
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JBo
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:41 am

Because it's what they liked best?

Because one or the other offered the best incentive?

Because in the case of WN, the A320 did not yet exist when the airline started?
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:49 am

Actually, B6's original model called for 737s, but Boeing was hesitant to sell to them at anywhere near the price (relative to volume) that they wanted, due to a '90s-era philosophy of avoiding mass-exposure to startups.

Airbus stepped in with a sweetheart deal, plus support, plus co-marketing... and B6 never looked back.
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Observer
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:55 am

JetBlue was quoted in a long NY Times article as saying Boeing's arrogance at the time also played a role. Frontier was quoted in the same article with a similar complaint.
 
CruzinAltitude
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:07 am

Quoting Observer (Reply 3):
JetBlue was quoted in a long NY Times article as saying Boeing's arrogance at the time also played a role. Frontier was quoted in the same article with a similar complaint.

It would appear as if Boeing did a little bit of soul searching and moved more towards a customer focused sales strategy. Looking back you have to know it stings to see some many Airbus' with blue on the tail, and so many Airbus' with animals on the tail!
 
Mir
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:12 am

In the case of WN, the 320 wasn't around when they were getting their 737 Classics, so that was the only option. Then when it came to the 737NGs, fleet commonality was a big thing, so that pretty much ruled the 320 (or 319 as it would have been) out.

Quoting CruzinAltitude (Reply 4):
It would appear as if Boeing did a little bit of soul searching and moved more towards a customer focused sales strategy.

They did indeed.

-Mir
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ADent
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:21 am

F9 originally chose 737s.

I thought it was due in part to lower acquisition costs (ie A319s cheaper than 737s - which kinds of goes with Boeing's arrogance if they weren't cutting deals for startups).

With the US dollar tanking, Boeing should be in the driver seat on some orders now.
 
luvfa
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:25 am

Airtran however has gone the Boeing route with all their new deliveries are 737NGs.

For Jetblue it was a matter of economics. Their Airbus order lessened their start-up costs and they were a well funded airline to begin with.
 
dl767captain
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:42 am

what about skybus and virgin America?
 
ikramerica
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:59 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 6):
With the US dollar tanking, Boeing should be in the driver seat on some orders now.

This is the key reason. You can talk about arrogance all you want, but the dollar is at $1.35 to the euro or so right, but back then, the euro was much cheaper.

Combine that with Airbus offering very low pricing to grow their market share and Boeing being unable to produce enough planes after the failed ramp up that cost them billions, and F9 canceled their Boeing plans and went with Airbus.

I think the A320 is a better plane, but one reason the 737NG is selling so well right now is the dollar. Another reason is the backlog for A320s. But I think this confidence people have in the 737NG being able to compete forever is misplaced. The sooner Boeing can get the 797 to market, the better.
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mariner
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:18 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
Combine that with Airbus offering very low pricing to grow their market share and Boeing being unable to produce enough planes after the failed ramp up that cost them billions, and F9 canceled their Boeing plans and went with Airbus.

Sorry, not quite the case. What happened has been described by the then CEO, Sam Addoms.

Frontier had expected to be going with Boeing and had not even considered Airbus. However, Frontier was then a small start-up and Boeing showed no interest in a deal. They would certainly sell to Frontier, but only at a specific price, and with certain other conditions.

The price was rather more than Frontier had expected (or hoped?) to pay. So - after a lot of internal debate - they went to Airbus - who almost said "no".

Airbus said they had no interest in being used as leverage to get a better price (for Frontier) with Boeing. Frontier was able to persuade them of genuine interest and eventually a deal was done.

It was a good deal, but it wasn't an especially "low price" deal, as can be seen this week - that option prices negotiated with Airbus some while ago are rather more than Frontier thinks they should pay now.

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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:36 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):
It was a good deal, but it wasn't an especially "low price" deal, as can be seen this week - that option prices negotiated with Airbus some while ago are rather more than Frontier thinks they should pay now.

As the Euro goes higher, I believe this will be the case in a lot of camps.


However, with the current orders of the A319/A320 and 737 lines, how much wiggle room is there for companies to get deliveries within the next 3 years? What the Euro/Dollar ratio is,. and what it will be , is always fluctuating.
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OB1504
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:45 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
In the case of WN, the 320 wasn't around when they were getting their 737 Classics, so that was the only option.

What about the DC-9? Or did Douglas display the same attitude toward WN that Boeing displayed thirty years later to B6 and F9?

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 8):
what about skybus and virgin America?

I know that Skybus leased a few aircraft from Virgin America, so which aircraft were available to lease (and at what cost) seems to have influenced them.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
This is the key reason. You can talk about arrogance all you want, but the dollar is at $1.35 to the euro or so right, but back then, the euro was much cheaper.

Well, if you want to be nitpicky about it, the Euro never existed back then.  Silly
 
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:22 am

Quoting Observer (Reply 3):
JetBlue was quoted in a long NY Times article as saying Boeing's arrogance at the time also played a role. Frontier was quoted in the same article with a similar complaint.

and Phil Condit was eventually outed...although not soon enough.
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Viscount724
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:30 am

Since B6's strategy was to offer a higher quality inflight product than the typical low-cost carrier, the wider Airbus cabin was probably also a consideration, permitting either wider seats or a wider aisle.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:52 am

Quoting DL767captain (Thread starter):
why did southwest choose the 737 while jetblue and frontier went with the A320

Because in 1971 when Southwest started flying Airbus was a fledgeling company and did not even build the A320 for a another 15 years
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Mir
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:29 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
Since B6's strategy was to offer a higher quality inflight product than the typical low-cost carrier, the wider Airbus cabin was probably also a consideration, permitting either wider seats or a wider aisle.

Nah, if Boeing had actually pursued the sale, B6 would be flying 737s. The cabin width is a nice PR perk for Airbus, but economics still drive the deals.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 12):
What about the DC-9? Or did Douglas display the same attitude toward WN that Boeing displayed thirty years later to B6 and F9?

Southwest started off with the 732. As for why they did that as opposed to the DC-9, I don't know. But after that, the advantages of staying with the 737 were enormous.

-Mir
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aa757first
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting Observer (Reply 3):
JetBlue was quoted in a long NY Times article as saying Boeing's arrogance at the time also played a role. Frontier was quoted in the same article with a similar complaint.

I think I remember (not sure) this also happening during Spirit's purchase.

Quoting Luvfa (Reply 7):
Airtran however has gone the Boeing route with all their new deliveries are 737NGs.

ValuJet placed orders for MD-95s. After flight 592 and the AirTran takeover, the new company "inherited" the MD-95 orders, which later became Boeing 717s. Then the B737 order was probably not hard for Boeing to get after FL's luck with the B717s.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
Since B6's strategy was to offer a higher quality inflight product than the typical low-cost carrier, the wider Airbus cabin was probably also a consideration, permitting either wider seats or a wider aisle.

How many customers would book on the basis of aircraft type operating the flight. Probably about 2% outside of airliners.net.
 
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:32 pm

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 17):
How many customers would book on the basis of aircraft type operating the flight. Probably about 2% outside of airliners.net.

An NW station manager once told me that they were losing a fair amount of business traffic because of the pretty crappy WBC product on the DC-10s, as well as their reliability issues. The 330s fixed that, of course, but many of the higher-paying passengers do know what they're flying, and choose accordingly.

-Mir
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asuflyer05
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:36 pm

Some insight from Mr. Neeleman:

Quote:
"He [David Neeleman] had initial discussions with Boeing and Airbus. Then JetBlue negotiators told Boeing that it needed to come up with a better offer. Instead, Boeing tried to convince JetBlue to change the size of the airplane it was ordering. Ultimately, Neeleman decided to do business with Airbus on account of its superior offer and willingness to build the planes according to the specifications JetBlue wanted. Neeleman consummated the deal with a handshake. Then Neeleman telephoned Boeing to inform them.

'As soon as I called Boeing to tell them the deal was done,' Neeleman said, 'they wanted to reopen the deal. They wanted to give us the planes for the price we wanted.'

Neeleman reminded Boeing that he had told them the rules upfront. Boeing negotiators said they didn't know Neeleman was serious and as a result they had not given him their best and final offer. Boeing wanted a chance to submit a better offer...Boeing countered that it could save JetBlue millions of dollars if Neeleman simply would allow them to submit a counteroffer.

'No thank you,' Neeleman replied."

Benedict, Jeff. The Mormon Way of Doing Business: Leadership and Success, Through Faith and Family, 79-80. January 2007. Warner Business Books, New York.
 
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mariner
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:58 pm

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 17):
I think I remember (not sure) this also happening during Spirit's purchase.

Good memory. This thread disucsses it in some detail:
RE: Spirit's Aircraft Order Was Boeing's To Lose (by Greg Mar 31 2004 in Civil Aviation)

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laca773
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:38 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 18):
Quoting Aa757first (Reply 17):
How many customers would book on the basis of aircraft type operating the flight. Probably about 2% outside of airliners.net.

An NW station manager once told me that they were losing a fair amount of business traffic because of the pretty crappy WBC product on the DC-10s, as well as their reliability issues. The 330s fixed that, of course, but many of the higher-paying passengers do know what they're flying, and choose accordingly.

I agree with you completely. I have many friends who fly in the P/F, J/C and the great majority have told me they do pay attention to the type of a/c they fly on. In fact for some, it determines which airline they fly on-i.e., All my friends who fly J/C to LHR prefer BA over VS as they don't like flying on the 346 though some do like their Upper Class 'suites" more than the cabin offerings on BA. I only have one other friend who's very a/c knowledgeable and is a memeber here on a.net. Consequently, I feel a great number of people who fly premium do their research, not just based on cost and service but the equipment utilized on the routes they are flying on.

Did AS ever consider going with 32Xs prior to buying 73Gs?

LACA773
 
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:47 pm

When both US & HP decided to go with 32Xs, was this during the time the Boeing sales staff were walking, talking, and carrying around an arrogant philosophy? I find this topic very interesting as both US [much larger 73X fleet] & HP had sizeable 73X fleets then switched over to the 32Xs?

I'm also wondering about MX doing the same now as they too were a very large and loyal Boeing customer for years. For MX I thought the performance of the 73GXs was much better than the 32Xs especially with so many of their flights begining and terminating in MEX?

LACA773
 
aa757first
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:51 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 18):
An NW station manager once told me that they were losing a fair amount of business traffic because of the pretty crappy WBC product on the DC-10s, as well as their reliability issues. The 330s fixed that, of course, but many of the higher-paying passengers do know what they're flying, and choose accordingly.

You're comparing elite, WBC fliers to people deciding between flying AirTran, Southwest or jetBlue to FLL. PTVs and leather seats might be a deciding factor, the fact that the flight is going to be on a A320 is probably not going to be. Of course, price is what is most important to the majority of leisure consumers.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 20):
Good memory. This thread disucsses it in some detail:

RE: Spirit's Aircraft Order Was Boeing's To Lose (by Greg Mar 31 2004 in Civil Aviation)

Thanks for finding that thread. I didn't realize things went that badly.
 
Danny
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:53 pm

Shortly speaking:

Southwest did not have much choice other than DC-9. So they went 737.

Jetblue and Frontier - as mentioned above, at those times Boeing sales force was very arrogant so when Airbus offered superior aircraft at a good price, the went with it.
 
N1120A
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:08 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):

Nah, if Boeing had actually pursued the sale, B6 would be flying 737s. The cabin width is a nice PR perk for Airbus, but economics still drive the deals.

Given that the cabin width makes absolutely no difference in comfort levels, it really isn't much of a "perk". If anything, jetBlue must be looking back now and lamenting the decision almost as much as Boeing has, seeing that the 738 has lower operating costs, longer range and would not have put them in the same performance pickles as they have had at times with the A320. Also, during their days of 90%+ load factors, the extra 10 seats would have helped the revenue flow.

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
As for why they did that as opposed to the DC-9, I don't know.

It ended up benefiting them, as the 732 has a longer range. Also, the slightly larger seating capacity likely played a role.

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 17):
Then the B737 order was probably not hard for Boeing to get after FL's luck with the B717s.

Actually, Boeing and Airbus were both being heavily considered by FL and Boeing charged very hard for the order

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 17):

I think I remember (not sure) this also happening during Spirit's purchase.

Yes, but Spirit is one you can almost understand given their nature as a closely held airline and previous "go it cheap" mantra. Frontier and jetBlue were pure and simple f'ups by the Boeing team

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 21):

Did AS ever consider going with 32Xs prior to buying 73Gs?

I really doubt they gave them much consideration, given that they already had a very large fleet of 734s and a strong relationship with Boeing
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:30 pm

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 22):
When both US & HP decided to go with 32Xs, was this during the time the Boeing sales staff were walking, talking, and carrying around an arrogant philosophy? I find this topic very interesting as both US [much larger 73X fleet] & HP had sizeable 73X fleets then switched over to the 32Xs?

Dont forget that US-East and Boeing were not on the best of terms after a US 733 crashed. As for America West, they were a very early operator of the A320.....HP's original A320s were actually ordered by Pan Am who ordered 50 A320s to replace their 727 fleet. Pan Am never took delivery of the airplanes and the first five or six manufactured went to Braniff Two under leases from GPA. That did not work out very well as Braniff Two went out of business and the airplanes were parked (and additional new airplanes were being delivered to GPA without commitments from any airline). America West saw the opportunity and leased/acquired the subject airplanes. (I really cant remember how many airplanes were involved, I think about 15 or 20 A320s.) America West got a very good deal, and placed follow up orders for the A32X family as the airline grew and as America West replaced its initial fleet of 732As and some leased 733s.

Quoting LACA773 (Reply 22):
I'm also wondering about MX doing the same now as they too were a very large and loyal Boeing customer for years. For MX I thought the performance of the 73GXs was much better than the 32Xs especially with so many of their flights begining and terminating in MEX?

Airbus made a very aggressive offer to Mexicana back then, and even formed Mexibus, a special purpose leasing concern to lease/finance the initial A320s for the airline. Airbus worked very hard and was very innovative and did what it had to in order to establish itself in the market place. Also consider that when Mexicana ordered its first A320s, the 737NG was not yet available.
 
EI321
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:36 pm

There are tons of variables being discussed in this thread. But I think JBo sumarised it well at the beginning:

Quoting JBo (Reply 1):
Because it's what they liked best?

Because one or the other offered the best incentive?

Because in the case of WN, the A320 did not yet exist when the airline started?

These are very important factors IMO, particularly the deal that the manufacturer offers to a relativly new airline. I assume that new airilnes such as Air Asia, Skybus, Spicejet etc like flexibility.
 
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BNE
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:58 pm

Southwest originally looked at props instead of jets for their initial services between HOU-DAL-SAT; which are only about 250 miles apart. Boeing offerred them 3 brand new 737-200s.

From the book Nuts! Southwest Airlines' Crazy Recipe for Business and Personal Success (Paperback)

Quote:
With some new financing secured, Muse set out to buy airplanes. He negoitated a deal for 3 brand new 737-200s that Boeing hadn't been able to sell because of overproduction during the airline slump in the early 70s. Boeing offerred to sell the planes for $4 million each(comparable new aircraft would have cost $5 million apiece at that time) and finance 90 percent of the deal.
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keesje
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:04 pm

I think both took the best available aircraft.
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0newair0
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
Actually, Boeing and Airbus were both being heavily considered by FL...

Very True. The Ryan Air A320s to the West Coast and the Miami Air 737-800s were not run just because those were the only aircraft available. They were run for research.
"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
 
We're Nuts
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:29 pm

This thread is ridiculous. How many A320's were flying in 1971?
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747fan
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 31):
This thread is ridiculous. How many A320's were flying in 1971?

Very good point; there weren't even any A300's flying around yet! laughing 
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:55 pm

There was no Airbus commercia laircraft in 1971. The choice for WN was the 737 or DC-9.
 
pr1268
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 17):
How many customers would book on the basis of aircraft type operating the flight. Probably about 2% outside of airliners.net.

NZ felt compelled to replace their DC-10s with 747s in the early 1980s after public perception of the safety and reliability of the DC-10 soured horribly due to a string of crashes (including NZ's Flight 901 crash into Mt. Erebus). It wouldn't surprise me if that number was higher than 2%.

EDIT: I don't mean to badmouth the DC-10 - I personally feel it was the victim of some bad luck (and some egregious human errors).

[Edited 2007-07-03 18:14:59]
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PHLBOS
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:17 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
Southwest started off with the 732. As for why they did that as opposed to the DC-9, I don't know. But after that, the advantages of staying with the 737 were enormous.



Quoting BNE (Reply 28):
Southwest originally looked at props instead of jets for their initial services between HOU-DAL-SAT; which are only about 250 miles apart. Boeing offerred them 3 brand new 737-200s.

From the book Nuts! Southwest Airlines' Crazy Recipe for Business and Personal Success (Paperback)

Quote:
With some new financing secured, Muse set out to buy airplanes. He negoitated a deal for 3 brand new 737-200s that Boeing hadn't been able to sell because of overproduction during the airline slump in the early 70s. Boeing offerred to sell the planes for $4 million each(comparable new aircraft would have cost $5 million apiece at that time) and finance 90 percent of the deal.

Beat me to the punch. Big grin

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 17):
ValuJet placed orders for MD-95s. After flight 592 and the AirTran takeover, the new company "inherited" the MD-95 orders, which later became Boeing 717s. Then the B737 order was probably not hard for Boeing to get after FL's luck with the B717s.



Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 30):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
Actually, Boeing and Airbus were both being heavily considered by FL...

Very True. The Ryan Air A320s to the West Coast and the Miami Air 737-800s were not run just because those were the only aircraft available. They were run for research.

IIRC, FL's negative experience w/the wet-leased Ryan International (not to be confused w/RyanAir) A320s (truth be told, it was probably how Ryan Int. ran & took care of them more than the aircraft type itself) was one of the reasons why they stayed w/Boeing. As many already know, FL originally wanted the proposed 717-300 over the 737NG; but since there were no large orders for the 717 from other carriers (the equally-large TW order evaporated when AA bought them), Boeing pursuaded FL to give the 737 another look.

Another bonus advantage for FL to stay w/Boeing was because many pilots from the original FL (pre-J7 merger) already had prior experience w/the older 732; reduced transition-training costs than going w/a totally different aircraft type.
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EXAAUADL
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting BNE (Reply 28):
Southwest originally looked at props instead of jets for their initial services between HOU-DAL-SAT; which are only about 250 miles apart. Boeing offerred them 3 brand new 737-200s.

I think it was Electras cuz that is what Air Florida was flying...I think WN at foirst had 4 737-200s but one was returned, that is whwn the 15 minute turn got started.
 
antonovman
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:34 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
Given that the cabin width makes absolutely no difference in comfort levels

It makes a hell of a difference. Ask any passenger who has flown on both
 
LY4XELD
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting CruzinAltitude (Reply 4):
Looking back you have to know it stings to see some many Airbus' with blue on the tail, and so many Airbus' with animals on the tail!

Not as long as there are more out there with "Southwest" on the tail.
That's why we're here.
 
PennPal
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 24):
Jetblue and Frontier - as mentioned above, at those times Boeing sales force was very arrogant so when Airbus offered superior aircraft at a good price, the went with it.

Question: If the Airbus product is so "superior", why did jetBlue, Frontier, and Spirit all initially prefer the 737???  Confused
 
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:35 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 36):
I think it was Electras cuz that is what Air Florida was flying...I think WN at foirst had 4 737-200s but one was returned, that is whwn the 15 minute turn got started.

The Electra indeed was the plane that Herb had in mind for (originally called Air Southwest). In the Airways Classics Tribute to WN; it shows a color picture of Air Southwest's original white & Blue scheme... which actually bears a very close resemblence to Boeing's house colors of the 80s & 90s.

WN did start w/only 3 732s. A 4th was later added but then later returned due to financial reasons; WN's first profitable year wasn't until 2 years (1973) after it first started flying (1971).

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 33):
The choice for WN was the 737 or DC-9.

Wasn't the BAC-111 still available at the time?

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
Southwest started off with the 732. As for why they did that as opposed to the DC-9, I don't know. But after that, the advantages of staying with the 737 were enormous.

Due to WN being pleased w/the 732; they were the launch customers for the newer 733, 735 & 73G types.

One can only imagine what the plane manufacturing industry make-up would presently look like had WN opted for the DC-9 instead. Would MDD still be around?
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
NWA742
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 29):
I think both took the best available aircraft.

Of course you'd think that - simply because we're talking about an Airbus order over a Boeing order.

The fact is, incentives had everything to do with B6's decision - they were originally planning to go for 737s until Airbus offered them an unbeatable deal. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the A320 being a better aircraft for them. I know that's what you would like to believe, Keesje, but it's simply not the case.

Quoting Antonovman (Reply 37):
It makes a hell of a difference. Ask any passenger who has flown on both

I've flown on both plenty of times - it doesn't make a "hell of a difference" at all, and I'm a big tall guy, I would know. Sometimes the 737 feels better, and sometimes the A320 feels more spacious - but we're talking inches here, it isn't a hell of a difference, and the comfort comparisons between the 737 and A320 also depend heavily on the airline and how they choose to seat their aircraft.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
runga08
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:26 am

Who would've thought that even though Airbus almost said no, F9 turned out to be the launch customer for the A318. Quite funny...  Smile
 
irobertson
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RE: Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737

Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):

It was a good deal, but it wasn't an especially "low price" deal, as can be seen this week - that option prices negotiated with Airbus some while ago are rather more than Frontier thinks they should pay now.

And I find it interesting that two of these airlines (JetBlue and Frontier plus a hell of a lot of the legacy carriers) are now turning to Embraer for their short haul equipment. An E190 or 195 can comfortably haul as much as a 732 could and probably for a hell of a lot better price than Airbus or Boeing (though I don't know the numbers). Definitely fascinating.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 40):
Wasn't the BAC-111 still available at the time?

Indeed, thanks for remembering that! I'm not sure what the cost comparisons would have been like with the British aircraft and currency versus an American plane like the 732, but there were a fair number of US airlines flying the 1-11 at the time. A brief search turned up: Florida Express (1987), Allegheny, American Airlines (!), Mohawk, USAir (!), Braniff, Air Illinois, Northeastern (?), Pacific Express.