FFlyer
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Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:11 am

My friend told me about another story in Helsinki Sanomat today:

Finnair is not satisfied with their Embraers. Each delivery has been delayed for a month, there is a lack of spare parts, and the parts are of low quality. Factory support has not been what it should be. There has also been an occasion when two MLG tires have blown in landing due to problems in brakes.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:29 am

Strange, Flybe seems extremely happy:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...e-thrust-increase-maintenance.html

That said, I think there has been some supplier delays, and the Honeywell avionics suite is still not mature (as mentioned in the article above), but they are working on it.
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EFHK
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:59 am

I don't think the situation is as bad as Helsingin Sanomat makes it sound like to be, Finnair has (until now) expressed satisfaction with the E-jets, although yes there have been some issues which have been worked through. However, this is the first time I've heard them complaining publicly about the late deliveries and this spare part issue is new to me. Apparently these things are now causing problems as they've had to assign Airbuses on some flights that should've been operated by Embraers and this is creating staffing problems for the Airbus fleet.
One of the best places in the world: McDonald's in T2 at FRA.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:36 am

Quoting FFlyer (Thread starter):
Finnair is not satisfied with their Embraers.

If its not an Airbus, Finnair doesnt like it.........relax, that was intended as a joke, nothing more.

Seriously, the entry into service for the E-jets has not been trouble free, there have been several problem areas that Embraer has been working on.......but that is very different from a general disatisfaction with the E-jet. Late deliveries are problematic, especially when airlines have ambitious schedules planned for the busy summer travel season, but again thats not a problem with the design or performance of the airplane. But, as mentioned above, until now Finnair has not been vocal about any problems with the E-jets. Maybe the article did not get it quite right?
 
andaman
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:55 am

Quoting FFlyer (Thread starter):
My friend told me about another story in Helsinki Sanomat today:

Each delivery has been delayed for a month

This could be the reason why Finnair has been using their charter version 752's in the scheduled Europe-service this summer, they have done it occasionally before but never this often. Many passengers not too happy with that...
Chinese cookie in SFO: "You're doomed to a life of forever travelling abroad and to be able to afford it!"
 
AA737-823
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:22 am

Doesn't sound like too big a deal to me.
United had tons of trouble with their 777 entry into servcie back in 1995... those airplanes went on the be great aircraft, and very reliable.
Teething problems, I project.
 
Tancrede
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:11 pm

Quoting Andaman (Reply 4):
This could be the reason why Finnair has been using their charter version 752's in the scheduled Europe-service this summer, they have done it occasionally before but never this often. Many passengers not too happy with that...

Instead, Helsingin Sanomat said that they were using the Airbus to replace the E-jets, cancelling in some cases Airbus crew’s holydays.
 
Barbro
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:33 pm

From what I've heard, there's been a lot of problems on winter-ops, but Finnair has been discreet and patient with the manufacturer. Didn't Air Canada complain about the type's winter-reliability also?
Anyways, teething problems or not, the economics of the type should be good, Finnair being able to open up new destinations and to pump up frequencies on old routes with the type.
 
Finnaviation
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:40 pm

Quoting Andaman (Reply 4):
This could be the reason why Finnair has been using their charter version 752's in the scheduled Europe-service this summer, they have done it occasionally before but never this often

752's are used on scheduled routes because of high demand BUD, CPH, BCN etc.
 
brilondon
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:11 pm

You will always find detractors for anything. I like the EMB 170/190 jets. They are comfortable and look good.  twocents   thumbsup 
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EFHK
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:50 pm

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 6):
Instead, Helsingin Sanomat said that they were using the Airbus to replace the E-jets, cancelling in some cases Airbus crew's holydays.

Yes, the European 752 routes have been replacing Airbus capacity which can then replace Embraer capacity. But as said above, it was due to high demand (and lower charter demand) that the 752 started operating European routes in the first place.
One of the best places in the world: McDonald's in T2 at FRA.
 
Super98
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:16 pm

Bet they now wished they had stayed with Douglas products, as in Boeing should have made 717-100's and everyone would be happy now.
 
Maersk737
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:22 pm

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 9):
I like the EMB 170/190 jets. They are comfortable and look good.

That's not enough for Finnair, or any other carrier for that matter.

Even though I also find it nice looking Big grin

Cheers


Peter
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MATURRO727
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:27 pm

hey.



Here in Colombia theres 2 airlines, Satena and AeroRepublica that owns E-170 and E-190 respectively, although Satena only has 1 and not sure on AeroRepublica but i think they might have by now 3 or so, anyway they haven't expressed any trouble with their E-Jet's although they are relatively new, in the other hand i've herd that copa had experienced lots of trouble with their E-Jets so... but no oficial words from CM about the trouble tough i've herd from various firends that there has been several delays and cancelation of flights or so but that was long time ago the same herd from Jetblue.

anyway regards my friends

Saludos desde la capital.


MATURRO727
 
FlyingAY
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:49 pm

The mentioned Helsingin Sanomat article is also available online (only in Finnish, sorry):
http://www.hs.fi/talous/artikkeli/Uu...a+harmia+Finnairille/1135228467965

The only direct quote from Finnair comes from Hannes Bjorström:

The Finnair flight ops leader Hannes Bjorström mentions that: "We've had major problems especially with the subcontractors of Embraer. The quality of many spare parts has been poor."

The article does not mention anything about winter operations, but states that late deliveries and the spare part chain have been causing problems.
 
okay
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:47 pm

I think these problems will be solved. When I was working at HEL and I had an E-jet boarding coming up, I knew it is not gonna go easily, as at least winter 2006 was difficlult from dispatching point of view for the E-jet. But my colleague, a lady who had been working there for over thirty years, said that yes yes, always the same thing with a new a/c type, like the MD80, and then she would "drift away" in her memories of MD80 a/c arriving to AY and how she used to be a "flying agent" lol..Well that is off topic, but my point it that every new plane comes with some problems, especially in a country like Finland, where the conditions are extreme during the winter time. AY technical department has always been innovative to solve these, though (ie.MD80 initial problems). And we have to remember, E-jet has latin blood, it is not used to the cold winter. Not yet, that is  Smile

With Regards, okAY
 
airbuster
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:44 pm

There was an extensive artical in Flight International about 1,5 month ago on the E170-195 with a in depth look at FLYBE, Finnair and LOT and how they have coped with the entry in to service of the type.

As is well known, there have been software problems with the jet and finnair experienced problems with the cargo doors during the colder months of the year.

I do recall reading that factory support was good though so i suppose there are still some teething problems and finnair as one of the first customers is experiencing these. The technical fleet manager of Finnair states that the airline has been pleased with the performance of the E-JET and that the teething problems were greater than expected but that embrear works hard to fix a problem. that said i don't see finnair being really unhappy with the jets and i find it highly unlikely that they would use charter 757's to replace these.

Flybe's dispatch reliability rate is around 98,5%....now who's going to call that bad.....?

On a side note...a friend of mine told me that KLM cityhopper is having a extensive look at the acft as a replacement type for the ageing F100...does anyone have more info on this?

rgds

AB

[Edited 2007-07-04 14:46:43]
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
mrocktor
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:58 pm

Quoting FFlyer (Thread starter):
Finnair is not satisfied with their Embraers. Each delivery has been delayed for a month

We hate your planes! Oh, and we are not getting them fast enough!

Seriously, now, Embraer has been having serious production issues (the company had to take over Kawasaki Heavy Industry's share of the manufacturing due to several problems). It is not surprising that deliveries are delayed. There are problems, they have to be worked out - but that is just life.
 
B6ramprat
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:15 pm

Our E 190's suck. There is always a MX problem with them ranging from a-z. I'm not a MX tech but I do park these things when they have to come back to the gate. Inside the belly the flooring is already coming up and some of them are only a month or two old. Thin meltal lining folds up to make this sharp point that u cut the crap out of your leg on. It extremely poorly designed from a loading point of view and I know that the MX on them is contstant. There is always something wrong two to three times a day on them and from talking to a friend of mine at Air Canada, they've been have problems as well.
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lightsaber
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:19 am

I love the E-jets (concept, plan, engineering...) But, I've talked before on how the PW2000 was less economical on the 752 than the RB211 due to reliability issues (despite having a killer fuel burn advantage). We've talked about the JT9D's poor reliability grounding 747's and turning PanAm's introduction from profitable to a money pit. Reliability gets expensive very quickly if its not there.

So Embraer has issues. It sounds like they're working on it. They need to keep working on it. But they are a great concept. But the window to fix the problems is closing (if they want more orders)

Quoting Airbuster (Reply 16):

Flybe's dispatch reliability rate is around 98,5%....now who's going to call that bad.....?

Me. Or about any airline. It needs to be mid 99% or better.

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 17):
We hate your planes! Oh, and we are not getting them fast enough!

 rotfl 

Exactly. They bad, they're awful. Now give me a discount on more.  Wink

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 17):
Seriously, now, Embraer has been having serious production issues (the company had to take over Kawasaki Heavy Industry's share of the manufacturing due to several problems). It is not surprising that deliveries are delayed. There are problems, they have to be worked out - but that is just life.

I never understood the Kawasaki arrangement in Brazil... (From a business perspective...) Hopefully they can turn around production.

I remain a huge fan of the E-jets (despite no Pratts).  Wink

Quoting Airbuster (Reply 16):
The technical fleet manager of Finnair states that the airline has been pleased with the performance of the E-JET and that the teething problems were greater than expected but that embrear works hard to fix a problem. that said i don't see finnair being really unhappy with the jets and i find it highly unlikely that they would use charter 757's to replace these.

I wonder if there will be any redesigns of the E-jets. E.g., New cargo floor arrangements (I keep reading about bent metal cutting mechanics, and any aircraft with lower lobe "head knockers" gets a bad rap. Hence why I wear a bump cap on the flight line.)

Lightsaber
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airmaillabel
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:38 am

On 18 July 2006, I flew from Oslo to Helsinki on a Finnair ERJ170-100ST (OH-LEI) and it looked like a very nicely designed aircraft to me. But of course this is not a professional's opinion, I'm just a traveller and that's my only relation with aviation (except being a member of airliners.net). But of course it was almost one year ago and the aircraft was 1 year younger then  Smile

PS: The Finnair stewardess' uniforms that I saw on that flight were the best I ever saw, which has no relation with the topic of this forum.
 
andaman
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RE: Finnair Unhappy With E-170/E-190

Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:24 am

Quoting Airmaillabel (Reply 20):
On 18 July 2006, I flew from Oslo to Helsinki on a Finnair ERJ170-100ST (OH-LEI) and it looked like a very nicely designed aircraft to me. But of course this is not a professional's opinion, I'm just a traveller and that's my only relation with aviation (except being a member of airliners.net). But of course it was almost one year ago and the aircraft was 1 year younger then

PS: The Finnair stewardess' uniforms that I saw on that flight were the best I ever saw, which has no relation with the topic of this forum.

I like those Embraers too, though AY's E-jet interior looks bit like commuter train...
Still completely off the topic: I agree, AY's uniforms look good, few years back some French magazine ranked different airline uniforms and AY become best European... and of course French knows best these things  Wink

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