boeing743
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:16 am

Flights At STL

Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:20 am

Recently I looked up the STL airport website. It was new look and it is very nice easy to go around on site. I came to the terminal map and noticed that many gates are open compared to past when it was very full and a lot of traffics into STL. Since AA bought TWA, the STL was somewhat very busy and even STL building the new terminal E for SWA and another airlines. Now, Most of gates are open in B and D. The SWA use partly of new building while some of gates at E are available. Also many of AA does not going thru STL (not sure of exact number but probably about 300 to 400 daily?)

I am wonder if the traffic would pick up at STL or still same as now? Any information or comments are welcome.
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1209
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

RE: Flights At STL

Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:07 am

As you mentioned there are a slew of empty gates at STL, and maybe one of the locals in STL can pipe in here with some hard info but here is what I can throw out there from my experience with Lambert...

Concourse A is pretty much jam-packed, with NW, CO, UA, US, AC, and DL keeping the 16 gates there hopping for most of the day. Midwest is there as well, not sure of their gate assignment though.

Concourse B was recently occupied by AirTran, who have leased one gate and are rumored to be possibly leasing another. B could probably take up to six jetways for a 717/73G type aircraft, which could make for a nice little focus operation if FL decided that STL could support that type of growth. Concourse B also happens to be the most convenient to the main terminal, with the shortest walks involved for passengers.

Concourse C is occupied by AA, and they currently operate about 210? flights per day, of which 60 or so are mainline. They operate from eight mainline gates on the north side of C, with 10 RJ gates on the south side. There are currently 10-12 unused gates at the eastern end of C for potential expansion by American, but doubtful. Save for some mainline/RJ tweaking, I think they are capped out at STL. I don't keep up much with the Regions situation, so I don't know the current status of the prop flights..

Concourse D can accommodate 15 or so gates, many of which were removed after the AA drawdown several years ago, and while it is Lambert's most recent addition to the main terminal it is also the least functional of the four concourses. Dark, drab, long walks (because the moving sidewalks were frequently inop), no amenities to speak of. Originally built for Ozark in '83 or '84, IIRC it is currently the occupant of only one carrier, Frontier, who leases the gate closest to the main terminal. The rest of D is a wasteland...

Concourse E, is actually not a concourse but an actual separate terminal whose main occupant is Southwest Airlines. Built at a cost of less than $100M, it was completed in 1998 and has 12 gates for WN with three additional gates to the west which have Customs/Immigration capability and is primarily used for charters. Southwest currently uses only 7 of the 12 gates available to them for their 65-70 daily flights, leaving room for future expansion if traffic increases. When the terminal was originally planned, STL was to become a major city for WN, but declining passenger numbers later scaled back those plans, but the terminal design and ultimate capacity was kept in place. Certainly the nicest of the facilities at STL, if not the most spartan it has a considerable amount of glass and very little clutter. High ceilings give it a very spacious feel...

Traffic at STL continues to grow at a steady rate, and I personally could see an increase of maybe 15-20 mainline flights per day combined over the next several years. As far as the facilities, most of the concourses were done in the late '70's and save for some minor cosmetic work they are pretty much the same as they were when the double-decking was started in 1977. If and when the MOANG ever decides to move I would like to see all the carriers currently in Concourse A temporarily located to the eastern end of C and/or D and take a wrecking ball to A and see a new concourse built to the west, accessible with a People Mover, ala TPA with 20-25 common-use gates. After moving all of the original carriers back to the New "A", I would personally take a sledge and pull down D myself. When that POS was built it ruined what little character Lambert had left. It was nice to drive down I-70 and actually see airplanes parked at the concourses instead of a long blob of concrete blocking your view....

Sorry, I will get off of my nostalgic soapbox now...
 
moman
Posts: 708
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:17 am

RE: Flights At STL

Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:54 am

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 1):
Traffic at STL continues to grow at a steady rate, and I personally could see an increase of maybe 15-20 mainline flights per day combined over the next several years. As far as the facilities, most of the concourses were done in the late '70's and save for some minor cosmetic work they are pretty much the same as they were when the double-decking was started in 1977. If and when the MOANG ever decides to move I would like to see all the carriers currently in Concourse A temporarily located to the eastern end of C and/or D and take a wrecking ball to A and see a new concourse built to the west, accessible with a People Mover, ala TPA with 20-25 common-use gates. After moving all of the original carriers back to the New "A", I would personally take a sledge and pull down D myself. When that POS was built it ruined what little character Lambert had left. It was nice to drive down I-70 and actually see airplanes parked at the concourses instead of a long blob of concrete blocking your view....

I was in STL yesterday. At the end of the ticket hall are drawings showing the planned changes to the airport. Unfortunately, most of the changes seem to be in the ticketing hall, dropoff area, and security checkpoint. I didn't see any changes to the gates.

A is jam packed and some of the carriers should move to B/D (maybe DL & NW).

C is just as you described it, but looking very busy these days. Still a lot of gates past C24 that can be used for future expansion.
AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 1973
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:02 am

Gotta peak at some illustration of the proposed changes coming up. Gate areas will mainly be changing of colors. Primarily the dark ceilings will be painted/changed to white. The major changes will be mainly centered in the Main Terminal itself and not the concourses. Also heard a rumor that the D concourse will NOT see any improvements. Doesn't make any sense, hope that is a false rumor.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1696
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:26 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:23 am

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 3):
Gotta peak at some illustration of the proposed changes coming up. Gate areas will mainly be changing of colors. Primarily the dark ceilings will be painted/changed to white. The major changes will be mainly centered in the Main Terminal itself and not the concourses. Also heard a rumor that the D concourse will NOT see any improvements. Doesn't make any sense, hope that is a false rumor.

You are correct, sir. The D concourse will not see any improvements simply because it is not used. Makes sense to me.

Quoting MoMan (Reply 2):
I was in STL yesterday. At the end of the ticket hall are drawings showing the planned changes to the airport. Unfortunately, most of the changes seem to be in the ticketing hall, dropoff area, and security checkpoint. I didn't see any changes to the gates.

As previously mentioned, the gate areas will be pretty much paint changes. Going from a chocolate brown to a white will do wonders, or so I would think. One big change around the airport in general is that the purple carpet will go everywhere but the D concourse. Too bad.

I am pretty sure a press release is coming soon on this issue. Stay tuned.
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 1973
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:37 am

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 4):
One big change around the airport in general is that the purple carpet will go everywhere but the D concourse. Too bad.

Makes no sense. You'd think they would make the changes to attract airlines, not deter them.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
moman
Posts: 708
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:17 am

RE: Flights At STL

Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:49 am

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 5):
Makes no sense. You'd think they would make the changes to attract airlines, not deter them.

I'm sure that Dolliole and Co. would be happy to renovate 'D' if there is demand for those gates. Until the demand appears, the best bet is to just leave them alone.
AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
 
mrstl
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:58 am

RE: Flights At STL

Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting MoMan (Reply 6):
I'm sure that Dolliole and Co. would be happy to renovate 'D' if there is demand for those gates. Until the demand appears, the best bet is to just leave them alone.

The airport was able to cough up the 2 million to redo the jetways for AirTran pretty quickly I assume the same would be done for this situation. Plus we have that big pad of concrete to pay off which I have yet to land on.

I was under the impression WN was using 8 gates now for their 73 flight, maybe the absent Atrude777 could shed some light?

Midwest is operating out of the D/E concourse I have seen it numbered both ways. Or at least this was the case as of recently.

The new security checkpoint at A is much better than what previously existed so there is hope this terminal remodel will bring some welcomed changes.
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 1973
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 7):
Plus we have that big pad of concrete to pay off which I have yet to land on.

Don't forget about the new pad they are replacing for the cargo carriers on the north side. (Twy F) Good thing they are taking care of those ten or so daily flights which have nearly zero chance of increasing in number.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
atrude777
Posts: 4258
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:50 am

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 7):
I was under the impression WN was using 8 gates now for their 73 flight, maybe the absent Atrude777 could shed some light?

Midwest is operating out of the D/E concourse I have seen it numbered both ways. Or at least this was the case as of recently.

I am not THAT absent  Silly

WN is using officially 7 gates, E-4. E-6, E-8, E-10, E-12, E-14, and E-16 for everyday use, when we hit high peaks or delays we will spill over to E-18 and E-20. usually for RON for the nights.

E-22 and E-24 were sold back to STL.

Ever since YX moved back to E, I have always seen them at E-33 unless one day they switched to D and you saw it, I have not seen it.

I believe now that we gained 2 extra flights, we may have to utilize E-18 a bit more.

I am looking forward and hoping to see WN add more flights at STL, WN as far as I understand is very pleased with STL operations and would like to add more in the fall and maybe base another aircraft at STL, if I understand we have 6 aircrafts "based" in STL...At least for RON.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
boeing743
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:16 am

RE: Flights At STL

Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:24 am

hey atrude777, I did post this forum because I know that you would reply to this  smile  .

Since that everybody said that A is already too over crowded, some of airlines in terminal A should think about move some of airlines to B so that some day they can expand rather than over crowded in Terminal A. I am wonder if SWA has a good passengers loads that would be good enough for SWA to add some flights out of STL?
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1209
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

RE: Flights At STL

Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:52 am

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 7):
Midwest is operating out of the D/E concourse I have seen it numbered both ways. Or at least this was the case as of recently.



Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 9):
Ever since YX moved back to E, I have always seen them at E-33 unless one day they switched to D and you saw it, I have not seen it.

Thanks for the corrections, didn't know that they had moved to that end.

Quoting MoMan (Reply 2):
I was in STL yesterday. At the end of the ticket hall are drawings showing the planned changes to the airport. Unfortunately, most of the changes seem to be in the ticketing hall, dropoff area, and security checkpoint. I didn't see any changes to the gates.

The $100M or so being spent for the renovations to the security checkpoints, baggage claim and pick up areas will be most welcome. I'm still not sold on the "atrium" though.....  scratchchin 
 
jetjeanes
Posts: 897
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:42 am

RE: Flights At STL

Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:02 pm

boy your not kidding driveing on i-70 ,you cant see anything like you could years ago..
i can see for 80 miles
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1209
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

RE: Flights At STL

Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:35 pm

Quoting JetJeanes (Reply 12):
boy your not kidding driveing on i-70 ,you cant see anything like you could years ago..

Before D was constructed, all you had to deal with was the Air Freight buildings and the TWA hangar. And if you were lucky you would see an Ozark FH-227 or Frontier CV-580 take off from runway 35...
 
teo747
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 2:44 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:41 pm

I flew out of STL on F9 back in May without knowing beforehand that they have Concourse D literally all to themselves...it was a bit strange to walk up and down the length of the concourse and find it completely deserted other than that one gate! I've also flown out of Concourse A on UA, which was completely packed. Interesting that one concourse can be so busy and another one totally empty!
 
mrstl
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:58 am

RE: Flights At STL

Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:40 am

Quick AA schedule updates (that I have noticed) for STL eff 09/05

STL-DAL --> 5x daily to 0x??
DAL-MCI --> to 8x daily???
STL-SGF-->1x daily to 2x
STL-CLT -->3x daily to 4x -- Wachovia Securities/Bof A
STL-TUL-->2x daily to 3x -- Enterprise/Vanguard-Alamo, National
STL-MSY-->3x daily to 4x
STL-EWR--> 5x daily to 6x
STL-DAY-->2x daily to 3x
STL-CID-->2x daily to 3x-- previously mentioned
STL-DEN goes to 3x from 4x- Frontier looks better to me every day on this route

No FLL, TPA or RSW additions that I have seen, also MCO goes to 2x 09/05 then back to 3x in December
LAX stays 5x MD-80
SFO 2xMD-80(1), 757(1)
SEA 2xMD-80 So far RDU/SAT/AUS and BOS keeps their MD-80 frequencies
 
stlgph
Posts: 8929
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:49 am

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 15):
STL-DAL --> 5x daily to 0x??

5x daily ERJ on Trans States.


Also, run with this all you want to, kids.

Two to three years ...

Trans States = out
American Eagle = in

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 7):

Putting AirTran in the B concourse was just stupid. They should have gone to D.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
atrude777
Posts: 4258
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 15):

and all these additions are RJ's right? Which actually isn't to bad, I can fly for free on the RJ's out of STL just not AA mainline, wonderful heh?  Silly


Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
mrstl
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:58 am

RE: Flights At STL

Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 16):
Two to three years ...

Trans States = out
American Eagle = in

Not suprising since AMR owns 10 of the ER145's and leases them to Trans States.


Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 17):
and all these additions are RJ's right? Which actually isn't to bad, I can fly for free on the RJ's out of STL just not AA mainline, wonderful heh?


Yes all RJ's

Quoting STLGph (Reply 16):
Putting AirTran in the B concourse was just stupid. They should have gone to D.

AA has to fill C first
 
stlgph
Posts: 8929
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 18):
AA has to fill C first

?

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 18):
Not suprising since AMR owns 10 of the ER145's and leases them to Trans States.

It'd be really nice if they'd ... well ... show them some tender loving care.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
September11
Posts: 3293
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Flights At STL

Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 4):
One big change around the airport in general is that the purple carpet will go everywhere but the D concourse.

ahh purple carpet in crapped concourses, good memories
Airliners.net of the Future
 
ultrapig
Posts: 568
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:38 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:39 am

STL suffers for several reasons:

First, The City of Saint Louis is a county surrounded by the County of St. Louis. Lambert airport is in the County but since it was founed in the twenties is actually owned by the City of St. Louis which makes it into a highly poliitcal operation where flunies are given jobs.

Second, trhe airport was run for many years by "Colonel Leonard Griggs" who dispite his sparkling repualtion and the fact that until the end of the TWA era, the airport actually made money which went into the operating budget of the City, couldn't seem to keep the bathrooms clean, the lights on and the roof from leaking.

Third, the airport is landlocked-not quite like Midway but any expansion means taring down houses. The metro area should have built a new airport int he 80's as planned accross the river in Illinois but Missour politicans blocked it.

Fourth, the terminal and most importantly the highway accesses are tightly congested.

Fifth, the new runway which was the most expensive project in St. Louis history (not just airport history) probably will eventaully be needed but is now hardly used.

Sixth, The city has a great geographical location but the metro population is static and not quite large enough to maintain a hub.

frankly the loss of TWA and the de-hubbing by American makes it very difficult to fly place for the day-something which always made this an attractive city. While there are still many non stop flights there are far fewer and as we all know conencting makes everything more difficult than it used to.
 
stlgph
Posts: 8929
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting Ultrapig (Reply 21):
Sixth, The city has a great geographical location but the metro population is static and not quite large enough to maintain a hub.

Memphis, Cincinnati, Salt Lake City, Cleveland...

There just isn't an airline out there with operations that need St. Louis Lambert for anything.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
malaysia
Posts: 2615
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:26 am

RE: Flights At STL

Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:55 am

Quoting Teo747 (Reply 14):
it was a bit strange to walk up and down the length of the concourse and find it completely deserted other than that one gate

I feel that way about the gates that DL abandoned in DFW, reminds me of D in STL as well too. STL is sad and its my birthplace, and I flew in on Ozark and TWA all the time. I have never even flown AA to STL at all, except DL or WN
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 1973
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 16):
Quoting MrSTL (Reply 7):

Putting AirTran in the B concourse was just stupid. They should have gone to D.

Smarter move going to B. For one thing, I'm hearing that D will NOT see improvements in the upcoming $100 million upgrade. Wacky, but true. Most likely, AirTran would have been placed right next to Frontier if they went to D. That would have been intrusive to Frontier expanding. For a mini hub, B is the best choice.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
stl1326
Posts: 392
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:07 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 15):
Quick AA schedule updates (that I have noticed) for STL eff 09/05

STL-DAL --> 5x daily to 0x??
DAL-MCI --> to 8x daily???
STL-SGF-->1x daily to 2x
STL-CLT -->3x daily to 4x -- Wachovia Securities/Bof A
STL-TUL-->2x daily to 3x -- Enterprise/Vanguard-Alamo, National
STL-MSY-->3x daily to 4x
STL-EWR--> 5x daily to 6x
STL-DAY-->2x daily to 3x
STL-CID-->2x daily to 3x-- previously mentioned
STL-DEN goes to 3x from 4x- Frontier looks better to me every day on this route

No FLL, TPA or RSW additions that I have seen, also MCO goes to 2x 09/05 then back to 3x in December
LAX stays 5x MD-80
SFO 2xMD-80(1), 757(1)
SEA 2xMD-80 So far RDU/SAT/AUS and BOS keeps their MD-80 frequencies

Are these updates not loaded on aa.com yet? Also, I think SEA loses a frequency when MCO gains the 3 flight.
 
ExpressJet_ERJ
Posts: 677
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 9:31 am

RE: Flights At STL

Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:11 am

The route upgrades. Are they on ERJ145s or on ERJ140s? Just curious if CHQ or TSA is getting the new flights. CHQ had 15 planes and last 3 months there has only been 14 lines of flying out of STL.
ETOPS...Engines Turn Or People Swim
 
mrstl
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:58 am

RE: Flights At STL

Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting Stl1326 (Reply 25):
Are these updates not loaded on aa.com yet? Also, I think SEA loses a frequency when MCO gains the 3 flight.

No AA.com is usually updated overnight, Expedia is showing the flights though. You are correct we will lose the SEA frequency as we do every year in December.

Quoting ExpressJet_ERJ (Reply 26):
The route upgrades. Are they on ERJ145s or on ERJ140s? Just curious if CHQ or TSA is getting the new flights. CHQ had 15 planes and last 3 months there has only been 14 lines of flying out of STL.

Looks like some to both.
 
stl1326
Posts: 392
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:07 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:09 am

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 15):
No FLL, TPA or RSW additions that I have seen, also MCO goes to 2x 09/05 then back to 3x in December

Don't quote me on this but I think MAH said that FLL would be returning this winter and I would venture to say that RSW and TPA will gain a frequency as well, like they have for the past 2-3 years.
 
stl1326
Posts: 392
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:07 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:25 pm

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 15):
STL-DAL --> 5x daily to 0x??

I guess they are finally giving up. STL-DAL is no longer bookable after the first week in September.
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2820
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:11 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 16):
Also, run with this all you want to, kids.

Two to three years ...

Trans States = out
American Eagle = in

Our contract runs a lot longer than two to three years. We've been doing flights for CHQ out of here as well recently because they're stretched too thin.
DMI
 
stlgph
Posts: 8929
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:20 pm

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 30):

Well, it's 2007 and Trans State's renewal with TWA wasn't signed too far off before the buy out from American. So, in 3 years, you're looking at 2010, that'll be right at about that point.

BTW, you didn't do a STL - IND - STL - PIT turn a few weeks ago did you?
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2820
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:24 pm

TSA has to my knowledge, extended that contract. They're pretty secretive around here so we really don't know what's going on. I find it hard to imagine that AMR would want more flying done by eagle when are costs are lower.

As far as the route, nope. I'm still in the sim.
DMI
 
stlgph
Posts: 8929
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:34 pm

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 32):
I find it hard to imagine that AMR would want more flying done by eagle when are costs are lower.

Interesting you say that since the Eagle folk say their costs are lower.

You ladies all fight amongst yourselves and call me when it's over  Wink

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 32):
As far as the route, nope. I'm still in the sim.

Good luck on all that.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
jetjeanes
Posts: 897
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:42 am

RE: Flights At STL

Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:35 pm

I know stl to dal is gone, but stl did have a second airport built across the river in Illinois and is or was a decent deserrted airport. All that money waisted to build it and take a relief off lambert was a joke. Lambert served a great purpose when Twa was alive and made a decent hub. I just cant see anyone today moveing in and makeing a hub out of it.

About the best they can do is bulldoze the old thing and find a location for a smaller more practical airport.
i can see for 80 miles
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2820
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:59 pm

I know there's more to it than just the money that the idiots up front are making, but theirs are paid way better than ours.
DMI
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 1973
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:55 am

Quoting JetJeanes (Reply 34):
but stl did have a second airport built across the river in Illinois and is or was a decent deserrted airport. All that money waisted to build it and take a relief off lambert was a joke.

It is a shame, but timing is everything, as they say, and timing of both projects was poor. Nobody knew what the future held. W1W and BLV were good ideas at the time of their genesis.

Hindsight can be a b**** sometimes.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
jman40
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:50 am

RE: Flights At STL

Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:21 am

Quoting Ultrapig (Reply 21):
Fifth, the new runway which was the most expensive project in St. Louis history (not just airport history) probably will eventaully be needed but is now hardly used.

I was in STL last summer for the first time in years, and the new runway (11/29) took me by surprise. From what I read here, it isn't used much. Are there any operations/circumstances in which it is beneficial? Or is it sitting there waiting for traffic to pick up?
 
moman
Posts: 708
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:17 am

RE: Flights At STL

Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:33 am

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 36):
It is a shame, but timing is everything, as they say, and timing of both projects was poor. Nobody knew what the future held. W1W and BLV were good ideas at the time of their genesis.

Neither idea was overly genius, but the BLV idea was worse.

BLV never worked as a reliever. Anyone who lives in the STL market knows there is only two reasons to drive across the Mississippi: to get shot or to go to the casinos. Granted, East STL isn't what it used to be, but perceptions die hard. Plus it's a good 30 minutes from downtown. The only thing BLV did was take available funds from the gov't and build a terminal on the NE side of Scott Air base. I flew Pan Am to BLV once, and while it was a good experience overall, the cost savings was not worth it. Plus there is just not a preponderance of southern Illinoisans dying to go places.

Quoting Jman40 (Reply 37):
I was in STL last summer for the first time in years, and the new runway (11/29) took me by surprise. From what I read here, it isn't used much. Are there any operations/circumstances in which it is beneficial? Or is it sitting there waiting for traffic to pick up?

It's waiting for traffic that will likely never come. The problem was that the runways in STL weren't far enough apart to allow simultaneous IFR approaches - hence the need for W1W since operations slowed to a crawl under IFR, and this was certainly not conductive to a large hub. Now that TWA is gone, it's easy to criticize the project, but it was oft-crtiticized from day one, and I recall the opposition back in the 87-89 timeframe. The Colonel and co. moved forward even though the terminal facilities continued to deteriorate.
AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
 
mrstl
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:58 am

RE: Flights At STL

Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:54 am

Quoting MoMan (Reply 38):
It's waiting for traffic that will likely never come.

The traffic will come, it will take time though. I saw Senator Kit Bond at the airport this morning, I noticed his name was not on the PR AA sent out about their overwhelming China route support. With Claire McCaskill trying to gain support for a bill to charge AA for their 9/11 Federal Aid unless the FA recall is extended to 10 years and Kit Bond's maneuvers with the Wright Amendment I'm not sure how AA feels about STL- however I think all of the above were and are justified.

The airport was a zoo this morning, granted I left from C2. I noticed the AirTran line was looooong with only one agent working the counter. The whole planes worth of people could of have been in the line- looked kind of like a group leaving.

The PR was sent out about STL increased frequencies:
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070716/lam157.html?.v=6

[Edited 2007-07-17 02:54:49]
 
777STL
Posts: 2770
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RE: Flights At STL

Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:02 am

Quoting JetJeanes (Reply 34):
I know stl to dal is gone, but stl did have a second airport built across the river in Illinois and is or was a decent deserrted airport. All that money waisted to build it and take a relief off lambert was a joke. Lambert served a great purpose when Twa was alive and made a decent hub. I just cant see anyone today moveing in and makeing a hub out of it.

That second airport is MidAmerica in Belleville. First they were going to become a strong alternative to STL for pax traffic, during the glory days of TW. Now that KSTL is drastically underused with the pullback of '03, they're trying to fashion themselves into some kind of "world cargo hub". So far they've had a handful DC10s running a one-time contract hauling seed.

Nevermind the fact that BLV is too distant from anything to be a "world cargo hub". It wouldn't work for the package carriers who are based over an hour away in Earth City, MO. I don't know of any large scale bulk cargo operators who would take them seriously. STL is too small and too distant to support such an operation. You want to talk about a boondoggle? 29/11 is nothing compared to the empty airport out in the middle of a cornfield.
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bond007
Posts: 4423
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RE: Flights At STL

Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:58 am

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 39):
The traffic will come, it will take time though.

The traffic will never some in such numbers as to require the new runway. It would have to double to justify it, and I don't see that happening.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
stl1326
Posts: 392
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:07 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:37 am

Quoting MoMan (Reply 38):
Anyone who lives in the STL market knows there is only two reasons to drive across the Mississippi: to get shot or to go to the casinos.

I can't believe you would say something like that. You think that the Missouri side doesn't have an east St. Louis of its own, you are wrong. There are thriving areas in the metro-east like Shiloh, Fairview Heights, O'Fallon, Smithton, Millstadt, Swansea, Belleville, Freeburg, Edwardsville, and Glen Carbon to name a few. It really is sad to hear that most people on the Missouri side think that way. Also, is the east side is so bad than why is this occuring?
"The metro-east continues to grow at a rapid pace, according to the latest Census Bureau estimates, and the reason is simple: An influx of new residents coming across the Mississippi River from Missouri."
Full article: http://www.topix.net/content/kri/200...tro-east-makes-gains-in-population

[Edited 2007-07-17 04:48:58]
 
LambertMan
Posts: 1696
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:26 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:08 pm

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 39):

The airport was a zoo this morning, granted I left from C2. I noticed the AirTran line was looooong with only one agent working the counter. The whole planes worth of people could of have been in the line- looked kind of like a group leaving.

AirTran needs help at Lambert desperately. Even though it is a forgone conclusion that they are going to expand, I have a hard time imagining how they are going to given how thin they are a stretched at Lambert. As part of their expansion B8 looks like the likely candidate to have a gate added.

Allegedly, there will be more gate shuffling for the better around the airport. More on that to come, I suppose....

Quoting MoMan (Reply 38):
LV never worked as a reliever. Anyone who lives in the STL market knows there is only two reasons to drive across the Mississippi: to get shot or to go to the casinos

Wow. The Illinois side has its drawbacks, but East St. Louis sets the mood. It's not as bad as people make it out to be.
 
moman
Posts: 708
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:17 am

RE: Flights At STL

Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:15 pm

Quoting Stl1326 (Reply 42):
I can't believe you would say something like that. You think that the Missouri side doesn't have an east St. Louis of its own, you are wrong. There are thriving areas in the metro-east like Shiloh, Fairview Heights, O'Fallon, Smithton, Millstadt, Swansea, Belleville, Freeburg, Edwardsville, and Glen Carbon to name a few. It really is sad to hear that most people on the Missouri side think that way. Also, is the east side is so bad than why is this occuring?
"The metro-east continues to grow at a rapid pace, according to the latest Census Bureau estimates, and the reason is simple: An influx of new residents coming across the Mississippi River from Missouri."

Relax....I was talking specifically about EAST St. Louis, which is much better than it was in the past:

Quoting MoMan (Reply 38):
. Granted, East STL isn't what it used to be, but perceptions die hard.

Anything east of East St. Louis is nice, Fairview Heights, Collinsville, Edwardsville, Glen Carbon, etc. But away from visitning friends and relatives, there is no reason for someone to go to the Illinois side from the MO side because MO is where all the downtown, baseball, Arch, airport, etc. are located.

[Edited 2007-07-17 05:16:47]
AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2820
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:28 pm

Quoting MoMan (Reply 44):
Anything east of East St. Louis is nice, Fairview Heights, Collinsville, Edwardsville, Glen Carbon, etc. But away from visitning friends and relatives, there is no reason for someone to go to the Illinois side from the MO side because MO is where all the downtown, baseball, Arch, airport, etc. are located.

How is driving from west county or St. Charles (where the majority of people in the St. Louis area live) any different than say, Belleville?
DMI
 
mrstl
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:58 am

RE: Flights At STL

Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:30 pm

Quoting Stl1326 (Reply 42):
Quoting MoMan (Reply 38):
Anyone who lives in the STL market knows there is only two reasons to drive across the Mississippi: to get shot or to go to the casinos.

I can't believe you would say something like that. You think that the Missouri side doesn't have an east St. Louis of its own, you are wrong. There are thriving areas in the metro-east like Shiloh, Fairview Heights, O'Fallon, Smithton, Millstadt, Swansea, Belleville, Freeburg, Edwardsville, and Glen Carbon to name a few. It really is sad to hear that most people on the Missouri side think that way.

Might have been a more apt description of the metro east 20 years ago. We will continue to see the metro east grow, especially since westward sprawl has hit the point of being an hour or more cummute to the the city during rush hour. They are building the same size (mid-larger) homes in O'Fallon IL as they are in O'Fallon MO. While I do not live in the metro east I do not think less of it. I consider it to be a vital part of the metro area both in employment numbers, financial contribution and passenger numbers!!! Everyone roll up the windows  Wink
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Flights At STL

Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:42 pm

Quoting MoMan (Reply 38):
Anyone who lives in the STL market knows there is only two reasons to drive across the Mississippi: to get shot or to go to the casinos.

Well, there is another reason ... so I'm told. Something about clubs ....  Wink

BTW ... the East St. Louis reputation is quite justified. As of last year, St. Louis was still the most crime-ridden city in the USA, mainly because of East St.Louis, which is something like FIVE times worse in crime rates than the MO side.

... and yes, I did live in St.Louis for many years ....

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
stlgph
Posts: 8929
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: Flights At STL

Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:48 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 47):
As of last year, St. Louis was still the most crime-ridden city in the USA, mainly because of East St.Louis

East St. Louis and St. Louis are two totally separate entities.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Flights At STL

Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:09 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 48):
East St. Louis and St. Louis are two totally separate entities.

Understood - but the crime figures include both in their rankings - presumably because of geographical area, rather than political boundaries.

"..This includes only the downtown St. Louis City limits and the city of East St. Louis,.."



Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!

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