777fan
Topic Author
Posts: 2256
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:09 pm

ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:35 pm

While the overall intent makes perfect sense to me, the one thing that doesn't is the implied change in runway heading. How can a runway be reassigned a different azimuth if it's heading doesn't change?

Fair use excerpt from the Chicago Tribune:

"The runway, known as 9 Right/27 Left, isn't going away. But it will have a new name -- runway 10/28 -- by the first flight on Thursday morning, according to the Chicago Department of Aviation."

Link to full article:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...4,1,132340.story?coll=chi-news-hed


777fan
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
SailorOrion
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 5:56 pm

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:44 pm

ORD will have 6 parallel runways. As there are only three discriminators (L/C/R), you need to take the "next" number when you have 4 or more parallel runways. See also: LAX, ATL, CDG, DEN, DFW, DTW ....

The three northern runways in ORD will be 9/27s and the three southern ones be 10/28s.

besides, the Topic is wrong .. it should be 10/28, not 10R/28L (it never will be named that way, only 10L/28R)

SailorOrion

[Edited 2007-07-04 14:45:23]
 
777fan
Topic Author
Posts: 2256
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:09 pm

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:58 pm

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 1):
besides, the Topic is wrong .. it should be 10/28, not 10R/28L (it never will be named that way, only 10L/28R)

From the O'Hare Modernization Program website:

"The final step in the modernization process is to extend an existing runway (Future Runway 9R-27L), to build and open two new parallel runways (Future Runways 9C-27C and 10R-28L), and to close existing Runways 14L-32R and 14R-32L. Based on market conditions, this step may also include the construction of additional gate facilities in the west terminal area and the airport's existing terminal core. The western terminal facility will enable the development of new roadways at the west side of the airport."

What I'm really trying to ascertain (and haven't been able to figure out as of yet) is whether or not there will actually be some runways with a 10/28 heading and others with a 9/27 heading. At first glance, it appears to me that the renaming of a runway whose heading isn't changing is a rather risky move given the high number of runway incursions, misinterpretations, etc. that normally occur at ORD and other airports, particularly those that are frequented by foreign pilots whose language abilities may not be up to par (see I Got An Email From CNN About The AirChina Pilot.. (by Ebs757 Jun 22 2007 in Civil Aviation)).


777fan
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
SailorOrion
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 5:56 pm

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting 777fan (Reply 2):
"The final step in the modernization process is to extend an existing runway (Future Runway 9R-27L), to build and open two new parallel runways (Future Runways 9C-27C and 10R-28L)

Yep, final step, about 2015. Currently they are building future runway 9L/27R. Current 9R/27L is renamed 10/28 for the time being. Current 9L/27R is being renamed to 9R/27L by the end of next month. When the new runway on the south airfield is built/opened (2009 or 2010) 10/28 becomes 10L/28R and the new one becomes 10R/28L. In the final phase 9C/27C is being added between the 9s (1604ft north of CURRENT 9L/27R or FUTURE 9R/27L); then 10R/28L will be renamed 10C/28C and a new 10R/27L is built 4300ft south of current 10/28.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 2):
At first glance, it appears to me that the renaming of a runway whose heading isn't changing is a rather risky move given the high number of runway incursions, misinterpretations, etc. that normally occur at ORD and other airports, particularly those that are frequented by foreign pilots whose language abilities may not be up to par

Yes, there have been issues with runway redesignations in the past, this is exactly the reason why they are doing it in stages and not kind of "move" the runway over the airport. This is really the best way to do it, imho, and it represents how the airfield evolves best.


sources:
http://www.flychicago.com/ohare/runways/
http://www.agl.faa.gov/OMP/Planning/...rojectDefinitionReport-Chpt1-4.pdf

SailorOrion
 
777fan
Topic Author
Posts: 2256
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:09 pm

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:31 pm

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 3):
Current 9R/27L is renamed 10/28 for the time being

This was my original point - I contend that the temporary designation could result in more confusion, vice less as is the plan. Either way, I hope all works out for the best seeing as how I frequent ORD!


777fan
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
bravogolf
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:18 am

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:35 am

The reason is that magnetic north changes over the years. Chicagoland airports were notified recently that they will have to change the numbers of their runways to reflect this change in magnetic north. This is not an easy or inexpensive project as not only the runway markings have to be changed but also all the runway signs.
 
777fan
Topic Author
Posts: 2256
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:09 pm

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:31 am

Quoting BravoGolf (Reply 5):
The reason is that magnetic north changes over the years

Very interesting - didn't know that was even possible. Has this happened at other airports in the past?


777fan
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
cloudyapple
Posts: 1261
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:01 am

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:10 am

Quoting 777fan (Thread starter):
"The runway, known as 9 Right/27 Left

Nit picking here - it's not 9, it's 09. This is for clarity on R/T.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 6):
Has this happened at other airports in the past?

All the time. Heathrow used to be 10/28. Manchester just changed to 05/23 from 06/24. The closer you are to the poles, the bigger the effect is from magnetic shift and the more "often" (note the quotes) runways will be redesignated.

Runway redesignations are however once in a few decades events for any particular airport.
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
bohica
Posts: 2334
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 3:21 pm

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:18 am

Quoting BravoGolf (Reply 5):
not only the runway markings have to be changed but also all the runway signs.

As well as navigational charts, approach plates, FMS updates, etc.
 
JayDub
Posts: 359
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:14 am

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:42 am

Quoting BravoGolf (Reply 5):
The reason is that magnetic north changes over the years. Chicagoland airports were notified recently that they will have to change the numbers of their runways to reflect this change in magnetic north.

While this does happen every once in a while, I'm fairly certain this change has more to do with the future additions of more parallel runways as planned in the O'Hare Modernization Plan.
"Travel is only glamorous in retrospect." - Paul Theroux
 
G4LASRamper
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:35 am

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:58 pm

Runway designations do change once in a great while. During my time as a pilot one runway I used frequently got a new number - BUR 7/25 became 8/26. The magnetic poles do move a little every year - runways with headings that are already close to rounding to the next number are the most likely change candidates.

As for using a leading zero for runway designations, that's an ICAO thing but it's not used in the US. Here a runway 9 is just that, runway 9 not 09. Just another difference between US domestic flight operations and overseas ops, like saying "point" instead of "decimal" for the dot in VHF frequencies.
"A pig that doesn't fly is just a pig." - Porco Rosso
 
SailorOrion
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 5:56 pm

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:32 pm

The runway designator change in ORD has NOTHING to do with shifts in runway heading. The heading is STILL 92.7°/272.7°

SailorOrion
 
FlightPlan06
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 4:19 am

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:48 pm

So does anybody know if the changes went smoothly?
 
SailorOrion
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 5:56 pm

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:39 pm

Yes, they did. 9R/27L was shut down on July 4th at 2000 (local). Then 52.000 square feet of pavement markings were removed and 48500 sqft of pavement markings were installed. Also 102 signs all over the airport were replaced. 10/28 was opened July 5th at 0530 (local). The first aircraft to operate the "new" runway was a UA 737 (of course) that landed just before 0600 (local).

Also, the threshold of 10 has been displaced by 1200ft to facilitate the construction of the western 3000ft extension of 10/28.

The extension, 9L/27R and the new northern ATCT will be comissioned November 20, 2008.

Question: How does this threshold displacing affect the LAHSO operations on 10?

Source: OMP e-mail

SailorOrion
 
bravogolf
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:18 am

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:31 am

OK I just found out the real reason for the change. The change in magnetic heading is still a valid one HOWEVER this seems to me to be the real reason. You will now have a runway 27 and 28. This will prevent confusion in the past between 27L and 27R.
 
timz
Posts: 6198
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:10 am

Quoting BravoGolf (Reply 14):
The change in magnetic heading is still a valid [reason]



Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 11):
The heading is STILL 92.7°/272.7°
 
Chugach
Posts: 962
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:18 am

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:41 am

ANC and MRI did this a couple years ago. 6/24 became 7/25 at both airports. Not a huge deal, really.
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:03 am

Wow...

Last I checked, Chicago was almost right on the isogonic line (the line on the Earth where magnetic heading=true heading). How about now? What is Chicago's magnetic variation  Smile

Of course, it also might be to free up more runway numbers to make room for more parallell runways  Wink
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
pr1268
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:22 pm

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:26 am

Quoting 777fan (Reply 6):
Has this happened at other airports in the past?

DCA changed 18/36 to 01/19 several years ago.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't ANC have 06L/24R and 06R/24L in the past? (They're 07L/25R and 07R/25L now.) It would seem that the effects of magnetic deviation drift would be more apparent in far northern (or southern) latitudes.
The only time an aircraft has too much fuel is when it is on fire.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19304
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:38 am

More on the North Magnetic Pole's movement (2005 article):
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...005/12/1215_051215_north_pole.html
 
vv701
Posts: 5847
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:26 am

Quoting G4LASRamper (Reply 10):
The magnetic poles do move a little every year

In 1910 the magnetic north pole was located about 71 degrees north in northern Canada. Today it is close to 81 degrees north. However since

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 17):
Chicago was almost right on the isogonic line (the line on the Earth where magnetic heading=true heading).

the movement of the magnetic pole is unlikely to require a change in designation of the runways at ORD. The quickest changes occur the further the airport is away from the isogenic line and the closer it is to the actual location of the magnetic north pole.

The change in designation is usually made when the magnetic north has shifted so that it is fractionally more than five degrees away from the runway designation. So, for example LHR will have changed the designation of its two runways from the old 10/28 to the current 09/27 when the magnetic north pole was at around 275 degrees or midway between the old desigmnation of 280 degrees and the current designation of 270 degrees.
 
SailorOrion
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 5:56 pm

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:04 pm

Why do we keep discussing magnetic changes? It has nothing to do with ORDs renaming  Smile

SailorOrion
 
777fan
Topic Author
Posts: 2256
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:09 pm

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:30 pm

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 13):
The first aircraft to operate the "new" runway was a UA 737 (of course) that landed just before 0600 (local).

Cool beans - thanks for the update. Strange that a UA737 was arriving at 0600; a redeye, perhaps? If so, that would suck.


777fan
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
bravogolf
Posts: 360
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:18 am

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:49 pm

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 21):
Why do we keep discussing magnetic changes? It has nothing to do with ORDs renaming Smile

1 The magnetic north subject itself is very interesting, apart from the original ORD question

2 We are having an intelligent informative discussion that is education people

3 It hasn't degraded into a A vs B rant
 
SailorOrion
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 5:56 pm

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:40 am

Quoting BravoGolf (Reply 23):
1 The magnetic north subject itself is very interesting, apart from the original ORD question

2 We are having an intelligent informative discussion that is education people

3 It hasn't degraded into a A vs B rant

1) Good point
2) Good point
3) Good point

Was just trying to point out that this specific renaming has configuration reasons, not magnetic shift reasons

SailorOrion
 
User avatar
flyingclrs727
Posts: 970
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 am

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:50 am

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 7):
Runway redesignations are however once in a few decades events for any particular airport.

We're overdue for a magnetic pole reversal which last happened about 700,000 years ago. Just imagine how confusing that would be for runway designations all over the world simultaneously.
 
SailorOrion
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 5:56 pm

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:03 am

Quoting FlyingClrs727 (Reply 25):
We're overdue for a magnetic pole reversal which last happened about 700,000 years ago. Just imagine how confusing that would be for runway designations all over the world simultaneously.

Yep, but one might think it would be easier to redefine the poles then instead of redefining everything else  Smile

SailorOrion
 
phelpsie87
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:41 pm

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:36 am

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 13):
The extension, 9L/27R and the new northern ATCT will be comissioned November 20, 2008.

Wait, new tower? Awesome, got a link to more info?
 
SailorOrion
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 5:56 pm

RE: ORD Ready To "Rename" Runway 9R/27L To 10R/28L

Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:41 pm

Yes.

http://egov.cityofchicago.org/webpor...COC_ATTACH/612610040005_122606.pdf
Also previous discussions here.

SailorOrion

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos