boysteve
Posts: 887
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:02 am

Security Checks On UK Domestic Flights

Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:29 am

Can anyone tell me whether ID checks should be carried out on people boarding UK domestic flights? Especially at a time of critical security.
Yesterday (Tuesday July 3rd) I flew MAN-LHR on BD581 and returned on BA1404 that evening. In both cases I had checked in on line and printed out by boarding pass at home. Despite extra security at both airports my ID was never checked once, neither at airport security nor at the gate during boarding. BA say that for domestic flights you need to have photographic ID such as a passport or driving licence, I always take my passport as in my opinion it is the most likely form of ID to be accepted in any situation. Is there a duty on either airport security staff or airline staff to check a persons ID for a domestic flight? Is special attention given to those who have checked themselves in on line to ensure the correct person is travelling?
On the 2 flights I caught yesterday identified above I checked in on line as myself but I could then of given the boarding pass to anyone who could have used it to travel without being detected once.
 
sevenair
Posts: 1496
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

RE: Security Checks On UK Domestic Flights

Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:45 am

That is quite frightening. When I check in online with EZY from NCL, my boarding card is checked at security, and they glance at the photo ID (mainly to check you actually have ID) and then it is thoroughly inspected by the gate staff.
 
N
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:46 pm

RE: Security Checks On UK Domestic Flights

Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:48 pm

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 1):
That is quite frightening

Why is that frightening? It is a domestic flight, there are therefore no border controls and therefore no legal requirements to check ID. Do you expect to have your ID checked when you drive from Manchester to London, take the bus or take the train?

What does it really matter if I print off a boarding pass in my name but end up giving it to a friend? Surely that's what airport security is all about - checking that THE SPECIFIC PERSON who is actually flying that day has no way of compromising the safety of an aircraft, an airport or other passengers.

My understanding is that the likes of EZY, etc. check ID for commercial purposes - i.e. they don't want you to transfer your ticket to another person for no fee.

In addition, I don't really see what checking the likeness of a photo on a driving licence to that of the passenger and matching up the name to the boarding pass actually achieves. At no time is the proof of ID used on those EZY et al flights scanned or recorded in any way to be called up as evidence in the future and the ID is definitely not verified in any way to be genuine.

I fly A LOT domestically. BD and BA never, ever have checked my ID and I don't see what the issue is. How can it be 'frightening' to not be asked to produce a bit of paper that does nothing at all to increase the security of an aircraft or airport?
 
sevenair
Posts: 1496
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

RE: Security Checks On UK Domestic Flights

Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:46 pm

Quoting N (Reply 2):
It is a domestic flight,

I think it is frightening, if someone is on the no-fly list, and poses a threat to security, then they could easily board a flight if they or someone else books a ticket in their own name, and then hands the boarding card to the would be terrorist.

If checking identity is such a non-issue, then how come you get your photo taken at security at LGW, and then they check this photo taken at security when boarding the aircraft? This happened to me each time I flew LGW-MME. And the last time I flew from MME, they did the same. On domestic flights.

Quoting N (Reply 2):
Surely that's what airport security is all about - checking that THE SPECIFIC PERSON who is actually flying that day has no way of compromising the safety of an aircraft, an airport or other passengers

You just said it - it is about checking THE SPECIFIC PERSON who is flying - if ID is not checked, then this is not done! If Richard Reid et al was allowed to board with no guns/explosives/knives etc etc - would you not agree that it is quite inappropriate for this guy to board the aircraft? Or better still, a group of people getting onboard and doing the dirty. There were plans to hijack domestic flights and fly them in to London. And yes it may be a domestic flight. But what's that got to do with it?

If there are no checks made on domestic flight, and I were a terrorist, I would book under an assumed name, and then turn up to the airport. As I have booked with a fake name, my name (nor the name of my fellow hijackers) have not been flagged. As ID is not checked, then my real name will never be established. No suspicions at all. I would also book with BA or BD!

When BA completely shuts down it's entire domestic system when any kind of terror threat appears, then surely they should been a little less lapse when it comes to security on it's domestic flights.

Just my two pence - good luck to us all!
 
SlovakFlight
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:13 am

RE: Security Checks On UK Domestic Flights

Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:08 pm

Even if there is no legal requirement to check ID on a UK domestic flight, I can´t understand why they don´t do it...
In the early 90´s I used to fly domestic in Sweden on the ARN - GOT route with Scandinavian Airlines. You could usually walk almost straight onboard the a/c without showing any ID. Last week I took a domestic flight in Poland from SZZ to WAW with LOT and my ID was checked very thoroughly at security. I must say I felt much safer on the Polish flight than onboard SAS in the 90´s.
Once in KSC, Slovakia, before a domestic flight to BTS, I tried to show them my Swedish driving licence instead of my passport. They accepted it but checked it thoroughly.
IMHO the British way of not checking ID is a little bit sloppy in these post-9-11 days. I would not like to fly together with some escaped prisoner or the like, even if he does not carry a knife, gun or [the B-word]
 
N
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:46 pm

RE: Security Checks On UK Domestic Flights

Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 3):
I think it is frightening, if someone is on the no-fly list, and poses a threat to security, then they could easily board a flight if they or someone else books a ticket in their own name, and then hands the boarding card to the would be terrorist

And you think that someone who has the will to commit a terrorist attack doesn't have access to a fake driving licence? These ID documents that are used on domestic flights are not scanned, recorded or verified to be real.

I flew from LHR to EDI on Sunday, the day after the attack on GLA and didn't have my ID checked. Did I feel safe? Yes. Ironically, security at LHR missed the bottle of mouth wash my partner had in his bag that he forgot to put in the plastic bag for screening (discovered his mistake when he was unpacking). Now if this thread was about that sort of shortcoming in security my input would be very different - surely bags being properly scanned is much more important than producing what could be a fake ID?

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 3):
If checking identity is such a non-issue, then how come you get your photo taken at security at LGW, and then they check this photo taken at security when boarding the aircraft? This happened to me each time I flew LGW-MME. And the last time I flew from MME, they did the same. On domestic flights

This is quirk with LGW and is to do with the fact that international and domestic passengers share the same departure lounge. This is a slightly strange situation because my local airport EDI shares a departure lounge and no photos are taken but there are no real high risk destinations from EDI in the way there are from LGW. But I do concede that this is a quirk at LGW. However, although your photo is taken, every time I have flown from LGW to EDI with BA, I have never been asked to produce ID.

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 3):
You just said it - it is about checking THE SPECIFIC PERSON who is flying - if ID is not checked, then this is not done! If Richard Reid et al was allowed to board with no guns/explosives/knives etc etc - would you not agree that it is quite inappropriate for this guy to board the aircraft? Or better still, a group of people getting onboard and doing the dirty. There were plans to hijack domestic flights and fly them in to London. And yes it may be a domestic flight. But what's that got to do with it?

What difference does it make if a person has their ID checked but the bomb they have in their bag is missed by airport security? As I mentioned, the ID that AIRLINES (i.e. not any official body) require for domestic flights is not verified for authenticity in any way therefore it doesn't provide any degree of true security at all. I think it extremely naive to believe that someone who is on the no-fly list and wants to 'hijack domestic flights and fly them in to London' wouldn't be able to get their hands on fake ID.

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 3):
If there are no checks made on domestic flight, and I were a terrorist, I would book under an assumed name, and then turn up to the airport. As I have booked with a fake name, my name (nor the name of my fellow hijackers) have not been flagged. As ID is not checked, then my real name will never be established. No suspicions at all. I would also book with BA or BD!

Producing a bit of paper for the gate agent to mentally tick the box that they have seen ID doesn't prevent the situation you have described from potentially happening. I believe you are missing the fundamental point that I am making in that, if airport security is tight enough, hijackers booking in their own name or in another name should not be a risk to an aircraft.

I believe we need to be careful what we wish for. It is a slippery slope for people to believe that producing a bit of paper for transport WITHIN a country makes us any safer - where will that end. I have nothing to hide but I enjoy having freedom and by all means ask me to prove who I am when it is important and serves a purpose but not when it has no effect on real security at all.

[Edited 2007-07-05 16:52:03]
 
sevenair
Posts: 1496
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

RE: Security Checks On UK Domestic Flights

Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:45 am

Quoting SlovakFlight (Reply 4):
IMHO the British way of not checking ID is a little bit sloppy in these post-9-11 days.

I completely agree. ID should be presented and checked on EVERY flight, be it international or domestic.
 
N
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:46 pm

RE: Security Checks On UK Domestic Flights

Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:13 am

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 6):
I completely agree. ID should be presented and checked on EVERY flight, be it international or domestic.

From the FlyWhoosh website - 'Photographic ID is required for all flights. This may be a passport, driving licence or ID card with photograph, a CitizenCard, a Council issued bus pass, a UK Armed Forces ID card, a Police warrant card, or a photo ID issued by an Airport.

A BUS PASS!!! And this makes you feel safe?

ID is not checked on trains or buses in the UK and sadly, we have seen the devastation and loss of life caused in London (and in Madrid).

I feel a lot safer flying on an aircraft within the UK (I rarely fly EZY therefore ID won't have been checked) than I do travelling on a packed train or on the London Underground. The risk of a terrorist attack on an aircraft has to be massively lower because of bag screening before boarding an aircraft. Are you going to call for my ID be checked when I hop on the bus into town on my way to work in the morning?
 
bh4007
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:19 am

RE: Security Checks On UK Domestic Flights

Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:36 am

Focusing on ID checks will not improve security and counter terrorism significantly.
Moving security areas back towards the entrance of terminals and not just letting anyone in the terminal building without a ticket will.

bh4007
 
Speedbird2155
Posts: 684
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:44 am

RE: Security Checks On UK Domestic Flights

Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 3):
If checking identity is such a non-issue, then how come you get your photo taken at security at LGW, and then they check this photo taken at security when boarding the aircraft? This happened to me each time I flew LGW-MME. And the last time I flew from MME, they did the same. On domestic flights.



Quoting N (Reply 5):
This is quirk with LGW and is to do with the fact that international and domestic passengers share the same departure lounge.

Wouldn't really describe it as a quirk, but you are right about it having to do with international and domestic passengers sharing the same departure lounge. LHR T5 will have a similar system as there will be an 'open' departure area shared by both international and domestic passengers.

Taking the picture also ensure that the person who cleared security and indicated that they intend to travel domestically, cannot then give that boarding card to someone who came in on an international flight, which would allow them to then enter the UK without undergoing the necessary immigration checks. Where there are separate domestic and international departure areas, then there is no problem as that person can either take the flight or not, but not pass the boarding card to an international passenger.

As mentioned before, given that there is no crossing of an international border, then the need to undertake document checks is removed.
 
XXXX10
Posts: 702
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2000 7:10 am

RE: Security Checks On UK Domestic Flights

Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:46 am

AFAIK on BD you can use a credit card as ID provided that you paid for the flight with it. This is only applies to the passenger who paid for the ticket, for example, if I travel with my wife and pay for both tickets she will need photo Id, but I can use the credit card I purchased the tickets on.

AFAIK there is not a no-fly list in the UK I am sure that the security services and police keep certain suspects under surveillance and are entitled to stop anyone the believe is suspicious.

Regardless of the above everyone goes through security and we do have baggage reconciliation on domestic flights unlike the US.
 
jimbobjoe
Posts: 450
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2001 2:04 pm

RE: Security Checks On UK Domestic Flights

Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:55 pm

Quoting N (Reply 5):

And you think that someone who has the will to commit a terrorist attack doesn't have access to a fake driving licence?

That's absolutely correct. Believing that photo ID is helpful security wise requires that you put an enormous quantity of faith into quite a lot of different institutions, personnel, documentation, etc, almost all of which are simply not deserving of it.

Though I'm more expert in issues here in the states, I'm sure the scenarios would apply just as well to DVLA or the Identity and Passport Service.

One of my favorite statistics has to do with California, who according to my reckoning, issues 20,000 ID cards *per day* from a central facility, and that's assuming they're printing 24 hours per day. You'd have to be mad to believe that every ID card issued is good.

But if you are assuming that they are all good and can be relied upon, what is an acceptable failure rate before you start getting into trouble. 10 bad cards per day (a failure rate of 5 hundreths of a percent)? I'd think that to be a good failure rate if the cards were only good for driving. Alas, they're too useful and too high in demand otherwise.

Photo ID cards have an interesting psychological effect on the brain. They make people feel safer. They're really just a cheap plastic card. I have heard, anecdotally, that beggars who have a photo ID card around their neck bring in significantly more donations. Why? Beats me. It's all a part of the human condition.

Quoting XXXX10 (Reply 10):
we do have baggage reconciliation on domestic flights unlike the US.

I thought that was achieved some time after 9/11.
 
ManchesterMAN
Posts: 1042
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:57 pm

RE: Security Checks On UK Domestic Flights

Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:47 pm

I fly BD between MAN and LHR relatively frequently and my ID NEVER gets checked (unless I am checking in bags in which case they do check it). They are supposed to check it at the gate I think but it never happens.

I don't see a problem with this as everyone still has to go through security but if the rule is in place ...
Flown: A300,A319,A320,A321,A330,A340.A380,717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,F100,F50,ERJ,E190,CRJ,BAe146,Da
 
SapphireLHR
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:09 pm

RE: Security Checks On UK Domestic Flights

Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:26 pm

Terminal 5 will have what is known as CUL, Common User Lounge, similar to LGW but the difference being that at LHR they will use a biometric system to ensure that the passenger checking in for the domestic flight is the same as boarding. At check in a biometric reading of 4 finger prints will be taken as well as a photo. At the validation desks at the departure gate the fingerprint scan will be checked as a primary check. The photo will only be checked if there is a doubt or problem reading prints or if prints cannot be captured due to either age, medical problems or injuries etc. This system will be used on all domestic departures at T5, whereas at this time it is only on trial at Terminal 1 Gate 5 departures.
 
Baexecutive
Posts: 594
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:29 pm

RE: Security Checks On UK Domestic Flights

Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting XXXX10 (Reply 10):
if I travel with my wife and pay for both tickets she will need photo Id, but I can use the credit card I purchased the tickets on.

No this is incorrect, if you are travelling on a domestic flight with BD you may use a Credit/Debit card for I.D.

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