TG992
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NZ To Operate HA Aircraft On AKL-HNL-AKL

Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:21 am

Air NZ may be operating Hawaiian Airlines 767-300 aircraft on the AKL-HNL route at some point in the future.

HA have signed a heavy check maintenance contract to take place here in New Zealand, and the most efficient method of bringing them to and from the checks is to operating them as the normal NZ009/NZ010 commercial flights.

The current agreement calls for Air NZ cabin crew to crew the sectors, but our unions have refused a proposal from Air NZ to do so, as it would breach the provisions in our contract for crew rest facilities - the Hawaiian Airlines aircraft don't have crew rest facilities to the standard set out in our contract.

Remains to be seen what will happen, but the company may be able to operate the aircraft via another island, as sectors under 5 hours we aren't entitled to crew rest facilities.
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geardown
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RE: NZ To Operate HA Aircraft On AKL-HNL-AKL

Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:26 am

Someone in another thread said that the flight will be ferried to Auckland from American Samoa.
 
B6FA4ever
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RE: NZ To Operate HA Aircraft On AKL-HNL-AKL

Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:28 am

or maybe HA could eventually start up its own HNL-AKL at least a few times weekly and rotate the planes that way for their checks. i remember seeing an old route map that HA did operate this route before. what years did this occur? was it on the L1011? DC8?

~B6FA4ever
 
ChiGB1973
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RE: NZ To Operate HA Aircraft On AKL-HNL-AKL

Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:30 am

Quoting TG992 (Thread starter):
HA have signed a heavy check maintenance contract to take place here in New Zealand, and the most efficient method of bringing them to and from the checks is to operating them as the normal NZ009/NZ010 commercial flights.

I don't see how this could be efficient at all?

NZ is just going to substitute HA aircraft when the checks are due and use their own equipment in between? They would still have to ferry a plane.

This reasoning doesn't make sense at all. Maybe someone can enlighten?

With the associated crew problems arising, seems just ferrying the thing will be their best option.

M
 
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NZ107
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RE: NZ To Operate HA Aircraft On AKL-HNL-AKL

Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:35 am

Interesting. Nice to see HA metal come down here, but actually for revenue flights. Does it free up a NZ763 on those days to do something else?

So afterall, the AKL-PPG-HNL may become reality - it doesn't seem in the best interests of passengers going to HNL to stop in PPG - Will the HA a/c be flown on both flights? Or possibly replacing the A320 AKL-APW and retiming it? APW makes sense as NZ are already established there.
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OceansWorld
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RE: NZ To Operate HA Aircraft On AKL-HNL-AKL

Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:56 am

Quoting B6FA4ever (Reply 2):
i remember seeing an old route map that HA did operate this route before. what years did this occur? was it on the L1011? DC8?

According to one of my sources, HA started South Pacific services, including AKL back in 1983 when they finally got some DC-8s. And from another source, the both AKL and SYD were stopped during 1990 because they were only once- or twice-weekly services, thus uncompetitive against the other airlines.
 
ikramerica
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RE: NZ To Operate HA Aircraft On AKL-HNL-AKL

Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:18 am

This is a false rumor, obviously. There is no way to do this on a substitution basis. You'd have to ferry something or cancel a frequency to make this work...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
HALFA
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RE: NZ To Operate HA Aircraft On AKL-HNL-AKL

Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:35 am

Quoting TG992 (Thread starter):
Air NZ may be operating Hawaiian Airlines 767-300 aircraft on the AKL-HNL route at some point in the future.

Interesting. I haven't heard a thing about any agreements between HA and Air NZ using HA aircraft and flight crews to fly flights between AKL and HNL. When is this supposed to take place or are you speculating? Your subject heading made it sound like it's a done deal.

Quoting B6FA4ever (Reply 2):
. i remember seeing an old route map that HA did operate this route before. what years did this occur? was it on the L1011? DC8?

I worked the inaugural flight from PPG to AKL and iirc, it was in January of either 1988 or 1989. The flights were operated with DC-8's.

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 5):
According to one of my sources, HA started South Pacific services, including AKL back in 1983

Actually, HA started scheduled service to the South Pacific in 1984 and AKL didn't come along until a few years later, (see above). We flew scheduled service flights to AKL, SYD, TBU, RAR, PPT, APW and PPG.

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kbfispotter
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RE: NZ To Operate HA Aircraft On AKL-HNL-AKL

Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:12 am

Quoting TG992 (Thread starter):
HA have signed a heavy check maintenance contract to take place here in New Zealand,

Does this mean that their contract with Goodrich at PAE is over with? I know that when I worked there, we did heavy checks on their 767 fleet.

Kris
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LAXintl
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RE: NZ To Operate HA Aircraft On AKL-HNL-AKL

Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:16 am

Besides mentioned issues, there is the big issue of legality.

Air NZ crews cannot operate N registered aircraft without an FAA license endorsement. I'd be willing to bet the complexity of getting either a small cadre, or for that matter entire Air NZ B767 crews qualified to US regulations is something neither airline would like to bear the financial nor logistical burden of. In addition the thorny issue of on whose Opspecs and whom will maintain operation control on such flights need legal clarification

On the other hand maintenance ferrying the aircraft as a non-revenue sector is something that could be accomplished much easier and only requires a relatively easy to obtain FAA ferry permit if crewed and managed by entity outside the US.
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Gemuser
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RE: NZ To Operate HA Aircraft On AKL-HNL-AKL

Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:42 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 10):
Air NZ crews cannot operate N registered aircraft without an FAA license endorsement. I'd be willing to bet the complexity of getting either a small cadre, or for that matter entire Air NZ B767 crews qualified to US regulations is something neither airline would like to bear the financial nor logistical burden of. In addition the thorny issue of on whose Opspecs and whom will maintain operation control on such flights need legal clarification

Certainly a mine field, but one that is negotiable. Most likely HA would apply to the FAA for a wavier for certain limited flights to be operated by NZ. The FAA certainly CAN grant such a wavier, whether they WILL is entirely another matter.

Gemuser
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kiwiflyer791
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RE: NZ To Operate HA Aircraft On AKL-HNL-AKL

Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:17 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
This is a false rumor, obviously. There is no way to do this on a substitution basis. You'd have to ferry something or cancel a frequency to make this work...

I assure you that this is not a false rumour; it is exactly what they plan to do. How they do it is entirely another matter!
 
TPAPDX
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RE: NZ To Operate HA Aircraft On AKL-HNL-AKL

Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:37 am

I believe HA could apply a temporary NZ registration on the aircraft for the NZ crew operated flights to/from AKL. Its a bit of paperwork, but if it is prepared in advance on a recurring basis it is not that difficult. Of course, lots of other internal issues would need to be worked out, such as insurance, liability, wet-lease details, etc, etc.

There would be no reason to ferry aircraft, since it would be doubtful that NZ would operate daily AKL-HNL in my opinion. They would simply utilize the HA aircraft as an extra section, or, replace one of their scheduled flights well in advance without any disruption. It would simply originate/terminate in HNL, rather than AKL.

Several years ago, I was involved in a venture that was planning to utilize El Al 744's out of JFK to HNL on a scheduled passenger charter basis once a week, by simply applying decals and re-registering the aircraft for each round-trip. The El Al aircraft did, if I remember correctly, have very long turns in JFK (like 36-48 hours) over the Sabbath - making it possible.

[Edited 2007-07-06 19:39:23]
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: NZ To Operate HA Aircraft On AKL-HNL-AKL

Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:57 am

Interesting, hopefully this is true, would be great to see HA aircraft in AKL again! I wonder if they would be NZ9/10 or an HA flight number?
 
alangirvan
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RE: NZ To Operate HA Aircraft On AKL-HNL-AKL

Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:49 am

What are the major checks? If they are C checks each aircraft would turn up in AKL about once every eight months and if they are D checks the planes will turn up every few years. This does not seem regular enough to build a schedule, even if HA have some 17 planes.

It will be great to see HA in AKL. They are very popular out of SYD, and the local agent for HA is organising special fares to get Kiwis over to SYD to catch those flights. If HA does come to AKL I hope the flights will be timed to give people from Southern parts of NZ a chance to connect with them. The current NZ AKL-HNL schedules require a hotel stay in AKL in both directions for people from Dunedin.
 
777ER
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RE: NZ To Operate HA Aircraft On AKL-HNL-AKL

Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:20 pm

Quoting Alangirvan (Reply 14):
What are the major checks?

A heavy MX check (D check) involves stripping the interior/flight deck down to its 'skin' and checking for structual faults. When NZs B744s were having its IFE installed, it was done during the D checks
 
HAL
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RE: NZ To Operate HA Aircraft On AKL-HNL-AKL

Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:52 pm

OK folks, from an HA pilot's point of view;

Yes, the company is negotiating to have ANZ do the heavy maintenance on our 763's. ANZ is offering a better price for the maintenance than we're paying at Goodrich at PAE, and since management is looking for every penny to save, they're very interested. ANZ has offered to lease the planes as necessary for the flights back and forth to AKL, whenever one A/C is finished with its maintenance, and the next is ready to go down. They would simply substitute the aircraft coming out of the check for ANZ's regular 763 on the HNL flight, and when they got to the islands, they would fly the next aircraft due for a check on the return flight. It might happen roughly once every three to four weeks, depending on how long the checks take. It is merely a substitution of a HA plane for the ANZ plane on the route whenever it is time to exchange planes in the maintenance cycle.

I don't believe it would be too difficult for the airlines to get a waiver from the FAA to have the ANZ crews fly the plane in ANZ revenue service. It is a dry lease, and it happens all the time in the airline business - maybe not too often for a single flight, but it does happen. There is nothing in the HA pilot's contract to prevent HA from leasing out the aircraft we fly as long as it isn't flown as part of a scheduled (or code share) Hawaiian Airlines flight. The problem at the moment is that our contract does require us to do all the post-maintenance check flights. So the company will have to deadhead two of our pilots to Auckland each time one of the planes is ready to come out of maintenance to do the post-maintenance check and acceptance flight on it. Although that sounds inefficient, the cost of sending two pilots to AKL, plus hotel, is much, much less than ferrying an empty aircraft halfway across the Pacific.

The talk of flying from American Samoa to AKL comes from the fact that our four newest aircraft (ex-Delta, non-ER planes) can't fly HNL-AKL nonstop. So instead of ANZ crews ferrying the planes, these would fly a regular HA service to PPG, then get ferried to AKL for the heavy checks. When they were done, the process would be reversed.

The important thing to remember in all this, is that the deal is not done yet. No contract has been signed (to our knowledge), and everyone is still trying to iron out all the details. Personally, I'm ambivalent about it. I'd love for us to be flying to NZ, but we don't have the planes available to do it. If we were to get a handful more 763ER's and could add AKL as a regular destination, then the whole process above would become moot. But until that day, there's a lot of creative thinking going on. In the mean time, we get our planes serviced at a lower cost at a reputable facility (geez, I'm sounding like a used car commercial), and save the company money. There have of course been a few loud complaints from people who don't have the full gist of what's going on, but in the big scheme of life, I don't think this is too big a deal for us to lose sleep over.

HAL
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