jenkingeorge
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:10 am

The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:48 pm

Hi,
I was reading this earlier in a magazine...

A group founded by former pilots and executives have identified one which they claim could fly again within 3 years. The scheme is estimated to cost £10 - £15 million, of which, £1 million has been donated by Sir Richard Branson.
"Save Concorde" has the backing of some 30,000 supporters and is currently in talks with other major investors for the scheme.
The Concorde they claim that could fly again is at the French Air and Space Museum, Paris. ( F-BTSD I guess?) However, there is French bureaucracy that stands in their way.

http://www.save-concorde.co.uk/

I was trying to work out, whether after such a long period of time since the last one flew, is this a realistic idea???

-JenkinGeorge
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
 
OHLHD
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:02 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:52 pm

If this is true and people will be able to fly with it on sightseeing flights I will start saving some money!
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:00 pm

Quoting Jenkingeorge (Thread starter):
I was trying to work out, whether after such a long period of time since the last one flew, is this a realistic idea???

Well, guess it shouldn't be a problem. They could let this beauty fly again as well :



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Willem Honders






KL911
 
OHLHD
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:02 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:12 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 2):
Well, guess it shouldn't be a problem. They could let this beauty fly again as well :

Will it do flights for passengers? Air Show or sightseeing?  Smile
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5182
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:15 pm

Quoting Jenkingeorge (Thread starter):
However, there is French bureaucracy that stands in their way.

The French bureaucracy has no responsibility in the fact that Concorde will never fly again.
Since Concorde flights were ended almost four years ago, we can read here and there, every three months that a group of ...............* (choose what you want in the list below) want to bring back Concorde in the air.
It won't just happen.
Concorde is not a "simple" DC3. It's not a matter of "age".
However, It is true that the only 2 AF Concorde in "flyable" conditions are F-BTSD (stored at Le Bourget) and F-BVFC (stored at TLS by Airbus).




*
Pilots
Former pilots
Future pilots
R.Branson
Concorde supporters
Businessmen
Politicians
 
rsg85
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:30 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:16 pm

That site looks preety inactive, forums havent seen much action
Cant see it going anywhere
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4076
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:17 pm

Do a search in the Airliners.net forum archive - save-concorde.co.uk comes up often and has been discredited on many many many occasions by many experienced people.

Its a pipe dream, nothing more.
 
ANITIX87
Posts: 2952
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:52 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:10 pm

Concorde has also lost its Airworthiness Certificate IIRC. Would this be an issue for a rehabilitation, or not?

TIS
www.stellaryear.com: Canon EOS 50D, Canon EOS 5DMkII, Sigma 50mm 1.4, Canon 24-70 2.8L II, Canon 100mm 2.8L, Canon 100-4
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:16 pm

I think we should wait for GDB to get wind of this thread to find out the truth behind the hopes that Concorde will fly again/
Your bone's got a little machine
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9201
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:26 am

I would rely on them:

http://www.clubconcorde.co.uk/

more than on SCG....

Seems that a Vulcan will be returning to flight.

About a Concorde going back to the air I will never say never.
Not soon though.... Sad
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:46 am

I tend to think of Concorde like Princess Diana: let the dead rest and keep the memories.

There's no bl**dy CofA anymore. The beast, beautiful as it was, required maintenance by
very specialised technicians -- as I'm sure GDB will underline once again in this thread at
some point.

Concorde, like it or not, may have been a one-time thing. The economic hurdles to a future
SST, as well as environmental ones, are simply put quite large. In a carbon-trading future,
could anyone realistically afford it ? An SST BJ, maybe. One that slinks along at M=1.4/1.6
or so. And only for a very select few -- which makes it less likely on a business-case basis.

Concorde ain't comin' back, except in your dreams.

Kind of like an old girl friend.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
jenkingeorge
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:10 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:34 am

Oh, pitty but I did wonder whether they would really get her going again.  Sad I just went off the fact that they are getting the Vulcan flying again so I thought that they would shurley be able to get Concorde up!?! But there are those of us who are optimists, and I am one, so I will always hope...

(and I have heard that they are hoping to get the Vulcan flying beofre '07 is out) Big grin

JG
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 4962
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:55 am

Concorde's next flying mission will be transporting snowballs from Hell.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4076
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:59 am

Quoting Jenkingeorge (Reply 11):
I just went off the fact that they are getting the Vulcan flying again so I thought that they would shurley be able to get Concorde up!?!

The people dealing with the Vulcan restoration were there from the very moment the aircraft was retired from RAF service - they took the aircraft, every spare part they could get from anyone (RAF, Rolls Royce, individual contractors), set up idling support lines with the various parts suppliers, scrounged all the service manuals, blueprints and modification documents and sat down and spoke with various authorities right from the get go. It was a concerted effort to get her flying from the moment the wheels touched the ground for the last time in RAF service.

The Vulcan to the Sky people were *extremely* smart.

Thats why the Vulcan will fly again, and its also why Concorde won't.
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:28 am

I would guess that the manufacturers of the engines, servos and other vital supplies would stonewall supplying spare parts to any aircraft such as the Concorde that could crash full of people. There is an extremely high liability. While the Vulcan may or may not ever make it back into the air, if it does, it will have just two or three people on it. On the other hand, the temptation to sell rides on the Concorde to help pay the expenses would be just too much for the manufacturers to want to risk the liability of what if something goes wrong.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
vc10
Posts: 1342
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:33 am

I knew my picture would come up some where and then I looked up

http://www.clubconcorde.co.uk/

and there I was under captain's Log

As to Concorde flying again well I have learnt never to say never, but it was an extremely complex aeroplane using what is to day very old technology, and you have to remember that even the youngest of crews that flew are now in their 50s well in the UK anyway, and there is no simulator for them to refresh themselves on. It was a aeroplane that did not like to be left sitting idle for too long as this would normally result in hydraulic and/or electrical problems.and even the good ones have been idle for along time

Mind you nothing is impossible if there is a will,and after all nobody initially thought the airlines would operate it for more than 5 or so years ,and look how wrong they were

littlevc10
 
User avatar
falstaff
Posts: 5575
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:17 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:37 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 12):
Concorde's next flying mission will be transporting snowballs from Hell.

Or maybe we'll get to see her flying with some pigs.

All kidding aside. I was involved with an organization that operated a large steam locomotive. In the late 80s and all of the 1990s she went on some great trips on mainlines and branches of the NS, BN, and UP. Costs were high as was the skill level needed to operate and maintain such a machine. Eventually costs caught up and in 2001 the locomotive probably dropped her fire for the last time. Insurance premiums became the biggest expense even though a claim was never filed.
Smaller steam engine operators are much more successful, especially when operating on property the company that operates them own. UP, which is a large operator, has the money, the man power and their insurance covers their operations. A third party operating on their property pays high insurance bills if UP allows them to operate at all.
A steam locomotive and the Concorde are two different animals, but both have a lot of things in common. They both are expensive and well engineered pieces of transportation equipment. Both cost a lot to operate and a hell of a lot to insure. Both require a set of skills to operate and maintain, that few people have. Getting a Concorde up and running is one thing, but finding a entity who will operate it is another. Finding someone to insure it will be even tougher.

I am no expert, but those are the obstacles I see. I would love to see one fly again, but I am not keeping my fingers crossed.

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 10):
Concorde ain't comin' back, except in your dreams.

Kind of like an old girl friend.

Well put.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 4):
Concorde is not a "simple" DC3. It's not a matter of "age".

Plus there are lots of DC-3s still flying around. That goes back to my steam engine thoughts. There are a lot of smaller and less complex steam locomotive operating today. They are easier to repair, operate and cost less. In the 1980s and 1990s lost of organizations restored large mainline steam locomotives and ran them on excursions. There are still some operating, but many of them are now sitting cold. There are lots of smaller and less complex aircraft still in the air today that are older than the Concorde. Age isn't the issue it is operating costs.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 4962
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 16):
Age isn't the issue it is operating costs.

That, and as you said, insurance. Insurance companies do not like insuring things that nobody can quantify, and there was just not enough experience with Concorde to provide a good database. If it hadn't been for the Paris crash the Concorde could at least present an unblemished record, but that went up in smoke (literally.) The fact that Concorde was so much different than any other civil airplane means that if any insurance company looks at it they would only do so at prohibitive rates; i.e. the highest operating cost would be insurance. It isn't like JT's 707 at all.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
GDB
Posts: 12653
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:45 am

Want to see another Concorde flight?
(That's subsonic, airshow appearances only-the best you'd get).

That will be AT LEAST £100 million, probably nearer £150 million, please.
These are serious figures estimated by those who are best placed to make such an evaluation, so not including anyone from any of this campaigning groups.

Why so much?
For the same reason that BA, who investigated such a thing in 2003 found.
That will be the cost of re-instating the unique support network both BA and AF used, 4 years gone now.
So any idea that even if possible, an 'airshow' Concorde would be economically viable, was clear even before Concorde finished service.
BA found then, (and they knew more about this than anyone), that running an airshow Concorde would cost-once you got those initial start up figures I mentioned above out of the way, around the same to run a single non pax carrying Concorde as a revenue earning fleet.

Vulcan is a lot easier-and this effort is very late, almost collapsed last year, since many more were built, the spares holding is huge, many more people were intimate with the type, compared to Concorde.
Vulcan is also an order of magnitude less complex than Concorde, while all civil airliners are 'complex' they are usually built in the 100's or 1000's, not just 16 production, 14 service aircraft, that was Concorde. And operated by many more carriers when exponentially more people familiar with the type.
Concorde was also much more complex than a normal jetliner, if anyone doubts that, think of the flight envelope of a Mach 0.85 jetliner, and the Mach 2.04 Concorde.

In December 1997, the people who maintained the NASA Space Shuttle visited us at BA, they felt that Concorde, while in no sense a spacecraft, was still the nearest air vehicle they could investigate to look at issues like spares support, aging, maintaining expertise, when you are dealing with a small number of unique vehicles that were long out of production.
Consider this when assessing how likely a non airline organisation could operate a Concorde.

In service, with the support network fully intact and functioning, Concorde was much more expensive to operate, required many more man-hours, really ran on the expertise of a small number of people.
And constantly threw up challenges that tested even our large group of ex BAC types, who'd helped to build the things, before joining BA.

It won't happen folks, I was in the BA Concorde Engineering dept from April 1997, to the very last flight of G-BOAF to FZO on 26th Nov 2003.
Everything I saw then, convinced me that Concorde could only be operated by the airlines who had brought it in the first place.
I also saw how increasingly hard it became to support Concorde technically towards the end.

The idea of a bunch of amateurs with the odd retired, should know better, type, is laughable.
The CAA will NEVER wear it-if he had been serious, (but he wasn't), Branson was also told as much by the authorities in May 2003. Oddly enough, he failed to mention this.

Both the seemingly defunct, paranoid, SCG, and this latest bunch, should not be taken seriously, what very few ex Concorde people they have, themselves retired before the period when events conspired to end Concordes service life a few years early (had they not happened, Concorde would have retired by now anyway).

VC-10 is right to never say never, but the chances of any kind of Concorde return to flight is extremely slim, and with every day that passes, it gets slimmer still.

I know many do not want to hear this, even so, we are talking, even if we could somehow magic away the huge costs, serious engineering and certification issues, no room for hopes or dreams here, it's about what is possible, no other BS counts for anything.

And yes, I still really miss Concorde too.
 
Fairchild24
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:35 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:10 am

Well,Never say never
The Concorde at TLS is standing there with all vital parts coverd, The windows are sealed, the tyrers are coverd with aluminium blankets and they have some kind or humidity control in the cabin.
and if Russia and US is able to get a Tu-144 in the air why not the mighty Concorde,
Radial engine does not leak oil, they only mark there territory
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 4962
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:21 am

Quoting Fairchild24 (Reply 19):
and if Russia and US is able to get a Tu-144 in the air why not the mighty Concorde,

This is a government sponsored operation, IIRC. That is the only way Concorde could fly again, and there are no governments interested. Governments don't have to worry about insurance.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
cloudboy
Posts: 972
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:38 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:28 am

What is the status of the TU-144 anyway? I know Nasa was using it for a bit.

Do I think the Concorde could be made to fly again? Yes. Do I think it could be financially and logistically possible? Yes. We got it in the air the first time. It may be complex, but we have plenty of Supersonic Aircraft flying today in the military. It's no so specialized it will be lost.

The problem is there are too many egos, too many business interests that would be hurt for it to really happen. If the Concorde was up and flying again, then it would reflect badly on those who can't offer anything close to it. It would be bad to see it stealing the thunder form you regular offerings. And it could be potential marketing disaster if, god forbid, something did happen again. I would look bad for the engineering if a bunch of non-professionals or enthusiasts were making something far more complex and technical fly, and might prove all the theories about why something is technically impossible wrong. Insurance is always a great excuse, because there's no way to verify it, and everyone believes that insurance is ALWAYS a problem. But there are companies that do specialize in this stuff. Cheap it isn't but it isn't impossible. There would be huge potentials in marketing and promotion for it, and even some business practicality, too. But again, all that would be dangerous to the current business interests, who don't like change, because change always puts their advantage at risk. If the Concorde were to fly again, it would probably not be BA or AF who would do it, and that would more than likely have a negative effect on them. So why risk it? Just make sure none ever fly again.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 4962
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:38 am

Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 21):

The problem is there are too many egos, too many business interests that would be hurt for it to really happen

You should re-read GDB's post #18 again. Here is someone who knows what he is talking about, while you clearly do not. I see no egos or business interests that would be hurt by Concorde flying again; I know of no aviation enthusiast who would not like to see it. But it is just too expensive a proposition, and is highly unlikely to happen.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Fairchild24
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:35 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:49 am

Little bit of topic

I remember when I saw the Mighty Concorde IRL for the first time , it was around 1996-97 at ARN , and it was the "Pepsi" Concorde.
WOW, that´s what I call "Advertising"

The sound when she left, after that day I was in love. Forever.

Cheers

Göran
Radial engine does not leak oil, they only mark there territory
 
vc10
Posts: 1342
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:03 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 20):
This is a government sponsored operation,

You are quite correct in saying that it would have to be a government project to get Concorde into the air again and not wishing to stir things up , but you never know what the French long term plans are.

The insurance premium alone would be a problem for any private group as many groups who fly restored aircraft in Europe are finding out already.

However say a private group did get one airborne, are there enough big airshows in Europe that could afford to have it at their event? Not many, I would say, and not enough to cover the yearly running costs, so it flies passengers on round the bay charters, but why, it would not be able to fly supersonic well no faster than mach1.3 nor get to 60,000ft so what would they be paying probably over a £1000 a trip for and even if they did, for how many years would they be willing to do.

No, the best chance of seeing Concorde flying again would be as a short term research project or if the French President wanted to have the only supersonic Presidential aeroplane in the world .  

She was a beautiful aeroplane to fly, but was always tempermental and required a lot of expertise from both flight and ground crews to make here the limited success she became. I think both the manufacturers and the two airlines did a marvelous job to keep her going for so long, and almost without loss, so lets us remember her as she was in here glory days, and accept that all things have to come to an end sometime.

Let us hope though that the museums have enough money to spend, so as to keep their aircraft in good condition here for future generations to see in all her glory.

This is from someone who spent 23 years with the old girl and loved every moment [ well almost every moment as she could scare the life out of you on times] but you always forgave her, and like many of my colleagues I would like to see her stay retired and well maintained ,even if it only means people can admire her on the ground as even here she still is an amazing machine to look at

littlevc10

[Edited 2007-07-09 00:08:29]
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4076
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:29 am

Quoting Fairchild24 (Reply 19):
and if Russia and US is able to get a Tu-144 in the air why not the mighty Concorde,

That particular Tu-144 was mothballed in a particular state, with ongoing maintenance and a complete spares catalogue. The return to flight cost of that single Tu-144 which had been stored in ideal conditions, with both NASA and Tupolev involved, was upward of $150million.

No Concordes have been maintained in that state and that sort of funding is nowhere to be seen.


Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 21):
What is the status of the TU-144 anyway? I know Nasa was using it for a bit.

The Tu-144LL programme was defunded in 1999, but the airframe did not reenter extended storage as previously and is currently sitting at Gromov Flight Test Center.
 
theengineer
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:56 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:53 am

Some people really don't want to get it. Everything has its end. I would personally support this action if it would be 10 years ago.
 
User avatar
EGTESkyGod
Posts: 1460
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:27 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:01 am

Oh, dear...............

The fact that there are no spare parts left, the fact that Airbus won't support her maintenance issues, the fact that all the OEM's won't make the parts, the fact that BA/AF still own their own aircraft (meaning no-one can do anything major to them without BA/AF's permission) and the fact that £10-15 million is a masterpiece of understatement is the biggest indication of it not happening. Apart from all that, the CAA in the UK will not allow anyone other than BA/AF to maintain a Concorde airframe as only they have the necessary experience with the type. How do Save Concorde Group propose to get access to these airframes? BA have firmly said NO!!!

Concorde flew for the last time on November 26th 2003 from London Heathrow to Bristol Filton in the shape of G-BOAF. That is a historical fact. It is a fact that I cannot see changing unless something extremely drastic happens.

I regularly post on their forum, but am always smacked down for bringing up potential problems with some of their ideas. The latest activity on the forum has been one member, Gilbert, trying to bag me out about my cricket performances in recent times!!!

I really really really hope that they can do something that might benefit Concorde, but to date, they have done nothing except piss BA off, raise false hopes and smack those down that have constructive criticisms. Quite a few members there have floated ideas such as putting funds towards the preservation of each airframe, ie maybe donating something towards hangars being built for each airframe. However they say (somewhat naively in my opinion) that until there is absolutely zero chance of a Return To Flight, they will not stop pursuing it. Commendable that they have an "If at first you don't succeed...." attitude, but they don't seem to know exactly what constitutes zero chance.

Keep an eye on their forum, I'm sure I will be "Disciplined" for slamming the groups efforts on other forums, they might even ban me again. Yes, again. They banned me before for it while I was in Australia this winter!

We'd all love to see Concorde airborne again. There comes a time when people must accept things and let them lie. I am 99.9% convinced that I will never see that sight again, as much as I would love to see it. Save Concorde Group will never see that though..........
I came, I saw, I Concorde! RIP Michael Jackson
 
gh123
Posts: 645
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:09 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:14 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):
Seems that a Vulcan will be returning to flight

I met some guys in a pub back in the UK about a month ago - They were saying that the Vulcan will fly again very soon but I think that they had to send some of the parts back to the manufacturers due to a few minor problems.
 
cloudboy
Posts: 972
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:38 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:33 am

Quoting EGTESkyGod (Reply 27):
We'd all love to see Concorde airborne again. There comes a time when people must accept things and let them lie. I am 99.9% convinced that I will never see that sight again, as much as I would love to see it.

Would you really love to see it? Everyone who seems absolutely convinced that there is no reason to refly the Concorde loves to throw this in, as though they are going to convince us that they really want the plane to fly again. Yet they go so out of their way to convince people not to even think about it. Why? I think it's because these people have their fond memories of the plane, and while bittersweet, they remember fondly the goodbye and have had to make their peace and move on. They don't want to see that anguish again over seeing it stop flying a second time, or dare risk seeing an attempt to make it fly and fail, or even worse, to watch something go wrong with it. Or perhaps they are worried that it will become just a tourist attraction or carnival gag, becoming some side show to every airshow to the point where people are sick of seeing it.

There's a lot more to Concorde than just a few tourist flights or airshow appearances. The advertising dollars are the real ticket to success - a giant, flying billboard that really makes a statement. And not only is it a billboard, but flying theater - even if it does not reach supersonic, it still is an adventure to fly. Then again, perhaps supersonic is the way to go - what a trip to go out for a couple of hours, hit supersonic, and come back. Or, instead the cabin could be configurable - a great showroom on wings.

Of course, there is also the possibility of someone finding a way to provide service with the thing. Just because a large airline cannot tolerate the risk, a small, upcoming airline might. Instead of a whole bunch of moderately expensive seats, why not a flying palace? A super luxury charter, with only a handful of seats but in exquisite comfort. There is nothing else in the world anyone could be able to beat it with.

So why would BA or AF not want to fly the Concorde again? It's a matter of pride and reputation. It in no way helps BA to see the machine they decided to ground up and flying again, beating their own planes, showing that there is a faster option, but they just don't want to operate it. They have claimed that it just won't work, so it certainly is not a good idea to let someone take the thing and actually make a profit on it, no matter if that is an airline or a marketing tool. And if in fact there does come a time when insurance costs go down, and fuel costs go down, and wealth goes up and there is a market for it again, you want to have that for yourself. You don't want you opponents getting it. For that matter, why not build a new one? Designs have to exist if it was built. But again national and business pride would be hurt if the idea was sullied by every start-up trying to launch supersonic flight.

No, the real reason why the Concorde won't fly again is because the fans and the industry and the nation really would not want to see it fly again.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:57 am

Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 29):
Everyone who seems absolutely convinced that there is no reason to refly the Concorde loves to throw this in, as though they are going to convince us that they really want the plane to fly again. Yet they go so out of their way to convince people not to even think about it.

When 'everyone seems absolutely convinced' about something, there's usually a good reason. In this case the chances of Concordw flying again are almost zero.

I'm one of those people who'd love to see it flying again .... what the heck has that got to do with the fact that I'm fairly well educated in the costs involved, and they are huge ... Those 2 points have nothing to do with each other.

Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 29):
A super luxury charter, with only a handful of seats but in exquisite comfort.

Oh yes, one of the largest airlines in the world couldn't make money with it, but a luxury charter will have no problem, right  Yeah sure

Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 29):
Then again, perhaps supersonic is the way to go - what a trip to go out for a couple of hours, hit supersonic, and come back.

Yep, BA tried that also.

Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 29):
They have claimed that it just won't work, so it certainly is not a good idea to let someone take the thing and actually make a profit on it, no matter if that is an airline or a marketing tool.

Well, first of all, they didn't claim it, they PROVED it. Second, nobody is going to make a profit on it. If by some miracle, it flies, again, it will be at the cost of many rich investors and charitable donations.

Cloudboy, you need to some down from those clouds. No offense, but seem a little ignorant of most of the issues involved.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
User avatar
Embajador3
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:28 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:34 am

Quoting Jenkingeorge (Thread starter):
The scheme is estimated to cost £10 - £15 million

With all due respect, it would such a waste. Those millions could be used to help people scape poverty, to help fight cancer and other diseases, etc. And they want to spend them in such a superficial thing... .
Flying Together
 
cloudboy
Posts: 972
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:38 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:14 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 30):
When 'everyone seems absolutely convinced' about something, there's usually a good reason. In this case the chances of Concordw flying again are almost zero.

I'm one of those people who'd love to see it flying again .... what the heck has that got to do with the fact that I'm fairly well educated in the costs involved, and they are huge ... Those 2 points have nothing to do with each other.

Everyone was convinced the world was flat. Everyone was convinced man couldn't fly. And everyone was convinced the Concorde couldn't even be built. Majority does not make truth. And as far as what it has got to do with the issue, if you wanted to see it fly, why are you so h*** bent on proving it can't happen?

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 30):
Oh yes, one of the largest airlines in the world couldn't make money with it, but a luxury charter will have no problem, right Yeah sure

Several of the World's Largest airlines couldn't even stay afloat. Just because one company can't find success with it doesn't mean someone else can. That has been proven time and time again. In fact, the fact that BA simply was caught up in traditional operations with the plane is a good argument why a company with a lot more vision might have more success with it.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 30):
Yep, BA tried that also.

As what? For what purpose - just a ride? Think a little outside the box - this is marketing. What kind of $1000 plate dinner fund raiser could you throw? What better way to promote your new fashion line than at the speed of sound?

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 30):
Well, first of all, they didn't claim it, they PROVED it. Second, nobody is going to make a profit on it. If by some miracle, it flies, again, it will be at the cost of many rich investors and charitable donations.

Nothing has been proved. That's just an opinion people have tried to support with figures. No one has done it, therefor it can't be proven or disproved. And the fact that so many are saying impossible just upon a few arguments leads me to believe there is less real study behind it than people simply wanting to keep it from flying.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 30):
Cloudboy, you need to some down from those clouds. No offense, but seem a little ignorant of most of the issues involved.

Perhaps it's time to start pulling people's heads form out of the clouds and start making them see new opportunities and new options. Just because BA operated it as a traditional airliner with traditional operating ideas, doesn't mean that it can't work in another way. This industry is rife with people who can' think of new ideas, who actively seek to squash new ideas, simply due to fear of change. This isn't just the Concorde, but the whole airline industry. I'm tired of the "it won't work" attitude aviation people have. Time and time again they eventually get proved wrong. But they hurt themselves, they hurt their customers and the hurt the economy in the process. If you think it's a bad idea, then don't invest in it. But don't actively seek to prevent other people - either through regulation, business practices, or just plain badmouthing, from doing it.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:44 am

Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 32):
And as far as what it has got to do with the issue, if you wanted to see it fly, why are you so h*** bent on proving it can't happen?

 confused 

Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 32):
I'm tired of the "it won't work" attitude aviation people have.

 confused 

Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 32):
But don't actively seek to prevent other people - either through regulation, business practices, or just plain badmouthing, from doing it.

 confused 


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
WhiteBirdFlyer
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:18 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:54 am

Since the folks that actually flew and worked on the Concorde posting here rate the chances at next-to-nothing that the White Bird will ever fly again (under its own power) I'm inclined to agree with them. However, one should probably not totally count out the ego and power of a billionaire or several, revved up with 20-year old scotch and dreams of more power and further prestige, thinking of, for instance, ways to out-do the person that has apparently ordered an A380 for private use.

All in all the chances of another Concorde flight seem very dim to me but not entirely impossible. There aren't many mechanical things that can't be fixed given enough money and time. More the former than the latter it seems, but still, there might be someone willing to put that much into an incredibly fast but expensive pipe dream and attempt to make it fly.

Cordially,
WhiteBirdFlyer
WhiteBirdFlyer, currently near SFO
 
gh123
Posts: 645
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:09 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:09 am

Quoting Embajador3 (Reply 31):
With all due respect, it would such a waste. Those millions could be used to help people scape poverty, to help fight cancer and other diseases, etc. And they want to spend them in such a superficial thing...

For crying out loud. What a stupid thing to say. If everyone in the world did what you are saying then not only would nothing ever get done but more to the point we would all be out of a job.

Look at the bigger picture.
 
A5XX
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:36 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:25 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 12):
Concorde's next flying mission will be transporting snowballs from Hell.

Never say never. Nothing is impossible. It'll take a huge pile of cash, to bring the Concorde back, but its possible.

What's life, without dreaming?

Dreams, made what humanity is, right now.

A5XX
we are the boeing... resistance is futile...You will be assimilated
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 9853
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:38 pm

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 7):
Concorde has also lost its Airworthiness Certificate IIRC. Would this be an issue for a rehabilitation, or not?

Airbus withdrew the Type Certificate Data Sheet, this is a common way for manufacturers to prevent the aircraft from returning to commercial service, if it were to fly again it would only be an experimental aircraft. Beech did similar for the Starship.

Personally, I would rather have a English Electric Lightning over a Concorde, Mach 2.2 and a whole lot more fun.

We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
tonymctigue
Posts: 997
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:01 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:58 pm

What would be the point. Even if they could raise the funds to get Concorde airworthy again, how do they propose to make enough money to keep it airborn? Lets remind ourselves that even though it was a technological marvel & I love if from that perspective, it was a total economic disaster. Both BA & AF struggled for years to generate revenue from operating Concorde & lets face it, if they couldn't make money on it afer years of trying, how does a fundraising committee intend to make profits with it? There would have to be continuous fundraising because it just is not possible to generate engough revenue from it to keep it flying.
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
GDB
Posts: 12653
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:53 pm

Oh for heaven's sake cloudboy, egos do NOT come into it.
Where do these bizarre ideas come from?
It's about real life, real massive costs, real serious engineering and certification issues.

Actually, you have a point in one way, there are egos involved on one level, the egos of those who should know better, but still trot out this line of it's do-able while ignoring the issues I pointed out in reply 18.
 
User avatar
EGTESkyGod
Posts: 1460
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:27 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:13 pm

Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 32):
In fact, the fact that BA simply was caught up in traditional operations with the plane is a good argument why a company with a lot more vision might have more success with it.

A company with a lot more vision only has that, vision. BA and AF own their aircraft..... they are not for sale. If they were sold to another company, they'd be useless as the CAA will not allow anyone other than BA or AF to operate and maintain Concorde. In fact, the CAA will not even allow them to operate it anymore as there is no Type Certificate, etc.

Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 29):
Of course, there is also the possibility of someone finding a way to provide service with the thing. Just because a large airline cannot tolerate the risk, a small, upcoming airline might. Instead of a whole bunch of moderately expensive seats, why not a flying palace? A super luxury charter, with only a handful of seats but in exquisite comfort. There is nothing else in the world anyone could be able to beat it with.

No. See what I just said.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 30):
Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 29):
Everyone who seems absolutely convinced that there is no reason to refly the Concorde loves to throw this in, as though they are going to convince us that they really want the plane to fly again. Yet they go so out of their way to convince people not to even think about it.

When 'everyone seems absolutely convinced' about something, there's usually a good reason. In this case the chances of Concorde flying again are almost zero.

I'm one of those people who'd love to see it flying again .... what the heck has that got to do with the fact that I'm fairly well educated in the costs involved, and they are huge ... Those 2 points have nothing to do with each other.

Jimbo, I couldn't have put it better myself. Cloudboy, yes, I really WOULD love to see Concorde flying again. However, through taking notice of GDB (involved in Concorde to the very end), Gordon Roxburgh (www.concordesst.com) and being involved in the restoration of G-BBDG at Brooklands and speaking with the ex-Concorde engineers etc and Gordon, who ran the project, I cannot see any way of it happening. And if there was a way, don't you think that someone would have thought of it by now? Nearly 4 years after the last flight?
I came, I saw, I Concorde! RIP Michael Jackson
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:51 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:30 pm

Good Lord, people- let them rest, and move on. If you don't, you'll end up like many Canadians (and I know I'm about to annoy a lot of fellow Canadians-sorry) who can't move on from the whole Avro Arrow thing. Decades later, and they're still whining and complaining and saying "what if". The past is past, and you're far better off to put that energy into the future of aviation. Remember the Concordes for the great aircraft they were, and leave it at that. There's nothing worse than an aging sports figure/musician/actor past their prime trying to make a sad attempt at a comeback. Hang up your skates, and retire with grace.
 
gkirk
Posts: 23346
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:38 pm

Just leave the Concordes to rest in peace.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
User avatar
khelmDTW
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:55 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:34 pm

That would be awesome!! I'd help pay to get Concorde flying again. I really miss that Jet Age icon!
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration"
 
User avatar
Embajador3
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:28 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:46 pm

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 35):
For crying out loud. What a stupid thing to say. If everyone in the world did what you are saying then not only would nothing ever get done but more to the point we would all be out of a job.

Look at the bigger picture.

Again, even if you have something to do with this, i maintain my position: to use 15 million for the 'revival' of the Concorde would be a waste. Let the beast rest in peace.
Flying Together
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 4962
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:18 pm

Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 29):

No, the real reason why the Concorde won't fly again is because the fans and the industry and the nation really would not want to see it fly again.



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 30):
Cloudboy, you need to some down from those clouds. No offense, but seem a little ignorant of most of the issues involved.

I was going to say something like that, but Bond007 said it better

Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 32):
Several of the World's Largest airlines couldn't even stay afloat. Just because one company can't find success with it doesn't mean someone else can. That has been proven time and time again. In fact, the fact that BA simply was caught up in traditional operations with the plane is a good argument why a company with a lot more vision might have more success with it.

The simple fact is that BA and AF own the planes, are not about to sell them, and the respective authorities will only allow them to even think of flying them. What do you propose to do, hijack them?

Quoting EGTESkyGod (Reply 40):
A company with a lot more vision only has that, vision. BA and AF own their aircraft..... they are not for sale. If they were sold to another company, they'd be useless as the CAA will not allow anyone other than BA or AF to operate and maintain Concorde. In fact, the CAA will not even allow them to operate it anymore as there is no Type Certificate, etc.



Quoting Embajador3 (Reply 44):

Again, even if you have something to do with this, i maintain my position: to use 15 million for the 'revival' of the Concorde would be a waste. Let the beast rest in peace.

Try multiplying that by a factor of AT LEAST 10, according to the people who have posted here who know the situation.
Finally, consider this: Any insurance company who looks at this is probably going to figure the chances of a new group, even if it is composed of people who worked with the Concorde, is going to have a very substantial chance of having a crash. I would put that likelihood as 1 in 4 if I were rating it. Figure that the minimum insurance required to fly a plane like that would be $100 million; you're talking $25 million just for insurance, if anyone would touch it, which I doubt. I speak from experience; I was running a small airport in Vermont and was put out of business because NO insurance company would write commercial insurance in the state of Vermont at the time. It wasn't a case of losses or anything like that; it was a case that the People's Republic of Vermont was a very unfriendly place for insurance companies to do business. Nobody can force an insurance company to write insurance that they don't want to; and in this case I can't imagine that an insurance executive in his right mind would even consider it.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
gh123
Posts: 645
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:09 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:47 pm

Quoting Embajador3 (Reply 44):
Quoting Gh123 (Reply 35):
For crying out loud. What a stupid thing to say. If everyone in the world did what you are saying then not only would nothing ever get done but more to the point we would all be out of a job.

Look at the bigger picture.

Again, even if you have something to do with this, i maintain my position: to use 15 million for the 'revival' of the Concorde would be a waste. Let the beast rest in peace.

I don't work in Aviation so I don't have anything to do with Concorde. But as I said before, if everyone adopted your opinion then the world would come to a grinding halt and we would both be jobless.
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5182
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:02 pm

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 46):
I don't work in Aviation so I don't have anything to do with Concorde. But as I said before, if everyone adopted your opinion then the world would come to a grinding halt and we would both be jobless.

I do work in Aviation.
I 've been serving Concorde for several years.
I have 1354 hours of flight on Concorde, which is a lot, believe me !

Nobody else would wish more than I do to see and hear Concorde taking off again, even for a single demonstration flight.

Of course, everybody can keep on dreaming ... but we also must see the facts and the tough reality !
As GDB said, it is not a matter of Politics, egos ot whatever, it's a matter of costs, maintenance, certification, technical and engineering.
And finally, as said already above, all the Concorde remain the property of their owners BA and AF. Without a real wish from BA and/or AF to organize a "return to the skies", nobody else could do anything.
 
cloudboy
Posts: 972
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:38 pm

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:57 pm

Quoting EGTESkyGod (Reply 40):
A company with a lot more vision only has that, vision. BA and AF own their aircraft..... they are not for sale. If they were sold to another company, they'd be useless as the CAA will not allow anyone other than BA or AF to operate and maintain Concorde. In fact, the CAA will not even allow them to operate it anymore as there is no Type Certificate, etc.

And that is precisely my point. It is not the technical aspects that are preventing Concorde from ever flying again. It is not the insurance or the innovative ideas - marketers and Sir Richard Branson have been after them for years. What is preventing it from ever flying again is a couple of conventional airlines and government pride, supported in part by the fans who are afraid of the plane overstaying it's welcome.

Quoting Avt007 (Reply 41):
The past is past, and you're far better off to put that energy into the future of aviation. Remember the Concordes for the great aircraft they were, and leave it at that. There's nothing worse than an aging sports figure/musician/actor past their prime trying to make a sad attempt at a comeback. Hang up your skates, and retire with grace.

So, will it likely return to the slys? No. And I am not sure I relish the idea of it being turned into a giant flying billboard myself. But let's not go around saying that technically it is impossible. Because technically it isn't. And even if the idea is not appealing to you, odoesn't mean there is nothing in it for someone else.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
David L
Posts: 8548
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: The Return Of Concorde To The Skies...

Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:02 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 30):
Oh yes, one of the largest airlines in the world couldn't make money with it, but a luxury charter will have no problem, right

Strictly speaking, they were just approaching the point where they wouldn't be able to continue to make money out of it.  Smile

Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 32):
And as far as what it has got to do with the issue, if you wanted to see it fly, why are you so h*** bent on proving it can't happen?

People who know a lot about Concorde operations, from personal experience, are being realistic. If you think anything can happen as long as you "believe", then knock yourself out.

Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 32):
In fact, the fact that BA simply was caught up in traditional operations with the plane is a good argument why a company with a lot more vision might have more success with it.

BA invested a lot of money in Concorde and did very well out of it. They weren't exactly clueless. Are you aware that BA did make money from Concorde operations and flew many charter flights?

Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 32):
But don't actively seek to prevent other people - either through regulation, business practices, or just plain badmouthing, from doing it.

Such as? Examples, please of anyone here actively trying to prevent anything. Or, by "But don't actively seek to prevent other people - either through regulation, business practices, or just plain badmouthing, from doing it", do you really mean "don't give me good reasons"

And, before you waste your breath telling me what I think, let me tell you that I would love to see Concorde flying again - that's it, end of discussion. I just don't believe it will happen, based on the views of people who know better. I would really like to go to the moon. Does the fact that I can give you several reasons why it won't happen mean I don't want to go to the moon?  confused 

If you want to talk about politics and egos, you might want to consider that BA spent a lot of money making Concorde what it became. I don't know the story of Air France operations, but if those two airlines hadn't done so much with Concorde, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. That's one reason why I don't believe they have any obligation to hand them over to someone else to get the glory.