jimyvr
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ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:43 am

http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20070709-00000401-yom-bus_all

ANA unveiled another 787 route. This time, Frankfurt. It'll replace 747-400 service on Tokyo - Frankfurt by 2009, but frequency will be 2 daily.

Also, 737-700 will be flying to Russia, primarily Moscow and St. Petersburg by 2009.
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ikramerica
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:53 am

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
It'll replace 747-400 service on Tokyo - Frankfurt by 2009, but frequency will be 2 daily.

And yet NRT is slot restricted and FRA is over-crowded. How can this be?

Over twice the cargo, more flexibility, more frequency... must be of some value to somebody...
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addd
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:08 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
Also, 737-700 will be flying to Russia, primarily Moscow and St. Petersburg by 2009

737 from Japan to Moscow/St Petersburg? It is 4050 nautical miles between Tokyo and Moscow - I know it is technically with the range of a 737-700ER, but isn't that a litlle too far for a small narrow-body?
 
PanAm747LHR
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:12 pm

Quoting Addd (Reply 2):
737 from Japan to Moscow/St Petersburg? It is 4050 nautical miles between Tokyo and Moscow - I know it is technically with the range of a 737-700ER, but isn't that a litlle too far for a small narrow-body?

ANA will configure their 737s much the way Air France has configured the A319s in their Dedicate fleet - with about 50% business class and 50% coach, and both will roughly be equivalent to their long haul product for these classes.
Here's the layout. http://www.ana.co.jp/wws/us/eng/int/...ight/seatmap/b737_700er/index.html
Hope that helps out!

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behramjee
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:12 pm

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
Also, 737-700 will be flying to Russia, primarily Moscow and St. Petersburg by 2009.

i believe this is the all business class B 737-700X with 36 J class seats only that will be used for the NRT-DME route.
 
jimyvr
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:31 pm

Not 1 but 3 routes for ANA 787:

New York for additional frequency increase
Mumbai (by 2009 to replace 737-700ER)

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/tabi/news/20070709tb02.htm
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MaverickM11
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:37 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
And yet NRT is slot restricted and FRA is over-crowded. How can this be?

I'm glad I'm not an A380 salesman right about now Silly
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JoFMO
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:38 pm

I had hopes they would bring the 787 to DUS and keep FRA 773. DUS has the biggest Japanese community in Europe and most major Japanese corporations have their head office in the region. ANA even offers a dedicated Bus service for its passengers from DUS to FRA.
 
jacobin777
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:42 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
It'll replace 747-400 service on Tokyo - Frankfurt by 2009, but frequency will be 2 daily.

And yet NRT is slot restricted and FRA is over-crowded. How can this be?

..they just don't know what they are doing....think about it, they are also down-guaging NRT-LHR too.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
ikramerica
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:42 pm

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 7):
DUS has the biggest Japanese community in Europe and most major Japanese corporations have their head office in the region. ANA even offers a dedicated Bus service for its passengers from DUS to FRA

But what is the cargo facility like at DUS? That is part of the story...
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JoFMO
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:06 pm

FRA-NRT will become an interesting route. LH mentioned that they might use the A380 to NRT. So we then will see 2 ANA 787 vs 1 LH 380.
I hope both strategies work out for them.
 
TreeHillRavens
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:10 pm

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 3):
ANA will configure their 737s much the way Air France has configured the A319s in their Dedicate fleet - with about 50% business class and 50% coach, and both will roughly be equivalent to their long haul product for these classes.
Here's the layout. http://www.ana.co.jp/wws/us/eng/int/....html

The ANA B737-700ER however, is a more premium configured plane. Club ANA comes with lie-flat Business seat (65" pitch) while the Premium Economy section has 38" pitch.
 
fvtu134
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:19 pm

With Toyota about to open a plant in St Petersburg, and Nissan plant under construction (and talk about a Mitsubishi and Suzuki Plant) the Japanese business community in St Petersburg is on the rise (along with a lot of Japanese suppliers also opening up shop). This is probably why they are opening up shop with a small but good business offering.

FVTu134
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Danny
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:23 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
And yet NRT is slot restricted and FRA is over-crowded. How can this be?

Over twice the cargo, more flexibility, more frequency... must be of some value to somebody...

Or simply no alternative... until they get A380.
 
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zeke
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:32 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 13):

Or simply no alternative... until they get A380.

Which Japanense carrier was in the news recently looking at the A380 ?
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Aaron747
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:52 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 8):
..they just don't know what they are doing....think about it, they are also down-guaging NRT-LHR too.....

Yes, they don't know what they're doing...which is why in 20 years they've gone from a relatively minor player in Japan to the most respected and profitable airline company in the country.  Yeah sure
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LifelinerOne
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
And yet NRT is slot restricted and FRA is over-crowded. How can this be?

They could have axed a flight from FRA to another destination to free up a slot for FRA.....

Cheers!  wave 
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naritaflyer
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:42 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 15):
Yes, they don't know what they're doing...which is why in 20 years they've gone from a relatively minor player in Japan to the most respected and profitable airline company in the country.

ANA is my favourite airline in the world bar none. You can say all you want about Singapore or Emirates, In my opinion they don't come close to ANA in service. No need to hijack this thread by getting into an argument as to which is airline is better yada yada yada... all I want to say is that it's unfair to say that management doesn't know what it's doing by downgauging flights to 787s.
 
max999
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:26 am

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 5):
Not 1 but 3 routes for ANA 787:

New York for additional frequency increase

Wow! JFK will be one of the first airports in the world getting multiple 787's. The ANA flight and the NW flight. NW has confirmed that their first 787 flight will be JFK-NRT.
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yanksn4
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting Jimyvr (Reply 5):
Not 1 but 3 routes for ANA 787:

New York for additional frequency increase
Mumbai (by 2009 to replace 737-700ER)

still hoping for an announcement of operations to DEN.  pray 
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spacecadet
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:26 am

Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 19):
ANA is my favourite airline in the world bar none. You can say all you want about Singapore or Emirates, In my opinion they don't come close to ANA in service. No need to hijack this thread by getting into an argument as to which is airline is better yada yada yada... all I want to say is that it's unfair to say that management doesn't know what it's doing by downgauging flights to 787s.

ANA is a great airline, but honestly I don't think they're that much better than JAL despite the divergent reputations. In fact, JAL went way above and beyond what I'd have expected of any airline in retrieving a lost jacket that I'd left on a plane for me the last time I went to Japan. They practically got the entire terminal working to find my jacket (and they did).

I personally think downsizing from a 744 to a 787 is short-sighted. Let me tell you about my last trip to Japan. I normally fly ANA, and back when they flew 744's JFK-NRT, there was enough space that you could get a ticket fairly cheaply up until a few weeks before the flight. They'd always sell out eventually, but not that early. My last trip, though, with the smaller 777 now on that route, their ticket prices were totally janked like 2 months in advance. Way higher than anybody else. I ended up flying JAL, which still runs 744's on that route (not for much longer, I know), because they were cheaper and I figured they couldn't be *that* much different. And I had a good experience on JAL, and I will fly them again. So, that's a net minus for ANA right there, because I fly to Japan about once a year. Short term they've gained some fuel savings, but long term they're pushing their pax to other carriers.

As price conscious as passengers are (though service does matter to me), I think it's stupid to be purposely downsizing to planes that are clearly too small for the routes they're serving. Customer loyalty only goes so far - once somebody is forced to fly another airline and has a good experience with them, they may no longer be so loyal.

It would be one thing if ANA really *could* increase frequency and just do two trips per day to cities like JFK instead of one... but they can't. If you *can* sell X number of seats per day, then you need to be selling X number of seats per day to wrap up those customers and not some number smaller than X in the name of short term fuel savings.
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PanHAM
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:29 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
But what is the cargo facility like at DUS? That is part of the story...

state of the art, can handle anything and receives weekly EK 747Fs Big local catchment area and even the connectivity improves as DUS has a lot of direct flights all over Europe and DUS is emerging as the #3 airport in Germany but it'snot a *hub
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Joost
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:42 am

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 27):
I personally think downsizing from a 744 to a 787 is short-sighted.

They are not downsizing. They are replacing one daily 744 by a two daily 788s, which is actually a capacity increase.
 
MD-90
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 13):

Or simply no alternative... until they get A380.

If they need the cargo uplift, an A380 would be even worse than the 744.
 
stylo777
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:48 am

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 10):
ANA 787 vs 1 LH 380.

LH A380 vs. 2x NH B787 vs. JL 77W  Wink
 
jacobin777
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:59 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 15):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 8):
..they just don't know what they are doing....think about it, they are also down-guaging NRT-LHR too.....

Yes, they don't know what they're doing...which is why in 20 years they've gone from a relatively minor player in Japan to the most respected and profitable airline company in the country.

....er, I was taking the piss.... Smile
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ikramerica
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:07 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 13):
Or simply no alternative... until they get A380.

They fly the 744 now. They already have an alternative to two 788s

They could get A380s in 2010 if they wanted, if it was that urgent.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):
state of the art, can handle anything and receives weekly EK 747Fs Big local catchment area and even the connectivity improves as DUS has a lot of direct flights all over Europe and DUS is emerging as the #3 airport

What I mean is, does it make sense for NH to split it's cargo between the two airports, or does it make more sense to centralize it at FRA and bus the passengers to DUS? I don't know the answer. It's just a question.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
spacecadet
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:22 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 22):
They are not downsizing. They are replacing one daily 744 by a two daily 788s, which is actually a capacity increase.

They've said that's their plan, but plans and reality often don't meet, especially when you're dealing with slot-limited airports. They *have* reduced capacity on many 744 routes already. I don't see why a 788 replacing a 744 would work any different than a 773 replacing a 744, as has already happened in many cases.

JAL is doing the same thing, so it's probably not that ANA will be at a competitive disadvantage in terms of capacity on most international routes. But they are on domestic routes, where they also need to compete with Japan Railway and the shinkansen system. And I still maintain that whichever airline between JAL and ANA buys either the 748 or the A380 first is going to dominate whatever routes they put them on, and that will force the others' hand. I think that when people talk about revenue and cost per seat mile or other stats like that, they forget the fact that supply and demand determine actual ticket prices paid, and passengers will naturally gravitate over time towards the cheaper flights. So if one airline is flying an A380 and the other a 787, and they're only doing one flight per day (as JAL and ANA are on most international routes), the A380 flight will be much cheaper for most passengers - and more available. A point of equilibrium will be reached whereby the A380 flight consistently attracts more passengers, since there's more capacity to fill before ticket prices equalize between the two competing flights.

On routes like JFK-NRT, at least, there is often more demand than supply even running 744's, and even as JAL does 10 times weekly (or maybe even more?). 787's are not going to be big enough on those routes, at least not for the Japanese carriers, just as 777's really aren't big enough now.

American carriers may be a different story, as I understand their yields are lower to Japan - they're not the preferred airlines for Japanese fliers. But I have never flown a 744 to Japan on JAL or ANA that wasn't 100% full.

The 787 will be a temporary solution to the cost problem on these routes; mark my words. We'll see if in five years time either JAL or ANA is still flying them on high-demand international routes.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
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Aaron747
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:42 am

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 27):
On routes like JFK-NRT, at least, there is often more demand than supply even running 744's, and even as JAL does 10 times weekly (or maybe even more?). 787's are not going to be big enough on those routes, at least not for the Japanese carriers, just as 777's really aren't big enough now.

You're forgetting something crucial about the Japanese market. JAL has 10 flights a week that are full because they have longstanding agreements with the ticket consolidators that have a stranglehold on economy class tickets in this country, which has eaten into their revenue long term. Japanese companies will often continue business relationships that aren't entirely advantageous due to obligation and being on good terms for a long time. ANA hasn't been in the same boat and has more flexibility to determine the market niche they're going after, and in terms of the Japanese traveler, they've clearly gone after the high end of the market. There are plenty of loyal passengers who would never consider JAL and will pay a premium no matter what ANA charges. To this end, the reputation they've built has served them well, and as long as they don't lose their premium revenue focus, they will no doubt continue to deliver.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
zvezda
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:50 am

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 20):
I personally think downsizing from a 744 to a 787 is short-sighted. Let me tell you about my last trip to Japan. I normally fly ANA, and back when they flew 744's JFK-NRT, there was enough space that you could get a ticket fairly cheaply up until a few weeks before the flight. They'd always sell out eventually, but not that early. My last trip, though, with the smaller 777 now on that route, their ticket prices were totally janked (sic) like 2 months in advance. Way higher than anybody else.

For the airline, it is much better to sell somewhat fewer tickets at "totally jacked" prices than to sell a few more tickets at a loss.
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:11 am

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 20):

I personally think downsizing from a 744 to a 787 is short-sighted. Let me tell you about my last trip to Japan. I normally fly ANA, and back when they flew 744's JFK-NRT, there was enough space that you could get a ticket fairly cheaply up until a few weeks before the flight. They'd always sell out eventually, but not that early. My last trip, though, with the smaller 777 now on that route, their ticket prices were totally janked like 2 months in advance. Way higher than anybody else.

This has been ANA's strategy recently. They're trying to increase profits by using smaller a/c to improve yields...and it's working for them. In J/F ANA attracts the service oriented pax who pay. Even after UA moved JFK-NRT to IAD-NRT, NH's yields are significantly higher. In my experience on UA and NH, NH is predominately Japanese pax and UA is mostly American.

Since NH/JL are dominant at NRT (as in they have the most traffic/slots), ANA can replace 1 744 with 2 788 without slot concerns.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
PanHAM
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:50 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 26):

What I mean is, does it make sense for NH to split it's cargo between the two airports, or does it make more sense to centralize it at FRA and bus the passengers to DUS? I don't know the answer. It's just a questi

In these days, with handling agents all over and no airline making the physical handling themselves, it does not really make a difference. You pay set fees per kg, regardless where it's handled and lots is trucked
from other stations anyhow, They have sales and marketing reps in DUS now, not sure if they have a real office there but that is not needed these days any longer, with toll free numbers.

The additonal costs would come from a station in DUS, which would need about 2-3 people, sourcing out check-in, handling and line MX to the alliance partner..
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airbuseric
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:16 pm

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 7):
ANA even offers a dedicated Bus service for its passengers from DUS to FRA.

Nothing really special on this. JL does a same service in full dedicated JAL-bus from BRU to AMS. It can just be seen as a feederservice for own passengers. No need to hassle to trainstations and find your way as the Japanese passenger just arrived in Europe after a long flight.

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 24):
LH A380 vs. 2x NH B787 vs. JL 77W

I tell you, you will see more 787's (also JL's) flying to Europe sooner then later   So maybe your statement might be wrong...

[Edited 2007-07-10 09:16:59]
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SailorOrion
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RE: ANA 737 To Russia; 788 Replace 744 To FRA

Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:24 pm

First of all, LH is not going to send A380s to NRT in a hurry, because traffic rights between Germany and Japan are not on a flight basis, but on a seat basis.

Secondly, two 788s offer more capacity than one 744 on the route (as Japanese carriers have not yet used the full number of weekly seats they may fly)

Thirdly, slots in RJAA/NRT are assigned per runway. Slots on 16R/34L are extremely scarce, slots on 16L/34R are still available. By moving the FRA flights to 16L/34R (since the 788s can land there), ANA frees up a very valuable landing slot on 16R/34L.

SailorOrion

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