gkirk
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Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:31 pm

http://icnewcastle.icnetwork.co.uk/s...424703&siteid=50081-name_page.html

Hmmm....surely the eejit could have prayed in the departure lounge or at least waited until he got to Malaga? But I suppose booting him off the flight was a total over reaction as well.
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avt007
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:35 pm

Sounds like they over reacted, but at the same time, what the heck? "Hold on, can everyone just wait and stop the whole boarding/ pushback/takeoff thing while I pray?" I don't think so, mate.
 
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OA260
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:35 pm

To be honest he could have waited until he got to AGP or done it in NCL. With the heightened tentions after last week he should have made allowances. Why stir up something when he knew it would provoke a reaction!!! Is there no prayer room for all religions in NCL??? I know some airports have them. Whilst he has a right to pray the airline also has the right to deny boarding but they would have been better just refusing him access to the galley as this is a staff area.
 
gkirk
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:40 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
Is there no prayer room for all religions in NCL???

There is one located in the terminal building.
http://www.newcastleairport.com/Airport+Facilities/prayer-room.htm
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OA260
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:42 pm

Quoting Avt007 (Reply 1):
Sounds like they over reacted, but at the same time, what the heck? "Hold on, can everyone just wait and stop the whole boarding/ pushback/takeoff thing while I pray?" I don't think so, mate.



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 3):
There is one located in the terminal building.
http://www.newcastleairport.com/Airp...m.htm

Well then there is really no excuse. Sounds like he was trying to make a statement!! Something that isnt welcome. He is on a British airline and should respect local laws. The same way a Catholic or Hindu has no right to pray in a galley.
 
EDICHC
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:58 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 4):
Sounds like he was trying to make a statement!!

Given recent events I would say he was pushing his luck!
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avt007
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:09 pm

Chances are he was just a young guy who hadn't flown much before, if at all, and didn't realize you just can't kneel in the galley for 10 minutes while they are getting ready for a flight. Add to that a jumpy flight crew, and presto! A big news story.
 
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Qatara340
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:17 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
To be honest he could have waited until he got to AGP or done it in NCL. With the heightened tentions after last week he should have made allowances. Why stir up something when he knew it would provoke a reaction!!! Is there no prayer room for all religions in NCL??? I know some airports have them. Whilst he has a right to pray the airline also has the right to deny boarding but they would have been better just refusing him access to the galley as this is a staff area.

If I want to pray on planes, I usually pray while seated down. We dont have to knell down if we can't do that... Praying is obligatory 5 times a day for all Muslims. But, the way the man shouldve prayed was sitting down and not making a scene in front of people. Or at least pray at home.

When Muslims travel, Islam allows them to shortren their praying and combine 2 prayings in to one shorterned one, so that the person does not have to pray as often. This is one of the blessings of Islam.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
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OA260
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:23 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 7):
Praying is obligatory 5 times a day for all Muslims

Yes I know from my time spent in Iran. As you said he could have done it whilst seated. I think it all comes down to compromise and common sense on both sides.
 
ACEregular
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:44 pm

I have seen many people of different race and religions happily praying in thier seats, only once has someone asked me if they could pray anywhere else but his seat - a Jewish Man. They did this in the galley however we did not leave him to his own devices. I see the Galley as a staff room, I would not walk into the staff room of a shop or ask to have unsupervised access to it. There is no way I would let anyone regardless of race in the galley with privacy and curtain, they could be doing anything in there. Crew keep personal items in there and also its full of products which the crew are responsible for. This also brings me to my next rant, why is it Passengers think they can just stand there while we are eating our dinner and spark up conversation. I am going to try it next time I am in a shop or something, and see how long it takes before I get kicked out.
 
7LBAC111
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:53 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 4):
is on a British airline and should respect local laws. The same way a Catholic or Hindu has no right to pray in a galley

Law has nothing to do with it. Common sense is all that prevails in this instance. And who was to say that this guy wasn't British anyway.....?

7L
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OA260
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:57 pm

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 10):
Law has nothing to do with it. Common sense is all that prevails in this instance. And who was to say that this guy wasn't British anyway.....?

You missed the point. It cant be safe for someone to be taking up the galley praying when the crew are carrying out their duties. Its small enough to work in as it is. Then it would become a health and safety issue. Being a British plane UK health and safety rules would apply.
 
FlyingAY
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:03 pm

Come on, this guy could have been on his first flight ever - how could we know? And at least he asked before just wandering off to the galley. I would think, that the cabin personnel would have been exactly the right person to contact, and it would have just been polite for the FA to explain that the galley is not for passengers and that unfortunately they couldn't arrange a quiet place for the man.

I wonder if the person asking had been a local elderly woman instead - probably she could've stayed in the plane.

This is just a dangerous path - soon we'll see somebody kicked out because of asking security related questions or for a one bottle of water!
 
7LBAC111
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:04 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 11):

Actually you failed to state your reference was to anything other than UK Law. So if the point was missed it was due to your rather vague post, more than anything else.

And anyway, sorry, but H&S laws were not what got him kicked off the plane. That was gross overreaction (arguably justified in this climate nonetheless) by the crew.

Lets not confuse this issue.

7L
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EDICHC
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:08 pm

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 10):
Quoting OA260 (Reply 4):
is on a British airline and should respect local laws. The same way a Catholic or Hindu has no right to pray in a galley

Law has nothing to do with it. Common sense is all that prevails in this instance. And who was to say that this guy wasn't British anyway.....?

To an extent Law does enter into this matter. After all avaition law affords the Captain of an aircraft complete discretion to remove a passenger (or crew member for that matter) as he or she sees fit.

While to my mind the article was too generalised and did not carry enough information. I find it hard to believe that the man was removed from the flight simply for asking to pray. Did for example, the man in question go into the galley without permission and only asked cabin crew after they found him there? Did he at first perhaps refuse to take no for an answer? We don't know.
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7LBAC111
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:12 pm

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 14):
To an extent Law does enter into this matter. After all avaition law affords the Captain of an aircraft complete discretion to remove a passenger (or crew member for that matter) as he or she sees fit

I'll concede that. But thats not the law being referred to in previous postings. That was my argument.

7L
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OA260
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:14 pm

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 13):
Actually you failed to state your reference was to anything other than UK Law

Ok sorry if you didnt think I clarified it enough but in my view there were various issues including common sense as you and I stated.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 8):
I think it all comes down to compromise and common sense on both sides.

I still think he was trying to make a statement.
 
EDICHC
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:21 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 16):
I still think he was trying to make a statement.

I agree with you. And given current sensitivities after recent events, anyone displaying such a lack of common sense could lead crew to consider they may be capable of anything.
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7LBAC111
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:24 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 16):
I still think he was trying to make a statement.

I may (or may not) agree with you. Big grin . But that opens up a whole new barrel of cack that belongs in Non-Av.
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:39 pm

This was a completely over the top reaction from the captain. This man didn't just go to the back and pray, no, he did the correct thing and asked permission to pray. As others have said, he could have been an inexperienced flyer, who simply didn't know better. If the crew didn't want him to pray, they could simply have said no. Sending him off the plane, not for praying, but for asking permission to pray, was completely uncalled for.
 
EDICHC
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:47 pm

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 12):
Come on, this guy could have been on his first flight ever - how could we know? And at least he asked before just wandering off to the galley. I would think, that the cabin personnel would have been exactly the right person to contact, and it would have just been polite for the FA to explain that the galley is not for passengers and that unfortunately they couldn't arrange a quiet place for the man.

There was a facility for this man at NCL to pray in private, why he had to make an issue of it on board the aircaft cannot be justified.

Bear in mind the background of some of those involved in the events at GLA. Members of the Medical profession, a highly trusted sector of society who take an oath to ensure the well-being of others. If you can't trust them who can you trust? If this man wishes to blame anyone for his treatment on this occasion, he should look squarely at the extremeists among his own faith, who have caused everyone in the UK transport industry to be just a little bit jittery.

Perhaps what you fail to appreciate is that UK aviation is currently facing it's longest and most serious security issues ever. As someone who worked for a small UK carrier who operated services to BFS at the height of 'The Troubles' in Northern Ireland, I don't make that statement lightly. In my opinion this man was intent on making some kind of militant statement about his faith that was insensitive and inappropriate.
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Fly2CHC
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:49 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 7):
If I want to pray on planes, I usually pray while seated down

What happens about Qiblat though? Say you are on a flight from DOH to PVG, your seat will almost certainly be facing the complete opposite direction.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 14):
avaition law affords the Captain of an aircraft complete discretion to remove a passenger (or crew member for that matter) as he or she sees fit.

If this is the case, then the Captain and the airline should be willing and prepared to suffer the legal consequences for negligence, racism, and victimisation. If I was the passenger, I would be pursuing this to the fullest extent permissable by existing legislation. Would the same thing happen if you a crew member saw a Catholic signalling a cross, or a Jew reading the Torat?
 
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OA260
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:52 pm

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 18):
I may (or may not) agree with you. . But that opens up a whole new barrel of cack that belongs in Non-Av.

LOL..... Big grin
 
Scorpio
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:57 pm

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 20):
why he had to make an issue of it on board the aircaft cannot be justified.

How do you know he 'made an issue' about it? He simply asked for permission! If the crew had simply refused permission, that would have been the end of it! And yes, there was a facility at the airport. But he know that? Kicking him off the flight was unjustified. If they had refused permission, and he would then have made a fuss about it, that would have been a different situation. But that is not what happened: they kicked him off immediately, simply for asking permission to pray.

[Edited 2007-07-09 13:57:51]
 
7LBAC111
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:03 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 23):
How do you know he 'made an issue' about it? He simply asked for permission

Actually, if we are all going by the Sunday Star, nobody really knows the truth....

It is more likely (in my opinion) a mix between exploitive journalism, crew over reaction, and insensitivity/foolishness by the passenger. We could sit here all day and make arguments for each case, but what'd be the point....?

7L
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OHLHD
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:11 pm

My last time I travelled to Doha on QR I saw a man praying and it was a curiosity for the other passengers. Nobody made a fuss out of it.

Sure he could have waited until AGP. Maybe he wanted to make a statment too. Kicking him out of the aircraft was a bit overreacting on the other hand as QatarA340 pointed out you do not have to kneel down.

To have a fight you always need two.  Smile
 
EDICHC
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:22 pm

Quoting Fly2CHC (Reply 21):
If this is the case, then the Captain and the airline should be willing and prepared to suffer the legal consequences for negligence, racism, and victimisation.

Quite simply there would be no legal consequences. The captain of a commercial aircraft has absolute LEGAL authority to have removed from the aircraft anyone who he or she deems to be interfering with the safety or smooth operation of the aircraft from his or her perspective at the time. It is solely the captian's decision (not the airline's) and cannot be overruled.
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ltbewr
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:35 pm

With so many faiths with even more variances of customs, it can be difficult to accommodate everyone at all times under all circumstances especially on an aircraft at these hyper times for believers in Islam. It is unfortunate that this person was booted off the flight, but as noted in other posts, this person asked for an accomidation that may have been impractical and where he could have done an alternative prayer procedure or delayed his praying to a more appropiate time.
 
EDICHC
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:45 pm

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 25):
My last time I travelled to Doha on QR I saw a man praying and it was a curiosity for the other passengers. Nobody made a fuss out of it.

That was on a carrier based in an Islamic state, travelling to it's base. Hardly a suitable comparison to a departure on a UK aircraft, in the UK, just a week after attempted terrorist attacks in the same country by Islamic extremists.
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haddock0815
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:48 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 7):
If I want to pray on planes, I usually pray while seated down. We dont have to knell down if we can't do that... Praying is obligatory 5 times a day for all Muslims. But, the way the man shouldve prayed was sitting down and not making a scene in front of people. Or at least pray at home.

When Muslims travel, Islam allows them to shortren their praying and combine 2 prayings in to one shorterned one, so that the person does not have to pray as often. This is one of the blessings of Islam.

Maybe the airlines should train their personnels with such informations so they could tell him? Then he knows that they are well informed.
If he then insist to do it in the galley, at least everyone knows that he wants to make a statement.

haddock0815
 
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OA260
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:59 pm

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 25):
My last time I travelled to Doha on QR I saw a man praying and it was a curiosity for the other passengers. Nobody made a fuss out of it.

On my flight with IR to THR they had a prayer room onboard. But then again it is an Islamic airline so they cater for the majority. Do QR not have this?? I thought EK did but could be wrong.
 
starguy
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:07 pm

I think that if the story is as simple as the news story suggests, and the man was booted off and searched for simply asking to pray in the galley, then I think that it was a huge over-reaction and I feel terribly sorry for him. I think that using the attack in Scotland last week as an excuse for persecuting all muslims, is basically suggesting that all young muslim men are terrorists. Would they have reacted the same if a little old lady had asked the same?
 
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OA260
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:17 pm

Quoting StarGuy (Reply 31):
all muslims, is basically suggesting that all young muslim men are terrorists

Sign of the times unfortunately. It is of course wrong that people look at someone and think ''terrorist''. My Dad's side of the family are East Indians and when I have a tan i have been the only one pulled aside when I was travelling with a group of bottle white Irish mates. Do I scream discrimination or just go along with security persons wishes. Had all my bag emptied out and personal letters and diary scrolled though !!!! My Pakistani mate gets pulled over all the time . He just accepts it and doesn't bring attention to himself.
 
travellin'man
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:25 pm

Assuming that the story is essentially what was reported, I agree with all those who say that the crew over-reacted. I am not sure I grasp what some people mean by "common sense" and how that appears to justify his being booted off the plane. In a less hysterical world, the story should have been, man asks to pray in galley area, crew politely informs man that galley space is not for general passenger use, encourages him to pray in his seat, helps man make alternative arrangements within plane, if possible, if his seat is facing away from Mecca. That's it.

I also think that it is a recent phenomenon for crews, at least in the US, to be more firm about passengers not loitering the galley area. We have this gray area idea about it, that it's OK to wait back there for the toilet, ask for some water, join in the crew conversation, look out the window, and presto, a justifiably annoyed crew. Recently some airlines, such as United, have even begun to make announcements about it.
It is not enough to be rude; one must also be incorrect.
 
EDICHC
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:26 pm

Quoting StarGuy (Reply 31):
I think that if the story is as simple as the news story suggests, and the man was booted off and searched for simply asking to pray in the galley, then I think that it was a huge over-reaction and I feel terribly sorry for him. I think that using the attack in Scotland last week as an excuse for persecuting all muslims, is basically suggesting that all young muslim men are terrorists. Would they have reacted the same if a little old lady had asked the same?

I think there is far more to this story that the simplified case stated in the newspaper report, the passenger concerned may well have caused some form of disruption to warrant the Captain's decision. But keeping things in perspective there have been two failed (in terms of the intended loss of innocent lives) and if in the current climate such action turns out to be an overreaction this this passenger is no more a victim that all the thousands of passengers inconvenienced by the cancellations and delays of the previous weekend.
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FlyingAY
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:31 pm

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 20):
In my opinion this man was intent on making some kind of militant statement about his faith that was insensitive and inappropriate.

How long will it take until praying on your seat is considered as "some kind of militant statement"? Or would you consider it as a "militant statement" already?

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 26):
Quite simply there would be no legal consequences. The captain of a commercial aircraft has absolute LEGAL authority to have removed from the aircraft anyone who he or she deems to be interfering with the safety or smooth operation of the aircraft from his or her perspective at the time. It is solely the captian's decision (not the airline's) and cannot be overruled.

So, if the captain thinks that people who have a green t-shirt are interfering with the smooth operation of the aircraft and removes them from the plane, the decision was right? While I appreciate that the crew flying commercial airliners are highly skilled professionals, they are not above the law and also, they are human. I don't know the laws regarding discrimination in UK, but I am absolutely sure, that kicking someone off the plane solely because of their religion would be against the law here (not saying that religion was the only reason in this case - we don't know the details) - even if it was the decision of the captain and even if he would state that this was done in the interest of safety.
 
kanebear
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:32 pm

My attempting to board an SV flight with my wife wearing a miniskirt and bustier wouldn't be much different than this. She's only dressing as she's comfortable and as is PERFECTLY legal between CDG and FCO (which SV fly). Yet, there're some things you just *do not* do. That's one of 'em.

We'll never know the truth of the situation. Regardless, the pax is very guilty of a crucial lack of situational awareness. You don't yell fire in a theatre. You wouldn't walk through Gaza City wearing a jewish prayer shawl and yarmulke. Some people ARE just that clueless though, so you can't put it past rank stupidity.

If a simple request to pray resulted in him being kicked off the plane, that's an overreaction. I don't believe that's the full story. So many muslims live in Britain that if a captain or crew were to discriminate by throwing them off flights he'd be kicking them off all day every day.

IMO, people absolutely need to take more ownership of their own personal needs. If you need to pray at a certain time, don't choose then to travel. If you MUST travel during that time, delay your prayers. If you cannot delay your prayers, don't travel. One's faith is one's own responsibility. We shouldn't repress someone's expression of faith. Neither should anyone expect others to inconvenience themselves so that they may express their faith.

[Edited 2007-07-09 15:37:20]
 
EDICHC
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 36):
We'll never know the truth of the situation. Regardless, the pax is very guilty of a crucial lack of situational awareness. You don't yell fire in a theatre. You wouldn't walk through Gaza City wearing a jewish prayer shawl and yarmulke. Some people ARE just that clueless though, so you can't put it past rank stupidity.

Most sensible remark I have seen on this thread! Including my own!  Big grin

See my PM to you
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jacobin777
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:49 pm

Quoting ACEregular (Reply 9):
They did this in the galley however we did not leave him to his own devices.

.at least you didn't just straight out inform the captain....

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 12):
Come on, this guy could have been on his first flight ever - how could we know? And at least he asked before just wandering off to the galley. I would think, that the cabin personnel would have been exactly the right person to contact, and it would have just been polite for the FA to explain that the galley is not for passengers and that unfortunately they couldn't arrange a quiet place for the man.

 checkmark ...a simple explanation would have been satisfactory.....if he caused trouble after that then booting him out certainly could have been justified...

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 23):
Quoting EDICHC (Reply 20):
why he had to make an issue of it on board the aircaft cannot be justified.

How do you know he 'made an issue' about it? He simply asked for permission! If the crew had simply refused permission, that would have been the end of it! And yes, there was a facility at the airport. But he know that? Kicking him off the flight was unjustified. If they had refused permission, and he would then have made a fuss about it, that would have been a different situation. But that is not what happened: they kicked him off immediately, simply for asking permission to pray.

 checkmark 

Quoting OA260 (Reply 32):
My Pakistani mate gets pulled over all the time . He just accepts it and doesn't bring attention to himself.

...I would never accept it....its one thing to obey the law and rules, but one shouldn't be put down and humiliated for their descent or skin colour..

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 34):
and if in the current climate such action turns out to be an overreaction this this passenger is no more a victim that all the thousands of passengers inconvenienced by the cancellations and delays of the previous weekend.

..what? a flight cancellation affects everyone...not on particular pax..and as others have incessantly stated..maybe he didn't know about this....

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 36):
My attempting to board an SV flight with my wife wearing a miniskirt and bustier wouldn't be much different than this. She's only dressing as she's comfortable and as is PERFECTLY legal between CDG and FCO (which SV fly). Yet, there're some things you just *do not* do. That's one of 'em.

..they wouldn't boot you off the flight, but rather ask your wife to wear something more suitable...

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 36):
I don't believe that's the full story.

..so far that's the only thing which was reported....
"Up the Irons!"
 
starguy
Posts: 249
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:44 pm

RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:53 pm

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 36):
My attempting to board an SV flight with my wife wearing a miniskirt and bustier wouldn't be much different than this. She's only dressing as she's comfortable and as is PERFECTLY legal between CDG and FCO (which SV fly). Yet, there're some things you just *do not* do. That's one of 'em.

But neither of you would get thrown off the aircraft and security searched because of it.

I don't even understand why the crew member sought the the permission of the captain in the first place. If a Muslim, Jewish, Christian or whoever asked me if they could pray in the galley during boarding, I would let them but just explain that as soon as I had to secure the cabin for take-off, they would have to return to their seat regardless of what stage of pray they were at. To ask the Captain and get the man thrown off is totally unnecessary unless he is being aggressive.
 
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OA260
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:05 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 38):
...I would never accept it....its one thing to obey the law and rules, but one shouldn't be put down and humiliated for their descent or skin colour..

Jacobin777 , you obviously can give a personal insight into this being Pakistani but I think it is an issue that divides even people in the Muslim community. Your opinion is different than my Pakistani mate . If he got a second search he wouldnt say anything and neither would I . But I do think that asking to pray in a galley on a AGP flight which takes a couple of hours when there clearly is a place provided in NCL before hand is stretching it a bit. Dont you??? I could understand it if it was a long haul flight and the requirement to pray 5 times a day etc...
 
EDICHC
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:08 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 38):
..so far that's the only thing which was reported....

Quite! It is what has not been reported that I suspect may have led to this person being off-loaded.

What exactly is the source of this report? An unnamed newspaper source! Very reliable!

It is noticeable that the airline declined for legal reasons to comment other than to state it was the within the Captains rights to exclude the passenger from the flight. It is entirely possible that there may have been some kind of non-compliance by the passenger concerned that led to his off-loading that the 'unnamed source' found convenient not to disclose. In that situaution then the airline is quite correct to make no further comment at this time, as they may have good cause to consider legal proceedings against the newspaper.
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sevenair
Posts: 1564
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:18 pm

Great, I wonder how many hundreds of thousands of Pounds he will get in compensation.
 
kanebear
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:28 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 38):
..they wouldn't boot you off the flight, but rather ask your wife to wear something more suitable...

Which, if we were boarding, we wouldn't have access to as the bags would ostensibly be in the hold. Different circumstances, same end result. We'd be put off the flight. The root point to this isn't whether or not we'd be booted. It's that we wouldn't try it in the first place as we know better!

It's not a problem that he wanted to pray. It's either a problem with how he raised the issue or how the captain reacted. We have many avid aviation enthusiasts here who likely can find this out; does this particular captain have a history of kicking muslims off planes and/or discrimination? If not, until I see an eyewitness account from a named source I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to the captain and crew and assume the passenger made his request in such a way that alarmed the captain and/or crew. Whether or not he meant to do it is immaterial.

Again, situational awareness is a personal responsibility. Unless you were there or have other information, you absolutely do not know what transpired and can't make a judgment call as to whether or not removal from the flight was warranted.

[Edited 2007-07-09 16:38:02]
 
EDICHC
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:38 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 40):
you obviously can give a personal insight into this being Pakistani but I think it is an issue that divides even people in the Muslim community. Your opinion is different than my Pakistani mate .

I have a very good friend back in the UK who is both Pakistani and follows Islam. He has lived in the UK for nearly 30 years. He also holds an ATPL, regrettably he has been unable to work in his chosen career since the demise of his last aviation employer. Does he blame prospective employers for his several job rejections since? No he does not. In his words and I quote "It's thanks to the lunatic fringe that defame Islam from within that I will probably never get another job flying in this country". As long as incidents like last weekend continue this will be a fact of life. But this is getting away from the aviation scope of this forum.
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7LBAC111
Posts: 2427
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:17 am

RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting StarGuy (Reply 31):
I think that using the attack in Scotland last week as an excuse for persecuting all muslims,

Persecution is a strong term, but I get your reasoning.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 38):
My Pakistani mate gets pulled over all the time . He just accepts it and doesn't bring attention to himself.

...I would never accept it....its one thing to obey the law and rules, but one shouldn't be put down and humiliated for their descent or skin colour

I don't want to come across offensive, but why do you find being security searched humiliating? Isnt;t it a fact that the current risk to security is from people of a certain descent, and is it fair to assume you fall into this category? Of course the overwhelming majority of Muslims/Pakistanis/Arabs (call them what you like) are as distressed with this situation as the rest of us, but I don't see a way of airport security screeners doing things any differently.

People from Belfast to the UK, irrespective of their nationality, are STILL herded through portacabins under the watchful eye of Special Branch security officers, despite there being little or no threat to society from people from Northern Ireland. I feel stereotyped then, but not humiliated. It's part of making me feel safer when flying. I don't have to like it, but it's the way it is.

Due to minorities in our society we both have to endure this. It may not be right, but it's air travel today. Live with it, make it easier for yourself and it becomes easier for everyone else.

7L
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
boacvc10
Posts: 469
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting Fly2CHC (Reply 21):
What happens about Qiblat though? Say you are on a flight from DOH to PVG, your seat will almost certainly be facing the complete opposite direction.

Generally speaking, for those that feel they need to pray, if you are "travelling", you can pray in any direction you like.

BOACVC10
Up, up and Away!
 
EDICHC
Posts: 1545
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:38 pm

RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:29 am

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 35):
that kicking someone off the plane solely because of their religion

Who is making that claim? The unamed source?

Not all the facts have been represented in this tabloid newspaper story. Given the patchy report I am far more inclined to accept the decision of an experienced professional who for legal reasons has been advised by his employer not to discuss the matter as opposed to this unnamed source. I think someone is running to a hiiden agenda here and it sure aint the thomsonfly skipper.

C'mon folks get off the PC high horse and face reality here.
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travellin'man
Posts: 469
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RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:50 am

Almost every time that such an issue has come up on this forum, people have jumped to say that we don't have all the facts, maybe he did something to legitimately upset the crew, etc. etc.... and then it turns out that the crew just reacted stupidly. So, yes, reported in a tabloid, let's hear the whole story, but don;t hold your breath that it was anything other than racism and hysteria, which by the way, does nothing to ferret out true terrorists.
It is not enough to be rude; one must also be incorrect.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Muslim Booted Off Flight For Asking To Pray

Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:13 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 40):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 38):
...I would never accept it....its one thing to obey the law and rules, but one shouldn't be put down and humiliated for their descent or skin colour..

Jacobin777 , you obviously can give a personal insight into this being Pakistani but I think it is an issue that divides even people in the Muslim community. Your opinion is different than my Pakistani mate . If he got a second search he wouldnt say anything and neither would I . But I do think that asking to pray in a galley on a AGP flight which takes a couple of hours when there clearly is a place provided in NCL before hand is stretching it a bit. Dont you??? I could understand it if it was a long haul flight and the requirement to pray 5 times a day etc...

...you are correct OA260....your mate's decision and approach is different than mine and I certainly can respect that..I'm not saying that I would be causing a ruckus, as I never do that...but I think I have the right for a decent explanation and if my rights (as well as others of other faith/skin colour/descent/ect) are being taken away, then take some action...

I've had 2nd searches before, and I really don't have a problem with it at all..in fact, a few years ago, there was a "secondary line" with 12 people..and every single one of those 12 people were Asians (Indians/Pakistanis), yet I never complained...

...again, maybe the chap didn't know about places to pray at NCL...and as you know, one must read their prayers at prescribed times...

....also, again, if he indeed was causing problems and not being respectful of the F/A's, other pax,etc. then he certainly should have been removed from the flight...that would not be acceptable behaviour...

..personally, if its time for praying and there is someone sitting next to me, I politely and respectfully let the person know I'm offering a small prayer..I don't bother telling them what faith it is...only afterwards if they ask I let them know...

..also, while its important to read towards Mecca, one tries to make the best of a difficult situation, so even if one is flying in the opposite direction, one can still read their prayers, as its one's intention which is most important....

p.s.-amazing you remember/knew my descent... Smile

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 41):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 38):
..so far that's the only thing which was reported....

Quite! It is what has not been reported that I suspect may have led to this person being off-loaded.

...we can't read between the lines and start adding our own information...this is what has been reported and what we are going by..if the facts change certainly our discussions should reflect that...

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 43):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 38):
..they wouldn't boot you off the flight, but rather ask your wife to wear something more suitable...

Which, if we were boarding, we wouldn't have access to as the bags would ostensibly be in the hold. Different circumstances, same end result. We'd be put off the flight. The root point to this isn't whether or not we'd be booted. It's that we wouldn't try it in the first place as we know better!

...many carriers will offer something or even go to the point of buying something for the pax....have heard of a few instances such as those....

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 43):
It's not a problem that he wanted to pray. It's either a problem with how he raised the issue or how the captain reacted.

...which we don't know..you are making assumptions...

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 45):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 38):
My Pakistani mate gets pulled over all the time . He just accepts it and doesn't bring attention to himself.

...I would never accept it....its one thing to obey the law and rules, but one shouldn't be put down and humiliated for their descent or skin colour

I don't want to come across offensive, but why do you find being security searched humiliating?

...nothing wrong with being searched again...but the fact a prima facie he was removed from the plane just for a request of wanting to pray before the flight....that is all we know so far, everything else would be conjecture...

Quoting Travellin'man (Reply 48):
Almost every time that such an issue has come up on this forum, people have jumped to say that we don't have all the facts, maybe

....see above...
"Up the Irons!"

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