LAXintl
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Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:57 am

They fear big brother to the north.

Quote:
Mexico Lacks Fleet, Market For Open Skies With U.S.
07/09/2007

Opening Mexico's skies to the U.S. would mean burying the country's commercial aviation industry, notwithstanding its new, well-heeled low-cost carriers, according to Jesus Ramirez Stabros, former airline pilot and now federal legislator.

Mexico's lack of strong carriers able to compete with those of the U.S. has led aviation entrepreneurs, sector labor unions and lawmakers to firmly oppose an open-skies agreement with their neighbor to the north.

This is happening at a time when Mexico's legacy airlines are trying to cut costs by restructuring, a move they initiated before the recent entry into the market of half a dozen aggressive LCCs.

Mexicana's CEO Emilio Romano says that, before negotiating open skies with the U.S., this concept should be clearly spelled out because it is implemented differently in each region of the world. A balanced plan should be sought to ensure a fairer and more equilateral commercial relationship between the two countries.

For Romano, it is also essential that operations be subject to growth and clearly reject the use of airfares for predatory practices, Mexicans could not compete in such an environment, Romano says.

Full story (subscription required)
http://www.aviationweek.com/publicat...2C+Market+For+Open+Skies+With+U.S.
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ikramerica
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:02 am

If it's the idea of USA carriers running domestic mexico flights, I'm against that too. But if it's just carriers running unlimited international flights, that's different. There are so many unconnected dots right now between the nations due to the current situation, and it can only help the mexican economy to connect those dots, far more than the USA economy, frankly.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:16 am

Last week the foreign ministers of Canada, US and Mexico meet in Washington. One of the things the US pushed was further liberalisation of air-service between Mexico and the US.

Indeed there are many dozens of city pair combinations not currently served while many current markets still have capacity restrictions on the number carriers.

Mexico obviously feels its airlines would get run over if the markets between the countries were opened further.

While there might indeed be pressure on Mexican airlines to become more efficient or perish eventually, Mexico as a whole could stand to benefit greatly as more links are established between the nations which ultimately expands commercial and tourism ties bringing yet more dollars into the Mexican economy.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
juventus
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:22 am

I think the Mexican government will go forward with the 'North American Open Skies Treaty' to attrack tourism, but Aeromexico and Mexicana will stand 100% against it, and understandbly so. As it is AM and MX are facing much competition at home with all the start-ups, and on the US-Mexico routes with the US airlines. I can't even imagine if all the US airlines were allowed to fly any route they wanted, as many times as they wanted. At present Mexicana would be able to fend off the US airlines, but I'm not sure about AM.

Not good for the Mexican airlines, great for Mexican Tourism.....
 
KLM685
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:22 am

Of course they oppose, it's suicide! You can't compare the 2 legacy airlines in Mexico with the 5 big airlines in the US.
I believe we're definately not ready for an open skies agreement.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
But if it's just carriers running unlimited international flights, that's different.

Well I remember when AA sent the A300 to MEX from MIA against the A320 MX sends to MIA. Unfair of course, but AA could do it. Now imagine an Open Skies...

Quoting Juventus (Reply 3):
but Aeromexico and Mexicana will stand 100% against it,

Of course, they have tons to loose if they don't do it the right way. I think an Open Skies would be good in a future as we're two countries with an amazing amount of flights between each other. Just don't think that right now is the right time to do it. MX and AM need to solve things up before going against the giants.
KLM- The Best Airline in the World!
 
oakjam
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:34 am

If there were an open skies treaty; I can see a couple of airlines jumping on the OAK/SFO/SJC-GDL if lower fares that what MX already offers. Although it's a good idea, American legacy carriers would benefit the most. The only sad part is that Mexicana and Aeromexico would suffer. Although MX and AM offer superior service on Int'l flights to Mexico than a hand full of American carriers. American carriers on coach would offer pretzels. Sad to see that service will be sacrificed.
 
juventus
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:46 am

Quoting KLM685 (Reply 4):
Well I remember when AA sent the A300 to MEX from MIA against the A320 MX sends to MIA. Unfair of course, but AA could do it. Now imagine an Open Skies...

Right, imagine UA, CO, AA, DL flying several times between MIA, JFK, ORD and LAX to MEX, SJD and CUN. AM and MX loosing market within Mexico, where would they go????
 
commavia
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:48 am

Quoting KLM685 (Reply 4):
Well I remember when AA sent the A300 to MEX from MIA against the A320 MX sends to MIA. Unfair of course, but AA could do it.

I fail to understand how that is, in any way, "unfair." Could you please explain your reasoning?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:49 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):

Indeed there are many dozens of city pair combinations not currently served while many current markets still have capacity restrictions on the number carriers.

There aren't that many city pairs outside of California that would benefit from increased liberalization, and even there, recent changes to the bilateral have helped a lot.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
Mexico obviously feels its airlines would get run over if the markets between the countries were opened further.

I'm not sure why Mexico believes this. American carriers own the resort traffic (PVR, CUN, etc.) currently, and I can't think of too many MEX or GDL routes that more than 2 or 3 American carriers could or would feasibly serve. Of course, it may just be an example of the standard nationalistic protectionism that someone is preaching (rightly or wrongly) in most countries around the world.

Quoting KLM685 (Reply 4):
Well I remember when AA sent the A300 to MEX from MIA against the A320 MX sends to MIA. Unfair of course, but AA could do it. Now imagine an Open Skies...

How does open skies affect AA' s ability to fly widebodies to Mexico?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
JRDC930
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:01 pm

I dont understand how unless U.S. airlines reduce prices to almost nothing, how they could compete with Mexican carriers, U.S. carriers service are crap, even the LCCs in Mexico make the legacies in the U.S. look like crap. Why would any one fly on U.S. carrier over a mexican one. Yeah they have larger fleets, but prices are better and service better on Mexican airlines. Its probably best for the time being for no open skies. Id hate U.S. carriers to ruin the experience of flight in yet another nation with crap service and price gouging...
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:03 pm

Quoting Oakjam (Reply 6):
If there were an open skies treaty; I can see a couple of airlines jumping on the OAK/SFO/SJC-GDL if lower fares that what MX already offers. Although it's a good idea, American legacy carriers would benefit the most.

The interesting thing is that United Airlines has very limited service from its San Francisco hub to Mexico. Most importantly the Bay Area has no nonstop service by a US airline to the markets of:

Morelia > 642,314 Population
Monterrey > 3,664,334 Population
Culiacan > 793,730 Population
Guadalajara > 4,095,853 Population
Puebla > 2,109,000 Population
Hermosillo > 701,838 Population

It is a rather glaring hole that United Airlines could fill with single flights on each route, they would not even have to be run daily.

Quoting Oakjam (Reply 6):
Although MX and AM offer superior service on Int'l flights to Mexico than a hand full of American carriers. American carriers on coach would offer pretzels.

This is a huge difference between the US and Mexican airlines. The service is not matched. The US airlines roll any old crewmember onto the flight. Stock some liqueur, and snacks and the plane is off. To the opposite end where you have the likes of AM, and MX. Both have very professional crews, stellar grooming guidelines, great meals, and very well maintained fleets. Perhaps this is why we dont see the US airlines serve Mexican business markets from more than one or two cities in the US..

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
juventus
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:12 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
Mexico obviously feels its airlines would get run over if the markets between the countries were opened further



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
I'm not sure why Mexico believes this.

if you are not sure why Mexico believes this, wait until the treaty is signed, then you'll see. This thing can bring serious consequences for AM and MX. I would like to reiterate that the Mexican governement is not against this, but the Mexican airlines will be.
 
drgmobile
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:46 pm

Right, imagine UA, CO, AA, DL flying several times between MIA, JFK, ORD and LAX to MEX, SJD and CUN. AM and MX loosing market within Mexico, where would they go????

Right, it is just like how the Canadian airlines got crucified in the trans-border market after near-Open Skies in the mid 1990s......oh wait. The dominant Canadian carrier didn't get crucified -- it did quite well and has the biggest marketshare in the trans-border market despite all the U.S. competitors and the relative size of Canada's home market.

First of all, understand what you are talking about. Open Skies is a fairly well defined term. It doesn't include domestic service, known as cabotage. The biggest impact U.S. style Open Skies would have with Mexico would be to open more city pairs to service since there currently are restrictions on the number of carriers that can operate each. In theory you could all of a sudden get a huge increase in competition, yes, but this isn't likely in practice: There are just so many carriers that are going to be interested in, say Denver-Acapulco, or Atlanta-Mazatlan.

Open Skies also would open up fifth freedoms --- the right for a U.S. carrier to pick up passengers in Mexico and take them on to a third country. It would do the same for Mexican carriers (ie MEX-MIA-MAD, anybody?). In practice though, fifth freedoms are some of the most overrated underused traffic rights out there. They just don't make a lot of financial sense for most airlines in most circumstances.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:08 am

In the end the people who really get screwed are the low-/middle- income Mexican migrant workers in the U.S. who would have been able to take more flights back home. Sometimes I wonder if protectionist governments care about their local populace or the bottom line of some industrial czars.

-A.
Live, and let live.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:11 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 11):
Perhaps this is why we dont see the US airlines serve Mexican business markets from more than one or two cities in the US..

??? This is the whole point! It's not due to poor service, it's because we CAN'T see these flights due to the current treaty.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
AeroMexico777
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
They fear big brother to the north.



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
hile there might indeed be pressure on Mexican airlines to become more efficient or perish eventually

HI!
Well... I personally think that the first commentary went (literally) over the border...
The second one for me has two sides. One is the positive side: Mexican airliners will have to be less corrupt and more efficient talking about bussines decisions.
The other side: Well, More efficient? I think that, in my personal experience and reading opinions here, Mexican airlines offer a more efficient passenger-related product. They are more friendly towards us: The costumers.

I think that if the open skies treaty is signed, U S Carriers will take advantage of their HUGE world network for feeding their service in/out Mexico, thus killing any oportunities of the Mexican carriers (at least) in their biggest international market (USA)

My two cents,
Regards, AeroMexico777
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FLYGUY767
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:57 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 16):
??? This is the whole point! It's not due to poor service, it's because we CAN'T see these flights due to the current treaty.

I am sorry, I may have missed something...

I understood the treaty to read no more than 2 US airlines per route to Mexico..

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
drgmobile
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:05 am

I think that if the open skies treaty is signed, U S Carriers will take advantage of their HUGE world network for feeding their service in/out Mexico, thus killing any opportunities of the Mexican carriers (at least) in their biggest international market (USA)

And yet the international experience -- most notably for comparisons purpose the Canada-U.S. experience, does not back this up.
 
slider
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:13 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
Mexico obviously feels its airlines would get run over if the markets between the countries were opened further.

The irony of Mexico being afraid of being run over due to "opening" anything is too good to pass up.

Pot? This is the kettle!
 
captaink
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 10):
but prices are better and service better on Mexican airlines.

I fly to the US very often from Mexico. I have never gotten a cheaper flight on a Mexican Carrier. The service is better no doubt on the Mexican Carriers, but AM and MX charge more than the American Carriers except UA ex MEX, or sometimes CO ex GDL. I fly to NY. If I fly out of GDL, AA is always the cheapest. If I fly out of MEX, US is always the cheapest.
There is something special about planes....
 
LH498
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:42 am

An Open-skies-agreement between Mexico and the US is not a matter of if, but rather a matter of when.
The market is demanding more frequencies and not just for tourism, it's goes well beyond.

Mexican airlines must solve their problems well and soon, otherwise, well...
I know my countrymen, if they have to face a great challenge, they can do it, mostly better than expected; they just have to believe they can...and do something about it, of course.

The fear (understandable) towards such a treaty, reminds me of all the sayings against NAFTA some years back.
Mexico has been doing quit good since(actually should be doing better).

Mexican airlines have many strengths(e.g. service) and can develop many more, specially both AM and MX with their alliances.
My wild idea: They can take advantage of such an agreement by not only focusing on the Mexico-USA market, but rather connecting Latin America with the US. Specially to cities with large Latino communities, where the large US-airlines are not present.

Perhaps this agreement is what Mexican aviation needs to become the industry Mexico demands.

Just my opinion
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:45 am

Quoting AeroMexico777 (Reply 17):
I think that if the open skies treaty is signed, U S Carriers will take advantage of their HUGE world network for feeding their service in/out Mexico, thus killing any oportunities of the Mexican carriers (at least) in their biggest international market (USA)

= Does empirical analysis support your claims?

-A.
Live, and let live.
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting LH498 (Reply 22):
My wild idea: They can take advantage of such an agreement by not only focusing on the Mexico-USA market, but rather connecting Latin America with the US. Specially to cities with large Latino communities, where the large US-airlines are not present

Case in point:

Sacramento
Fresno
Bakersfield
San Jose
Ontario
Tucson

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
LAXintl
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:15 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 18):
I understood the treaty to read no more than 2 US airlines per route to Mexico..

A revision to the US-Mexico air service agreement was reached in late 2004 which liberalised cargo and charter operations in addition to the ability to designate a 3rd carrier on several routes. In addition some US metro areas were split up allow for more airport designations.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
aa61hvy
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:49 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 24):
Sacramento
Fresno
Bakersfield
San Jose
Ontario
Tucson

Mesa
Go big or go home
 
sllevin
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:31 am

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 14):
Open Skies also would open up fifth freedoms --- the right for a U.S. carrier to pick up passengers in Mexico and take them on to a third country

I don't believe that's fifth freedom (the ability to pick up passengers in one country and take them to another via your "home" country); and I believe they have that right today.

Fifth freedom would be MIA-MEX-MAD, but I don't think it's something the US carriers are all that interested in right now, nor is it (or cabotage) on the table; just open skies for US-Mexico flights.

Steve
 
drgmobile
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:37 am

I don't believe that's fifth freedom (the ability to pick up passengers in one country and take them to another via your "home" country); and I believe they have that right today.

Fifth freedom would be MIA-MEX-MAD, but I don't think it's something the US carriers are all that interested in right now, nor is it (or cabotage) on the table; just open skies for US-Mexico flights.


I didn't describe picking up passengers in one country and bringing them to another via your home country. My description of fifths was accurate.

What you described in the first of the two paragraphs above is sixth freedoms. Whether a particular U.S. carrier is interested in it for Mexico, fifth freedoms are part of a classic Open Skies agreement, so yes, the U.S. seeks fifths when it negotiates Open Skies.
 
2travel2know
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:52 am

Under a Mexico - U.S.A. Open skies treaty, I wouldn't see Mexican airlines flying to Europe or Asia via an U.S. airport anytime soon. The U.S. visa requirement would kill any such route, unless it would be a flight flown to add seats to profitable U.S. - Europe/Asia routes and not depending on Mexico - Europe/Asia traffic.
However, under the same Openskies scenario, I wouldn't doubt that some U.S. Airlines could use Mexican airports (read specially MEX) as stopover on flights to Latinamerica.
These examples of U.S. - Mexican 5th rights come to mind:
AM MEX-MIA-MAD, PanAm IAH-MEX-GUA and more recently UA SFO-MEX-SJO.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:55 am

Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 26):
Mesa

Mexicana already serves Sacramento to Mexico
Aero Mexico has filed to serve Sacramento to Mexico
Frontier flies Sacramento to Mexico

Mesa is not the answer...

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
FATFlyer
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 26):
Mesa

???? I'm not sure what you mean here. That Mesa would be the only one to fly from those cities to Mexico? Or that Mesa currently flies to Mexico from those cities?

FAT, BFL, SMF and SJC currently see Mexicana mainline flights to GDL.

SJC also has service on MX A320s non-stop to MLM.

ONT sees AeroMexico mainline to GDL.

SMF and SJC also see Frontier to Cabo.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
juventus
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:52 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 23):
A revision to the US-Mexico air service agreement was reached in late 2004 which liberalised cargo and charter operations in addition to the ability to designate a 3rd carrier on several routes.

Correct, mainly routes out of MEX and CUN.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:48 pm

Quoting Juventus (Reply 11):
if you are not sure why Mexico believes this, wait until the treaty is signed, then you'll see. This thing can bring serious consequences for AM and MX.

American carriers can compete against AM and MX as much as they'd like to in 95+ percent of markets right now. Can you name more than 3 routes that would feasibly be served by more than the currently-permitted number of U.S. flag carriers?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:48 pm

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 28):


Mesa is not the answer...

to ANYTHING.
Next up: STL-OAK-RNO-LAS-ICT-STL
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:55 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 31):
Can you name more than 3 routes that would feasibly be served by more than the currently-permitted number of U.S. flag carriers?

LAX-MEX
LAX-GDL
LAX-CUN

ORD-MEX

JFK-CUN

DEN-CUN
DEN-SJD
DEN-PVR

SFO-SJD
SFO-PVR

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
sllevin
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:39 am

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 26):
What you described in the first of the two paragraphs above is sixth freedoms. Whether a particular U.S. carrier is interested in it for Mexico, fifth freedoms are part of a classic Open Skies agreement, so yes, the U.S. seeks fifths when it negotiates Open Skies.

I'm afraid I'd have to disagree. Open Skies typically means that two countries have agreed not to regulate flights between them (i.e., no governmental approval required to start new service).

Your example, a Mexican carrier flying MEX-MIA-MAD and picking up passengers for the MIA-MAD sector -- is not part of open skies but is, rather, a fifth freedom allowance. While US-Mexico Open Skies *could* include full fifth freedom rights, it's certainly not required to have an agreement termed "open skies."

You can also have fifth freedom without open skies; NW in Japan being an example.

Steve
 
drgmobile
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:20 am

Your example, a Mexican carrier flying MEX-MIA-MAD and picking up passengers for the MIA-MAD sector -- is not part of open skies but is, rather, a fifth freedom allowance. While US-Mexico Open Skies *could* include full fifth freedom rights, it's certainly not required to have an agreement termed "open skies."

You can also have fifth freedom without open skies; NW in Japan being an example.


Yes, you can have fifth freedoms without Open Skies, but Open Skies agreements absolutely provide fifth and sixth freedoms by standard practice, while expressly prohibiting cabotage. They're not a free for all.

For example, the recent Open Skies agreement between Canada and U.S. is considered a true Open Skies agreement because it removes a lot of restrictions remaining after the 1995 agreement, most notably fifths.

This isn't a theoretical concept. The model legal Open Skies text is posted on the DOS Web site for the world to see:

http://www.state.gov/e/eeb/rls/othr/19514.htm

The relevant texts on traffic rights are referenced below:



Article 2

Grant of Rights

1. Each Party grants to the other Party the following rights for the conduct of international air transportation by the airlines of the other Party:

1. he right to fly across its territory without landing;
2. the right to make stops in its territory for non-traffic purposes; and
3. the rights otherwise specified in this Agreement.

2. Nothing in this Article shall be deemed to confer on the airline or airlines of one Party the rights to take on board, in the territory of the other Party, passengers, their baggage, cargo, or mail carried for compensation and destined for another point in the territory of that other Party.



ANNEX I

Scheduled Air Transportation

Section 1

Routes

Airlines of each Party designated under this Annex shall, in accordance with the terms of their designation, be entitled to perform scheduled international air transportation between points on the following routes:

A. Routes for the airline or airlines designated by the Government of the United States:

1. From points behind the United States via the United States and intermediate points to a point or points in [country] and beyond.
2. [ For all-cargo service or services, between [country] and any point or points.]

B. Routes for the airline or airlines designated by the Government of [country]:

1. From points behind [country] via [country] and intermediate points to a point or points in the United States and beyond.
2. [For all-cargo service or services, between the United States and any point or points.]

Section 2

Operational Flexibility

Each designated airline may, on any or all flights and at its option:

1. operate flights in either or both directions;

2. combine different flight numbers within one aircraft operation;

3. serve behind, intermediate, and beyond points and points in the territories of the Parties on the routes in any combination and in any order;

4. omit stops at any point or points;

5. transfer traffic from any of its aircraft to any of its other aircraft at any point on the routes; and

6. serve points behind any point in its territory with or without change of aircraft or flight number and may hold out and advertise such services to the public as through services;

without directional or geographic limitation and without loss of any right to carry traffic otherwise permissible under this Agreement; provided that, [with the exception of all-cargo services,] the service serves a point in the territory of the Party designating the airline.
 
juventus
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RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 35):
Your example, a Mexican carrier flying MEX-MIA-MAD and picking up passengers for the MIA-MAD sector -- is not part of open skies but is, rather, a fifth freedom allowance

I agree with you. Big difference between 5th freedom rights and Opens Skies. However, they can be easily confused. I think it was the LA Times where I read an article that said something about how in a couple of years, AeroMexico could be flying passengers from Los Angeles to Toronto, and AC from NY to Paris. Wouldn't these two 'sample-flights' begin their journeys in Mexico and Canada respectibly??? They would fall under the Open Skies Umbrella, but very much resemble fifth freedom rights....
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11376
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:09 pm

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 33):
ORD-MEX

Who besides AA and UA?

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 33):
DEN-CUN
DEN-SJD
DEN-PVR

Who besides UA or F9?

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 33):
LAX-MEX
LAX-GDL

Who besides AA, UA, and DL?

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 33):
SFO-SJD
SFO-PVR

Who besides UA?

You're overplaying your hand...
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
drgmobile
Posts: 709
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:06 am

RE: Mexico Not Ready For Open Skies With U.S

Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:27 pm

I agree with you. Big difference between 5th freedom rights and Opens Skies. However, they can be easily confused. I think it was the LA Times where I read an article that said something about how in a couple of years, AeroMexico could be flying passengers from Los Angeles to Toronto, and AC from NY to Paris. Wouldn't these two 'sample-flights' begin their journeys in Mexico and Canada respectibly??? They would fall under the Open Skies Umbrella, but very much resemble fifth freedom rights....

You are mixing up concepts. Bilateral agreements, including ones established under the Open Skies model, set out the various factors that define the kind of service air carriers of two particular countries can operate between them and beyond. One of the elements in this is what freedoms they can operate. Open Skies agreements are particular kind of bilateral agreement featuring fairly liberal rules on freedoms, i.e. as I outlined in the earlier post in which I provided.

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