B6ramprat
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Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:48 am

Okay this not a hater e mail about Delta so lets get that out on the table. My question is Does it make sense to spend all this money on changing the livery of Deltas planes. There are so many liveries of them and to be honest, they are all good. Why not save your money and spend it else where? God knows it could be used for better use. What was wrong with what there planes looked like? Of course now they gotta change all those Song planes but for the mainline fleet and regional why the need? Its gotta cost bucks to paint these planes and well Delta doesn't really seem to have the money right now. I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks

B6ramprat
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ANITIX87
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:55 am

Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
My question is Does it make sense to spend all this money on changing the livery of Deltas planes.

Here's your answer...

Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
There are so many liveries of them

Airlines do constant maintenance and planes get painted quite regularly. The reason we see so many Delta planes in old liveries is because they are NOT spending more money. They are painting the planes whenever they happen to be in for checks. The new livery may actually be cheaper than the old one, depending on decals, paint amounts, colors, whatever. So, obviously, Delta would only have changed their livery so significantly if it went along with the re-branding in a positive way, which, apprently, it did.

Now, whether or not it was worth it to change to such a terrible livery is another question altogether.

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dl767captain
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:56 am

they have to be painted anyways so painting on a new livery doesn't necessarily cost more money than painting on an existing livery.
 
deltagator
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:02 am

This has been discussed ad naseum but hey, to each their own. You're going to get some people hating it and some people loving with very little in between.

Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
My question is Does it make sense to spend all this money on changing the livery of Deltas planes.

So many people just don't seem to understand these three simple points...

1 - Planes have to be repainted at some point. They aren't all in AA bare steel and decals.
2 - Coming out of bankruptcy is a good time to emphasize your brand.
3 - The older liveries had ties to the crappy leadership that put them into the position to enter bankruptcy in trhe first place. Why not get rid of that demon? I know it's a small thing but it does wonders for corporate morale.

Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
There are so many liveries of them,

RIght now there are 3. The new one on a few planes, Wavy Gravy on a lot of planes, and a few left with the Ron Allen colors. I'm not really counting Song since those are all going to get converted soon along with the Ron Allen ones. They are working on getting to a single brand. There have been mistakes in the past and they are working to correct them with this change.

Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
Why not save your money and spend it else where?

Repeat after me...planes have to be painted anyways.  Wink

Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
What was wrong with what there planes looked like?

Again, ties to the old regime (simmer down with the comments about Grinstein being that regime) that need to be gone.

Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
Its gotta cost bucks to paint these planes and well Delta doesn't really seem to have the money right now.

One more time, and this time with feeling...planes need to be painted anyways.  Wink

The money to paint the planes is the cost of doing business. It has to be budgeted for. Did you ask the same question when UA came out of bankruptcy and brought out the new livery? Did you ask the same question when CO rebranded after their bankruptcies in the 80s?
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
flytuitravel
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:16 am

For all you saying that planes get repainted during a check, thats not necessarily true - planes come in and out of the hangers at BY without paying a visit to MST for repaint. It would be waaaayyy too expensive for airlines to repaint their planes every year!
I agree that it would be more economical for DL to just maybe add new decals on the existing paint scheme and only repaint the ones in the late-90s widget livery...


FLYTUITRAVEL.
 
deltagator
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:19 am

Quoting FlyTUITravel (Reply 4):
For all you saying that planes get repainted during a check, thats not necessarily true - planes come in and out of the hangers at BY without paying a visit to MST for repaint. It would be waaaayyy too expensive for airlines to repaint their planes every year!

We understand that. We mean heavy checks that do not happen every year when the plane is getting torn apart anyways and will be out of commission for some time.
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flytuitravel
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 5):

We understand that. We mean heavy checks that do not happen every year when the plane is getting torn apart anyways and will be out of commission for some time.

Sorry about that then - my mistake!  Wink


FLYTUITRAVEL.
 
Mir
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:26 am

The changing of liveries makes sense. What they changed it to, on the other hand....  no 

-Mir
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pplsxprs75
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:35 am

I am inclined to agree with DeltaGator here. Changing the livery of the entire fleet could be a way show a "Fresh" start and a renewal of the airline.

Of topic, I can't stand the new livery.  boggled 
 
BOSSAN
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:50 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 3):
They aren't all in AA bare steel and decals.

Whoa, when did AA get steel airplanes?  Smile

 
rafflesking
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:51 am

I thought I recall reading it would be a cost savings because DL cut the number of colors they use in the tail scheme by half.
 
deltagator
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting FlyTUITravel (Reply 6):
Sorry about that then - my mistake!

No problem. And I said we but I probably should have said I instead. I can't speak for the other guys.

Quoting BOSSAN (Reply 9):
Whoa, when did AA get steel airplanes?

Yeah, I know. Metal vs. Steel. My bad. I'm still waiting to see a natural wood finish with a nice topcoat of glossy poly.  Wink

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
The changing of liveries makes sense. What they changed it to, on the other hand....

The change makes sense more than any of the other changes from the original Widget. I on the other hand am somewhat indifferent on the tail. I see the widget and even can take a little bit of something that looks like a paper airplane.

Where they lose me is the crappy ass font they picked to spell Delta with at the front. At least tilt it like the old livery for a small bit of flair and subconscious meaning of speed.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
deltairlines
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:44 am

Quoting RafflesKing (Reply 10):
I thought I recall reading it would be a cost savings because DL cut the number of colors they use in the tail scheme by half.

Also it helps in the simplification. With the rudder (which is very weight-sensitive), the wavy-gravy livery was (from what I've heard, FWIW) very difficult along these lines. With the new paint, it's much simpler and the weight-distribution of the paint is a lot easier.
 
notdownnlocked
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:44 am

The official font name for the widget is catawompus the shark widget. Hopefully it will changed again at the beginning of the next ad agency fad. Just look at the new MX/JL/UA and others with the oversized logos. It's just a passing fad.
 
D L X
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:45 am

Bring back Deltaflot!!

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 2):
they have to be painted anyways so painting on a new livery doesn't necessarily cost more money than painting on an existing livery.

Then why so many planes still flying in the livery before last? Those paintjobs must be nearing 10 years old. I don't think the whole plane gets painted.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 5):
We understand that. We mean heavy checks that do not happen every year when the plane is getting torn apart anyways and will be out of commission for some time.

Same question, really. Unless DL plans to phase in the new livery only at the D checks (in which case there will be 3 different Delta liveries running around, each blander than the one before it), this is just a major expense at a time when DL doesn't need to be spending money on these things. Delta just exited bankruptcy, and it was a pricey coming-out party at that. Just ask US Airways about how easy it is to slip back into bankruptcy when poor decisions are made after exiting the first time. Good luck to them, but I sure hope DL is keeping its nose clean.
 
ord
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:42 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
this is just a major expense at a time when DL doesn't need to be spending money on these things.

I couldn't disagree more. Delta, like every other company, works with various budgets. One of those is the marketing budget. The marketing budget has funds allocated for spending on projects deemed worthy by the marketing director (Tim Mapes). Delta has determined that the best way to spend the marketing dollars is to rebrand the airline coinciding with the emergence from bankruptcy. If Delta had chosen not to rebrand, it still would have needed to spend the marketing money on things like a new advertising campaign, etc. All Delta did was include other elements in order to have a cohesive new look (airport signage, baggage name tags, ticket jackets, etc.). The actually paint job on the plane is just one part of the overall program. It would look odd to have all-new branding with planes that don't "match" the new look.

Plus, the repainting is not being rushed (only three mainline planes have been painted in 2-1/2 months). And it is cheaper to implement than the previous paint scheme because it uses fewer colors.

As mentioned in other posts, morale is also a big part of the new scheme. From what I have read (I am not a Delta employee), Deltaflot was hated by many because a.) it was associated with Leo Mullin and the worst few years in Delta's history and b.) it lost touch with the widget. I think Delta did a remarkable job with the new livery and rebranding.

As for US Airways, I don't believe they changed in bankruptcy anywhere near the extent that Delta did. Delta re-did their entire business model with a dramatic shift toward international flying, similar to the successful changes Continental went through. US Airways made no such change to their business model.
 
BOSSAN
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:13 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 11):
I'm still waiting to see a natural wood finish with a nice topcoat of glossy poly.

That we can do!  thumbsup 

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PExDCA
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:51 am

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 2):
they have to be painted anyways so painting on a new livery doesn't necessarily cost more money than painting on an existing livery.



Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 3):
Repeat after me...planes have to be painted anyways.



Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 3):
One more time, and this time with feeling...planes need to be painted anyways.

It is not as simple as just painting planes.

How about...
- the airport signage at every ticket counter, gate and hangar facility?
- the updates to all the website info?
- all the stationery, business cards, ticket jackets?
- all the seatback safety cards and inflight videos?
- plus, I know that they paid handsomely to have the new logo/livery professionally designed and consumer tested.

These were not all "necessary" expenses at this point in time and to employees that are hungry to have financial compensation and benefits sacrifices repaid, forgoing this expense MIGHT have been viewed (by those employees) as a gesture of goodwill.
"A single twig breaks, but the bundle of twigs is strong." - Tecumseh
 
N160LH
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:54 am

Someone check me on this...

But, I have heard that the new DL livery is actually cheaper to paint than the Deltaflot Livery... The reason is that the new paint job only requires three different color... where the Deltaflot livery required 10 or 11 different colors... Fewer colors... equals less inventory needed at the paint shop...

-0LH
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dl757md
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:27 am

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 1):
They are painting the planes whenever they happen to be in for checks.

No, we aren't. Delta hasn't scheduled paint visits with HMVs in the 16 years I've been with them. I've worked in the paint shop and in general our planes are painted on condition. Generally the ones with the worst condition paint get painted first. Marketing can override that with their needs and scheduling also can affect when a plane gets painted.

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
Then why so many planes still flying in the livery before last? Those paintjobs must be nearing 10 years old. I don't think the whole plane gets painted.

The info I have which was last updated in January,says the oldest paint job we have is the 757 ship 616 which was last painted Sept. 17,1998. An even dozen aircraft were last painted last decade which leaves 428 aircraft with a paint job less than 8 years old. Additionally as of January we only had 27 planes in the Ron Allen livery.

At Delta sometimes the whole plane gets painted other times not. It depends on the overall condition and other factors.

DL757Md
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Dalmd88
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:41 am

DL757md is very correct about the paint policy at DL. As for the cost savings, it isn't the number of different paints. The wavy tail only had a couple of shades of each of the colors. The big savings is the time. The wavy tail was all done freehand and took 24 hours to do. In comparison the Ron Allen tail only took 6 hours. I'll bet the new tail only takes about six also.
 
deltagator
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:12 pm

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 17):
It is not as simple as just painting planes.

How about...
- the airport signage at every ticket counter, gate and hangar facility?
- the updates to all the website info?
- all the stationery, business cards, ticket jackets?
- all the seatback safety cards and inflight videos?
- plus, I know that they paid handsomely to have the new logo/livery professionally designed and consumer tested.

These were not all "necessary" expenses at this point in time and to employees that are hungry to have financial compensation and benefits sacrifices repaid, forgoing this expense MIGHT have been viewed (by those employees) as a gesture of goodwill.

One more time....the cost of doing business. Do some people have a problem understanding the simple concept of spending money to make money?

Airport signage? A drop in the bucket in the long run.

Website updates? Come on, grasping at straws. It's a logo change and the webmaster needs to do something during the day when not playing World of Warcraft.  Wink

Stationary? Perhaps based on how much is sitting around HQ but still a drop in the bucket.

Business cards? Again, a drop in the bucket. I've never met a pilot, stewardess/steward, or mechanic with business cards.

Ticket jackets? Again, a drop in the bucket and they have to be printed anyways.

Seatback safety cards? Doubtful. I'll check tomorrow's flight but I don't ever remember seeing a Delta logo on the cards.

Inflight videos? Saftey video...sure, but yet again a drop in the bucket. IFE...it gets switched out at some point anyways so just start using the new logo on the next cycle.

As for the employees wanting a gesture of goodwill I only need to direct you to the video that was released as part of the exit from bankruptcy to see the morale boosted quite a bit by the changes. Of course I noticed you used the word MIGHT in your sentence as an out for when challenged on your ideas. I'm sure there are SOME employees (see how that works, I've given myself an out just like you) were upset the money was spent but I would bet that the majority of employees are fine with it.

But as with ourselves whether they like the actual logo is a completely different topic.
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ANITIX87
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 17):
How about...

All these have to do with re-branding, and not with the livery change. Re-branding is a different story altogether, and yes, this was necessary because of the new image Delta wants now that it's out of bankruptcy.

The livery comes along with it, so, yes, the new livery makes sense and may not cost them more money than the old one.

As for this comment...

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 17):
- plus, I know that they paid handsomely to have the new logo/livery professionally designed and consumer tested.

They clearly didn't do enough customer testing. The ideal sample group would be this website and with all the negative feedback the livery is getting, it's obvious they should have re-thought it. (Half-joking)

TIS
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D L X
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting ORD (Reply 15):
I couldn't disagree more. Delta, like every other company, works with various budgets. One of those is the marketing budget. The marketing budget has funds allocated for spending on projects deemed worthy by the marketing director (Tim Mapes). Delta has determined that the best way to spend the marketing dollars is to rebrand the airline coinciding with the emergence from bankruptcy. If Delta had chosen not to rebrand, it still would have needed to spend the marketing money on things like a new advertising campaign, etc.

Well, a new advertising campaign would go a lot further with television and print advertising instead of painting the planes. So many people couldn't care less what color the plane is, but a television commercial might get their attention. I remember Delta having excellent commercials in the 90s and early 2000s. How many commercials could they buy if they could use the money for repainting for commercials instead?
 
deltagator
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:51 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 23):
I remember Delta having excellent commercials in the 90s and early 2000s.

Yes they did.

Quoting D L X (Reply 23):
How many commercials could they buy if they could use the money for repainting for commercials instead?

Just to play Devil's Advocate here...in this day of Tivo and DVRs how many people would just skip right past those commercials. I know I would and I like aviation. I can only imagine the same from folks who could care less.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
halls120
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:58 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 21):
One more time....the cost of doing business. Do some people have a problem understanding the simple concept of spending money to make money?

The answer to this question is obvious, especially on Anet.

There are far too many stupid "why is __ airline doing ___" when the answer is plainly obvious to anyone with any small amount of business sense.
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antoniemey
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:58 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 23):
How many commercials could they buy if they could use the money for repainting for commercials instead?

None. They're spending LESS now to repaint the planes than they were before the changed the livery.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:06 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 5):
We mean heavy checks that do not happen every year when the plane is getting torn apart anyways and will be out of commission for some time.

Even in heavy check planes do not require paint after coming out. I've been in this business for 12 years and have seen a lot of planes painted. Not one was fresh out of heavy check.

Delta changed its color sfor one reason only.....market branding. New leaders, new attitude, a new look... a new airline
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deltagator
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:15 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 27):
Even in heavy check planes do not require paint after coming out. I've been in this business for 12 years and have seen a lot of planes painted. Not one was fresh out of heavy check.

Delta changed its color sfor one reason only.....market branding. New leaders, new attitude, a new look... a new airline

Interesting to know on the heavy checks. I figure it is as good a time as any to get it painted then but if not then so be it.

And I've been saying all along it was a marketing decision, right or wrong is up for debate, but that's all it was...bottom line.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 25):
The answer to this question is obvious, especially on Anet.

There are far too many stupid "why is __ airline doing ___" when the answer is plainly obvious to anyone with any small amount of business sense.

Unfortunately it's not just relegated to A.net airchair CEOs. I run across it every day in the non-airline world and it can drive me crazy.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
D L X
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 21):
One more time....the cost of doing business. Do some people have a problem understanding the simple concept of spending money to make money?

Sure, but it's perfectly reasonable to question a business decision (even if you're not a CEO) when you honestly don't believe that there will be a return on the investment. I'm not convinced yet that repainting a fleet when the current paintjob is current and refreshing is spending money to make money -- especially when money is tight, and could be used elsewhere (like bringing back their excellent television ads).

Have you never criticized a call that Urban Mayer made when the play had a bad result? Sure you have. You're not a coach, but you know enough to criticize. (And you might even be right!) The idea that CEOs are infalliBULL amazes me, even after we aviation fans have seen more than our fair share of dimwit CEOs ruining good airlines. (For instance, how many A.net contributors could do a better job than Frank Lorenzo? Lots. Even Halls.  Wink j/k)
 
deltagator
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:28 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 29):
Have you never criticized a call that Urban Mayer made when the play had a bad result? Sure you have.

No, everything he has done has been perfect so far.  Wink We have the national championship to prove it.  Wink

Quoting D L X (Reply 29):
The idea that CEOs are infalliBULL amazes me, even after we aviation fans have seen more than our fair share of dimwit CEOs ruining good airlines.

I've never said Grinstein is infallible. Only the Pope is infallible.  stirthepot 

Perhaps I'm just being an armchair CEO but I have a hell of a lot more business experience than some pimply faced 13 year old virgin that seems to populate CivAv these days. Perhaps I'm wrong but I see it as an ok spending of money by Delta. That said how many DL planes have you been around lately? Just wondering because I'm in and out of ATL every week and there are plenty of them in the fleet that need to be painted anyways. I see your point and respect your opinion but I happen to differ with it.

Quoting D L X (Reply 29):
Sure, but it's perfectly reasonable to question a business decision (even if you're not a CEO) when you honestly don't believe that there will be a return on the investment. I'm not convinced yet that repainting a fleet when the current paintjob is current and refreshing is spending money to make money -- especially when money is tight, and could be used elsewhere (like bringing back their excellent television ads).

Again I ask how many people are going to skip past those TV ads? Quite a few. And honestly an ad has never made be purchase a ticket or brought an airline's name to my mind. I purchase based on who can get me where I need to go at the times I need to get there. Others purchase on price and then there are the denziens of A.net that purchase based on whether or not the damn plane is painted in Eurowhite and there is unlimited AVOD to keep their ADD infested minds occupied for an hour flight.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:28 pm

Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
Okay this not a hater e mail about Delta so lets get that out on the table. My question is Does it make sense to spend all this money on changing the livery of Deltas planes. There are so many liveries of them and to be honest, they are all good. Why not save your money and spend it else where?

Honestly, look at the paint on Delta Air Lines and then look at the paint on the new United Airlines livery, if anyone should be spending money somewhere else I would say it is United Airlines. The new Delta Air Lines paint colours are in-line with the previous Delta Air Lines paint schemes. Keeping the colours white with only a coloured tail, and signage keeps the cost down and as pointed out the planes have to go out of service from time to time and that is when the re-paint is being done..

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
D L X
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 30):
Again I ask how many people are going to skip past those TV ads? Quite a few.

That's a good point, for sure. However, interestingly enough, (having had this exact same conversation with a schoolmate), studies have shown that Tivo viewers that skip through commercials still have better brand recognition than non-Tivo viewers because get this: you actually have to watch the commercial (albeit faster) to know where it ends. Non-Tivo viewers get up, go to the bathroom, chat with others, etc, and don't pay attention to the commercials at all -- unless they're really good, attention grabbing commercials.

Maybe I'm still just too old-school, but I think there is a lot of value in brand recognition. I fly enough that I don't choose solely on price anymore, but more likely on alliance and schedule. But if I were choosing on price when all the fares are nearly the same, I'm going to choose the airline that I know the best to be reputable. It means I'm going to get there safely and with good service when I see an ad, because it says "this airline has enough money that it can blow some of it on advertisements." That's power, that's the difference between advertisers Jetblue and Southwest over non-advertisers Airtran and Frontier.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 30):
That said how many DL planes have you been around lately? Just wondering because I'm in and out of ATL every week and there are plenty of them in the fleet that need to be painted anyways.

I don't see them up close, but from maybe 30-50 feet away when they fly over my head at Gravelly Point. I go there about once every 3 weeks or so to shoot pics. I'm definitely close enough to see gross paint problems, like on all the US 737s still carrying Death Star Blue paintjobs.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 30):
No, everything he has done has been perfect so far. We have the national championship to prove it.

You would have been smoked by Michigan.  Wink
 
deltagator
Posts: 6170
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:00 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 32):
However, interestingly enough, (having had this exact same conversation with a schoolmate), studies have shown that Tivo viewers that skip through commercials still have better brand recognition than non-Tivo viewers because get this: you actually have to watch the commercial (albeit faster) to know where it ends. Non-Tivo viewers get up, go to the bathroom, chat with others, etc, and don't pay attention to the commercials at all -- unless they're really good, attention grabbing commercials.

Interesting. It makes good sense. Perhaps I'm smarter than the average bear or have somewhat of a marketing background but I do notice commercials like that. If watching the commercial in real time though you'll usually find me screaming at the TV for the stupidity of it and lack of message.

Quoting D L X (Reply 32):
Maybe I'm still just too old-school, but I think there is a lot of value in brand recognition.

Sometimes old school is the best school. I'm very brand loyal myself.

Quoting D L X (Reply 32):
I fly enough that I don't choose solely on price anymore, but more likely on alliance and schedule.

Myself as well. More schedule than anything givenn my access to ATL but alliance definitely factors in as well.

Quoting D L X (Reply 32):
But if I were choosing on price when all the fares are nearly the same, I'm going to choose the airline that I know the best to be reputable. It means I'm going to get there safely and with good service when I see an ad, because it says "this airline has enough money that it can blow some of it on advertisements."

Interesting. Never thought of it that way.

Quoting D L X (Reply 32):
That's power, that's the difference between advertisers Jetblue and Southwest over non-advertisers Airtran and Frontier.

Perhaps not in your neck of the woods but we get an assload of Airtran commercials (thankfully they have dropped dimwit Mick Vick as a spokesman) and Frontier commercials in ATL.

Also, we get a ton of WN commercials as well and the closest place they fly to is Birmingham over 2 hours away.

Quoting D L X (Reply 32):
You would have been smoked by Michigan.

Keep drinking that Kool-Aid. I offer up your game against USC as a foreshadowing of what Florida would have inflicted upon you.

That said I think you guys will be pretty good this year and should most definitely beat OSU.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
FLYGUY767
Posts: 1441
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:24 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 32):
Maybe I'm still just too old-school, but I think there is a lot of value in brand recognition.

100% Agreed..

Reputations are everything to the airlines, as are the names and images associated with the name of an airline. When someone says British Airways, QANTAS, Singapore Airlines, or Emirates their is sense of civility and service associated with all of them. Brand Recognition is everything that is why Delta Air Lines has closely associated it exit from bankruptcy with a slough of new innovations to its fleet. They want the public to think of the new Delta and the new Delta image. Not the old Delta and the old Delta image. Marketing can do wonders!

Quoting D L X (Reply 32):
I fly enough that I don't choose solely on price anymore, but more likely on alliance and schedule.

100% Agreed..

I care less about price. When I fly I want an airline that I know for service, that I care for equipment, and I have had experience with, or I have heard has good service. If I see the only two choices being Airline A and Airline B, I look at what is the difference between Airline A and Airline B. I am spending my money, I want the assurance of the product before I look at the price..

Quoting D L X (Reply 32):
But if I were choosing on price when all the fares are nearly the same, I'm going to choose the airline that I know the best to be reputable.

100% Agreed..

I have a feeling more and more people are doing this these days. People are not as naive as they were 10 years ago. the era of the internet and the airline review sights has a lot to do when travellers chose their airline. I think it is a common misconception, or Urban Legend that people only chose price over service. If that were the case airlines like Qantas, Singapore, British Airways, ANA, and Air New Zealand would be out of business. It is supply and demand to a point, the notion that price is the be all end all is lost. That is why so many airlines are investing in their onboard product. If people flew just for price you would not see airlines investing in new cabins, new services, and language speakers.

Quoting D L X (Reply 32):
That's power, that's the difference between advertisers Jetblue and Southwest over non-advertisers Airtran and Frontier.

100% Agreed..

Frontier has failed time and time again with the two previous California experiments. Does anyone remember the routes of LAX-PHL, LAX-MSP, SFO-LAX, SFO-LAS? Those routes failed as Frontier Airlines has very little name brand recognition in the California and East Coast markets. Just because an airline flies to a market does not mean that the people in that market know the brand, or what the brand entails. I was discussed over and over again that when Frontier started the SFO-LAX service their was little or no advertising. The route was unknown. If people hadn't view the internet to purchase tickets they would not have known the service even existed. The same can be said for the SFO-LAS service.

When people in the Bay Area think of flying they think of a handful of main airlines in their market. After all of those the market presence of the other major airlines in the Bay Area market is very distant. You are more likely to see someone from the East Coast purchasing a ticket to fly to San Francisco, that the other way around when ti comes to East Coast based airlines. Who wants to fly on Frontier when United, Alaska, Delta, and American Airlines all appear for the same price? Name Brand recognition is everything.

Without advertising a route is as good as cancelled! Hopefully Frontier has learned their lesson!

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
PExDCA
Posts: 222
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:42 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 21):
One more time....the cost of doing business. Do some people have a problem understanding the simple concept of spending money to make money?

Business 101 Lesson of the Day: You can also spend money foolishly and not have it bring a Return-On-Investment. And if there is not a tangible ROI then it is not money well spent.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 21):
As for the employees wanting a gesture of goodwill I only need to direct you to the video that was released as part of the exit from bankruptcy to see the morale boosted quite a bit by the changes.

You can also choose to defer certain non-essential expenses when your coffers are less than full or when those expenses are being funded by employee "give backs" and it MAY be perceived by those employees that their $$$ contributions are not being valued because they are being spent foolishly on unnecessary expenses (which in turn will drive down employee morale faster than a P.R. department coordinated and staged livery unveiling party will build it.)

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 21):
Of course I noticed you used the word MIGHT in your sentence as an out for when challenged on your ideas.

I will stand behind my ideas. Check out my occupation, I know what I am commenting on. Trust me, I have been around here enough to know that capitalizing a word does not give me an out nor does it indicate any intent to not stand behind my thoughts. All I was trying to get across is that I recognize that nothing in this world is as absolute as you might like to think.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 22):
All these have to do with re-branding, and not with the livery change.

Marketing 101 Lesson of the Day: These things are inextricably linked. The livery change is a part of the larger rebranding and neither would be successful separately.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 27):
Delta changed its color sfor one reason only.....market branding. New leaders, new attitude, a new look... a new airline

Sadly, the powers that be at DL have missed the point yet again. It is the "old" Delta that people loved and still remember fondly. They do not want a "new" airline, they want the "old" traditional Delta with the "old" Service-first attitude and with all the modern ammenities added! Something more "in-tune" with the pre-Ron Allen livery would have conveyed that better.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 30):
but I have a hell of a lot more business experience than some pimply faced 13 year old virgin that seems to populate CivAv these days

Interesting perspective, Junior.  duck 
"A single twig breaks, but the bundle of twigs is strong." - Tecumseh
 
deltagator
Posts: 6170
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:56 am

RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:16 pm

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 35):
Business 101 Lesson of the Day: You can also spend money foolishly and not have it bring a Return-On-Investment. And if there is not a tangible ROI then it is not money well spent.

Absolutely. I was preaching that left and right as I saw my company spend VC money foolishly like it was printed on toilet paper in the late 90s up until the DotCom crash. In this case I think DL has done the right thing. Time will tell if they were right or wrong.

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 35):
You can also choose to defer certain non-essential expenses when your coffers are less than full or when those expenses are being funded by employee "give backs" and it MAY be perceived by those employees that their $$$ contributions are not being valued because they are being spent foolishly on unnecessary expenses (which in turn will drive down employee morale faster than a P.R. department coordinated and staged livery unveiling party will build it.)

But again I think the DL management is doing the right thing and that the employees agree with it as well. Time will tell.

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 35):
Interesting perspective, Junior.

You're not much older than me there Sparky.  Wink

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 35):
I will stand behind my ideas. Check out my occupation, I know what I am commenting on.

Ah yes, marketing is your occupation. Pretty broad but I'll play along. You also mention PeopleExpress in your signature as well. What marketing genius came up with the Fly Smarter tagline as they spent themselves into debt and had to sell off the airline in advance of getting sent into liquidation in BK court? I hope that wasn't you.  Wink

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 35):
All I was trying to get across is that I recognize that nothing in this world is as absolute as you might like to think.

I never said it was. I definitely understand there are gray areas out there.

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 35):
Sadly, the powers that be at DL have missed the point yet again. It is the "old" Delta that people loved and still remember fondly. They do not want a "new" airline, they want the "old" traditional Delta with the "old" Service-first attitude and with all the modern ammenities added! Something more "in-tune" with the pre-Ron Allen livery would have conveyed that better.

Have you ever considered the new livery has a nod to the old one but at the same time goes forward from it? The service first attitude is there and they are in the process of adding in (or back in some cases) the ammenities that people want onboard.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
PExDCA
Posts: 222
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:10 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 36):
Ah yes, marketing is your occupation. Pretty broad but I'll play along.

How about Global Director of Marketing for a company consistently ranked near the top on BusinessWeek's "Most Valuable Brands" list... good enough?

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 36):
Have you ever considered the new livery has a nod to the old one but at the same time goes forward from it?

No, but I'm sure the folks at Delta would be pleased that you've been gulping the Kool-Aid as fast as they can pour it! And BTW, if it takes someone having to point that out (as opposed to it being intuitively perceived), then the folks behind it were not successful.  Sad

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 36):
I hope that wasn't you.

Don't worry... it wasn't. But thanks for your concern!  cheerful 
"A single twig breaks, but the bundle of twigs is strong." - Tecumseh
 
deltagator
Posts: 6170
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:20 pm

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 37):
No, but I'm sure the folks at Delta would be pleased that you've been gulping the Kool-Aid as fast as they can pour it!

Oh please. Whatever floats your boat but calling me some brainwashed Widget Junkie is childish from someone who says they are a Global Director of Marketing. I have been more than vocal about the issues with Delta. You can search through posts on here and see that for fact. Did you have these same complaints against UA when they rebranded coming out of BK court?

I personally think they have made decent steps towards fixing what was broken though they have a ways to go. You on the other hand don't even seem to be open to any positive thoughts about them. Just curious, do you even fly them at all or are you basing your opinion on nothing but a look from afar? I suppose we'll just agree to disagree.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2142
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:01 pm

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 31):
Honestly, look at the paint on Delta Air Lines and then look at the paint on the new United Airlines livery, if anyone should be spending money somewhere else I would say it is United Airlines. The new Delta Air Lines paint colours are in-line with the previous Delta Air Lines paint schemes. Keeping the colours white with only a coloured tail, and signage keeps the cost down and as pointed out the planes have to go out of service from time to time and that is when the re-paint is being done..

Your constant bashing on this site of UA is getting boring, please try and diversify that anger somewhere else, your getting a reputation on this site now. Whatever happenend to you in a previous life with UA, get over it and move on!!
 twocents 
 
ImperialEagle
Posts: 2238
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:08 pm

Quoting BOSSAN (Reply 9):

Recently saw one of these old Budd "rags" rotting away at the Pima Air Museum in Tuscon.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
asteriskceo
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:48 pm

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 17):
- plus, I know that they paid handsomely to have the new logo/livery professionally designed and consumer tested.

Consumer tested? Like did they go up to crack heads on the street and ask for their opinions? It would seem that way...
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:57 pm

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 35):
Business 101 Lesson of the Day: You can also spend money foolishly and not have it bring a Return-On-Investment. And if there is not a tangible ROI then it is not money well spent.

Agree, but it is rather difficult to determine the ROI levels on a brand image change. Especially given that the majority of consumers within Delta's target group (outside of a few Deltoids (myself included)) buy based on price and schedule. Therefore, to these price-conscious consumers, whether Delta's planes are painted red, pink or brown doesn't make a difference as long as purchase price is within the selected range of the consumer.

Even with Market Mix Modelling (MMM) and other tools that are available to the Marketing community, it is difficult to find the ROI on this one in an immediate sense. Over-time (ie YA vs FYTD) DL could potentially see whether brand preference, PI/WPI, and even penetration have increased...but I don't think, at least in my experience it is something that immediately makes a difference in light of the competitive market that airlines work within.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
GlobalATL
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:28 pm

Quoting N160LH (Reply 18):
Someone check me on this...

But, I have heard that the new DL livery is actually cheaper to paint than the Deltaflot Livery... The reason is that the new paint job only requires three different color... where the Deltaflot livery required 10 or 11 different colors... Fewer colors... equals less inventory needed at the paint shop...

True. I heard it said by somebody on the webcast. They're hoping the corrosion will become less on the tail.
TriStar BusinessElite FedEx AirTran Delta Air Lines oneworld SkyTeam JetBlue/jetBlue MAXjet SkyMiles Eos = good spelling
 
ord
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:43 pm

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 41):
Consumer tested? Like did they go up to crack heads on the street and ask for their opinions? It would seem that way...

Aside from consumers, the new Delta livery was developed in conjunction with an internal brand group. That's right, Delta's very own employees, across a wide array of function areas, selected this livery over 100+ other liveries developed at the concept stage. Obviously they liked it best, which was critical considering previous livery changes never had employee input.
 
PExDCA
Posts: 222
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:22 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 42):
Agree, but it is rather difficult to determine the ROI levels on a brand image change. Especially given that the majority of consumers within Delta's target group (outside of a few Deltoids (myself included)) buy based on price and schedule. Therefore, to these price-conscious consumers, whether Delta's planes are painted red, pink or brown doesn't make a difference as long as purchase price is within the selected range of the consumer.

 checkmark  Very true! Thanks for providing this perspective! It is part of the basis of my comments... the livery, logo font and signage changes are significant expenses that in my opinion are questionable expenditures at this time given the company's financial standing and having recently reduced employee benefits/compensation in the name of cost containment. As a marketing professional I know the value (and expense) of rebranding under the "right" circumstances and I simply question the cost/benefit balance in this case.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 38):
brainwashed Widget Junkie

Your words, not mine. My Kool-aid remark was based solely on the fact that your rhetoric seems to come directly out of or is rooted in the Delta P.R. department FAQ's about the new livery/rebranding. You even refer me to a video of a DL staged P.R. event as evidence of employee morale!

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 38):
You on the other hand don't even seem to be open to any positive thoughts about them. Just curious, do you even fly them at all or are you basing your opinion on nothing but a look from afar?

Not true. This thread is about the new livery (and rebranding) and whether it makes sense. My opinion as an experienced and proven marketing professional is that is does not. I have been a Delta FF for many years and have regularly achieved Gold or Platinum status. Based on that first-hand experience I think they are a great company with a solid franchise, probably the most dedicated employees (with the possible exception of WN) and HUGE potential for future success. But my love of Delta as a consumer and as an enthusiast does not mean that I have to blindly buy into every decision their marketing department makes.
"A single twig breaks, but the bundle of twigs is strong." - Tecumseh
 
ord
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 45):
As a marketing professional I know the value (and expense) of rebranding under the "right" circumstances and I simply question the cost/benefit balance in this case.

I respectfully disagree. I think this was the best time for Delta to rebrand. Rebranding signals change, and not too many companies have changed more than Delta in recent years. A new image will cause customers and prospects to take a new look at Delta to see what has changed (from the new uniforms to the new cabins to the cleaner planes to the new entertainment, etc.). There are only so many times Delta's prospects are going to reconsider what airline they fly, making the emergence from bankruptcy the most opportune time to signal that there is a new Delta that people should look at. Without a new branding effort now, people will say Delta came out of bankruptcy and is the same old same old. Delta's rebranding allows Delta to truly change passengers' perceptions.

Delta stands to gain the most long-term benefits by rebranding now, with all of the positive changes that have taken place, rather than later. If the rebranding were to wait a few years, it would simply be a dressing up an airline whose changes occurred years earlier.
 
deltagator
Posts: 6170
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:07 am

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 45):
Very true! Thanks for providing this perspective! It is part of the basis of my comments... the livery, logo font and signage changes are significant expenses that in my opinion are questionable expenditures at this time given the company's financial standing and having recently reduced employee benefits/compensation in the name of cost containment.

I realize I never discussed the ROI topic but it was late last night and I'm fighting allergies. ROI on a branding concept is very tough to determine. You yourself have even said that. I can't put any solid numbers behind it

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 45):
Your words, not mine. My Kool-aid remark was based solely on the fact that your rhetoric seems to come directly out of or is rooted in the Delta P.R. department FAQ's about the new livery/rebranding. You even refer me to a video of a DL staged P.R. event as evidence of employee morale!

You said Kool-Aid and I responded in kind. I am not taking my talking points from any Delta PR release and I am one of the last to buy into a lot of the BS reasoning behind brand identities. Personally I think you have to be drunk all the time to work in Marketing given so much crap that comes out of it. I'm not attacking you per se here but I think you can agree that there is a lot of really bad marketing and branding going on out there that even makes you go "huh?"

The PR event might have been staged but you don't get that many people there off of work hours for a corporate rah rah speech unless they believe in it. I know I sure as hell wouldn't have gone had I not believed in it (if I was a DL employee which I am not.) I fly them every week twice a week and I meet and chat with tons of their employees and I can assure you, and perhaps you've seen it yourself since you are a DL FFer, but morale has imporved greatly over the past few months since the exit from BK.

Don't discount that half-assed Widget on the tail. Perhaps we will never understand it since we aren't DL employees but to some of those flks who have been there over the years through good, bad, and Leo Mullin's aftermath but it means something to those folks. If seeing that Widget makes them smile a little bit more when greeting fliers on board, taking tickets, changing seat assignments, or getting the bags to claim belts quicker and that in turn results in the customers recognizing that then you have just bought yourself some brand loyalty and the ROI on that is incredible.

Quoting ORD" class=quote target=_blank>ORD (Reply 46):
Delta stands to gain the most long-term benefits by rebranding now, with all of the positive changes that have taken place, rather than later. If the rebranding were to wait a few years, it would simply be a dressing up an airline whose changes occurred years earlier.

My point exactly. Yes the money might be tight right now and perhaps it could have been spent in other areas. I don't think the money they've spent is even a drop in the bucket towards the purchase of a couple of needed 777s but ot has ibeen spent and now we'll see what happens.

As ORD has said what point is made rebranding 2 or 3 years down the road? None at all. Do it now when your in the news because you successfully made your way through BK court and you want to woo customers back that you might have lost in the past. It makes sense now and I would think a marketing professional like you would see that PExDCA.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
PExDCA
Posts: 222
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:00 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 47):
I think you can agree that there is a lot of really bad marketing and branding going on out there that even makes you go "huh?"

 checkmark  I knew that if we kept this dialogue going long enough we would agree on something!  Smile

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 47):
The PR event might have been staged but you don't get that many people there off of work hours for a corporate rah rah speech unless they believe in it.

Or unless they were curious to see the unveiling and how what was being introduced might impact their futures.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 47):
Don't discount that half-assed Widget on the tail. Perhaps we will never understand it since we aren't DL employees but to some of those flks who have been there over the years through good, bad, and Leo Mullin's aftermath but it means something to those folks.

I understand it very well. Delta employees are proud to work for such an outstanding company and the Widget is a symbol of their company. It is truly an icon they feel a connection with. The Widget is a HUGE part of DL heritage and means a lot to almost every DL employee I have ever spoken about it with. It's probably why so many of the employees I have spoken to feel so strongly about the new livery not being "true" to its historical value. I have heard repeatedly from them the same issues and disappointments expressed on A.net about it (e.g. it being made all red instead of the historical blue and red, the new similarity to the CITGO logo as a result of the new 3-D effect and the dissatisfaction with it's chopped corners and tilted placement on the tail.) In my professional opinion, the current treatment of the Widget has weakened its brand value (at least in the short-term).

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 47):
I would think a marketing professional like you would see that PExDCA.

Speaking as someone who has made money by convincing companies that rebranding makes good sense, I advise companies to look not just at marketing in a vacuum, but rather in the context of their whole business. Given the fact that airline industry is much more price driven than image driven (see Alitalia744's remarks above), and given the financial challenges DL faces now and will likely face in the near future, when I consider the many millions of dollars all this cost, I still believe the benefits and ROI of the rebranding will be limited at best and that there were more strategic uses for those funds.
"A single twig breaks, but the bundle of twigs is strong." - Tecumseh
 
deltagator
Posts: 6170
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RE: Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 48):
I knew that if we kept this dialogue going long enough we would agree on something!

Just curious, do you get bewildered by the ads on TV and just wonder who in the heck the target demo is by the way they present something or the company as a whole? My minor was Business and I'm going back to get my MBA with a concentration in Marketing and Finance but I swear I could do a better job than half of the folks out there with just what I have learned on the job.

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 48):
I still believe the benefits and ROI of the rebranding will be limited at best and that there were more strategic uses for those funds.

Time will tell. Let's regroup in a few years. If they come out with a new paint scheme in 3 years I think we will have our answer.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."