pmg1704
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Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:11 am

Anybody else notice this tidbit? I did a search but didn't see anything.

Quote:
Steve Udvar-Hazy, founder and CEO of International Lease Finance Corp. and the biggest customer for the Dreamliner, was eager to see it.

"Even if you buy 74, you don't get a peek before you guys," he said to a small group of journalists before the 3:30 p.m. ceremony started.

Hazy disclosed that he has a meeting Monday in Atlanta with Delta Air Lines. Delta's new CEO recently said that it might order as many as 100 Dreamliners.



http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/322904_dreamliner09.html
 
DLOnur
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:14 am

Delta's "New CEO"?

 Confused

Grinstein hasn't left yet.....

Though, considering how backed up Boeing is with 787 orders, going through a leasing agency is going to be the best way for DL to get a hold of a bunch of 787's.....

-o-
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CruzinAltitude
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:28 am

It would make sense for DL to get some leased 787's to cover the shorter term needs, then order some more for 2013 and beyond. Just a thought...
 
Evan767
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:29 am

They must be talking about Whitehurst.
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mptpa
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:31 am

I read that too, and thought to myself that the CFO is going to become the new CEO as suspected. Then, the only way to get the early 787s would be via someone who is holding the spots and that would be ILFC. They could lease say for 5 years till they get their own frames, or make a deal with ILFC on buy-leaseback which is better on the books than straight purchase (off balance sheet transaction). Either case, it is about time for DAL to get some of the 787s to replace those 767s and 757s.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:33 am

I think you will see both DL and AA order 787s and take leased aircraft. This is something some people are missing. Between the likely "slot reservations" that these two key carriers have and the ability to pick up leased aircraft, they could both amass rather large 787 fleets starting in 2009. They haven't missed the boat by any means.

There was also an unconfirmed rumor that CO wanted to greatly increase it's number sooner than later, and it could also do so via the lease companies, either via direct lease or trading a later slot for an earlier slot (with compensation).
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1337Delta764
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:47 am

Most of ILFC's 787s will be RR-powered. I would assume that GE would be the preferred choice for Delta, as GE has financed Delta in bankruptcy and that Delta has ordered the 777-200LR. AA will probably go for the RR-powered aircraft.
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DLOnur
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:54 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 3):
They must be talking about Whitehurst.

Whitehurst is the COO and yeah, that must have been a "typo"...right?  Wink

While there is serious internal discussion between Whitehurst and Bastian as internal candidates, there is also serious discussion of external candidates as well. The BOD will have final say in the matter.

Regardless, nothing will probably be made public at least till late in the summer/early fall.
What you believe is what you see.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:59 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
Most of ILFC's 787s will be RR-powered.

Well, right now, there are still something like 30 that are not specified.

And ILFC has 73 of 74 orders as 788, so they are looking toward carriers that want 763ER replacements. AA and DL come to mind.

I also assume GECAS has some reserved slots for the plane even if they haven't announced. So there's a source for GE power.
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atlaaron
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:09 am

Quoting DLOnur (Reply 7):
While there is serious internal discussion between Whitehurst and Bastian as internal candidates, there is also serious discussion of external candidates as well. The BOD will have final say in the matter.

Although I believe Grinstein put in his opinion that they should choose an internal candidate.

Great thread and observation by the OP though.
 
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:19 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
AA will probably go for the RR-powered aircraft.

That was my opinion too on another thread. While I am not surprised to see the likes of AA & DL talking to ILFC and I would expect a combo of lease & buy, I'm still mystified that GECAS hasn't pulled the 787 trigger yet.
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Lokey123
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:58 am

Leasing companies are still very tentative to over exposure to the American majors. However, with that being said, I still believe that leasing companies will still have some slots available for them but not in extremely large numbers.
 
MD-90
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:06 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
Most of ILFC's 787s will be RR-powered. I would assume that GE would be the preferred choice for Delta, as GE has financed Delta in bankruptcy and that Delta has ordered the 777-200LR.

Delta did order their other 777s with RR and they were pleased with the RB211 on the L-1011 (once it got past its earliest years).
 
mrcomet
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:06 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
Most of ILFC's 787s will be RR-powered. I would assume that GE would be the preferred choice for Delta, as GE has financed Delta in bankruptcy and that Delta has ordered the 777-200LR. AA will probably go for the RR-powered aircraft.

i thought one of the advantages of the 787 was that engines could be swapped easily and that leasing companies especially were pushing this. Well? Was it hype or is it real?
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1337Delta764
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:34 am

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 12):
Delta did order their other 777s with RR and they were pleased with the RB211 on the L-1011 (once it got past its earliest years).

Well, Delta did not have a choice on the L-1011. As for the 777s, the Trent was considered the best engine at the time, and Delta went with what most airlines chose. In fact, RR is still the market leader on the 777, however, they may soon be beaten by GE as GE is the exclusive engine for the 777-200LR and 777-300ER.

Delta has never had a history of preferring any engine manufacturer. Delta chose P&W for the 757s, and operates a mix of GE and P&W engines for the 767s. Since all future 777 orders from Delta will either be of the 777-200LR or 777-300ER, GE is simply the wise choice for the 787.
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atmx2000
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:41 am

Quoting MrComet (Reply 13):

i thought one of the advantages of the 787 was that engines could be swapped easily and that leasing companies especially were pushing this. Well? Was it hype or is it real?

Engines can be swapped, but the engines themselves are an expensive asset. Naturally they aren't going to want swap out a large number of one engine make with another make.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:48 am

I dont mean to steal the thread but lets say that DL wanted to lease a 788 from ILFC and then wants to buy the ILFC's plane (Brand new plane on delivery) sort of like getting a slot free from ILFC? Does that make sense? Is that even legal to do?
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XT6Wagon
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:12 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 15):
Engines can be swapped, but the engines themselves are an expensive asset. Naturally they aren't going to want swap out a large number of one engine make with another make.

Indeed they are, but it remains that putting engines into storage is better than putting a whole airplane in storage. Even better, if you do it enough, you can have a nice open market for engines. So ILFC might not have to sit on engines, it might be able to slog them off to airlines as spares, or other leasing companies that have contracts for 787 frames with the opposite engine configuration.
 
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:50 am

Quoting Mptpa (Reply 4):
it is about time for DAL to get some of the 787s to replace those 767s and 757s.

They'll be used for growth long before replacement

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
Most of ILFC's 787s will be RR-powered. I would assume that GE would be the preferred choice for Delta, as GE has financed Delta in bankruptcy and that Delta has ordered the 777-200LR.

Not all of ILFC's engine options have been confirmed, and DL is no stranger to RR.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 14):
Delta has never had a history of preferring any engine manufacturer.

...oh? PW might beg to differ.
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deltal1011man
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 14):
Since all future 777 orders from Delta will either be of the 777-200LR or 777-300ER, GE is simply the wise choice for the 787

i wouldn't hold my breath on DL not get some more 772ERs

DL said THEY WOULD ORDER 135 planes(i dont see them leasing alot maybe 20 at the most)........Boeing WILL have some early slots and the 767s won't be out of the fleet for 5 to 10 more years at least (most of the leased 767-300ERs(which are the oldest in the fleet) the lease is up in 2011 and on after that?
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DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:34 am

Quoting DLOnur (Reply 7):
Regardless, nothing will probably be made public at least till late in the summer/early fall.

From Bastian's employee chat on June 8th:

(employee) When can we expect the CEO selection to be made public?

(Bastian) They didn't ask me my opinion, but I would expect prior to the end of July.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
Most of ILFC's 787s will be RR-powered. I would assume that GE would be the preferred choice for Delta, as GE has financed Delta in bankruptcy

Not necessarily. Although GE helped DL through a difficult time, DL certainly does not OWE GE an engine order for the 787's.
 
dl767captain
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:56 am

I think this is the only way dl will get the 787 really early, ya Boeing will give them some early slots but probably not as early as dl could get them through a lease, and engine type might not matter to dl if they can get a plane sooner and itlooks like aa might do the same
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:19 pm

As for the idea that DL would need to buy GE engines, DL has financing contracts with all of its lessors and financiers and having an obligation to buy from them is not one of the provisions. For one thing, no company completely has any contract and the other participants in a contract don't want a provision that could inflate the cost of a service or asset which DL might need. GE may or may not be the best supplier for 787 engines; other companies besides GE don't benefit from a requirement that DL would have to buy GE engines or use their financing services if DL can get a better deal elsewhere. In fact, having no "preferred supplier" might actually allow DL to get a better deal from GE.

DL needs 787s but they are also putting winglets on at least some of their 767s and adding the crew rest facilities in order to fly 6000 mile routes. There obviously is still a 2000 mile range difference between the 767 and 787 but the 767s are in the fleet and on the books while the 787 is a new addition. Given DL's presence in ATL and JFK, the 777LR might be the most important a/c for DL to add to the fleet since DL's real need is to reach deep into Asia and the 788 still doesn't open all of the Asian markets DL needs to open. Also, Asia flights tend to operate on larger gauge aircraft. For now, DL is alone in developing the Middle East and Africa, routes where the 787 would most likely be used on from the east coast. From the west coast, however, the 787 would be the ideal aircraft to open up new markets.
 
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STT757
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:14 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 22):
Given DL's presence in ATL and JFK, the 777LR might be the most important a/c for DL to add to the fleet since DL's real need is to reach deep into Asia and the 788 still doesn't open all of the Asian markets DL needs to open

The 787-9 has the longest range (thus far) of the 787 line, a range of 8,200-8,500nm. That puts Hong Kong within reach of ATL.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 22):
For now, DL is alone in developing the Middle East and Africa, routes where the 787 would most likely be used on from the east coast. From the west coast, however, the 787 would be the ideal aircraft to open up new markets

Israel is in the Middle East and CO has been flying twice daily 777s from EWR for 8-9 years, Kuwait is also in the Middle East and United is flying to Kuwait from IAD. So DL is far from being alone, they are just johnny come lately.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:18 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 22):
DL is alone in developing the Middle East

...UA may disagree, though I'm curious if they'll actually continue to delve deeper into such markets-- have my doubts.
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DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:28 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 23):
Israel is in the Middle East and CO has been flying twice daily 777s from EWR for 8-9 years, Kuwait is also in the Middle East and United is flying to Kuwait from IAD. So DL is far from being alone, they are just johnny come lately.

Hardly Johnny come lately. DL served many middle East destinations years ago (prior to both CO and UA) that had to be suspended for various reasons. If anything, DL is renewing its push into this theatre.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 24):
though I'm curious if they'll actually continue to delve deeper into such markets-- have my doubts.

DL is by no means done with their expansion in this area.
 
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STT757
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:30 pm

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 25):
Hardly Johnny come lately. DL served many middle East destinations years ago (prior to both CO and UA) that had to be suspended for various reasons. If anything, DL is renewing its push into this theatre.

DL left, CO stayed. That bought CO alot of good will from frequent travelers between the US and Israel.
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deltal1011man
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:37 pm

just a question how do we know that this meeting is about 787s? the new/old 752s that DL is getting from AA is owned buy ILFC right? and could it be about more T7s? Just cause its has "Delta's new CEO recently said that it might order as many as 100 Dreamliners" does that mean this meeting has to be about 787s? and just a little note its 125 787s

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/20070619/delta-order.htm
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CV880
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:37 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 23):
So DL is far from being alone, they are just johnny come lately.

DL did serve CAI/DXB before 9/11/01, and is back in DXB and will serve TLV 2x/daily as of next March. Neither CO nor UA serves Africa. As for Europe DL's 767's have to be a bit more comfortable than all the 757's that CO uses, although that will change to some degree with the addition of the EX-TW 757's.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 26):
DL left, CO stayed. That bought CO alot of good will from frequent travelers between the US and Israel.

You are comparing ONE market......besides that DL had codeshare with EL AL, and traffic was a bit suppressed in that area after 9/11.
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:44 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 26):
DL left, CO stayed. That bought CO alot of good will from frequent travelers between the US and Israel.

Fortunately, it seems very, very few if any are harboring any ill will toward DL for suspending their service to TLV as the ATL-TLV flight is doing phenominal. DL service to Israel has been so succesful that service from another DL gateway, JFK, will commence soon.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:12 pm

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 25):
DL is by no means done with their expansion in this area.

....I wasn't talking about DL

Quoting CV880 (Reply 28):
DL's 767's have to be a bit more comfortable than all the 757's that CO uses

Based on what?
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DAYflyer
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:18 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 10):
I'm still mystified that GECAS hasn't pulled the 787 trigger yet.

Perhaps with all the direct purchases of the frame and the large number ILFC has on order, they may be having trouble finding customers who require a leased airframe after 2013.
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GlobalATL
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:33 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 22):
DL is alone in developing the Middle East and Africa, routes where the 787 would most likely be used on from the east coast.



Quoting STT757 (Reply 23):
Israel is in the Middle East and CO has been flying twice daily 777s from EWR for 8-9 years, Kuwait is also in the Middle East and United is flying to Kuwait from IAD. So DL is far from being alone, they are just johnny come lately.

Seems like people are mis-reading what WorldTraveler is trying to say. I believe the point to be DL is making a large plan in DEVELOPING a middle east system, rather than UA & CO flying to just a couple airports "here and there".
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1337Delta764
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:43 pm

Well, another reason why I think GE engines would be the best option for Delta is that they ordered the 777-200LR. AC chose GE engines for the 787 for this same reason. I personally think that most airlines who order the 777-200LR or 777-300ER will choose GE for the 787, even if their previous 777s use RR engines.
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EA772LR
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:07 am

Once DL receives its 772LR's and takes on some 787's, they'll have a pretty nice and modern fleet.

Not to change the topic, but what are the odds of CO ordering the 772LR?? I know they have uprated their GE90's to 94,000lbs on their 772ER's to get more range, but since they're pushing these birds to their limits, why not go ahead and order the 772LR to run the same routes (and add new ones) but with much more cargo??
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STT757
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting GlobalATL (Reply 32):
Seems like people are mis-reading what WorldTraveler is trying to say. I believe the point to be DL is making a large plan in DEVELOPING a middle east system, rather than UA & CO flying to just a couple airports "here and there".

How does WT know that CO and UAL are not planning further expansion into the region, with CO acquiring 787s I think it's a safe bet to see new flights from IAH to the Gulf and West Africa to serve the oil market.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 34):
Not to change the topic, but what are the odds of CO ordering the 772LR?? I know they have uprated their GE90's to 94,000lbs on their 772ER's to get more range, but since they're pushing these birds to their limits, why not go ahead and order the 772LR to run the same routes (and add new ones) but with much more cargo??

The 777-200LR is unnecessary for CO because they have 787-9s on order, the 787-9 can reach anywhere CO wants to fly from EWR or IAH and at lower costs. The 787-9 is lighter than the 777-200LR and can fly 8,500nm, that puts Singapore, Bangkok, Bangalore within range of EWR and Delhi, Hong Kong, Dubai, Sydney within range of IAH.

There's a possibility CO would acquire 777-300ERs for additional capacity, however the 777-200LR is not necessary. It's too heavy and too expensive for CO, the 787-9 can do the job more efficiently.
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EA772LR
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:40 am

"however the 777-200LR is not necessary. It's too heavy and too expensive for CO, the 787-9 can do the job more efficiently."

Good Point. I wonder if Boeing comes out with the 787HGW's, will we see carriers opting for those who will be operating the 787-A models?? Much like many carriers did with the 777A models?? Granted the A model 787's are far better performers than the A model 777's
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MCOAviationFan
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:50 am

Does ILFC have any 777ERs coming available for lease? Since DL will probably be awarded ATL-PVG soon, it follows that the two 777LRs arriving in early 2008 will be allocated to this route or perhaps to the JFK-BOM route with those 777ERs moved to the PVG route. A DL exec recently mentioned JFK-NRT was under consideration for 2008, but DL does not currently have airplanes to fly it unless 777s are moved from an existing route. Maybe DL is looking for some leased 777 to continue its international push to Asia.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 36):
Good Point. I wonder if Boeing comes out with the 787HGW's, will we see carriers opting for those who will be operating the 787-A models?? Much like many carriers did with the 777A models??

The current 787 will still be very popular even if they do a new high MTOW family, given that the 788 reaches down to the 757-300 market and covers the entire 767 market. The 789 is a good complement to that. So if Boeing baselines a new 787 family around a 787-10, one can expect a 789ER and 787-11 to join in. These would replace 777 frames, and not the smaller frames. It would largely end up like the 737NG where the 737-600/700 and 800/900 have extensive changes between the two, yet be overall one giant family. Cheaper to operate only on one side of the divide, but yet still far cheaper than having two completely different airframes.

Of course the real question is just how much bigger to make a 787HGW model. It could be a 100% replacement for any 777 with ease, or more.
 
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ER757
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:28 am

Scott Carson was on the local news here in Seattle after the rollout and when asked about the order book he mentioned DL and AA specifically saying he would point them first toward the leasing companies but would also be able to find them "a few" early slots. This report seems to support Carson's comments.
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 35):
How does WT know that CO and UAL are not planning further expansion into the region, with CO acquiring 787s I think it's a safe bet to see new flights from IAH to the Gulf and West Africa to serve the oil market.

How many times has Continental him-hawed around with service to Lagos.. Finally, Delta Air Lines came up to the plate and started service to Lagos from Atlanta. Prepare yourself word has it that JFK-Lagos is coming soon, as well as a tag to another African city from Lagos..

Continental has played this Micky Mouse game with Lagos and Moscow for years. Both are markets that Delta Air Lines serves, and serves well. It is time for Continental to quiet talking and start acting. Yes, yes I am sure you are going to come back with something to the likes of, "Wait until the 787 arrives". We have heard that over and over again. IN the meantime Delta is using existing equipment to establish brand recognition in the African market.

In reference to United Airlines they dont have the aircraft. A simple 777 delay at an out station such as Rome causing a system wide backup. United Airlines is spread way to thin, and does not have a hub in a African O/D market from the United States. The exception being IAD, and that hub is served to Africa with Code-Share metal.

-JD
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FLYGUY767
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 35):
How does WT know that CO and UAL are not planning further expansion into the region, with CO acquiring 787s I think it's a safe bet to see new flights from IAH to the Gulf and West Africa to serve the oil market.

How many times has Continental him-hawed around with service to Lagos.. Finally, Delta Air Lines came up to the plate and started service to Lagos from Atlanta. Prepare yourself word has it that JFK-Lagos is coming soon, as well as a tag to another African city from Lagos..

Continental has played this Mickey Mouse game with Lagos and Moscow for years. Both are markets that Delta Air Lines serves, and serves well. It is time for Continental to quiet talking and start acting. Yes, yes I am sure you are going to come back with something to the likes of, "Wait until the 787 arrives". We have heard that over and over again. IN the meantime Delta is using existing equipment to establish brand recognition in the African market.

In reference to United Airlines they dont have the aircraft. A simple 777 delay at an out station such as Rome causing a system wide backup. United Airlines is spread way to thin, and does not have a hub in a African O/D market from the United States. The exception being IAD, and that hub is served to Africa with Code-Share metal.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
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STT757
Posts: 13173
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 40):
How many times has Continental him-hawed around with service to Lagos.. Finally, Delta Air Lines came up to the plate and started service to Lagos from Atlanta. Prepare yourself word has it that JFK-Lagos is coming soon, as well as a tag to another African city from Lagos..



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 40):
Continental has played this Micky Mouse game with Lagos and Moscow for years. Both are markets that Delta Air Lines serves, and serves well. It is time for Continental to quiet talking and start acting. Yes, yes I am sure you are going to come back with something to the likes of, "Wait until the 787 arrives". We have heard that over and over again. IN the meantime Delta is using existing equipment to establish brand recognition in the African market.

Which do you think is more lucrative, ATL-Dubai, ATL-Lagos. Or IAH-Dubai, IAH-Lagos?

Note, Emirates is coming to IAH this fall. Also note the many Weekly public charters on all Business Class MD-11s from IAH to Lagos, Launda etc.

The premium traffic generated from Houston is why British Airways serves both Gatwick and Heathrow from Houston, the only airport in the US BA flies to both Gatwick and Heathrow. And why Houston and not EWR is where CO will launch it's first Heathrow flights.

Houston is the center of premium travel between the US and the Gulf and West Africa, not Atlanta and not even New York.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
beech19
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:30 am

RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:17 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 14):
In fact, RR is still the market leader on the 777, however, they may soon be beaten by GE as GE is the exclusive engine for the 777-200LR and 777-300ER.

That couldn't be farther from wrong.

RR hasn't been the market leaded on ther 777 for many years.
Current announced engine orders (in number of planes):
PW - 182
GE - 573
RR - 218

Go do a User Defined Search and to the math.

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/...definedselection.cfm&pageid=m15527
KPAE via KBVY
 
fewsolarge
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Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 42):
Which do you think is more lucrative, ATL-Dubai, ATL-Lagos. Or IAH-Dubai, IAH-Lagos?

Note, Emirates is coming to IAH this fall. Also note the many Weekly public charters on all Business Class MD-11s from IAH to Lagos, Launda etc.

The premium traffic generated from Houston is why British Airways serves both Gatwick and Heathrow from Houston, the only airport in the US BA flies to both Gatwick and Heathrow. And why Houston and not EWR is where CO will launch it's first Heathrow flights.

Houston is the center of premium travel between the US and the Gulf and West Africa, not Atlanta and not even New York.

I won't argue with that. But it doesn't invalidate Delta's service at ATL, where the hub size and the more Easterly position have their own, different advantages.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:49 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 23):
Israel is in the Middle East and CO has been flying twice daily 777s from EWR for 8-9 years, Kuwait is also in the Middle East and United is flying to Kuwait from IAD. So DL is far from being alone, they are just johnny come lately.

the point is that DL serves 2 points in the Middle East now and the number will grow..... regardless of what CO announces, DL has more airplanes available for expansion in the near term before CO can respond. UA is not even in the game - they are picking off a route here or there and taking down their Pacific network to do it.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 23):
The 787-9 has the longest range (thus far) of the 787 line, a range of 8,200-8,500nm.

But that doesn't mean if can necessarily carry the most revenue. The 777LR has the ability to carry 40 or more tons of cargo in addition to the passenger load.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 26):
DL left, CO stayed. That bought CO alot of good will from frequent travelers between the US and Israel.

Good will in the airline industry lasts about as long as the next sale fare. People fly based on schedules and fares - and for very frequent flyers, frequent flyer miles. Good will is nowhere near a purchase driver.

Quoting GlobalATL (Reply 32):
Seems like people are mis-reading what WorldTraveler is trying to say. I believe the point to be DL is making a large plan in DEVELOPING a middle east system, rather than UA & CO flying to just a couple airports "here and there".

BINGO... someone can read.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 35):
How does WT know that CO and UAL are not planning further expansion into the region, with CO acquiring 787s I think it's a safe bet to see new flights from IAH to the Gulf and West Africa to serve the oil market.

maybe but DL will have saturated the region by then. CO can't make routes work based on a few local markets.... and don't doubt that DL can and will price its IAH fares low enough to get the business if it means their routes will suffer.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 36):
"however the 777-200LR is not necessary. It's too heavy and too expensive for CO, the 787-9 can do the job more efficiently."

see above....also a heck of a lot more capable.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 42):
Which do you think is more lucrative, ATL-Dubai, ATL-Lagos. Or IAH-Dubai, IAH-Lagos?

seeing as 1 is operating, 1 has been announced, and the latter two are your pipe dreams, I'll go with numbers 1 and 2, Alex.
 
Danny
Posts: 3714
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:47 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 27):
and just a little note its 125 787s

I seriously doubt ILFC or any other lessor would like to place 125 or even 80 787s with one carrier. Particularly with a poor credit one.
 
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STT757
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:34 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 45):
, DL has more airplanes available for expansion in the near term before CO can respond.

DL has one more year left of their 767 advantage, after that they are at a disadvantage to operators who will be competing with 787s which can fly further and 27% more efficiently compared to a 767-300ER.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 45):
But that doesn't mean if can necessarily carry the most revenue. The 777LR has the ability to carry 40 or more tons of cargo in addition to the passenger load.

The 777 also cost significantly more and weighs significantly more than the 787, which is critical at airports like Narita where airlines are charged by the weight of the aircraft. The sales figures for 777-200LRs and A340-500s speak for themselves, operators like Qantas and Singapore after long deliberations closely followed here have decided to go with the 787 vs the 777-200LR.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4465
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RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:35 am

Quoting Mptpa (Reply 4):
They could lease say for 5 years till they get their own frames, or make a deal with ILFC on buy-leaseback which is better on the books than straight purchase (off balance sheet transaction).

This is probably the most likely theory, or perhaps do something like Frontier did with their Airbii, where a certain amount are owned and a certain amount are leased, with the option to buy.
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
worldtraveler
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Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Delta To Ilfc For The 787?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:46 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 47):
DL has one more year left of their 767 advantage, after that they are at a disadvantage to operators who will be competing with 787s which can fly further and 27% more efficiently compared to a 767-300ER.

Your figures are actually considerably inflated... and with winglets on the 767, the advantage might be about 10% which isn't insignificant but there are much bigger differences between two successions of current generation aircraft.
And you also fail to appreciate that the difference in capabilities only matters if DL has 787 operators directly competing with them on the same routes.... and in many cases, they won't. CO won't be deploying its 787s on the same types of routes DL is deploying its 767s on.... you for one have posted on dozens of threads about all the places CO will be flying its 787s to - and most are not cities where DL is serving or is rumored to serve.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 47):
The 777 also cost significantly more and weighs significantly more than the 787, which is critical at airports like Narita where airlines are charged by the weight of the aircraft.

You could fly Cessnas if you want to keep the weight down. The 777LR is not the end all and be all aircraft but it does have incredible range and incredible lift - two important factors for DL's expansion to Asia. The 787 simply does not offer the capabilities the 777LR has... Boeing wouldn't be offering both of them if they did.

The empty weight of the 777LR is fractionally higher than the 772ER. And as a number of poster have shown, the GE90 engines are more fuel efficient than previous generation engines. Given the enormous additional capabilities the 777LR has, the aircraft makes alot of sense.

And I'll remind you that just because an airplane like the 787 can fly 8000 miles doesn't mean that it can carry much. I think we will all find that the 787 will be no different than other airplanes in that on 8000 mile segments over the Pacific in the winter, you will be carrying no cargo and may even be taking payload restrictions. Manufacturers market and sell their planes based on normal conditions but we know full well that airlines will push the airplanes to their limits and will incur performance restrictions at the edge of the airplane's envelope. The 787 will not be exempt from that.

I know you are trying very hard to prove that the 777LR has no value because CO didn't order it. And just because DL hasn't ordered the 787 doesn't mean they won't.