Flying-Tiger
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ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:31 pm

Quote:
EADS unit Airbus is still under pressure from customers to redesign its A350 XWB model, Sueddeutsche Zeitung reported, citing Steve Udvar-Hazy, head of leasing firm ILFC.

'Teams of engineers are still working together to see what else can be changed,' Udvar-Hazy told the newspaper on the sidelines of an event in Seattle, WA, at which Airbus rival Boeing (nyse: BA - news - people )'s 787 model was being presented.

http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/afx/2007/07/12/afx3906390.html

1. One has seriously to ask what this man actually wants.
2. Airbus & airlines are working together to improve the design - really astonishing news... I would be seriously surprised if this WASN´T the case. I´m firmly expecting every potential customer to voice their wishes and ideas for changes to improve the overall design - that´s what the Design Advisory Groups are for... absolutely nothing new.
3. Appears that the airline / aircraft business is getting more and more "press-release" based.

4. Basically nothing new from Udvar-Hazy except for some more hot air...
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keesje
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:39 pm

 yawn 

Forbes obviously saw a lack of news / hits and decided to please their public / stir the pot a bit again with a yesterday (Sunday actually) quote.

Anyway design freeze still more then a year away, so it would be strange if nothing would be changed anymore.

Airbus has the advantage of looking at the 787 & take lessons learned from there.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
ap305
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redes

Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:48 pm

Mr.Hazy is one of the biggest buyers of Airbus aircraft,knows what he is talking about and I suspect he will get his way with the frame material issue.

Regards
ap305

[Edited 2007-07-12 11:58:55]
 
Lumberton
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:53 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 1):
Forbes obviously saw a lack of news / hits and decided to please their public / stir the pot a bit again with a yesterday (Sunday actually) quote.

I thought Mr. Udvar-Hazy mentioned this in an interview with James Wallace form the Seattle P-I and Forbes just picked up the story? If so, and Forbes picked it up, most likely you'll read about it again in other publications for the rest of the week. . . .
Many here simply can't accept the fact that Udvar-Hazy generally gets his way when dealing with the OEM's. In his own words, he sent the old A350 "to the cemetery". Does this latest version have a head stone waiting as well?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Danny
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:57 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
In his own words, he sent the old A350 "to the cemetery".

By placing firm order for it?
 
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mariner
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:02 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
In his own words, he sent the old A350 "to the cemetery".

I don't think that statement is anything of which to be proud.

I also find it odd that Qantas seems - from what I have read - to have a different view from Mr. Udvar Hazy. Certainly, Singapore has put their money where their mouth is, and others.

It is hard to work out what Mr. Udvar-Hazy is actually trying to achieve, and doing it so publicly. "Me Tarzan - Airbus hamburger"?

Because finally, why should Mr. Udvar-Hazy care? If he doesn't like the plane, he doesn't have to buy it. He can simply order a ton more 787's.

mariner
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Lumberton
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:08 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 4):
By placing firm order for it?

No one is saying he's consistent here, just rich and influential.  Wink

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
Because finally, why should Mr. Udvar-Hazy care? If he doesn't like the plane, he doesn't have to buy it. He can simply order a ton more 787's.

There are some people who just can't resist making a sound byte. SUH is definitely one of them.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
scouseflyer
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:09 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
I also find it odd that Qantas seems - from what I have read - to have a different view from Mr. Udvar Hazy. Certainly, Singapore has put their money where their mouth is, and others.

That's right QF said that the original 787 / XNB contest was a pretty close run thing - in a way it was good that they lost and the XWB ended up bein created.

Didn't SUH write soemthing on a $100 bill saying he'd buy 50 of them if AB made a new fuse on it and JL hung that on his wall - maybe it's time SUH put his money where his mouth was!
 
Lumberton
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:12 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 7):
Didn't SUH write soemthing on a $100 bill saying he'd buy 50 of them if AB made a new fuse on it and JL hung that on his wall - maybe it's time SUH put his money where his mouth was!

Well, if you watch "Godfather II", that C-note can mean a couple of things. . . .  Wink
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Mcmax
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:14 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
Because finally, why should Mr. Udvar-Hazy care? If he doesn't like the plane, he doesn't have to buy it. He can simply order a ton more 787's.

I would argue that Mr. Udvar-Hazy is looking at the long-term market. If Boeing is permitted to dominate this segment of the market, Boeing will have ultimate market-price control, and for ILFC, that means higher prices it would have to pay in the future for those planes. However, if Airbus can design (and ultimately, build) a credible aircraft which airlines want, it creates healthy competition for the market, thereby pressuring Boeing to keep their prices reasonable. For a healthy, competitive OEM market, a marginally-successful A350XWB which can attract some customers is better than a 787 monopoly for ILFC's purposes.

--Max
De minimis non curat lex tamen ego curao
 
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mariner
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:19 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 6):
There are some people who just can't resist making a sound byte. SUH is definitely one of them.

But his only sound bytes, these days and for some time, have been on the same subject. Or - the only ones I have seen.

I have puzzled about his motives since he first spat the dummy at Istat, and I am as puzzled now. If I could see what he might want to achieve then, I can't see it now.

Even his COO - Mr. Plueger - has appeared to be trying to douse the fires of this, or he did at Paris.

mariner
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keesje
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:23 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
Many here simply can't accept the fact that Udvar-Hazy generally gets his way when dealing with the OEM's.

He said exactly the same a month ago, http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/3466303
& obviously repeated it at the 787 ceremony.

Last yr he was happy with the XWB: http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2887367

Also last year shooting at the A350 he also threw mud at the Boeing 747-8i and 737NG. For some reason this did't really reach the headlines http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2687608
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Lumberton
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:37 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 11):
He said exactly the same a month ag



Quoting Keesje (Reply 11):
Last yr he was happy with the XWB



Quoting Keesje (Reply 11):
Also last year shooting at the A350 he also threw mud at the Boeing 747-8i and 737NG.



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 6):
No one is saying he's consistent here, just rich and influential. Wink
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
boeingbus
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:43 pm

The man is a power figure in the industry and evidently he is flexing his muscles so shareholders are Airbus listen.

The major problem is with the Airbus strategy and its not A350XWB fault per se. Airbus has no competitive offering for a long-haul lower capacity mid-size jet like the 787-8.

787-8 has been hugely successful and Leahey keeps kidding himself that Boeing has it wrong with the lower capacity 787 introduction compared to the A350.

This is a huge problem for second tier airlines who want range but do not need capacity...

Just my 2 cents!
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ual747-600
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:33 pm

It'll be interesting to see what Airbus does. It will be a major embarrassment for them to cancel another version of the A350 or make a major change that will significantly alter EIS. I would think the cost of development funds (external) would be affected.

UAL747-600
 
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Stitch
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:45 pm

Quoting McMax (Reply 9):
I would argue that Mr. Udvar-Hazy is looking at the long-term market. If Boeing is permitted to dominate this segment of the market, Boeing will have ultimate market-price control, and for ILFC, that means higher prices it would have to pay in the future for those planes. However, if Airbus can design (and ultimately, build) a credible aircraft which airlines want, it creates healthy competition for the market, thereby pressuring Boeing to keep their prices reasonable. For a healthy, competitive OEM market, a marginally-successful A350XWB which can attract some customers is better than a 787 monopoly for ILFC's purposes.

Well said.

I have heard airlines like Boeing's barrels because they offer lower maintenance and inspection. Airbus' panel approach will likely require more maintenance and inspection, but not in any significant way in the short to mid-term. Still, as a lessor, ILFC needs to take into account those costs over an airframe lifetime often much longer then their customer's lease terms. Since SQ seems to get rid of their planes every decade or so, it's a non-issue for them. They won't hold the planes long enough to see any real differences. Even an airline who hold the plane for two decades probably won't find maintenance and inspection costs to be a serious cost component sending them one way or the other.

But ILFC, GECAS, ALFACO and the others could conceivably be operating these planes for scores of years because of the longevity CFRP offers. And even when they are no longer "fit" for passenger service, that many of these firms also have freighter leasing arms means they could turn them into "787BCFs" or "A350ACFs" down the road and keep on operating them. So over four decades, the maintenance and inspection costs might very well become a serious cost component...

So Mr. Udvar-Hazy may be thinking that, over four decades, an A350 will cost him a noticeable (even if not necessarily an appreciable) amount more to operate than a 787 because of the differences in how they are assembled. That means higher minimum rents for the A350 which could hurt ILFC's ability to place the plane or require they accept less then desired profits due to lowering prices or having to underwrite some of the maintenance and inspection costs.
 
justloveplanes
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:47 pm

'Emirates and us are just the only ones who spoke up publicly,' Udvar-Hazy said.

'But many other airlines are unhappy with (Airbus's) plans, and are pushing Airbus to make changes.' SUH in the Forbes article

This sounds more like what SUH said at Paris before he met with Gallois. I wonder if Forbes is being creative here; using his rather bland comment about engineers still working on the plane - big surprise - and rehashing the Early Paris comments again. Forbes does not have the best history of communicating when it comes to Airbus/Boeing, they tend to be quite superficial in their reporting.

SUH could just be using the media to push for who knows what...same ol, same ol....
 
keesje
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 13):
The major problem is with the Airbus strategy and its not A350XWB fault per se. Airbus has no competitive offering for a long-haul lower capacity mid-size jet like the 787-8.



Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 13):
This is a huge problem for second tier airlines who want range but do not need capacity...

I think the market doesn't need all this range for the majority of flights. Light and efficient up to 250 seats < 4000nm seems an gab for both Boeing and Airbus. I think the 787 / 783 aren't covering this 767/A300/A310/757 market either. Maybe Airbe will come up with a mussled up A320,5 & A321,5.. http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2724857

Another sideline; 5 years ago I thought Airbus & Boeing would go for this market.
However it would be another 9 months before Boeing was forced to shelve the Sonic Cruiser & choose the Yellow Stone / 7e7 route, Airbus was napping. http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/773211
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
DAYflyer
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:03 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
Does this latest version have a head stone waiting as well?

Far from it. There are lots of things customers often want in an aircraft that makes it special for them, but never really make it into the design. These are more of a wish list than anything else.

More to the point: I thought that the design was frozen?
One Nation Under God
 
aminobwana
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:07 pm

AEROFAN comments and ask a very pertinent question, under a parallel topic which probably will be deleted:::

Quote:
]"I really don't understand this. This is like bizarro world. In the June 19th edition of Aviation Daily, we have that Parker guy from US saying that the new version of the A350 is fantastic. We also have Qatar and several airlines ordering the plane

Yet here we have a lessor and one of A major customers saying that the product is still not sophisticated enough and they want additional changes. And some people were scared to speak up.

So what's going on? Seems to me that some people who are running some airlines should be put out to pasture if they are hell bent on ordering a product that doesn't meet their requirements. Secondly, why are others being cowed into keeping silent. You would think A is the only game in town"

]

QR is not so enthusiastic and complains publicly regarding the lack of information by Airbus, aside issuing a parallel order for the B787

Nevertheless, it is quite understandable that airlines managers ordering or intending to order (as USAir) wish to explain to their shareholders or owners the technical benefits of spending these billions, whichever the reasons of the purchase may have been.

IF (and this being a capital one) they have ensured that the contract contains the needed safeguards as penalties and eventual walk-away conditions, and the reasons as pricing, or the desire not to allow the twin aisle business develop to a virtual monopoly, are legitime - even if not purely technical - , there is no reason to put these managers "out to pasture", as you write.

aminobwana
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:11 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 22):
QR is not so enthusiastic and complains publicly regarding the lack of information by Airbus, aside issuing a parallel order for the B787

Incorrect statement. The B787 order was placed as an UFO BEFORE the A350 firm order was signed.
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aminobwana
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:13 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 24):
QR is not so enthusiastic and complains publicly regarding the lack of information by Airbus, aside issuing a parallel order for the B787

Incorrect statement. The B787 order was placed as an UFO BEFORE the A350 firm order was signed

Did I mention the timing ??

aminobwana
 
Poitin
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redes

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:13 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Thread starter):
4. Basically nothing new from Udvar-Hazy except for some more hot air...

Hot air is what is you hear on A.net. When SUH speaks, it is cold hard cash.
Clearly, he has not kissed and made up with Airbus over the A350 XWB. And given QR grumblings, I would expect that we have not seen the definitive version of the XWB. While I expect that the panels will be retained, the LI-AL frame will go and be replaced by composite. SUH is clearly well informed about the short comings of the airframe.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 18):
I think the market doesn't need all this range for the majority of flights. Light and efficient up to 250 seats < 4000nm seems an gab for both Boeing and Airbus. I think the 787 / 783 aren't covering this 767/A300/A310/757 market either. Maybe Airbe will come up with a mussled up A320,5 & A321,5..

While I agree that very few airlines need 8,000 NM range, they want it just in case. Do not expect Boeing or Airbus to build new aircraft that will "only go" 5000 NM. The 787-3 is an exception because it is what the Japanese wanted for their market, and I doubt many will sell anywhere else. They only people interested in short range aircraft are the regionals, and even they are beginning to look at international routes.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
aminobwana
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 24):
QR is not so enthusiastic and complains publicly regarding the lack of information by Airbus, aside issuing a parallel order for the B787

Incorrect statement. The B787 order was placed as an UFO BEFORE the A350 firm order was signed

Did I mention the timing ??

aminobwana
 
Beaucaire
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:17 pm

Steven F Udvar-Hazy, refugee from the 1956 Hungarian uprising ,has apparently some issues with Airbus as a European Company .
I can see some form of inherent hatred against anything that is not American,since America is the country who took the "refugee" Hazy when he got out of the Hungarian uprising.To me it looks rather a psychological-psysical issue than a technical.
Let's face it-he wants a 787 clone but just bigger and better.Ultimately those companies who find the A350 a great tool to generate money will buy it -with or without Hasy ! The market dynamics will work in favour of the A350.Nobody denies the man a deep understanding of aircraft-technology -he 's a big spender on aircraft.But there are moments were the engineers who bred the machines have a better understanding of what is commercially viable and salable.
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sabenapilot
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:21 pm

What we have here is just another of those warmed over reports in which some old comments are put together to help substantiate a single and rather vague 'new' quote from UH on the fact ILFC is -not surprisingly- still working with Airbus to have the A350 defined more to their needs, thus pushing its final design details into a specific direction.

As everybody in the industry feels the A350 programme is a unique occasion to unexpectedly get a fabulous all new platform that will replace the 777 and compete with the top models of the 787, every likely future customer want this next decade's best plane to fit perfectly his own needs, based on their experiences from the past: SQ has some demands, QR has other things on their wish list for this plane, ER and its preference for range and size well known and ILFC too wants to push some aspects of the design a bit further as it feels these are an asset to them.

Contrary to the 787 which is frozen and thus available on a take-it-or-leave it basis alone, the A350 is still modifiable within its performance and technical specifications and it seems the future large customers of the plane are now constantly trying to make best use of this opportunity: some by ordering it right out (QR and SQ) and then counting on the fact they will gain more leverage over the design as such (see QR's comments on the A350 after they had ordered), others by doing exactly the opposite and delay their likely order till they have got their way... or at least the unambiguous confirmation the design is frozen to beyond the issue they would like to see included, at what point ILFC will have to look again at the big picture and decide whether the plans for the A350 match their global expectations for a 777 successor and 787 competitor and I don't doubt for a minute they will then step on board.

What we see happening here to the A350 is something is basically going on with all other planes which are still somewhat flexible in their final design:

EK on the 748i: not enough range
LH on the 748i: make it the same lenght as the 748F
QF on the 787: we'd like a bigger version, and it should be so and such
EK on the 787: bigger, more range
QF on the 748i: warmed over old technology
etc... etc...

Quoting Poitin (Reply 22):
Clearly, he has not kissed and made up with Airbus over the A350 XWB. And given QR grumblings, I would expect that we have not seen the definitive version of the XWB. While I expect that the panels will be retained, the LI-AL frame will go and be replaced by composite. SUH is clearly well informed about the short comings of the airframe.

I think we have moved beyond that point of a structural discussion some time ago and the centre of attention of the airlines now is more on details, fine tuning of the design so to speak: redundancy and durability and their cost effect on the total price vs the maintenance cost of the plane. As different customers have different ways of using a plane, so do their interests diverge, hence all of them trying to influence the final design to be as close to their personal interests as possible: expect it to end only when the A350 will be finally frozen, after which UH will finally shut up and put in an order for 30 at least.

[Edited 2007-07-12 15:43:22]
 
MD-90
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:28 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Thread starter):
1. One has seriously to ask what this man actually wants.

A barrel fuselage. Big grin
 
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clickhappy
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:29 pm

How the hell did a thread about a news story from Forbes about the A350 turn into a 747 and/or 787 bash? Unbelievable. The same people who complain over and over about how Airbus is treated are sitting here stiring the same tired old deabates over and over.

If Airbus has nothing to worry about then there really isn't much to discuss, is there?
 
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Stitch
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:30 pm

You sum up the situation well, Sabenapilot. All new aircraft programs go through their "rationalization" stage where the various customers put forward what they want to see incorporated into the design.

In the past, this was done "behind the scenes" with the airframe manufacturers themselves. Now, it's done out in the open through the press.

But it's always happened, so it should not be seen as a sign airlines don't like the A350 or the 787-10 just because they publicly say they want more or that they have not yet seen exactly what they want.
 
keesje
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting Poitin (Reply 23):
They only people interested in short range aircraft are the regionals, and even they are beginning to look at international routes

A new dedicated up to 250 seat /< 5000nm A300/767 sized aircraft would have an OEW of ~ 180k lb. (10% lighter then the seventies A300). The 783 weighs 223k lb

That's about the weight of 200 non-rev passengers with luggage been carried around on every ANA/JAL 783 fligh.. I'm not shocked the 787-3 isn't selling like hot cakes.

Intra Europe, Intra US, Intra Asia .. IMO there is a sizeable market. I think Airbus & Boeing lean towards a 150-250 seat NB replacement for this reason.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
aminobwana
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 25):
can see some form of inherent hatred against anything that is not American,since America is the country who took the "refugee" Hazy when he got out of the Hungarian uprising.To me it looks rather a psychological-psysical issue than a technical.

Sorry to doubt that !. A person who hates European because what the communist Soviets did to his EUROPEAN country and to him 50 years ago must have a low IQ and certainly incapable to achieve what Steve (Istvan!) U-Hazy had.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 25):
Let's face it-he wants a 787 clone but just bigger and better.

Seems reasonable !!

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 25):
But there are moments were the engineers who bred the machines have a better understanding of what is commercially viable and salable.

As an Engineer, I can assure that such, as long as working on design and similar tasks, have usually little feeling for what is commercially OK. Their problem is they get in love with their product !! In our case, the engineers additionally are constrained by political and financial decisions of their bosses !

aminobwana

[Edited 2007-07-12 15:39:54]
 
Danny
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:41 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 27):
How the hell did a thread about a news story from Forbes about the A350 turn into a 747 and/or 787 bash? Unbelievable.

Yes unbelievable, normally we only bash Airbus  Wink

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 13):
87-8 has been hugely successful and Leahey keeps kidding himself that Boeing has it wrong with the lower capacity 787 introduction compared to the A350.

Leahy is spot on with his comments on size of 787-8. It was design based on American market as a replacement for 767 and no doubt will do well on that market. For carriers in growing parts of the world like Middle East or Asia its not large enough. Among blue chip customers 789 is first choice.
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:41 pm

Quoting UAL747-600 (Reply 14):
It'll be interesting to see what Airbus does. It will be a major embarrassment for them to cancel another version of the A350 or make a major change that will significantly alter EIS. I would think the cost of development funds (external) would be affected.
That's why I believe they will NOT make any significant changes to their current design. The long term effects on their corporate image would be disastrous.

Quoting Danny (Reply 31):
Leahy is spot on with his comments on size of 787-8. It was design based on American market as a replacement for 767 and no doubt will do well on that market. For carriers in growing parts of the world like Middle East or Asia its not large enough. Among blue chip customers 789 is first choice.

"American market", like, hummm, Austrian flying 767's from JFK to Vienna? Or BA trans-Atlantic 767 service or it's Intra-European or middle Asia to Europe service, as examples? I'm sorry, but with all due respect, I still have trouble finding quotes from Mr. Leahy that would be "spot on". Clearly the 788 is aimed at the 767 replacement market. To limit it to North American routes only, as the statement you quoted implies, is marketing dribble, at best.
Sound bites, yes. Spin? You betcha....

[Edited 2007-07-12 15:56:03]
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:55 pm

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 25):
We see the same happening here on the A350 is something which is basically going on with all other planes which are still somewhat flexible in their final design:

EK on the 748i: not enough range
LH on the 748i: make it the same lenght as the 748F
QF on the 787: we'd like a bigger version, and it should be so and such
EK on the 787: bigger, more range
QF on the 748i: warmed over old technology

Well, not exactly the same. SUH is telling (true or not, this is what many saying, and we must assume that many of his potential customers tell him so!) that panels in a planes with EIS 2013 or later with panel technology are not state of the art, but your examples:
1)
EK on the 748i: not enough range: For the very particular needs of EK and most probably, if these needs are supported by the market, Boeing will comply and develop such
2)
make it the same lenght as the 748F: ???
3)
we'd like a bigger version, and it should be so and such: see 1)
4)
bigger, more range" see 1)
5)
warmed over old technology:True, and is marketed as such, which is only possible because in the meantime, A380 is old itself and even if warmed up, the performance data of the B748i is roughly equivalent

aminobwana
 
Poitin
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:57 pm

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 25):
I think we have moved beyond that point of a structural discussion some time ago and the centre of attention of the airlines now is more on details, fine tuning of the design so to spea

I seriously doubt it. I have spent too much time studying battery technology not to see the XWB as nothing more than the world's largest flashlight battery with that Li-Al frame, and so does SUH. Let's wait a while and see what happens, but I am sure it is not over at all.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 29):
A new dedicated up to 250 seat /< 5000nm A300/767 sized aircraft would have an OEW of ~ 180k lb. (10% lighter then the seventies A300). The 783 weighs 223k lb

Hey, I said I agree with you but the problem is the airlines want the range "just in case". They are investing many millions of dollars or euros and want flexibility, which in their mind is range. Take it up with them.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 29):
That's about the weight of 200 non-rev passengers with luggage been carried around on every ANA/JAL 783 fligh.. I'm not shocked the 787-3 isn't selling like hot cakes.

The 783 was never expected to sell well -- it was done to make the Japanese happy, and remember that ANA is the launch customer.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 24):
I can see some form of inherent hatred against anything that is not American,since America is the country who took the "refugee" Hazy when he got out of the Hungarian uprising.To me it looks rather a psychological-psysical issue than a technical.

Jezzus! We have Carl Jung contributing. As Freud once said "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." And sometimes a business decision is just a business decision. If SUH hates the Europeans so much, why does he buy all those Airbuses? He is the largest Airbus buyer.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:59 pm

Aminobwana, you were right it was deleted.  Smile and I didn't even know it until another poster pointed it out to me. So much for courtesy...

Quoting USAF336TFS, "That's why I believe they will NOT make any significant changes to their current design. The long term effects on their corporate image would be disastrous.

Wouldn't it also be a knock to their corporate image if they were to bring a product that is not as efficient to entry? Especially given the fact that this would be several years after its competitor's?
 
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:02 pm

Quoting Aerofan (Reply 35):
uoting USAF336TFS, "That's why I believe they will NOT make any significant changes to their current design. The long term effects on their corporate image would be disastrous.

Wouldn't it also be a knock to their corporate image if they were to bring a product that is not as efficient to entry? Especially given the fact that this would be several years after its competitor's?

If I'm not mistaken, that's why we're on version 4 or 5 of the A350 design....
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Poitin
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:06 pm

Quoting Aerofan (Reply 35):
Quoting USAF336TFS, "That's why I believe they will NOT make any significant changes to their current design. The long term effects on their corporate image would be disastrous.

Wouldn't it also be a knock to their corporate image if they were to bring a product that is not as efficient to entry? Especially given the fact that this would be several years after its competitor's?

Both statements are true. It will be interesting to see how Airbus resolves this dilemma. My guess is they will change the airframe, but that's because I understand men like SUH. I use to and still to do some degree work for one, and they always get their way in the end. SUH has not let go of this yet, for whatever reason.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
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clickhappy
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:10 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 24):
Steven F Udvar-Hazy, refugee from the 1956 Hungarian uprising ,has apparently some issues with Airbus as a European Company

Really? SUH is anti-European? You should be careful, because one could just as easily say:

Airbus, as a French/German company, is anti-Semitic, and they don't like doing business with SUH since he is Jewish.

See how stupid that sounds? Steven Hazy is not anti-European, and Airbus is not anti-Semitic. There are business discussions, and nothing more. Keep politics out of it.
 
aminobwana
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting Aerofan (Reply 35):
Wouldn't it also be a knock to their corporate image if they were to bring a product that is not as efficient to entry? Especially given the fact that this would be several years after its competitor's?

Obviously: but at this moment, Airbus must address its today problems, even if the solution could backfire in the future, so I assume that USAF336TFS is right !!

As for the repeated thread deletions, there are many similar cases and probably it would be cumbersome to advise all the posters.Therefore, I think that the mods in such cases should freeze and not delete threads

aminobwana
 
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:31 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 32):
Austrian flying 767's from JFK to Vienna? Or BA trans-Atlantic 767 service or it's Intra-European or middle Asia to Europe service, as examples?

Austrian lost their mind and they don't know what they are doing. For BA 767 is marginal in transatlantic flying where 777 is a workhorse. Certainly BA won't replace them with 788. Intra European routes? I don't see any 787 on that market at all and Boeing seems to agree as they won't even certify 783 in Europe.
 
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:44 pm

thought i read somewhere that A has already frozen the design of the 350. is this not the case then? well, it certainly will be interesting to see how this plays out.
 
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:00 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 34):
I seriously doubt it. I have spent too much time studying battery technology not to see the XWB as nothing more than the world's largest flashlight battery with that Li-Al frame, and so does SUH. Let's wait a while and see what happens, but I am sure it is not over at all.

Interesting comment, could you explain to the electrically challenged such as myself?
 
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
Because finally, why should Mr. Udvar-Hazy care? If he doesn't like the plane, he doesn't have to buy it. He can simply order a ton more 787's.

I don't think Airbus wants that to happen.  Yeah sure
 
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 24):
I can see some form of inherent hatred against anything that is not American,

 redflag ..is that why he's one of Airbus largest customers?

Quoting Danny (Reply 31):
Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 13):
87-8 has been hugely successful and Leahey keeps kidding himself that Boeing has it wrong with the lower capacity 787 introduction compared to the A350.

Leahy is spot on with his comments on size of 787-8. It was design based on American market as a replacement for 767 and no doubt will do well on that market. For carriers in growing parts of the world like Middle East or Asia its not large enough. Among blue chip customers 789 is first choice.

...sure, that's why the B788 is outselling the B789 by a factor of > 2:1 even with international carriers.... sarcastic 

Quoting Danny (Reply 40):

Austrian lost their mind and they don't know what they are doin

....sure..to the point where they will soon be profitable?
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 29):
Intra Europe, Intra US, Intra Asia .. IMO there is a sizeable market. I think Airbus & Boeing lean towards a 150-250 seat NB replacement for this reason.

I think both airlines will shoot for a 757-300-sized narrowbody with 4500-5000nm range at the top end of their 737RS/A320RS programs.

Quoting Danny (Reply 31):
Leahy is spot on with his comments on size of 787-8. It was design based on American market as a replacement for 767 and no doubt will do well on that market. For carriers in growing parts of the world like Middle East or Asia its not large enough. Among blue chip customers 789 is first choice.

Carriers around the world fly the 767...

And many of those carriers find the 787-8 to be a good choice as a replacement.

Quoting Aerofan (Reply 41):
thought i read somewhere that A has already frozen the design of the 350. is this not the case then? well, it certainly will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Final design freeze is not currently planned until October 2008.
 
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 24):
Steven F Udvar-Hazy, refugee from the 1956 Hungarian uprising ,has apparently some issues with Airbus as a European Company .
I can see some form of inherent hatred against anything that is not American,since America is the country who took the "refugee" Hazy when he got out of the Hungarian uprising.To me it looks rather a psychological-psysical issue than a technical.

Where in the heck is that coming from Beaucaire? The last time I checked, Mr. Hazy has bought several A320 family, A330/340 family and A380, has he not? You are talking about one of the most SUCCESSFUL businessmen in the commercial aircraft industry ever! Do you really think that your perceived bias on his part (NONSENSE) towards all things American vis a vis Boeing would really have served him well, if it were true? If you are going to write this kind of nonsense, try to keep it within something that you actually have a chance of knowing something about!!!  Angry
 
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 31):
Leahy is spot on with his comments on size of 787-8. It was design based on American market as a replacement for 767 and no doubt will do well on that market. For carriers in growing parts of the world like Middle East or Asia its not large enough. Among blue chip customers 789 is first choice.

The importance of the 787-8 is not really what you are looking at. There are 767's and 200 models of the A330 and A340 in service with many airlines that need replaced, not just in the United States. If you do not want to move up in capacity then the 787-8 is pretty much your only choice.

Considering that only 26 of 531 787-8's have been sold in the United States I would say your statement that it was based on the American Domestic market is quite dubious. As for the statement about Blue Chip airlines, whatever that means, Japan Airlines, All Nippon Airlines, Qantas, Northwest, Continental, Air Canada, and Virgin would presumably qualify and all but Virgin have ordered some 787-8's and have not ordered the A350. The A350 has as non 787 "blue-chip" customers Air Lingus and US Airways.

Where the 787-8 will be important is with the large, broad spectrum airlines. Those that have both long range international, medium range international and an extensive regional operation. Considering that some of the first planes destined for replacement by many carriers will be their 767's the 787-8 is a very well placed way to get the 787 in the door first giving Boeing a competitive advantage with larger 787 models should they choose to develop them.

Regardless I do not see how you can say the plane cannot work in Asia when it has sold hundreds of copies in Asia. Presuming US based Airlines order as suspected you will still probably see more 787-8's in service overseas than you will in the US market. Not to mention that model of the 787 will probably sell near or over 1000 frames alone. Certainly calling it wrong sized is misguided.

Now in 2013-2015 it will have run its course and done a lot of the replacement it was meant to do. It will still sell but in smaller numbers. At that point Boeing will either need a 787-10 and possibly a 787-11 or they will need a larger wide body for the market that will dominate the next decade, the 777/A340 replacement market.

But anyone who suggest they should have built a larger plane to enter service in 2008 needs to have their head examined. It would have been bad business and the plane would not have been successful because the market demand for those sizes will take off in the middle to end of the next decade.
 
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:49 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 31):
For carriers in growing parts of the world like Middle East or Asia its not large enough.

Where are ANA and JAL from?
 
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RE: ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign

Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:52 am

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 47):
There are 767's and 200 models of the A330 and A340 in service with many airlines that need replaced, not just in the United States. If you do not want to move up in capacity then the 787-8 is pretty much your only choice.

But the aviation market worldwide is growing fast therefore many carriers do want move up. Obviously that is not the case in the US.

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 47):
Considering that only 26 of 531 787-8's have been sold in the United States I would say your statement that it was based on the American Domestic market is quite dubious.

If you ignore the facts that don't work for you then yes. But American carriers don't buy new equipment because they cannot afford it not because they don't like 788.

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 47):
Certainly calling it wrong sized is misguided.

I said it is right sized for certain markets, not right for others.

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 47):
But anyone who suggest they should have built a larger plane to enter service in 2008 needs to have their head examined. It would have been bad business and the plane would not have been successful because the market demand for those sizes will take off in the middle to end of the next decade.

That is truly astonishing statement. You say that if SQ, EK and others were offered 20% more efficient 777 in 2008 they would say "no thanks"?