meta
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:35 am

Does KLM Need New Planes?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:42 pm

I was wondering if KLM is planning on buying any of the new planes such as 787, 747-8, A380, or A350 for their fleet. Don't they need to replace their old 747's and MD-11's? I know that they are receiving some 777-300ER's early next year, but besides that do they need any new planes. If so, which do you guys think KLM will add to their fleet. I checked through the forums and couldn't find an answer. I am sorry if somebody else already posted this.
 
User avatar
Heavierthanair
Posts: 830
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2000 11:20 pm

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:47 pm

G'day

This may answer your question

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKL1288292320070712?rpc=44

Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:48 pm

This has been discussed quite often recently. The MD11's will most likely stay untill 2012-2015, and the 77W's are for expansion. The early 744's will need replacement soon, most likely with more 77W's. The MD11's will probably be replaced by the 772 and a332 as KLM management stated they do not want to add another type for the time being (a350/787). But that can change of course. At the Paris airshow there was an order revealed for 73G's to replace the ageing 733's. They had also ordered some 738's a while ago for 733/734 replacement. KLM fleet renewal is an ongoing issue, as with most large airlines.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
AlitaliaMD11
Posts: 3704
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:19 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:49 pm

Quoting Meta (Thread starter):
I was wondering if KLM is planning on buying any of the new planes such as 787, 747-8, A380, or A350 for their fleet. Don't they need to replace their old 747's and MD-11's? I know that they are receiving some 777-300ER's early next year, but besides that do they need any new planes. If so, which do you guys think KLM will add to their fleet. I checked through the forums and couldn't find an answer. I am sorry if somebody else already posted thi

The A330-200 was ordered to replace the 767-300 and some of the MD-11 fleet and the 777-200 was also ordered to replace some of the MD-11 fleet. I could see more 777-300ER orders in the future to start replacing older 747-400s like the Combi aircraft.

Considering Air France-KLM operate both Airbus and Boeing I could see them possibly going for both the 787 and the A350 as well as possibly the 747-800. Air France has ordered the A380 but I don't see KLM following.
No Vueling No Party
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 3):
as well as possibly the 747-800. Air France has ordered the A380 but I don't see KLM following.

KLM will order neither. They will replace the pax 744's with 77W's and maybe in the future with Y3/a3510. They only have 5 full pax 744's and that's too few to order a different aircraft type for. Unless they can mix and match maintenence and usage with the AF examples, which is not likely in the near future IMHO, but later on... who knows...
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
kl911
Posts: 3979
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:04 am

And what will happen with the other 'older' 737's KL has? And what about the F70's and F100's?


KL911
 
KL577
Posts: 533
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:21 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting Meta (Thread starter):
I was wondering if KLM is planning on buying any of the new planes such as 787, 747-8, A380, or A350 for their fleet. Don't they need to replace their old 747's and MD-11's? I know that they are receiving some 777-300ER's early next year, but besides that do they need any new planes. If so, which do you guys think KLM will add to their fleet. I checked through the forums and couldn't find an answer. I am sorry if somebody else already posted this.

I think KLM just finished a major fleet renovation with the introduction of 15 B772 and 9 A332 (one more to come). KLM has stated that the 747-400s will serve 25 years in the fleet, and I guess as well the MD11, that means replacement for both types around 2015.
 
JRadier
Posts: 3943
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 3):
I could see more 777-300ER orders in the future to start replacing older 747-400s like the Combi aircraft.

With no 77W combi version available I don't think so!
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
meta
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:35 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting KL577 (Reply 6):
the 747-400s will serve 25 years in the fleet, and I guess as well the MD11

How old are the MD-11's now?
 
PlaneHunter
Posts: 6512
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:17 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:24 am

Quoting Meta (Reply 8):
How old are the MD-11's now?

The average fleet age is 12.4 years.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
flytuitravel
Posts: 489
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 2:46 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting Meta (Reply 8):
How old are the MD-11's now?

The oldest one, PH-KCA is 14, whilst the youngest, PH-KCK is just 10 so quite young really, younger than some of the 744s I beleive.


FLYTUITRAVEL.
 
keesje
Posts: 8610
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:43 am

KLM has a lot of open options for the A330 and 777 as well & will add new ones if required.

The F70/F100 is an issue. During the last 10 yrs many have been added from different airlines.

There are a lot of differences between individual aircraft, increasing costs & complexity.

Dispatch reliability has been an issue in recent times

Embraer was at Schiphol recently with an E190 but what I understand it failed to impress.

Obviously they want something better, but there isn't much available in the 80-130 seat segment..


Source: http://www.kaktusdigital.com/images/large/klm_lrj_02.jpg
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
kl911
Posts: 3979
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:57 am

KLM has 27 x 737-300/400's which are expensive in fuel and maintenance, why don't they order the 737-700 or the A319/320 for those 27 aircrafts as replacements? Or lease them, I'm sure it will be cheaper in the long run.



KL911
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:07 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 12):
why don't they order the 737-700 or the



Quoting Kappel (Reply 2):
At the Paris airshow there was an order revealed for 73G's to replace the ageing 733's. They had also ordered some 738's a while ago for 733/734 replacement
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
Joost
Posts: 1841
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:10 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 12):
why don't they order the 737-700 or the A319/320 for those 27 aircrafts as replacements?

They have ordered 7 + 7 options for the 737-700 at Le Bourget, as a first phase replacement of the 737-300.

Quoting JRadier (Reply 7):
With no 77W combi version available I don't think so!

Why not? As no more new combi aircraft are produced, there is no direct replacement for the 747-400 combi, but they do need to be replaced anyhow. So they need to find something else, that will have different specifications. I see the 747-400 combi's being replaced by 772ERs and 773ERs, also as the 773ER has more cargo space.

I always wonder why so many people think that every airline wants to replace aircraft by a newer aircraft with exactly the same seat count or cargo capacity. As an airline, you always have a limited choice in aircaft you can buy, and they always had. You cannot say whether the 74M for KLM is the perfect fit - maybe they are well able to sell some 20 more seats, or maybe they bargain the last 20 seats and have a better fit with a smaller aircraft.

We also saw KLM replacing 763s with 772s on some routes, including IAD. Apparantly, he 763 was actually too small for the route.
 
MEACEDAR
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:57 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:20 am

I think the MD-11's need to go. I think they should replace the rest of the MD-11's with the A332/3. The old 747s need to be replaced with some 773ERS and possibly add some 748s. I doubt that they are going for the A380. If they are maybe just 2 or 3, but not untill 2010-2012.

My 2 cents.
 
KL577
Posts: 533
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:21 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:47 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 14):
I always wonder why so many people think that every airline wants to replace aircraft by a newer aircraft with exactly the same seat count or cargo capacity. As an airline, you always have a limited choice in aircaft you can buy, and they always had. You cannot say whether the 74M for KLM is the perfect fit - maybe they are well able to sell some 20 more seats, or maybe they bargain the last 20 seats and have a better fit with a smaller aircraft.

And since AMS is slot restricted with relatively little room for growth with respect to the number of flights, KLM might want to grow more in capacity per flight.

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 15):
I think the MD-11's need to go. I think they should replace the rest of the MD-11's with the A332/3.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the A333 has a smaller range then an MD11. An A332 might fly the same destinations as MD11s currently do, but with less passengers. I think an Airbus A350-800 or B787-9 is a better replacement for the MD11
 
kl911
Posts: 3979
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:53 am

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 15):
I think the MD-11's need to go. I think they should replace the rest of the MD-11's with the A332/3. The old 747s need to be replaced with some 773ERS and possibly add some 748s. I doubt that they are going for the A380. If they are maybe just 2 or 3, but not untill 2010-2012.

The A380 will fit perfectly for flights to the Dutch Antilles and PBM but I can't think of an other route that could fill an A380.
 
bmacleod
Posts: 2453
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 3:10 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:13 am

With AF ordering the A380, it wouldn't make sense for KLM to order the A380. AF owns KLM and the A380 routes would be codeshared through KLM.

The 747-8 may fit into KLMs market, but the 77W is the better option for replacing their 744s.
The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
 
JRadier
Posts: 3943
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 14):

I always wonder why so many people think that every airline wants to replace aircraft by a newer aircraft with exactly the same seat count or cargo capacity. As an airline, you always have a limited choice in aircaft you can buy, and they always had. You cannot say whether the 74M for KLM is the perfect fit - maybe they are well able to sell some 20 more seats, or maybe they bargain the last 20 seats and have a better fit with a smaller aircraft.

because the Cargo on the maindeck is what makes the money with the 744 Combis. With a 77W being a lot larger in seatcount, and the 772 not carrying that amount of cargo, I don't see why they should replace them straight away?
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
747fan
Posts: 862
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:40 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:36 am

Quoting Meta (Reply 8):
How old are the MD-11's now?

www.airfleets.net/floteccie/KLM-active-md11.htm
They're middle-aged by aircraft standards, definitely not in need of replacing (although they're less efficient than the T7's, 3 engines compared to 2). The oldest ones were delivered in 1993 (14 years old), the newest one in 1997 (10 years old); one of them (PH-KCI) is owned by ILFC and flew with VASP for a few years, but KLM got it new in '95. Their oldest pax 744's were delivered in 1989, making them some of the older -400's around, but the 744's are relatively spread out in terms of age with their newest one being delivered in 2002. There are 25 pax 744's and and 3 -400ERF's that were delivered in '03 and '04.They'll (the pax birds) probably be gone within the next 5-7 years and be replaced by more 773's rather than a new fleet type. Theoretically, the MD11's could be kept for at least another 10 years as their oldest ones will hit 25 years in 2018; but they'll probably be gone before then. They aren't as nice on the inside as the 777's and lack PTV's in coach.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © David Larenas Herdoiza



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Marlo Plate - Iberian Spotters

 
migair54
Posts: 2101
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:49 am

i bet that we will see KLM operating both 350 and 787, currently they are operating 4 different types of widebodies, thats amazing for spotters, but for pilots, crews, dispatchers................ it has to be awful, lot of different types of everything.

KLM will reduce this fleet into 2 type 777 and 330 and in the future 787 and 350.

with only 4 passenger B747 i can see them ordering more 773, and for the combi, What´s exactly the configuration??

Do you think that a A380 combi could be real??
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:56 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 14):
We also saw KLM replacing 763s with 772s on some routes, including IAD. Apparantly, he 763 was actually too small for the route.

Actually, the B772 replaced the A332 to IAD, after the A332 replaced the B763 earlier. The B772 is doing fine to IAD right now, but it is feared that it will be a bit of overkill in the winter season. As such, KLM will send the MD11 to IAD next winter during the bottom season January - March.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 17):
The A380 will fit perfectly for flights to the Dutch Antilles and PBM but I can't think of an other route that could fill an A380.

The Dutch Antillean sectors have been served with the smaller MD11s lately, because of stiff competition on the routes, so you can leave those away. PBM is a high volume destination but tends to be very seasonal, so they wouldn't need an A380 for that either. Other high volume routes for KLM include NBO (year round because of the KQ connection), SFO (in summer), DEL (in winter), YYZ, GRU and KIX. Neither of those warrant the presence of the A380 though.

Quoting 747fan (Reply 20):
There are 25 pax 744's

There are just 22 pax 744s in the KLM fleet, 17 combi's and 5 full passenger versions. One of the combi's is sometimes used in full passenger configuration, although that is not currently the case.
 
Joost
Posts: 1841
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:56 am

Quoting JRadier (Reply 19):
I don't see why they should replace them straight away?

Me neither  Smile The MD-11s and the Fokkers are the first to be replaced. KLM have indicated before that they will shift towards full-freighters for outsized cargo, when the combi's will be leaving the fleet.
 
User avatar
deltadawg
Posts: 868
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:56 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:00 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 11):
Embraer was at Schiphol recently with an E190 but what I understand it failed to impress.

Obviously they want something better, but there isn't much available in the 80-130 seat segment..

Perhaps Bombardier should visit Schiphol! KLM and NW together could be the launch customers for the C-Series. I saw a thread earlier in the week about NW being interested in the C-Series as a possible replacement for their DC-9's. Perhaps KLM could go in with NW to replace their F70/100's?

Of course, this is predicated on Bombardier actually launching a C-Series but the size would be just about right, so it seems.
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
 
KL577
Posts: 533
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:21 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:00 am

Quoting MIgAiR54 (Reply 21):
i bet that we will see KLM operating both 350 and 787, currently they are operating 4 different types of widebodies, thats amazing for spotters, but for pilots, crews, dispatchers................ it has to be awful, lot of different types of everything.

But multiple types add flexibility to optimizing your route structure, i.e. matching demand more accurately with supply.
 
lamedianaranja
Posts: 1195
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:21 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:06 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 5):
And what will happen with the other 'older' 737's KL has?

New B737 have been ordered, see replies above, and this one is very new too:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Anders Olsen

I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
meta
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:35 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 11):

What exactly is that? I think I might have seen it before, but i forgot.
 
EA772LR
Posts: 1285
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:18 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:12 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 11):


Source: http://www.kaktusdigital.com/images/large/klm_lrj_02.jpg

Now that's a beautiful aircraft Keesje. Obviously a concept, but who designed it?? And where'd you find it??
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:14 pm

Quoting Meta (Thread starter):

Well, they are a partner with NW, so that might explain a lot.
 wink   duck 

As for a serious response to your question, as other's have pointed out, KLM's fleet isn't "young" but it's not old either. And they have been receiving new aircraft. But also, new aircraft are expensive, and it takes a while for the savings to catch up with the money spent on the new plane.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1978
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:34 pm

KL's fleet is not in dyer need of complete overhaul. The fleet is fairly modern, even if some aircraft are 10-15 years old. I for one would like to see the F100's, MD-11's, and 747's stay as long as possible. Soon everything will soon be twins and Fokkers are more and more of a novelty.

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 3):
The A330-200 was ordered to replace the 767-300 and some of the MD-11 fleet and the 777-200 was also ordered to replace some of the MD-11 fleet.

The A332's were delivered to replace the 763's, the 772's as expansion. None of the 10 strong MD-11 fleet has been replaced yet.

Quoting KL577 (Reply 16):
Correct me if I'm wrong but the A333 has a smaller range then an MD11. An A332 might fly the same destinations as MD11s currently do, but with less passengers.

You are correct, the MD-11 outperforms the A332/A333 in range and payload.

Quoting 747fan (Reply 20):
Theoretically, the MD11's could be kept for at least another 10 years as their oldest ones will hit 25 years in 2018; but they'll probably be gone before then. They aren't as nice on the inside as the 777's and lack PTV's in coach.

Absolutely, MD's are built to last. Will the Y cabin be refurbished and upgraded on the MD-11's or only the World Business Class?

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 22):
As such, KLM will send the MD11 to IAD next winter during the bottom season January - March.

Do you know this for a fact? This is good to know, thanks for sharing.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
trinxat
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:54 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:44 pm

Quoting KL577 (Reply 6):
KLM has stated that the 747-400s will serve 25 years in the fleet, and I guess as well the MD11, that means replacement for both types around 2015.

Indeed the 744s look as if they were much older, they are really worn, with sometimes broken seats, armrests, etc. On sectors like AMS-JFK where they are combined with 772 (with IFE in economy) they are really showing their limitations in terms of passenger experience.

I don't think KL will order any more 747 as far as combis are no longer permitted. The biggest aircraft they will have in the future is the 77W and given the seat arrangement it seems they are going to have, they will be focused at the leisure destinations IMHO

The replacement of the 74Ms will be done with existing 772 I believe, maybe with more frequencies
 
LifelinerOne
Posts: 1497
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:59 pm

There were some small blurbs the last days around KLM and it's fleet, coming from official and unofficial sources:

*AF-KLM is going to merge it's cargo operations into one. Air France already has the B777F on order, so expect a fleet of B777F's and B744F's.

*The B747 in the KLM fleet will be replaced by "smaller" aircraft in the order of more B777's (-200ER/300ER).

*The MD-11 are due out from 2015 onwards, being replaced by either the A330/B777 or the new B787/A350

* KLM will probably follow Air France with ordering E-Jets, after evaluating it's performance with AF regional

* Older B737's will be replaced by new B737's (-700 at first)

* AF-KLM will decide on the B787/A350 next year

Cheers!  wave 
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:01 pm

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 31):
The biggest aircraft they will have in the future is the 77W and given the seat arrangement it seems they are going to have, they will be focused at the leisure destinations IMHO

The first two B77Ws which will arrive in February and March next year will be deployed to YYZ, DXB, GRU and KIX, not exactly KLM's leisure destinations, for which the MD11 is the aircraft of choice.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 30):
Do you know this for a fact?

Yes, I do. The MD11 will replace the B772 on KL651/652 AMS IAD AMS as from Sunday, January 06.
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:22 pm

Quoting 747fan (Reply 20):
They aren't as nice on the inside as the 777's and lack PTV's in coach.

Not for long. They recently received a cabin update, with the AVOD ready to be installed. I think HB-IWC can give more info on when exactly, IIRC after the summer.

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 18):
AF owns KLM and the A380 routes would be codeshared through KLM.

Well sure, but for example, AF will fly the a380 to JFK, while KL also has 2 flights a day to JFK. So while you are right that the routes are codeshared, it's not that the a380 will be deployed on routes where KL doesn't fly anymore. Not sure if that's what you meant.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 17):
The A380 will fit perfectly for flights to the Dutch Antilles and PBM but I can't think of an other route that could fill an A380.

There are a few routes that can use the a380 for sure, as HB-IWC pointed out. But too few to warrant the purchase of a new (very small) subfleet. Not that I wouldn't mind seeing the a380 in KL coloures though (or the 748 for that matter, as KL has a very long association with the 747). Hey a different question. Which airlines have had the 747 in their fleet the longest? BA, JL? Or some other carrier? Maybe worth another thread?

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 24):
Perhaps KLM could go in with NW to replace their F70/100's?

IIRC KL management once said that the F70's might be replaced with turboporps in the future (ATR72/Q400) and the F100's by other jets. This may give BBD the edge as they can offer both in a package.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
keesje
Posts: 8610
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:15 pm

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 28):
Obviously a concept, but who designed it?? And where'd you find it??



Quoting Meta (Reply 27):
What exactly is that? I think I might have seen it before, but i forgot.

I melted together some research concepts, Henry Lam http://www.kaktusdigital.com/ who has a graphics studio down under created a great artist impression based on it.

More info (interior, backgrounds etc) : http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2934982/

(corr spelling..)

[Edited 2007-07-13 11:46:02]
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
plunaaircanada
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:27 pm

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:37 pm

off-topic but important  yell  everyone is talking how airlines are replacing the 747 but i havent been on one before, I want to lol  white  which route should I fly from Toronto?? I was thinking JFK-LHR but KLM flies it here too right? is it only during the summer?  worried 
(E)ngines (T)urning (O)r (P)assengers (S)wimming
 
jrowson
Posts: 323
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 7:18 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:09 pm

I recently flew AMS-SXM on the MD11 and both ways the aircraft we flew on had received the interior update with new seating and config changes. There are currently no ptv's but there is provision in the back of the seats to install these and the hardware boxes are already underneath the seats. It's a shame the legroom's a little tight but no worse than alot of the competition. On a sidenote, i have to say that the service we received was way better than AF on the same route.
James Rowson. Canonite and lover of all things L. JAR Photography.
 
JRadier
Posts: 3943
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:53 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 30):
the 772's as expansion.

Negative, the last few were expansion, but the first bunch were 743 (742SUD) replacements
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
PietPiloot
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:24 pm

As for Cityhopper, we will be flying the Fokker 70/100 till 2013. Until then the oldest 15 Fokker 100s will leave the fleet and will be replaced by the five Fokker 70s that are currently flying with Air France Regional and with 10 "other aircraft". These "other" aircraft will either be 10 younger Fokker 100s, 10 Embraer 190s or 10 CRJ1000s. Expect a decision about this subject within a month. If you want to put your money to an option, I would advise you to take option 2...
 
airbuster
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:43 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:15 pm

For KLC it will be the E-190 replacing the F100. First batch of 10 will start to be introduced starting in October 2008, the first aicraft planned to be replaced is PH-OFE if i remember correctly and they are receiving the first 3 from Air Regional orders wich will be converted to KLC orders.

rgds

AB
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
747fan
Posts: 862
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:40 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:37 pm

Quoting Kappel (Reply 34):
They recently received a cabin update, with the AVOD ready to be installed. I think HB-IWC can give more info on when exactly, IIRC after the summer.

Nice - glad to see KLM (along w/ Finnair) is keen on operating pax MD11's! bigthumbsup 
I assume the 744's won't get the cabin update w/ AVOD as the 773's will replace at least some of their older ones in the next few years.
 
JRadier
Posts: 3943
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:40 pm

Quoting Airbuster (Reply 40):
For KLC it will be the E-190 replacing the F100. First batch of 10 will start to be introduced starting in October 2008, the first aicraft planned to be replaced is PH-OFE if i remember correctly and they are receiving the first 3 from Air Regional orders wich will be converted to KLC orders.

rgds

AB

I've missed the press release for this one!
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
heathrow
Posts: 329
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:33 pm

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:45 pm

i think the cityhopper fokkers are the biggest problem right now. From my knowledge, these aircraft are unreliable, and they are quite old. I can see KL with CRJ's or other aircraft to replace these, but I think it does need to be handled before 2013.
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:47 am

Quoting 747fan (Reply 41):
I assume the 744's won't get the cabin update w/ AVOD as the 773's will replace at least some of their older ones in the next few years.

The 744's will indeed not receive the AVOD, but not because of replacement. The 77W's that have been ordered are for expansion, not replacement. The 744's will not receive AVOD due to weight issues. Apparantly especially the combi's are often operating near MTOW.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
airbuster
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:43 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting JRadier (Reply 42):
I've missed the press release for this one!

That's correct as it is not official outside of the KLC office yet. The annoucement will be in august.
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting Airbuster (Reply 40):
For KLC it will be the E-190 replacing the F100. First batch of 10 will start to be introduced starting in October 2008, the first aicraft planned to be replaced is PH-OFE if i remember correctly and they are receiving the first 3 from Air Regional orders wich will be converted to KLC orders.

I better get on the F70/F100 quick then, before they are gone. Time for a quick trip to Geneva or Zurich, perhaps Vienna. What punishment!! Big grin
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1978
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:36 am

Quoting Trinxat (Reply 31):
Indeed the 744s look as if they were much older, they are really worn, with sometimes broken seats, armrests, etc. On sectors like AMS-JFK where they are combined with 772 (with IFE in economy) they are really showing their limitations in terms of passenger experience.

I recently flew the "Hong Kong" aircraft, which is one of the older KL 74M's delivered in 1990 from ORD-AMS. The cabin was in very good condition and the seats were also very comfortable and not broken. Some aircraft are probably better than others.

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 32):
*The MD-11 are due out from 2015 onwards

It's long be talked about that the KL MD-11's will be phased out between 2012-2015. I'm glad to hear it's the latter if what you've heard is true.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 34):
IIRC KL management once said that the F70's might be replaced with turboporps in the future (ATR72/Q400) and the F100's by other jets.

That would be quite a downgrade for the F70 routes. Any idea who, if anyone, will pick up the Fokkers when they're replaced?

Quoting JRadier (Reply 38):
Negative, the last few were expansion, but the first bunch were 743 (742SUD) replacements

 checkmark  That's true, but I was relating it to the MD-11, which as you said the last batch have supplemented.

Quoting PietPiloot (Reply 39):
As for Cityhopper, we will be flying the Fokker 70/100 till 2013.

Do you, or anyone on here for that matter, know what the longest Cityhopper routes are for the F70 & F100?

Quoting Kappel (Reply 44):
The 744's will not receive AVOD due to weight issues. Apparantly especially the combi's are often operating near MTOW.

That does not surprise me about the MTOW. My last KL 74M flight used almost all of the runway on take-off from ORD.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18858
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:48 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 47):
Do you, or anyone on here for that matter, know what the longest Cityhopper routes are for the F70 & F100?

AMS-TLL is probably one of the longest (797 naut. mi.).
 
airbuster
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:43 am

RE: Does KLM Need New Planes?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:04 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 47):
Quoting Kappel (Reply 34):IIRC KL management once said that the F70's might be replaced with turboporps in the future (ATR72/Q400) and the F100's by other jets.

That's the plan yes: F100-->E-190 and F50/F70--> a ATR/Dash 8 turboprop design

Quoting Kappel (Reply 46):
I better get on the F70/F100 quick then, before they are gone. Time for a quick trip to Geneva or Zurich, perhaps Vienna. What punishment!! 

VIE is only during the summer season and GVA and ZRH are nicer flights with my favorite being Geneva...got to love the approach down there. But there is no haste as the F70 will remain in the fleet for some years to come.
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!