skuertz
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:41 pm

Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:52 am

How often do things like this happen, a runway incursion?

http://www.ajc.com/business/content/...es/2007/07/12/0712biznearmiss.html
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2621
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:39 am

Runway incursions aren't all that uncommon, however, 100 feet is pretty close and is not usually the case in runway incursions. ORD has quite a bit that are always given plenty of media attention. But no, they're not that uncommon.

Jeremy
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
Posts: 1469
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2000 8:18 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:00 am

Me thinks the UA pilot(s) are in trouble. Whew! that was close.
 
NADC10Fan
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 5:03 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:33 pm

Interesting. I happened to catch one not too long ago myself, as I was on the ramp from south-bound I-95 to west-bound I-595. A CO 753 was on short final to 9L when I saw him suddenly go to an extreme nose-up attitude and start climbing and banking left. I wondered about it, and sure enough a few moments later I saw a SW 737NG lifting off. This was just last month.
TANSTAAFL!
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:44 pm

Quoting NADC10Fan (Reply 3):
A CO 753 was on short final to 9L when I saw him suddenly go to an extreme nose-up attitude and start climbing and banking left. I wondered about it, and sure enough a few moments later I saw a SW 737NG lifting off. This was just last month.

WOW you can't be serious, last month??  Smile

What you describe is a go around and done quite often!  

[Edited 2007-07-13 14:47:15]
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
D L X
Posts: 11697
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:07 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 4):
Quoting NADC10Fan (Reply 3):
A CO 753 was on short final to 9L when I saw him suddenly go to an extreme nose-up attitude and start climbing and banking left. I wondered about it, and sure enough a few moments later I saw a SW 737NG lifting off. This was just last month.

WOW you can't be serious, last month??

What you describe is a go around and done quite often!

Correct. Go to National in DC, and if you stick around for more than an hour or two, you're likely to see one. I saw 2 yesterday. I've even seen the same plane go around twice one day.
 
GlobalATL
Posts: 197
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:00 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:34 pm

I've been on a Comair flight into IAD (IAD & DCA are both in Virginia, btw) and had to go-a-round twice before landing on that foggy night. Looking at other pax seated next to me, we started to get a little bit spooked but the female Capt. took us home, safely.
TriStar BusinessElite FedEx AirTran Delta Air Lines oneworld SkyTeam JetBlue/jetBlue MAXjet SkyMiles Eos = good spelling
 
BigOrange
Posts: 2291
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:20 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:01 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 5):
Go to National in DC, and if you stick around for more than an hour or two, you're likely to see one

Go to Philly and stick around for a couple of hours you will see plenty go arounds because of the 27/35 intersection.
 
AviationAddict
Posts: 630
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:37 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:35 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 5):

Correct. Go to National in DC, and if you stick around for more than an hour or two, you're likely to see one. I saw 2 yesterday. I've even seen the same plane go around twice one day.

That's for sure, the controllers cut it pretty close down at DCA. If you spot for a few hours you're bound to see at least one go around or a plane abort a take off or something similar.




On a similar note, yesterday at work at BOS I saw an Aer Lingus A333 and a jetBlue E190 nearly collide on taxiway C as the two were turning onto C to head out to the active. The Aer Lingus bird was on Bravo and I imagine had the right of way and the E190 was on Alpha. The E190 started to turn first and nearly slammed into the side of Aer Lingus. It was pretty scary (at least for me, I had never seen such a close call) but no one else at work seemed to think it was a big deal.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:48 pm

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 7):
Go to Philly and stick around for a couple of hours you will see plenty go arounds because of the 27/35 intersection.

Shouldn't be too many at the intersection if they are using CRDA for the sequencing, but know what ya mean.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
SuseJ772
Posts: 670
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:55 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 5):

Correct. Go to National in DC, and if you stick around for more than an hour or two, you're likely to see one. I saw 2 yesterday. I've even seen the same plane go around twice one day.

I was in a DL plane that had to go around twice while trying to land at ATL back in 1998.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
Ttailsteve
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 4:40 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:17 am

About 3 years ago I was piloting a Cessna 172 from GNV to JAX (Jacksonville International). It was a pitch black night...probably around 8pm ish. I was cleared to land at JAX and had acknowledged the clearance and was on short final. The tower cleared a Delta flight that was holding short for take off ahead of me. The Delta 737 turned onto the active presumably without visually looking as I was very short final at this point with my landing lights and strobes on--no way to miss me. I immediately started a tight left turn and climbed at VX to avoid the 737 and radioed the tower I was making a 90 and going around and that I had been on short final. The controller came back and said "you've got plenty of time--oh no you don't--do what you need to to avoid the departing Delta" The Delta pilot radioed "Cessna confirm again you have us in sight and are going around--we're rolling now." After that the controller came back and said I was cleared to make my turn a 360 and land and "sorry for that". Then the Delta made a comment and before changing frequency said "anybody need to talk about that or are we good" I was already turning off the active at this point having landed and just double clicked my mic (signifies acknowledgement) and switched to ground to taxi without saying anything else

There were 3 military aircraft taking off from the field just prior to this occurrence. They used an extreme deck angle to climb out after take off the really looked pretty awesome like rockets. My passenger was completely enthralled with watching them and I assume this distracted everyone else as well as there wasn't really any other traffic at JAX that night that was over working the controllers.

Moral of the story--stay situationally aware at all times.
 
Arcrftlvr
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:30 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:32 am

Quoting GlobalATL (Reply 6):
I've been on a Comair flight into IAD (IAD & DCA are both in Virginia, btw) and had to go-a-round twice before landing on that foggy night. Looking at other pax seated next to me, we started to get a little bit spooked but the female Capt. took us home, safely.



Quoting SuseJ772 (Reply 10):
I was in a DL plane that had to go around twice while trying to land at ATL back in 1998.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but go-arounds are very common. It's like saying, 'one time I was on a flight and the tray table in front of me would lock into place.' It's not really significant.
 
D L X
Posts: 11697
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 8):
That's for sure, the controllers cut it pretty close down at DCA.

They REALLY do. I swear I've seen the landing plane hit the deck before the taking-off plane had left the ground before. Can't confirm it, but it sure looked that way. That's technically a runway incursion, right? But I've seen this multiple times.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:42 am

NTSB Identification: OPS07IA006A
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 121: Air Carrier operation of DELTA AIRLINES INC DFW BASE MAINTENANCE
Incident occurred Wednesday, July 11, 2007 in Fort Lauderdale, FL
Aircraft: Boeing 757-232, registration: N6714Q
Injuries: 172 Uninjured.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On July 11, 2007, at 1437 Eastern daylight time a runway incursion occurred at the Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood Airport, (FLL), Fort Lauderdale, Florida between United (UAL) flight 1544, an A-320 and Delta Airlines (DAL) flight 1489, a Boeing 757. The incident occurred in day visual flight rules conditions, visibility 10 miles, scattered clouds at 4,800 feet.

The FLL ground controller (GC) instructed UAL1544 to taxi to runway 9L via taxiways T7, D, and B. As the flight was taxiing on taxiway D near runway 9L, the tower local controller (LC) noticed the airplane was going too fast to hold short of the runway. LC told the GC to tell UAL to stop. The GC said "UAL 1544 stop, stop, stop". The crew stopped on runway 9L, 30 feet from the centerline.

DAL1489 was inbound for landing on runway 9L when LC determined that UAL1544 was not going to hold short of the runway. LC instructed DAL1489 to go around. When the crew received the instruction, the main landing gear was on the ground. According to the crew statement, they noted the urgency in the controller's voice so they knew they had to get the aircraft airborne. FAA reported DAL1489 flew over UAL1544 by less than 100 feet.

According to the FAA, the UAL crew stated they missed the turn onto taxiway B.

FLL air traffic control tower is not equipped with either AMASS or ASDE-X. All airport lighting was functioning normally.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
db373
Posts: 228
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:01 pm

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:56 am

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 12):
I'm not trying to be an ass, but go-arounds are very common. It's like saying, 'one time I was on a flight and the tray table in front of me would lock into place.' It's not really significant.

I'm fully aware that go-arounds happen every day, but I wouldn't call them common when you consider all the planes in this country that land without incident every day.
Keep Delta My Delta
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:00 am

Quoting Ttailsteve (Reply 11):
Moral of the story--stay situationally aware at all times.

Oh so very true.

However,

Quoting Ttailsteve (Reply 11):
just double clicked my mic (signifies acknowledgement)

this doesn't acknowledge a thing.....not one thing. I know what the intent is and that it is used often, I've used it as well right up until the time something goes wrong and a tape is replayed, then you have nothing to stand on.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
D L X
Posts: 11697
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:03 am

Quoting Db373 (Reply 15):
I'm fully aware that go-arounds happen every day, but I wouldn't call them common when you consider all the planes in this country that land without incident every day.

I think you can call anything common when you can predict when and where it will happen, as you can at DCA and other airports.
 
davidkunzVIE
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:32 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:58 am

Quote:
When a plane is on a runway without authorization, the FAA labels the incident as a "runway incursion."

Even with authorization.
DH3 DH4 CR1 CR2 CR7 CR9 F70 732 733 734 73G 738 752 762 763 772 742 743 319 320 321 333 343
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3944
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 13):
That's technically a runway incursion, right?

Technically it would be a separation error if the landing plane has crossed the threshold before the departing aircraft has departed and crossed the runway end unless you can determine distance from the landing threshold and use the 3,000'/4,500'/6,000' rule for the appropriate category of airplane.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
NADC10Fan
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 5:03 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdal

Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:10 am

Yes ... thanks ever so much, folks, for 'correcting' me on the go-around. I never would have guessed that's what the 753 was instructed to do ...  Yeah sure

But I've watched flights at FLL for forty years, and get to see this particular pattern most every day (depending upon wind direction) at a pretty high-traffic time (4:30pm Eastern, give or take 15 min.); and this is the first go-around I've seen like this. So what may be common at EWR and LGA and DCA isn't quite so much here, methinks.

More helpful would be to state what constitutes the difference between a 'normal' go-around and a runway incursion. Must both a/c be physically occupying the runway at the same time for the latter? Or what? If not, then I have to think the 753 and 737NG were subject to one, because the 753 was just about to arrive at the threshold to 9L when he yanked and banked it to go around; and it was a short while before the 737NG came into view ...
TANSTAAFL!
 
db373
Posts: 228
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:01 pm

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:39 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 17):
I think you can call anything common when you can predict when and where it will happen, as you can at DCA and other airports.

But the article was referring to a case in Ft Lauderdale, not in DCA. And my statement was a blanket statement that covered all airports. Of course it occurs more often at some airports than at others, but as a whole, I wouldn't call it a common occurence.
Keep Delta My Delta
 
Arcrftlvr
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:30 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:47 am

Quoting Db373 (Reply 15):
but I wouldn't call them common

Why not? I agree that it's not SOP, but it still happens often.
 
skuertz
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:41 pm

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:50 am

Well thanks for all the responses!
 
User avatar
yellowtail
Posts: 3749
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:46 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 14):
DAL1489 was inbound for landing on runway 9L when LC determined that UAL1544 was not going to hold short of the runway. LC instructed DAL1489 to go around. When the crew received the instruction, the main landing gear was on the ground. According to the crew statement, they noted the urgency in the controller's voice so they knew they had to get the aircraft airborne. FAA reported DAL1489 flew over UAL1544 by less than 100 feet.


I am also sure that the crew were happy they had the 75 Rocketship Power to call on too...
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
Ttailsteve
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 4:40 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 16):
this doesn't acknowledge a thing.....not one thing. I know what the intent is and that it is used often, I've used it as well right up until the time something goes wrong and a tape is replayed, then you have nothing to stand on.

I agree its not "standard" radio protocal. However, in this case it was my intent not to get into a discussion about what I considered to be a relativly minor incident. I wanted to change to the ground freq and taxi to the FBO and the Delta guys needed to change freqs on their way to whereever, Additionally, there are many sayings that pilots routinly use that are not what you may call standard radio protocal. WILCO comes to mind.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:29 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 13):
Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 8):That's for sure, the controllers cut it pretty close down at DCA.
They REALLY do. I swear I've seen the landing plane hit the deck before the taking-off plane had left the ground before. Can't confirm it, but it sure looked that way. That's technically a runway incursion, right? But I've seen this multiple times.

So have I. If the landing plane isn't touching down before the departing plane is airborne, it's damn close.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
3201
Posts: 813
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 4:16 pm

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:39 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 14):
According to the crew statement, they noted the urgency in the controller's voice so they knew they had to get the aircraft airborne.

Mrs. 01 told me she heard this clip on the radio news and was amazed at how calm the controller sounded. Very cool that "calm" to a lay person can be "urgency" to flight crew.
7 hours aint long-haul
 
CruzinAltitude
Posts: 408
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 5:02 pm

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:54 am

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 12):
I'm not trying to be an ass, but go-arounds are very common. It's like saying, 'one time I was on a flight and the tray table in front of me would lock into place.' It's not really significant.

You may not be trying to, but you've done a pretty good job of it.

I've flown 3 trips this year, and a couple in each of the previous two years. I was a res agent for UA in 99/00 and took at least 10 trips during my time with the company. In fact, in the course of my life that I can remember, I've probably been on 30 round trip flights, and not one time have I been in "go around" situation.

Being an aviation enthusiast I've seen a few, and I know why they are done. I don't think I would panic if I was in that situation, but I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't be a tad nervous. Airliners do not "go around" arbitrarily because the pilots want the experience. Airliners "go around" because some factor is not ideal to the safety of the landing. That UNDERSTANDABLY makes people nervous and would be "significant" for the common traveler.
 
Arcrftlvr
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:30 am

RE: Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale

Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:21 am

Quoting CruzinAltitude (Reply 28):
Airliners do not "go around" arbitrarily because the pilots want the experience. Airliners "go around" because some factor is not ideal to the safety of the landing. That UNDERSTANDABLY makes people nervous and would be "significant" for the common traveler.

I'm not sure what you are reading into my post, but I can assure you that I never once indicated that I'm not sensitive to the common traveler concerns. Hell, I can understand why a common traveler would get nervous in turbulence. Also, I never once mentioned go-arounds occur arbitrarily. Can you please point out in my post, where I mentioned that?

However, other posters on this thread have alluded to the fact that go-arounds are abnormal; which they are not. Obviously, if you only flew 3 times in the past year and 30 times in your whole life, you have significantly decreased your chances of encountering such a situation. A 1/30 chance of a go-around is very high and would signal a much larger issue, so I'm not surprised you never encountered this situation. Relative to all the a/c in the air at any given moment, go-arounds are fairly common. If you want to compare that to your measly 30 trips, then it's not worth arguing with you. In your 30 trips, have you even encountered wake turbulence? Maybe not, but does that mean it's uncommon? Absolutely not; its extremely common. My point being is that you hardly have any room to debate when you have only flown 30 times in your life and have nothing to base your argument on.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos