masseybrown
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CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:24 pm

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/

Scroll down about 6 stories to read the details.

Assuming this goes forward, CLE would be offering a fairly modest amount per flight (promotional cash and waived landing fees), little enough that it may not be much incentive. Still, they're trying; we'll see what it brings.
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:20 pm

The only airlines I could see adding service are WN, CO, and DL. CO could start service to additional destinations (SEA was mentioned), and DL and WN could add competition. WN is dropping their only PHX-CLE nonstop, so they probably won't add flights to the west coast (LAX, LAS, etc.). DL is building up LAX, and already flies LAX-CMH daily, so LAX-CLE would be a logical possibility.

CLE does have a tough time with F9 and FL to the south at CAK. F9 has 2x daily to DEN, and FL is starting to LAS soon.
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SANFan
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:29 pm

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 1):
CO could start service to additional destinations (SEA was mentioned),

CO currently op's a daily n/s to SEA. (Might be summer only.)

bb
 
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mbm3
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:20 pm

Perhaps this would be a good enticement for Virgin America?
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
 
surrenr
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:26 pm

Now if only CLE can get direct flights to Taipei so I don't have to spend ages transfering 4 times a year when I come back home to see the
 
masseybrown
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:05 am

I could see CO sucking up the whole pot of money. I wonder if the already-announced Paris flight qualifies?
 
highflier92660
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:58 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 5):
I could see CO sucking up the whole pot of money.

I often resist the temptation to post out of cynicism and the reality of Cleveland's track record. Even as Hopkins over the past decade as evolved into a regional jet airport, there are still those with thoughts of LH 744's and JAL dancing in their heads. As MasseyBrown has suggested, the more likely scenario is for CO to grab the money and in return CLE may get another ERJ flight to somewhere.
 
GoBlue
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:01 am

B6 here we come. A few dailies on E-190 from Boston, Washington and JFK will work nicely. Heck even MCO for a daily might work if the demand is there.

B6 could use the break and the money when opening new stations. However CO will not be a happy camper and make life miserable for B6's operations at EWR even though they are limited!
 
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STT757
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:36 am

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 1):
and already flies LAX-CMH daily, so LAX-CLE would be a logical possibility.

The difference is that there is no competition on the CMH-LAX route where CLE is a CO hub.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
fun2fly
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:37 am

Any idea when the routes would have to start by? That will affect the potential routes and applicants.

For CO, the seasonal to full-time support could apply to full time on SEA, SAN, and LGW. New CO routes could be CDG, PDX and maybe AMS, SLC.

For SFO, could be interesting. One daily and one seasonal does not cover the need. Suprised UAL never did this (no planes), but Virgin is out there looking for routes.
 
N231YE
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:54 am

Interesting...I hope some of it works, in addition to the $16 mil being thrown around for incentives, to persuade CO to choose CLE over IAH and EWR for extra flights, jobs, etc.
 
HPAEAA
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:37 am

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 1):
DL is building up LAX, and already flies LAX-CMH daily, so LAX-CLE would be a logical possibility.

DL's cutting that to 4x weekly.. and the city/ Local businesses put up some major cash to get that flight... CLE already has Multiple dailies on CO...

Quoting SANFan (Reply 2):
CO currently op's a daily n/s to SEA. (Might be summer only.)

Peak periods... Summer, Christmas... I think that's it...

I bet CO gets it... I wonder if they'll give it to carriers to reintroduce Mainline service and replace some of the RJs....
Why do I fly???
 
atlaaron
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:51 am

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 1):
WN is dropping their only PHX-CLE nonstop,

Were loads and yields that bad?

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 11):
DL's cutting that to 4x weekly

Again, I thought LAX-CMH started out very strong for DL . . . did it drop off that bad?
 
ncflyer
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:28 am

WN has hardly grown at all in their days at CLE, in fact I'll bet they offer fewer flights now than 10 years ago. PHL is starving for reasonably priced service and would be my hope.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:33 am

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 1):
DL is building up LAX, and already flies LAX-CMH daily, so LAX-CLE would be a logical possibility.

DL also offers CLE-SLC (flt# 899) 1x on mainline, so LAX would be a logical step. DL also serves CMH-SLC direct on mainline in addition to the obvious CVG flights (even though it is in KY, many still consider it OH) Not sure if AS would try CLE-SEA, but CO could make it work perhaps with an AS code-share.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Thread starter):
Assuming this goes forward, CLE would be offering a fairly modest amount per flight (promotional cash and waived landing fees), little enough that it may not be much incentive. Still, they're trying; we'll see what it brings.

CLE represents the biggest market in the northern tier of states between PHL and DTW. They are doing everything to avoid what happened at PIT where service swooned drastically even with the entry of WN.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:49 am

Quoting FUN2FLY (Reply 9):
For CO, the seasonal to full-time support could apply to full time on SEA, SAN, and LGW. New CO routes could be CDG, PDX and maybe AMS, SLC.

Don't quote me, but I think the DL CLE-SLC flight is a CO code-share.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
ncflyer
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:54 am

It is astounding how airlines have cut service to CLE-- yes I know every market is hit by the trend towards regionals but CLE has been slammed. Just noticed that AA is down to 5 daily eagles to ORD during the week. Whereas CMH is served by 10 and CVG 6? And CMH has 5 to DFW including several MD80s whereas CLE has 4 Eagles. Let the incentive money flow. DL only has 2 or 3 full size jets per day now in CLE too, they've really cut back.
 
ikramerica
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:01 pm

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 1):
and DL and WN could add competition

why exactly is it fair to bring in competitors on routes by offering them free landing while the one who's dedicated to serving the market already has to pay for the landing rights?

I could see them allowing a "match" where CO also doesn't have to pay fees, but otherwise, that's just stupid policy that will piss off your "hometown" airline.

Quoting Ncflyer (Reply 16):
It is astounding how airlines have cut service to CLE-- yes I know every market is hit by the trend towards regionals but CLE has been slammed

Unfortunately, states like Ohio are stagnant or shrinking while other areas of the country are dramatically growing. Further, CLE is not a major tourist destination.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Falcon84
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:09 pm

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 1):
CLE does have a tough time with F9 and FL to the south at CAK. F9 has 2x daily to DEN, and FL is starting to LAS soon.

Overall, flies in the ontment, nothing more. F9 and FL are bothersome to CLE, but nothing more. They can't match CO's route structure, and if you look at CO's loads on the routes F9/FL serve out of CAK, it isn't hurting them that much.

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 11):
I wonder if they'll give it to carriers to reintroduce Mainline service and replace some of the RJs....

And, coincidentally, CO adds 30 new mainline aircraft in the next two years.....
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
masseybrown
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:24 pm

Quoting Ncflyer (Reply 16):
Just noticed that AA is down to 5 daily eagles to ORD during the week.

I suspect that AA ran all those short-haul ORD-CLE RJ's just as a way to preserve ORD operations until they could find something more profitable to do. AA probably resisted cutting ORD ops lest the FAA hold them to a lower level; and so they "banked" frequencies on the CLE route, among others.

With 4 airlines all offering a bunch of CLE-ORD/MDW flights, I can't fault AA for scheduling bigger RJ's while cutting frequencies to a still-respectable 5 a day.

[edited in hopes of making better sense]

[Edited 2007-07-14 06:26:55]
 
highflier92660
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting Falcon84,reply=18 And, coincidentally, CO adds 30 new mainline aircraft in the next two years...:

That is welcome news indeed. I have a couple "hefty" relatives in Strongsville who, whenever they approach an ERJ, the pilots shudder and silently re-calculate "weight times arm equals moment."

[Edited 2007-07-14 17:13:10]
 
toltommy
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:50 am

Quoting Ncflyer (Reply 16):
Just noticed that AA is down to 5 daily eagles to ORD during the week. Whereas CMH is served by 10 and CVG 6?

Well, you've got to look at the entire picture.

CLE-ORD
AA 5x daily (all AE)
CO 8x daily (all COEX or COCONN)
UA 7x daily (5 mainline, 2 express)

CLE-MDW
WN 7x daily
CO 3x daily (all COEX or COCONN)


CMH-ORD
UA 7x daily (5 mainline, 2express)
AA 10x daily (all AE)

CMH-MDW
WN 7x daily

CVG-ORD
UA 5x daily (2 mainline, 3 express)
AA 6x daily (all AE)
DL 7x daily (all regional)

No CVG-MDW service

There are actually a lot more seats offered daily OVERALL in the CLE-CHI market. AA has wisely chosen to place assets elsewhere, rather than drive yield down to fill seats. AA likely gets a better yield overall in the CLE market. It's unlikely to see more AA service in CLE just because of the incentive.
 
Falcon84
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 21):
AA has wisely chosen to place assets elsewhere

Agreed. Until you start to see more mainline in that market, there's no reason for more seats there.

As for this money the city wants to give for expansion, it's probably a wise idea. CO will jump at the chance, to put in routes like CLE-SEA/SAN/PDX, maybe even HNL and AMS, if they're going to get paid for it.

It would also lead, I think, to lower-tier, if you will, expansion, on the RJ/turboprop level, with new markets to feed those flights, like ATW, DSM, ROA and others. They may not get the payment for those, but CO could very easily add even more routes, and really build the hub, with this offer.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
fun2fly
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:43 pm

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 21):
CLE-ORD
AA 5x daily (all AE)
CO 8x daily (all COEX or COCONN)
UA 7x daily (5 mainline, 2 express)

CLE-MDW
WN 7x daily
CO 3x daily (all COEX or COCONN)

Sure is different from the old days w/all CO on 737's and several UAL on DC10's. Where did all those pre 9-11 people go to every week?
 
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jetpixx
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:24 am

Is UA still running a 757 or two out of CLE? If so, then that is a lot of available seats. I'd like to see UA add LAX or SFO with this new incentive - or perhaps bump up their DEN service. UA has always been a big part of CLE.
 
joeman
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:07 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 22):
As for this money the city wants to give for expansion, it's probably a wise idea. CO will jump at the chance,

Between this latest incentive and the recently announced $16 million in grant/etc. offerings by the state for an expansion of the CLE hub I would definitely think so. Looks like the current administration is becoming quite progressive and airline friendly in an attempt to move CLE past stagnation.
 
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STT757
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:21 am

In the West for CO I could see SEA (year round), SAN (year round), PDX, ABQ, and YVR.

In the Southeast there are a slew of routes CO, COEX, CO Connection could launch from CLE.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
WesternA318
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:24 am

Quoting FUN2FLY (Reply 9):
New CO routes could be CDG, PDX and maybe AMS, SLC.

Now THAT would be nice, but didn't CO have service to CLE from SLC with ERJ's back before 9/11?
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
Falcon84
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:27 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 27):
Now THAT would be nice, but didn't CO have service to CLE from SLC with ERJ's back before 9/11?

I believe it was with a 735. DL started the route with an RJ a few years back, and it's now and MD-90.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
WesternA318
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:41 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 28):
I believe it was with a 735. DL started the route with an RJ a few years back, and it's now and MD-90.

SO CO could send a 735/733 to SLC from CLE...it seems there is that much traffic there...
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
fun2fly
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:18 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 29):
SO CO could send a 735/733 to SLC from CLE...it seems there is that much traffic there...

I think the route, due to DL's connections in the west, can handle the MD80 from DL and a 733/735 from CO especially since UAL decreased their DEN service as a feeder to west markets. There just aren't any AM connections to the west coast so CO could easily put a 9AM to SLC and do well.
 
Bridogger6
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:30 am

Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 12):
Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 1):
WN is dropping their only PHX-CLE nonstop,

Were loads and yields that bad?

Well yield must be horrible... the flights are always packed but HP/US about two months ago went from two to one daily nonstop on the PHX-CLE route....
 
pizzaandplanes
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:35 am

Technically cargo companies are airlines. Now what an incentive that would be for Fedex, UPS, etc.  Wink
A real man lands where he wants to
 
WesternA318
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:41 am

Quoting FUN2FLY (Reply 30):
I think the route, due to DL's connections in the west, can handle the MD80 from DL and a 733/735 from CO especially since UAL decreased their DEN service as a feeder to west markets. There just aren't any AM connections to the west coast so CO could easily put a 9AM to SLC and do well.

That's kinda where I was heading, lol...
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
masseybrown
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:14 pm

Quoting Joeman (Reply 25):
Looks like the current administration is becoming quite progressive

That "combat zone" for the Flats legislation was amazing to me.

Quoting Pizzaandplanes (Reply 32):
Technically cargo companies are airlines. Now what an incentive that would be for Fedex, UPS, etc.

The final legislation hasn't been released, but the article doesn't indicate any prohibition on cargo flights from qualifying for assistance. It doesn't seem aimed at cargo, however.

Since the article cited in my first post is getting harder to find, the basics of the proposal are as follows. For a commitment to run a new flight for at least 12 months or extend a seasonal flight for at least 18 months, CLE will spot airlines up to $40,000 for promotion and waive landing fees. CLE gets to pick which destinations qualify for the assistance.

The landing fee waiver is interesting. I wonder if that could put a 762 on the LGW route, come 2009 or so.
 
fun2fly
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RE: CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights

Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:33 pm

Quoting Bridogger6 (Reply 31):
Well yield must be horrible... the flights are always packed but HP/US about two months ago went from two to one daily nonstop on the PHX-CLE route....

Yeilds will definitely improve w/o WN in the picture. They were always offering the $99 each way and CO/HP matched. Nice for us travelers, but I could never figure out how WN made money since they offered a lot more seats at that price vs. CO and HP who had fewer and some business class fares to fall back on for higher RASM. Certainly this helps CO keep in place the 3rd daily flight now that only one HP direct is the competition.

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