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TWA1985
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Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Service!

Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:01 am

He everyone,

I know I just started another post on Britt and Rockford, but I have to share this...

I just got an OAG from June, 1985 that shows :

Frontier 667
MKE-RFD
5:00 pm- 5:32 pm
Boeing 737-200
Snack

The snack service is what amazes me... How in the world did they serve all those passengers in what had to be a 20 minute flight?

Did anyone take this flight? Did the FA's finish the service in time? Was this just a typo? Anyone ever been on a similar flight, in terms of flight time, with food service?

Thanks,

TWA1985
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N62NA
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RE: Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Service!

Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:20 am

Probably just a beverage service.

I've been on flights here in the USA and also in Europe where the flight has been so short, that the beverage service only gets half way back before they have to stow everything for landing.
 
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TWA1985
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RE: Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Service!

Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:41 am

No, I doubt this was just a beverage service since flights with Beverage service did not include the "S" for snack.

TWA1985
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RandyWaldron
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RE: Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Service!

Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:05 am

Wow! This got you really excited! However, I doubt they served a snack.
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EXAAUADL
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RE: Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Service!

Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:09 am

FL had box snacks they use to give out upon boarding like AA's bistro. However this was only after the PE merger
 
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knope2001
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RE: Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Service!

Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:23 am

That's almost certainly a mistake in how it was filed or printed. The flight was tagged to/from Denver, and if I recall correctly it was a ruond robin DEN-MKE-RFD-DEN flight. The 32 minute gate-to-gate time just isn't enough to do much of anything.

So-called "round robin" flight sometimes led to odd typos and computer-related oddities. If Frontier used Flt 667 for all three legs of DEN-MKE-RFD-MKE, that flight number departed DEN before it arrived DEN, which (if you think about it) is the opposite of how a normal multi-stop thru flight works such as DSM-DEN-PHX, where that flight number arrives DEN before it leaves DEN. This quirk sometimes lead to strange things showing up in various airline timetables.

Even worse was when a round robin like DEN-MKE-RFD-MKE used two flight numbers, such as #975 DEN-MKE-RFD and #667 MKE-RFD-DEN. In that circumstance, the flight between MKE and RFD would in a sense operate as both #975 and as #667. Again, odd results in schedules and timetables sometimes came of this.

Just speculation, but either of these might have led that MKE-RFD flight to show the Snack that was undoubtedly served either on DEN-MKE or RFD-DEN.
 
sea2pdx
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RE: Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Service!

Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:55 am

I have no idea how many pax a 737-200 carried, but I assume it was in the 110 range? Plus or minus? So, three flight attendants for that. For the record, one QX flight attendant will serve up to 37 passengers on the 25-30 minute runway to runway EUG-PDX flight. Some of them even do a full service - beer, wine, beverages, and a snack. I remember sitting next to a non-rev (retired F/A) on one of these flights once. She was amazed that the flight attendant was going to do a full service. I assured her this was the norm. Pales in comparison to the Mesa flight I had back in May from ORD to DSM. After boarding on-time, only to discover our FO wasn't even on the ground, nor was he going to be anytime soon, we sat there for over an hour. The Captain was nice enough to offer up the F/A's service should we request it, but it wasn't going to be given out. After we took off, with *maybe* 40 pax on board, the flight attendant proceded to inform us that due to the short duration of the flight (46 minutes), she was unable to provide any service whatsoever. (It would seem that would really cut into her US Magazine time). Now granted, I don't ever expect any kind of service on any flight I'm on, whether I'm non-rev or not, it just seems that its a gesture of your appreciation towards your passengers. To not even offer water juice or coffee on a 46 minute flight to 40 or less passengers just seems lazy.  twocents 
 
malaysia
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RE: Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Service!

Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:47 am

PG has a snack service such as a marble cake, nuts and tea for a 25 minute ATR flight (outside US) plus a papaya salad on the continuing 45 minute flight.

I am sure back then in those days, it was a snack service on Fronteir with something other than nuts.
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knope2001
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RE: Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Service!

Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:47 am

For what it's worth, I flew Frontier MKE-DEN-SCK-OAK, in May of 1985, and while there was snack service on MKE-DEN and DEN-SCK, but on the short hop from Stockton to Oakland, neither beverages nor a snack.
 
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TWA1985
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RE: Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Service!

Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:51 am

Starting this thread got me thinking and I poured over all my timetables and discovered that Northwest Orient served a snack between Madison and Chicago- a very short flight as well (about 35 minutes gate to gate).

In-fact, the timetable said a deluxe snack was served since it was during traditional meal times (Breakfast in this case).

NWO also served a full Breakfast between ORD and MSP, DTW, and CLE- all fairly short flights. The meal flights to MSP used DC-10's and 747's in some cases.

Thanks,

TWA1985
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TWA1985
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RE: Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Service!

Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:41 pm

Any insight on this... My thought is that if NWO could do it, then FL could as well.

If they did, Kudos to them.
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knope2001
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RE: Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Service!

Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:37 am

Quoting TWA1985 (Reply 10):
Any insight on this... My thought is that if NWO could do it, then FL could as well.

If they did, Kudos to them.

I don't know that it is so much "could" do it as actually did it.

If you go back to before roughly 1975/1980 or so, meal and snack service was far more common. With fares regulated, onboard service (including meals) was a key way airlines differentiated themselves and were competitive. The mindset of meals was generally that if it is roughly mealtime, you need to serve something if at all possible. Even on a 150 mile hop. Airline timetables often showed a "continental breakfast" symbol on really short morning flights, wihch usually meant a quick pass with coffee, water, milk, and a sweet roll. I don't think the OAG had a symbol for that, so it sometimes appeard as a B for Breakfast or an S for Snack. With some exceptions, if you found food on a 100-150 mile hop in the old days, it was most likely a contnental breakfast (as descrived above) on an early-morning flight.


That changed pretty quickly in the late 70's as deregulation bloomed, because...

--fares trumped service as the primary point of competition

--expectations of passengers for onboard food dropped, especially as discounters popped up who served nothing and apparently didn't suffer a lack of passengers for minimal onboard service

--load factors climbed, making it hard to serve on short flights

--flight attendent staffing was increasingly cut to FAA-required minimums to save money, again making service more difficult to serve on short flights

--cost saving pressures led airlines to reduce catering and commissary bases. For NW to serve that snack (probably a continental breakfast) on an early-morning MSN-ORD flight, they needed to have catering in Madison.

--scheduling got more aggressive, and catering at outstatons was increasingly viewed as just something that unnecessarily slowed things down.

By the early 80's meals on short hops disappeared very quickly, and that's why I suspect the MKE-RFD notation on the ?OAG for a snack was probably a typo or programming glitch.

I probably have a Frontier timetable from around then, and if I can find it I'll see if they note a snack on this hop (like the OAG shows) as well as food on similar short Frontier hops at the time for a more definative answer one way or another.
 
indywa
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RE: Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Service!

Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting Sea2Pdx (Reply 6):
After we took off, with *maybe* 40 pax on board, the flight attendant proceded to inform us that due to the short duration of the flight (46 minutes), she was unable to provide any service whatsoever. (It would seem that would really cut into her US Magazine time). Now granted, I don't ever expect any kind of service on any flight I'm on, whether I'm non-rev or not, it just seems that its a gesture of your appreciation towards your passengers. To not even offer water juice or coffee on a 46 minute flight to 40 or less passengers just seems lazy.

This is all determined by the mainline codeshare airline (ie - UA). It's based on mileage between city pairs so you can't necessarily blame Mesa (did I just say that?!?!). HOWEVER - this route is deemed a beverage route, so maybe your particular FA was lazy. (Now THATS the Mesa we all know).
 
BNinMSY
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RE: Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Service!

Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:01 am

FL also use to serve a small bottle of wine with dinner service - quiet classy for the day.
When flying them between SHV-DFW (about a 28-35 minute flight) they served a snack and it was an oversized cinnamon roll and a beverage. So maybe in the afternoon it was a cold sandwich pre packaged.
I also remember the snack boxes they did on mid-day flights SHV-DFW-DEN .. .or was it SHV-OKC-DEN?

Ahhhhhh those were the days....
 
BNinMSY
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RE: Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Service!

Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:06 am

I just now recalled what FL served on the afternoon flight .. it was prepackaged cheese and crackers, with beverage service... and I think they sold the bottles of wine when their was no full meal service.

Their service was quiet nice - use to enjoy flying them!
 
bananaboy
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RE: Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Service!

Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:41 pm

LHR-MAN with BA/BD used to serve a sandwich etc + a beverage service, with a flight time of approx 25-35 mins.

Haven't flown the route for a while, so not sure if this is still the case.

LHR / LGW - JER with BA/BD is another v. short route where full "service" is offered (beverage + BOB with BD / beverage + meal/snack with BA)

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RE: Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Servi

Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:00 am

Snack service in 30 minutes isn't impossible on a 732. In the 80s I flew Transavia between LGW and AMS a number of times--in Business Class we got a full hot meal, and in Coach they served a sandwich bag, then came around with pots of coffee and tea, and had time to spare even with a full plane. The flights were rarely more than 35-40 minutes wheels up to wheels down, IIRC.
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ikramerica
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RE: Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Service!

Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:22 am

Quoting Malaysia (Reply 7):
PG has a snack service such as a marble cake, nuts and tea for a 25 minute ATR flight (outside US) plus a papaya salad on the continuing 45 minute flight.

HA hurries through the cabin and gives out POG and a snack type item on Kona to OGG, at leas they did when I flew it. That's a 717, and it's mostly full. The block time is 29 minutes.
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freshlove1
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RE: Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Service!

Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:43 am

You get beverage service on most MDT-PHL & PHL-MDT US DASH-8 flights. Its a 20 min flight but I have been on several that were full and the F/A managed to get beverage service to all the pax.
 
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RE: Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Service!

Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:38 pm

At WN we are required to do a full beverage service with peanuts/pretzels on ALL flights, even RSW-MCO. I worked ORF-BWI and BWI-PVD recently and the actually flight time was under 35mins and we did a full service.
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TWA1985
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RE: Frontier Flight 667 (MKE-RFD) With Snack Service!

Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:26 pm

Yeah, so if the flight attendants can manage to do a full beverage service today on short flights, who's to say that Frontier could not acomplish a snack service, perhaps with a few extra FA's onboard...


TWA1985
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