ikramerica
Posts: 13763
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:35 pm

In another thread, we got to discussing the chevrons on the 787 engine, and how they reduce noise.

This article explains the various elements of the Boeing QTD2 noise reduction program on the 77W run during 2005.

http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers...archive/2005/december/ts_sf07.html

Now the question is this:

When Boeing proposed the 7E7, it was a true 8Y plane. They drew it with engine chevrons, but they did not know the impact of those chevrons yet as the testing was not yet done on the flying test aircraft, and wouldn't be for some time.

Once Boeing completed this test program in 2005, they learned that chevrons + engine lining reduced noise so much that they could reduce the amount of insulation used in the fuselage to protect passengers from in flight engine noise. They determined it would reduce dB levels ahead of the engine by as much as 15 and behind the engines of 4-6 dB. They estimated 800 pounds of insulation could be removed.

It was not too long after the QTD2 tests that Boeing was able to offer the 787 at 9Y due to a suprise ability to thin out the 787 insulation. IIRC, it was attributed to the lack of condensation on the CFRP, but I now wonder if that is only part of the story, or possibly a ruse to obscure the genius of the real reason for most of the savings.

It seems to follow that the QTD2 program allowed Boeing to thin out the insulation on the jet by 600-800 pounds which was enough to gain 2" and widen the cabin, allowing for 9Y seating.

Once 9Y seating was offered, sales of the 787 took off and the A350, as proposed at that time, was no longer competitive. It was so dramatic a change, that Airbus was forced to redesign the A350 at great expense, billions of dollars, and offer an XWB version that can also fit 9Y seating.

So it would seem that the use of CFRP for weight and manufacturing reasons, and the introduction of noise abatement measures on the engines, had positive unintended consequences for Boeing, so much so that they allowed Boeing to redefine the CASM of the aircraft and send Airbus into a spiral of Leahy spin followed by a costly redesign that they are still struggling to recover from.

Quote:
"We see this technology making a big difference on the 787, the 747 Advanced, the next-generation single-aisle airplane, and all new generations of aircraft from here forward," says Walt Gillette, Boeing Commercial Airplanes vice president for 787 Engineering, Manufacturing, and Partner Alignment.

The impact on the 787 truly does seem to be dramatic, but not just in the ways the engineers first imagined...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:54 pm

I think that 9Y was the plan from day 1, though its possible that Boeing was planning on more exotic measures to make it happen if they needed to. More exotic insulation's, etc.

The engine noise I don't think would be a major factor in terms of the thickness of the insulation.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:14 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Thread starter):
QTD2

What in the heck does this stand for?
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Maersk737
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:37 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2):
Quoting Ikramerica (Thread starter):
QTD2

What in the heck does this stand for?

Quiet Turbo Diesel 2 edition ? Big grin

I would like to know too.

Cheers

Peter
I'm not proud to be a Viking, just thankfull
 
eelonghorn
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:39 pm

Quiet Technology Demonstrator. 2?

I'm Ron Burgundy? Goodnight.

[Edited 2007-07-15 09:41:31]

[Edited 2007-07-15 09:42:12]
 
plunaaircanada
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:27 pm

RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:45 pm

Quiet Technology Demonstrator Two

its called GoOgLiNg?


for more information visit:

http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers...archive/2005/december/ts_sf07.html lazy ppl lol u were one click away from thread starter posted link      


plunaaircanada   

[Edited 2007-07-15 09:51:04]
(E)ngines (T)urning (O)r (P)assengers (S)wimming
 
eelonghorn
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:47 pm

So what was qtd1?

Needless filler for message too short filter.
 
Maersk737
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:55 pm

Thanks

I did not look at the first picture the first time  Wink

Cheers

Peter
I'm not proud to be a Viking, just thankfull
 
Maersk737
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:12 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Thread starter):
Once 9Y seating was offered, sales of the 787 took off and the A350, as proposed at that time, was no longer competitive. It was so dramatic a change, that Airbus was forced to redesign the A350 at great expense, billions of dollars, and offer an XWB version that can also fit 9Y seating.

I think that Airbus was caught on the the wrong leg.
When they saw the great interest in the 787, Airbus needed to come up with something in a hurry.... It was the ill fated A350. Now that they have had the time, they have launched a competitive aircraft the A350XWB. If we can believe in the specs Airbus has given us.

The hole scenario have costed Airbus a great pile of dollars.


Cheers

Peter
I'm not proud to be a Viking, just thankfull
 
jbernie
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:17 pm

You know how car companies can easily go out and buy a competitors car so they can in effect rip it apart and find out how certain things are done, get good estimates on cost to build and all that, how on earth would A or B go out and get their hands on the product to do something like this? It isn't like they can throw a $100m or more around for a preview model  Smile

The article is quite an interesting read, always good to be able to read up on what both A & B are doing in making these types of improvements and even better to read that some of the technology is already being implimented.

It will be interesting to see if the Chevrons can be retrofitted to the various Boeing models and help some airports get a little extra operating time, places like SYD might be able to benifit in the early AM by bringing in some jets with this technology earlier than the others and get a better flow of passengers through customs etc just by getting an extra 15/30 mins of operating time.
 
Rheinbote
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:55 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Thread starter):
It was not too long after the QTD2 tests that Boeing was able to offer the 787 at 9Y due to a suprise ability to thin out the 787 insulation.

9Y layouts were present in 7E7 AD&S brochures from the outset, pre 2005, pre QTD2.

Quoting Ikramerica (Thread starter):
Once 9Y seating was offered, sales of the 787 took off

that's a myth, see above.

Quoting Ikramerica (Thread starter):
They estimated 800 pounds of insulation could be removed.

The Frontiers article sez 600lbs, where do the other 200lbs come from?  scratchchin 
 
bringiton
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:00 pm

I think that if we look carefully into airbus's own development programs , they would be R and D on quiet technology aswell so we cant say that boeing was pushing boundries in that arena while airbus was doing nothing !
 
olle
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:34 pm

Well, I consider this as normal... When you deliver a product you want the competiotion to now about it as late as possible in order to get an advatage... Regarding the A350 it is exactly what A is doing and B want them to tell it so they can answer with the B780 etc...
 
atmx2000
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:01 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Thread starter):
It seems to follow that the QTD2 program allowed Boeing to thin out the insulation on the jet by 600-800 pounds which was enough to gain 2" and widen the cabin, allowing for 9Y seating.

Even without 2" they would be able to offer 9Y and still have either seats or aisles wider than 10Y on the 777.

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 10):
9Y layouts were present in 7E7 AD&S brochures from the outset, pre 2005, pre QTD2.

Indeed, Air India chose the aircraft in early 2005 because of 9Y capabiliity.

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 10):
that's a myth, see above.



Quoting Olle (Reply 12):
When you deliver a product you want the competiotion to now about it as late as possible in order to get an advatage...

 checkmark 

Boeing never provided a cross sectional diagram early in program life, so it was difficult for some to understand how a plane just 4" wider could yield acceptable 9Y seating. The key issue was usable cabin width which is very dependent on the shape of the cabin wall and the vertical position of the cabin floor in the fuselage.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
Rheinbote
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:34 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 13):
Boeing never provided a cross sectional diagram early in program life,

Depends on what you rate as 'early in the program', AFAIK program start was December 2002?

First hand I'd say one airline was shown a cross sectional diagram in July 2003. Is that early enough? That probably wasn't the first airline receiving a briefing. Cabin width was quoted as 205.6" back then.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 13):
Even without 2" they would be able to offer 9Y...

   That's what they did.

[Edited 2007-07-15 19:39:38]
 
pygmalion
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 13):
Boeing never provided a cross sectional diagram early in program life, so it was difficult for some to understand how a plane just 4" wider could yield acceptable 9Y seating. The key issue was usable cabin width which is very dependent on the shape of the cabin wall and the vertical position of the cabin floor in the fuselage.

Much of the increase in usable width also came from the use of CFRP frames which are about half the depth of Al ones. The increased stiffness of the CFRP IMHO allowed Boeing to shrink the frame height and widen the interior of the cabin more than the increase in overall width would seem to allow.

This is one of the reasons beyond the corrosion that I am surprised that Airbus is using Al frames for the A350.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:09 am

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 14):

Depends on what you rate as 'early in the program', AFAIK program start was December 2002?

First hand I'd say one airline was shown a cross sectional diagram in July 2003. Is that early enough? That probably wasn't the first airline receiving a briefing. Cabin width was quoted as 205.6" back then.

I meant to say Boeing never publicly provided a cross section diagram until relatively late. They publicly explained how 9Y was possible and acceptable in late 2005. Obviously they were showing such information to airlines, but they probably were under NDA, as you didn't see much info being leaked publicly, though I am sure some airlines were passing information to Airbus. Really the only source of a scaled 787 cross sectional diagram during most of 2005 was widebodyphotog.

What prompted Boeing to start talking was probably the fact Airbus had realized it was an issue by the summer of 2005, and started making claims about being able to shave a bit here and there from cabin walls to make an acceptable 9Y configuration.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:26 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 16):
What prompted Boeing to start talking was probably the fact Airbus had realized it was an issue by the summer of 2005, and started making claims about being able to shave a bit here and there from cabin walls to make an acceptable 9Y configuration.

I think what Boeing said to the airlines that it will be able to do 9Y "better" than a 777 can do 10Y. When airlines told that to Airbus they were not worried since "better" in leahy's mind is some minor trivial difference unless stated otherwise, and the 777 isn't exactly a 10Y plane in actual service. Doing the math in a conventional way also leads you down the garden path that the 787 in 9Y isn't much better than charter.

So Airbus wasn't worried at all, and yet a minor decrease in wall width suddenly allows you to use bog standard 17.2" 3wide assemblies. Even more important, I think that the 787 was designed on that width to start, but it wasn't finalised until the engineers on the insualtion came back with a cost effective thin solution.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:36 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Thread starter):
When Boeing proposed the 7E7, it was a true 8Y plane.

Actually, the initial concept was 7-abreast but with a lower cargo hold reprofiled for dual LD3 containers.

Quoting Ikramerica (Thread starter):
Once 9Y seating was offered, sales of the 787 took off and the A350, as proposed at that time, was no longer competitive

I don't think that is/was the case. Even with 8-abreast economy seating, the 787-8 blows the 763ER and A332 out of water by a margin that isn't even funny. That is what guaranteed its success. If 9-abreast wasn't possible, I suspect it will still be selling incredibly well. Probably not 700+ orders before first flight, but still more than any widebody before it.

It is true that 9-abreast gives the 787 even better CASM, which I think obviously contributed to the "tipping point" when Airbus changed gears into the A350 XWB. Just recall Air India and the comments made by EK, SQ, IFLC.

Quoting Ikramerica (Thread starter):
IIRC, it was attributed to the lack of condensation on the CFRP, but I now wonder if that is only part of the story, or possibly a ruse to obscure the genius of the real reason for most of the savings.

There's also political considerations. The 777 was flying higher than ever when the 787 (then 7E7) got serious momentum as the 773ER testing data came back with wonderful results. The 787 team would have had a hard time pitching an 8 (but easily 9) abreast airplane internally with the 777 doing so well.
 
TIA
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:36 am

What a stupid title. Might as well ask if Boeing staying in business is costing Airbus billions. Of course innovation introduced by a competitor will force a company to follow suit if it wants to maintain its position in the market. No company would ever spend money in R&D if it didn't have to.
 
olle
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:22 am

In the same way as the A330 costed Boeing billions  Wink Without the A330 we would wtill have been flying B767....

Of course it saves the operators billions in the end but the people gaing most is.. you and me getting cheaper or with the fuel cost levels at least not more expensive flights....

When the 737 / 320 new generation arrives together with developing competition from actors like Ryan air this will be interesting for us as travelers...
 
AirSpare
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:42 am

Not to drag thisi thread back to the top but...

Did anyone notice the chevrons on the QTD2 are of uneven depth? I'll venture a guess that they are part of teh test bed to reduce harmonics.

The phased array microphones look like an awesome technology. Phased arrays should allow you to precisly point the mics in the direction you want, control gain, or create a "noise map". What a cool glimps into the R&D tech.

The wheel fairings should help on ice landings... Smile
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
hb88
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Thread starter):
The impact on the 787 truly does seem to be dramatic, but not just in the ways the engineers first imagined...

Yes, but probably not in the way the title of this thread suggests.

The A380 is itself an extremely quiet aircraft due to a large slew of innovations and developments derived from the nacelle/pylon group in A-FR. These can be reviewed in the more recent publications of the European patents for Airbus FR. Judging from the 380 test results, the 787 is unlikely have a complete monopoly on quiet operation.

In any case as another poster pointed out, this is a no-brainer. While one manufacturer does R&D, the other doesn't stand still  Wink
 
keesje
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:08 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Thread starter):
They drew it with engine chevrons, but they did not know the impact of those chevrons yet as the testing was not yet done on the flying test aircraft, and wouldn't be for some time.

The RR powered 787 has chevons too. GENX has them. Is anything preventing the engine OEM´s to use them on A350´s?

In the meantime in Europa people weren´t sitting on their hands. The A380 is a proof. Since then a QTD2 like programs like Silencer were undertaken.

[Edited 2007-07-16 00:12:03]
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
LimaNiner
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:18 am

Quoting EELonghorn (Reply 6):
So what was qtd1?

The 727 Whisperjet?  Wink
 
EA772LR
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:15 am

Maybe a stupid question, but aren't chevrons the zig-zag looking ends on the engine nacele?
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
Theoden
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:18 am

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 25):
Maybe a stupid question, but aren't chevrons the zig-zag looking ends on the engine nacele?

yes
Fear no darkness!
 
7cubed
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:48 am

So does the lack of insulation in the fuselage walls somewhat negate the additional width of the "XWB"? I guess if xwb= +5" of width it does...to some extent. Does that make the "XWB" designation a somewhat useless moniker?  stirthepot 
joe
 
jbernie
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:35 pm

Quoting TIA (Reply 19):
What a stupid title. Might as well ask if Boeing staying in business is costing Airbus billions. Of course innovation introduced by a competitor will force a company to follow suit if it wants to maintain its position in the market. No company would ever spend money in R&D if it didn't have to.

Not necessarily, not saying this is the best example of it, but if one company comes up with a different way of doing things that it just so much butter than anything else done before or being done, everyone is left to catch up and catch up fast because all the customers are demanding that technology now, not in 5 years.

If they had madce a relatively minor incremental change, say the gain was just 2% then it is nice but in the end it won't be something that really makes/breaks a deal. If it is 20 and the customers can save serious $$ over the life of the product then if you don't have it you can't compete.

Does this discovery that B has made mean that A has to suddenly spent money they weren't planning on spending to develop the same technology? Maybe not billions so to speak, as the technology is visible to some extent they already know what they are looking at as opposed to something that is "hidden" within the airframe, but because of the definate dramatic increase no doubt A will need to play catch up and make a big jump themselves as opposed to the incrimental increases they may have otherwise been able to do.
 
XT6Wagon
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Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:44 pm

Quoting Jbernie (Reply 28):
Does this discovery that B has made mean that A has to suddenly spent money they weren't planning on spending to develop the same technology? Maybe not billions so to speak, as the technology is visible to some extent they already know what they are looking at as opposed to something that is "hidden" within the airframe, but because of the definate dramatic increase no doubt A will need to play catch up and make a big jump themselves as opposed to the incrimental increases they may have otherwise been able to do.

Its not the technology in and of its self, its that the 787 sunk airbus's battleship... er I mean A350Mk 1 -> 4 costing airbus nearly $1 billion US in penalties to the customers for canceling thier orders. It also burned a year or two of R&D, marketing, and other resources at a cost we will likely never know.
 
pygmalion
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:34 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 23):
The RR powered 787 has chevons too. GENX has them. Is anything preventing the engine OEM´s to use them on A350´s?

The chevrons are on the thrust reversers not the engines. They are designed by Boeing not GE or RR. I woul not be at all surprised if Boeing locked up that piece of technology.
 
cricket
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:15 pm

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 30):
The chevrons are on the thrust reversers not the engines. They are designed by Boeing not GE or RR. I woul not be at all surprised if Boeing locked up that piece of technology.

Just like MDD did with the two winglets on either side of the nacelle. I wonder why Boeing didn't incorporate that once it took over MDD.
A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
 
SKA380
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:21 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Thread starter):
allowed Boeing to thin out the insulation on the jet by 600-800 pounds which was enough to gain 2" and widen the cabin, allowing for 9Y seating.

Being a cabin mechanic for the last 12 years, i dont see how this is possible as cabin with is only limited by the stringers.
Cabin sidewall panels are usually attached straight onto the stringers, and the space inbetween them where the insulation is held doesnt have much to do with cabin with. Even if you let the sidewall go into these spaces, the wall would still curve out again at every stringer..

Maybe im wrong, but i just dont see it as of now..

Leif
 
Rheinbote
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 16):
I meant to say Boeing never publicly provided a cross section diagram until relatively late.

The public is irrelevant in this context, as it is the airlines who actually buy the aircraft. There's no point in relating a sudden 'take-off' in 787 sales to an allegedly coinciding public 'reveal' of cross sections or 9Y capability. The 9Y capability was there from the outset (at 747 sardine standards though). Airlines were informed from the outset. Hence you can bet that Airbus was informed from the outset as well.
 
oldeuropean
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RE: Did Boeing QTD2 Program Cost Airbus Billions?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:56 am

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 30):
They are designed by Boeing not GE or RR. I woul not be at all surprised if Boeing locked up that piece of technology.

Haven't we had a thread in may about an An 124 with chevrons on the engines?:

An-124 With GenX-like Engine Chevrons (by Francoflier May 12 2007 in Civil Aviation)

Here she is, the new version An-124-100M-150:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Janne Laukkonen - FAP




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Teemu Heikkonen


Quote:
In order to improve the economical and operational efficiency of the AN-124, the project aims to significantly enhance the aircraft’s performance, notably increasing the freighter’s payload capacity from 120 to 150 tonnes and increasing resource prolongation from 60 and, later 80 flight hours. The aircraft’s flight control system will also undergo significant improvements.

The maximum flight distance, when carrying 120 tonnes payload, will be increased up to 5,000 km while the crew required onboard the aircraft will be reduced to four persons. The aircraft’s power-plant and engines will also be modified in compliance with the existing and future ICAO requirements.

Within the joint venture, Motor Sich and Progress Design Bureau will be in charge of the D-18T engine modification and production for the AN-124-100M-150. The D-18T 3 engine version will be upgraded into the D-18T 4 version for the new aircraft and the project will modify the reverse control and engine control systems using the FADEC system. Improvements in the fan and turbine design will increase thrust up to 25,000 kilogram-force while maintaining fuel consumption at the current level.

http://www.volga-dnepr.com/eng/presscentre/releases/?id=4455

Axel

[Edited 2007-07-16 21:21:45]
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