migair54
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Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 am

Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:57 am

Juan Jose Hidalgo is the president of Globalia Group, in an interview in Savia Magazine said that he has doubts about continue buying airbus planes because the delays.

UX would like to start operating the new planes by 2010 and Airbus, "Airbus has failed in our long haul planes because we want to star operating them by 2010".

UX currently operates 4 A332 and 2 more will join the company next spring, UX still operate some 767�s. "we might change again and go for B787"
 
krisyyz
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:16 am

I doubt that UX would be able to acquire any B787s by 2010, unless they approach ILFC.

KrisYYZ
 
Asturias
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:21 am

This is a very strange comment because there is no way Air Europa can buy B787s and have them delivered before 2012. At the earliest.

More than that, they would have to pay much higher price for the B787s than the A350s, because they are an A350 launch customer.

I have the feeling that sr Hidalgo has just come down with the same 'big mouth' CEO disease that seems to be plaguing the heads of many airlines these days.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
MEA-707
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:21 am

On this moment it won't make much difference anymore. Airbus is still grateful that Air Europa was the first airline to chalk up to the original A-350 and will for sure give them early deliveries and attractive pricing. With Boeing they will have to wait til 2011ish as well before slots become available, why bother to loose launch firesale pricing while the relatively small time difference 2011-2013 can easily be covered with some more temporary A-330s?
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:21 am

does anyone know what boeing's delivery calendar looks like. there are rumors - that make sense - that boeing keeps at least some delivery slots reserved for luring in new customers (a few early delivery slots to sweeten an order) and for big blue chips who have privately expressed interest but have not ordered yet?

also, does anyone know how many of the 787s on order by lessors have been spoken for yet?
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
wcs
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 4):
that boeing keeps at least some delivery slots reserved for luring in new customers

No offense to Air Europa, but Boeing is more likely to provide these potential slots, as far as they are real, to Blue Chips carriers. Racking up A350's launch customer is fine, but it is far more trendy to serve first AF, LH, AA, DL, for example!

My 2 cents
FLY SKYTEAM JETS
 
khobar
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:50 am

Perhaps this is where we can insert the boiler plate explanation that "they are likely just trying to get a better deal out of Airbus."

"We might change again and go for the 787. Then again, we might not change and just be happy with whatever we negotiated with Airbus. And who knows, maybe Airbus will be nice and hear our plea and give us an even better deal? Please?"
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:35 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 7):
"We might change again and go for the 787. Then again, we might not change and just be happy with whatever we negotiated with Airbus. And who knows, maybe Airbus will be nice and hear our plea and give us an even better deal? Please?"

Could be you are right, assuming Sr. Hidalgo is not a realistic Businessman. If he is, he would understand that if if he is able to get this way a price below the original launch price of the old A350 (or get other perks), immediately carriers which have not issued the firm orders, as USAir, SQ(?) and other will come back and request the same as condition to do it, also airlines which have an easy way out as QR could do the same.

Of course, his motivation could be different. Between other, could be he is not confident he will get the planes in 2013 and then, be really in a tough situation. And let be realistic ourselves. Even and precisely if Airbus is successfulo to be able to maintain their orders as booked in Paris, and considering that as John Leahy said the production of the first 18 months will be only 68 units, the pressue of far more important airlines which were also launch customers would relegate Air Europa biginning probably not before middle-end 2015

Nevertheless, if they are not able by a combination of leasing and purchasing B787, as LAN did an a larger scale, to get these timely, he will not be able to switch. The price would be an issue, buy not too much, because Boeing would be willing to sell a small No of frames as here cheap, to obtain such a psychological impact. And if he really only need B788 and not the bigger A358 he ordered, he will not spend any more.

regards

aminobwana
 
RobertS975
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:40 am

Quoting WCS (Reply 6):
No offense to Air Europa, but Boeing is more likely to provide these potential slots, as far as they are real, to Blue Chips carriers. Racking up A350's launch customer is fine, but it is far more trendy to serve first AF, LH, AA, DL, for example!

CO has a decent 787 order and already codeshares with Air Europa. Soon, UX will be a member of the Skyteam alliance. DL is widely expected to eventaully order the 787 in a big way. If UX wants to find some 787s to operate while awaiting their own order to fill, I am sure there are creative ways to make that happen.
 
azhobo
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:43 am

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 3):
On this moment it won't make much difference anymore. Airbus is still grateful that Air Europa was the first airline to chalk up to the original A-350 and will for sure give them early deliveries and attractive pricing. With Boeing they will have to wait til 2011ish as well before slots become available, why bother to loose launch firesale pricing while the relatively small time difference 2011-2013 can easily be covered with some more temporary A-330s?

There is much better chance for someone getting a 787 early than an a350. One, leasing companies can help fill the gap as they have gobbled up slots. Boeing could eventually up the delivery rates on 787. And at this point the 787 is more likely to be on schedule for EIS than the A350.

Which would you bank on if you wanted to get moving on upgrading your fleet with one of these two offerings?

HOBO
 
kbdude
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:52 am

Quoting MIgAiR54 (Thread starter):
UX would like to start operating the new planes by 2010 and Airbus, "Airbus has failed in our long haul planes because we want to star operating them by 2010".

UX currently operates 4 A332 and 2 more will join the company next spring, UX still operate some 767�s. "we might change again and go for B787"

Seems to me like nothing more than tactics by UX to squezze a better deal out of A in the A350 re-negotiation.
 
jimyvr
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:54 am

Quoting Kbdude (Reply 11):
Seems to me like nothing more than tactics by UX to squezze a better deal out of A in the A350 re-negotiation.

The airline resumed negotiations with Boeing for 787s when Airbus unveiled A350XWB.
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
bringiton
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:45 am

ILFC and other leasing companies have many 787 on orders maybe they can help them . However i see this as a tactic to get a better deal out of airbus , maybe some cheap A330's to make up for the 3-4 years !
 
aminobwana
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:18 pm

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 13):
maybe some cheap A330's to make up for the 3-4 years !

This would be one perk as I mentioned in my Reply 8. I wonder where from Airbus will bet so many (cheap or not) A 330 they should deliver to A330 customers.

aminobwana
 
Maersk737
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:31 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 13):
Quoting Bringiton (Reply 13):
maybe some cheap A330's to make up for the 3-4 years !

This would be one perk as I mentioned in my Reply 8. I wonder where from Airbus will bet so many (cheap or not) A 330 they should deliver to A330 customers.

Airbus haven't promised Hidalgo any A330' yet, as far as I know?

Maybe Airbus will be able to increase production of the A330, if necessary?

Cheers

Peter

[Edited 2007-07-16 13:32:28]
I'm not proud to be a Viking, just thankfull
 
EI321
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:07 pm

Odd comments indeed.


  • They were to take delivery of the 10 A350's from 2010 onwards..
  • By 2010 their A330's will be between and 2 and 4 years old. Not exactly antiques. The 767's are not exactly old either (will the two A330's on order replace some of the 767's?)
  • If they give up the A350 order they will loose both the deposits and launch customers discounts. They got a big discount from the old A350 launch, and are probably eligible to maintain those prices on the XWB.
 
Danny
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:11 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 15):
If they give up the A350 order they will loose both the deposits and launch customers discounts. They got a big discount from the old A350 launch, and are probably eligible to maintain those prices on the XWB.

Since they ordered the first A350 not the XWB it is actually Airbus who has to compensate them for not building it.

The whole comment sounds just like sour grapes after they committed to an aircraft which was later considered not good enough. I am sure though Boeing will throw 787s at max 90 million to score a PR victory. The only problem is 2013 delivery at the earliest unless they go to lessors.
 
aminobwana
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:31 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 15):
By 2010 their A330's will be between and 2 and 4 years old. Not exactly antiques. The 767's are not exactly old either (will the two A330's on order replace some of the 767's?)



Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
The whole comment sounds just like sour grapes after they committed to an aircraft which was later considered not good enough. I am sure though Boeing will throw 787s at max 90 million to score a PR victory. The only problem is 2013 delivery at the earliest unless they go to lessors

 checkmark 

Do you think really these are aditional to the A330s, as it makes no sense for a not in cash swimming airline to substitute nearly new aircrafts ??

aminobwana
 
User avatar
autothrust
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:57 pm

For me it sounds like Air Europa wants make pressure to Airbus to get the new A350XBW at lower price and earlier delivery.

 twocents 
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
bringiton
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:09 pm

Given there timeframe of order (one of the launch customers) and the fact that they had ordered the less advanced and less expensive varient , i would find it to be quite stupid to change and go for the 787 . They are getting one heck of a price , one great aircraft what else can they ask for. No matter how low boeing prices them the 787 it still wont be able to match what airbus has to offer given that they are paying for the older less advanced varient and getting one spanking jet totally in a different leauge . Probably an effort to get there hands on some A330's for good price !
 
Morvious
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:10 am

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 19):
Given there timeframe of order (one of the launch customers) and the fact that they had ordered the less advanced and less expensive varient , i would find it to be quite stupid to change and go for the 787 . They are getting one heck of a price , one great aircraft what else can they ask for. No matter how low boeing prices them the 787 it still wont be able to match what airbus has to offer given that they are paying for the older less advanced varient and getting one spanking jet totally in a different leauge . Probably an effort to get there hands on some A330's for good price !

Exactly

Also, it is already a very long time ago since Airbus cancled the original A350 project for a new one. Why waiting this long if you are looking for 2010 slots.
But it wouldn't suprice me if an airliner goes this way though.
have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
 
jacobin777
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:20 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
I am sure though Boeing will throw 787s at max 90 million to score a PR victory.

..sure, so like Airbus they can wreck their profit margins.. stirthepot 

especially given the large backlog of planes and the fact they have some pricing power.....

..and if you don't believe me on the profit margins, you can find out for yourself..its in the public domain... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
aminobwana
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:34 am

Here is shown that Air Europa is negotiating with Boeing regarding the subsitution of the A350 for B787, and even if this does not mean a decision, it is more behind it than a mere declaration of Mr. Hidalgo to pressure Airbus. .

http://www.fleetbuzz.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=10139
Boeing Pushes 787 At Air Europa
Feb 6 2007, 04:43 PM

aminobwana
 
EI321
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:40 am

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 19):
No matter how low boeing prices them the 787 it still wont be able to match what airbus has to offer given that they are paying for the older less advanced varient and getting one spanking jet totally in a different leauge . Probably an effort to get there hands on some A330's for good price !

Correct. Theres now way Boeing will offer them a discount similar to what they would have already secured from their A350 launch order. They are just trying to squeeze an extra few quid out of airbus  Wink

Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 15):
If they give up the A350 order they will loose both the deposits and launch customers discounts. They got a big discount from the old A350 launch, and are probably eligible to maintain those prices on the XWB.

Since they ordered the first A350 not the XWB it is actually Airbus who has to compensate them for not building it.

The compensation appears to take the form of lower purchase prices, ie an XWB for the price of the smaller, inferior aircraft. But will compensation be paid if the airline decides to cancel?
 
ikramerica
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:45 am

UX flies the 767 and A330. They ordered the original A350 since it was a similar size. Now the A350X is bigger. The 788 would be a better fit. That may be part of the issue.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Danny
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Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:54 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 23):
The compensation appears to take the form of lower purchase prices, ie an XWB for the price of the smaller, inferior aircraft. But will compensation be paid if the airline decides to cancel?

Airline does not have to cancel. It is Airbus who will have to void the order as they have no intention to build the ordered A350. Airbus offers XWB at no extra cost to the customers of old A350 however JL said all orders not converted by the end of the year will be cancelled.
 
EI321
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RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 24):
UX flies the 767 and A330. They ordered the original A350 since it was a similar size.

The 787 was just as similar in size.

The 787-8 and old A350-800 were very close in size. In terms of seating capacity, the 787 is aimed at A330.
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 23):
But will compensation be paid if the airline decides to cancel?

Even if it obviously depends of the contract condition, at least the Performance Bond must be paid. Usually contracts establish that the max. compensation will not exceed the addiion of performance and late delivery bonds. If not so, purchaser can sue for any damage suffered he can demonstate

aminobwana
 
klkla
Posts: 663
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:51 am

RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:13 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 15):
If they give up the A350 order they will loose both the deposits and launch customers discounts. They got a big discount from the old A350 launch, and are probably eligible to maintain those prices on the XWB.

They will not lose their deposits. Their previous order was for a different version of the A350, which Airbius is no longer offering. Not only is Airbus not offering the same aircraft but cannot even come close to their originally promised delivery date. There is no reason why they couldn't get their deposit back.
 
spink
Posts: 316
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:58 pm

RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:33 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 23):
The compensation appears to take the form of lower purchase prices, ie an XWB for the price of the smaller, inferior aircraft. But will compensation be paid if the airline decides to cancel?

Yes it will be paid. Airbus is in complete breach of contract for all contracts signed for the original 350. It may even be possible to argue that airbus is in gross breach of contract and open to additional liabilities besides those specifically spelled out in the contract.

Certainly if Airbus had work in progress for the 350x at the time of negotiating/signing of any 350 contract they are at least liable for fraud related to negotiating in bad faith and signing contracts in bad faith.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13808
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:12 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 26):
The 787 was just as similar in size.

Yeah. And UX wanted to go with Airbus. But it seems Airbus, by redesigning the plane out of the size class, may have made it difficult for UX to justify sticking with Airbus when they no longer offer the plane UX wants.

Despite what some people say about the 788 being "too small" and that it ultimately won't be a good seller, there are plenty of airlines who want a plane the size of the 763/A332/DC10 but with greater efficiency.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Shenzhen
Posts: 1664
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:11 pm

RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:55 am

Quoting Spink (Reply 29):
Yes it will be paid. Airbus is in complete breach of contract for all contracts signed for the original 350. It may even be possible to argue that airbus is in gross breach of contract and open to additional liabilities besides those specifically spelled out in the contract.

They could probably sue Airbus for the difference in contract price for the original A350 and what they will pay today for a 787.

Cheers
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Air Europa Might Change A350 For B787

Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:04 am

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 31):
They could probably sue Airbus for the difference in contract price for the original A350 and what they will pay today for a 787.

Normally, much worse than such. They could ask for the lost profit of operation between 2010 - and when they really got a A350/B787, , or for the cost of leased aircrafts if they used a provisional arrangement etc. But I assume that such aircraft contracts limit the damages to be paid, as I already wrote earlier, to a maximal total amount.

aminobwama

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