flynavy
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Delta To Portugal?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:12 am

I noticed that Delta flew to LIS up until the early to mid-1990s (a route inherited from PanAm). Why did they end service there? Today, Delta doesn't serve LIS nor OPO. With their continuing international expansion in mind, does anyone else see Delta returning to Portugal in the near future (from JFK or ATL), or will they just let TAP, CO, and US cover the US-LIS/OPO market?


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deltairlines
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:22 am

JFK-LIS has been a pretty consistent rumor for a 757 route. Whether it comes to fruition or not remains to be seen.
 
whappeh
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:23 am

I don't know how big the Portugal market is, I'd make the assumption that US and CO have it covered a long with TAP (Obviously). But I do know the Lisbon flights for US are usually pretty full, so who knows if another airline could come in.

I do think a 767 is overkill on the route, though. 757 is perfect.
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doug_or
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:43 am

Quoting Whappeh (Reply 2):
I don't know how big the Portugal market is, I'd make the assumption that US and CO have it covered a long with TAP (Obviously). But I do know the Lisbon flights for US are usually pretty full, so who knows if another airline could come in.

To be fair, most flights to Europe are pretty full.

Most of the NYC Portugese population lives in Newark, so TAP and CO have an advantage for O&D, and JFK is probably even worse for connections than JFK (personal opinion at least). I wonder what the chances of an ATL flight would be? Most of their international expansion thus far has been into markets without competition.
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Evan767
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:49 am

I would put $20 down that Delta will announce this route in the fall from JFK-LIS with the 752. Starting next summer. May 31 to be exact.  Silly
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B4REAL
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:58 am

Yeah, JFK-LIS on a '75 would be dreamy and really the only opportunity from JFK to Europe that they don't already serve. Other destinations would be reinstating or starting ARN/OSL sound good as well.
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abrelosojos
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:11 am

DL is looking at both JFK-LIS and JFK-OPO and I have a strong belief something is going to be announced soon.

-A.
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whappeh
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:32 am

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 3):
To be fair, most flights to Europe are pretty full.

Aye, but I recall hearing that the first year it did well beyond what was expected (so much so it went Daily).
-Travel now, journey infinitely.
 
toltommy
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:34 am

When DL ended service on DL metal (okay former PA metal), they entered into a codeshare agreement with TP. It only lasted a few years before TP switched dance partners.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:54 am

It would also be nice if DL could do BOS-LIS, since this would potentially be a high O&D route. But I think the issues with Mass-Port will likely put the kibosh on anything like that. Never the less, JFK-LIS looks very realistic, as well as JFK-ARN & JFK-OSO. How well will a U.S. flag carrier like DL do in the NYC-JFK to/from Scandinavia market? I know that ATL-CPH has done well for DL, interestingly I think it's a typo, but in the current schedule DL has it listed as a 762.
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flynavy
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:02 pm

The 762 is correct. It's not for the 767-200, it's just a sub-fleet within their mix of 767-300ER's. I think the "762" is an ex-Gulf Air bird. I could be wrong. Delta has quite a few second-hand 767s.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:04 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 9):
It would also be nice if DL could do BOS-LIS, since this would potentially be a high O&D route. But I think the issues with Mass-Port will likely put the kibosh on anything like that. Never the less, JFK-LIS looks very realistic, as well as JFK-ARN & JFK-OSO. How well will a U.S. flag carrier like DL do in the NYC-JFK to/from Scandinavia market? I know that ATL-CPH has done well for DL, interestingly I think it's a typo, but in the current schedule DL has it listed as a 762.

isnt 762 the code for the 767-300ERG(ex gulf Air planes)?
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STT757
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:52 pm

DL would do better with BOS-LIS than JFK-LIS, as mentioned New Jersey has the largest Portuguese community in the US, Massachusetts is second.

There's a reason why there are four flights a day between EWR and Portugal (LIS CO 2xs daily, LIS TAP 2xs daily, OPO 3-4 weekly TAP) and none from JFK. The Portuguese are in New Jersey, not Queens.
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fewsolarge
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:56 pm

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 5):
really the only opportunity from JFK to Europe that they don't already serve.

ARN, WAW, LED to name a few.
 
luisca
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:03 pm

ATL-LIS/OPO would not be such a bad idea, you could catch a lot of the OD market connecting from Latin America and south Florida. I am just guessing, but a large portion of the Venezuelans in MIA are Portuguese descendants and in Latin America you have to go to CCS or GRU to go to Portugal.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:54 pm

Quoting Luisca (Reply 14):
ATL-LIS/OPO would not be such a bad idea, you could catch a lot of the OD market connecting from Latin America and south Florida. I am just guessing, but a large portion of the Venezuelans in MIA are Portuguese descendants and in Latin America you have to go to CCS or GRU to go to Portugal.

DL would have to use one of their 763ERs to do ATL-LIS/OPO, and I'm not certain they could get the desired yield on such a flight with said equipment. I'm actually surprised there is no LIS or ORO flights from GIG, or is there?

Quoting STT757 (Reply 12):
DL would do better with BOS-LIS than JFK-LIS, as mentioned New Jersey has the largest Portuguese community in the US, Massachusetts is second.

 checkmark  Very true, and getting to JFK will be a royal pain in the @$$ for them, but hopefully any connectivity from BOS will help. Just too bad DL must deal with Mass-Port, because I think you would see DL do some Europe flights from there.
Also thanks for the clarification on the 762 code in the DL schedule.
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Elagabal
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:06 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 15):
I'm actually surprised there is no LIS or ORO flights from GIG, or is there?

Oh my goodness there are. TP has Brazil well-covered from LIS and IIRC OPO also. With regard to potential connections via ATL between Portugal and Venezuela, TP already fly direct to CCS, or at least they started doing so not long ago.
 
mats
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:15 pm

Lisbon is one of several former Delta European destinations that we all wish would come back into the system. Lisbon, due to its geographic location, does not lend itself to connections at the SkyTeam hubs in Paris, Amsterdam, or Italy.

Lisbon seems to me to be a predominately leisure/VFR destination, which is perhaps why Delta hasn't yet reinstated service there. I don't know how well they filled up their A310-300's when they flew there; above all, I don't know if there was sufficient premium traffic.

Perhaps with the 757 ETOPS fleet, we might see Lisbon, Stockholm, Warsaw, Hamburg, St. Petersburg, and Oslo come back. Warsaw seems to me to be the most likely of all of them, since no US carriers fly there on their own metal.
 
positiverate
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:21 pm

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 3):
To be fair, most flights to Europe are pretty full.

And as we all know, that doesn't mean a thing if the yields aren' there...
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:29 am

Quoting Mats (Reply 17):
Perhaps with the 757 ETOPS fleet, we might see Lisbon, Stockholm, Warsaw, Hamburg, St. Petersburg, and Oslo come back. Warsaw seems to me to be the most likely of all of them, since no US carriers fly there on their own metal.

WAW and LED might be a little to distant for DL's ETOPs 752s from JFK. Perhaps with winglets it could be done.
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LipeGIG
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 12):
DL would do better with BOS-LIS than JFK-LIS, as mentioned New Jersey has the largest Portuguese community in the US, Massachusetts is second.

There's a reason why there are four flights a day between EWR and Portugal (LIS CO 2xs daily, LIS TAP 2xs daily, OPO 3-4 weekly TAP) and none from JFK. The Portuguese are in New Jersey, not Queens.

Agree 100%

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 15):
DL would have to use one of their 763ERs to do ATL-LIS/OPO, and I'm not certain they could get the desired yield on such a flight with said equipment. I'm actually surprised there is no LIS or ORO flights from GIG, or is there?

GIG is one of the best served long haul markets from LIS with 12 weekly flights. OPO gets 3x weekly flights to GIG. Yields and loads are always high. In fact TP find out it's gold mine on flights out of LIS and OPO to Brazil

GIG-LIS 12x
GRU-LIS 11x
SSA-LIS, FOR-LIS, REC-LIS 7x
BSB-LIS 5x
NAT-LIS 5x (4x on off-season)
GRU-OPO, GIG-OPO 3x each

Quoting Mats (Reply 17):
Lisbon seems to me to be a predominately leisure/VFR destination, which is perhaps why Delta hasn't yet reinstated service there

There are a strong and growing Business market also in LIS (Banks, Energy, Telecom) which shows why CO runs 2x daily flights to LIS. The main reason IMO is that Portuguese demands EWR as explained by STT757.

Felipe
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positiverate
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:21 am

By the way, back to the OP, I was never a fan of the A310, but it sure did look good with that DL livery on it...
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20):
GIG is one of the best served long haul markets from LIS with 12 weekly flights. OPO gets 3x weekly flights to GIG. Yields and loads are always high. In fact TP find out it's gold mine on flights out of LIS and OPO to Brazil

While a bit off topic, but speaking of additional Portuguese speaking (no pun intended!  biggrin  ) markets between the U.S. and Latin America, what are the chances of service between the U.S. and BSB? Say MIA-BSB on AA or ATL-BSB on DL? Would a more flexible U.S./Brazil bilateral help in making this possible?
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2travel2know
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 12):
DL would do better with BOS-LIS than JFK-LIS, as mentioned New Jersey has the largest Portuguese community in the US, Massachusetts is second.

Actually DL may better do PVD-LIS (this could be flown with B737-700/800?) instead of BOS-LIS which is definitely better than a JFK-LIS and maybe B757 ATL-LIS 4 x week too. OPO could aslo work with B737 from PVD/BOS.
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Flighty
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:21 am

How do you guys figure? BOS over JFK?? Come on. LIS is not a niche destination. It is just a pleasant European city where tourists and business people go. I don't see how it should be treated as an ethnic market when it's more of a standard Europe market.
 
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STT757
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:26 am

Lisbon flights will not work year round without substantial support from local Portuguese community.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
RobertS975
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:28 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 23):
Actually DL may better do PVD-LIS (this could be flown with B737-700/800?) instead of BOS-LIS which is definitely better than a JFK-LIS and maybe B757 ATL-LIS 4 x week too. OPO could aslo work with B737 from PVD/BOS.

I have some sad news for you... come September, Delta mainline will no longer serve PVD at all.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:26 am

I dont think there is much demand for service from jfk to portugal.

The city of Newark and surrounding towns have such a large population of people whos ancestry is portugese. Hence why EWR supports such large service four flights a day.

CO at ewr has two huge advantages of DL at JFK for one much much better connection oportunities and second the population that travels to portugal lives very very close to newark airport.

I really dont think that JFK can support the flight (and make a profit) hence why tap or no one else flys the route, but dl seemes willing to try risky flights these days. Remember there was a reason the flight was axed!! DL use to fly this route its not an unknown route. It probably wasnt making money very little premium traffic and too much competition with advantages such as a better location and now with four flights a a day from newark to portugal its gonna be even harder to compete. If dl couldnt make a profit off the flight with less competition why could they know turn a profit with more competition
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:39 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 24):
How do you guys figure? BOS over JFK?? Come on. LIS is not a niche destination. It is just a pleasant European city where tourists and business people go. I don't see how it should be treated as an ethnic market when it's more of a standard Europe market.

My whole point on this discussion is that BOS would work VERY well for DL, but Mass-Port will prove to be highly uncooperative as far as locating gates that can accommodate international/customs service. We've discussed Mass-Port issues on several DL International service proposals from BOS.
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worldtraveler
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:50 am

DL and AF have antitrust immunity and you should not be surprised to see DL and AF make the most of Open Skies; both carriers have a great deal of incentive in putting a presence everywhere in Europe it can. You can bet France's "neighborhood" is a high priority to "secure" for Skyteam. And yes, CO is in Skyteam, but they are ot a part of the immunized portion of Skyteam nor have they applied to be a part of the Joint Venture which AF/DL/KL/NW want.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:01 am

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 6):
DL is looking at both JFK-LIS and JFK-OPO and I have a strong belief something is going to be announced soon.

Your opinion is based on what?
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
RobertS975
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:12 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 24):
How do you guys figure? BOS over JFK?? Come on. LIS is not a niche destination. It is just a pleasant European city where tourists and business people go. I don't see how it should be treated as an ethnic market when it's more of a standard Europe market.

There is a very large Portuguese population in Southeastern MA (Fall River, New Bedford, Taunton)... I am talking about many thousands who do not even speak English, just Portuguese. But many of these folks are actually from the Azores. There already is service from both BOS and PVD to the Azores and this has been in place for years.

That said, I believe that DL 757 service from JFK and/or BOS would actually be successful.
 
CV990
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:26 pm

Hi!

Seeing DL again in Portugal would be wonderfull. We cannot forget that DL got that route from PAN AM and has far has I know they only flew with the A310-300. The reason why they left I never understood taking in mind that since arly 60's Portugal always had two US airlines flying together....TW to JFK and keep going to LAX with 707, latter with 747 and L1011 and finally with the 767-200 then the 300 model to end with the 757-200 in 2001!!! PAN AM flew regulary to LIS until 1978 with the 707 and early on with the DC-8-30....they flew to US via Azores and their flight would to LIS/SMA/MIA/SJU. PAN AM returned briefly with the A310 latter on to be replaced by DL....and then DL left CO took the route...TW left and only in 2006 US started has a 2nd. airline to fly to LIS. I think a JFK/LIS or a BOS/LIS flight will be really good! In my opinion portuguese emigrants/tourists that fly to USA used to reroute themselves via any big european airport and then fly direct to one of those US places that everybody likes.....MIA, LAX, BOS, PHL.....DL have a great US network and I'm sure a lot of people would love to get their feet in DL...also if they fly with the 767 they can actually compete well with TP A330!!!
Regards
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airbazar
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:32 am

Quoting Mats (Reply 17):
Lisbon seems to me to be a predominately leisure/VFR destination

This is an outdated fact by about 10 years. It is predominantely leisure but so are many routes. Leisure does not mean not profitable. LIS is a very high yield destination for the simple fact that there is more demand than supply. LIS has been a very lucrative route for both CO and US and EWR-LIS is TP's 3rd or 4th "long-haul" money making route. Over the last 10 years the greater Lisbon area has seen a huge growth of multinationals establishing themselves there, and LIS also offers the best connections to get to LAD (oil business), where TAP is the only airline that currently is allowed to fly there, daily. The growing Portuguese economy of the last decade combined with a strong Euro currency has sent Portuguese companies shopping in the US, mainly in the Alternative Energy and Construction sectors.

From JFK, DL can connect the entire northeast much like US does out of PHL. It may not be a route that is strong on O&D traffic but I think it will be a very succesfull route, at least until TP decides to get their heads out of their ass and start service to BOS again.
 
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STT757
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:57 pm

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 33):
connections to get to LAD (oil business), where TAP is the only airline that currently is allowed to fly there, daily.

World Aiways has weekly all business class public charters from Houston to LAD.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
airbazar
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:17 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 34):
World Aiways has weekly all business class public charters from Houston to LAD.

I know that but if you need the flexibility of a daily flight you have very few options, TP being one of them. If you work in the Oil industry and your boss decides you must get to Angola by tomorrow, more than likely your trip itinerary will pass through LIS on TP.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 22):
While a bit off topic, but speaking of additional Portuguese speaking (no pun intended! ) markets between the U.S. and Latin America, what are the chances of service between the U.S. and BSB? Say MIA-BSB on AA or ATL-BSB on DL? Would a more flexible U.S./Brazil bilateral help in making this possible?

Yes, there are chances of a service BSB-United States in the near future. In fact ANAC is working on this as well as the Government. I think that this issue of reduce the concentration on São Paulo will become priority now after JJ3054 crash.
Could be even a IAD-BSB service!

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
DLBOIFIN
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:42 am

Quoting Mats (Reply 17):
Perhaps with the 757 ETOPS fleet, we might see Lisbon, Stockholm, Warsaw, Hamburg, St. Petersburg, and Oslo come back. Warsaw seems to me to be the most likely of all of them, since no US carriers fly there on their own metal.

Still hoping/waiting to see Helsinki as DL destination ex-JFK. No other US carriers in the market...come and get it!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Delta To Portugal?

Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:50 am

I have no doubt that DL will announce LIS soon, but capacity to LIS is way up (between additions by TP, CO, and US), and the Portuguese economy is the new "sick man of Europe" so I'm not convinced that it'll be a very profitable new add.
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