jimyvr
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Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:05 am

http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/070716/122974.html

Not 1 but 2. Delta applies for 2 routes to China at the same time - Atlanta - Beijing and Atlanta - Shanghai.

[Edited 2007-07-16 21:10:36]
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
YULYMX
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RE: Ambitious Delta Eyes ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:07 am

Do they have the planes/Range to fly this? any new B777 coming in?
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:24 am

Quoting YULYMX (Reply 1):
Do they have the planes/Range to fly this? any new B777 coming in?

Both flights could be operated with the current 77E aircraft. Additionally, Delta has 6+ 777-232LRs joining the fleet beginning in February 2008.

 Wink
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:27 am

Quoting YULYMX (Reply 1):
Do they have the planes/Range to fly this? any new B777 coming in?

well they could take a T7 off a route
ATL-FRA has(or it had?) a T7 so they could replace it with a 764

and the get to 77Ls early next year buy could trade slots or something or lease a few a/c

are they both for the 07?(or 08?)

now just need ATL-HKG and LAX-PEK,PVG,HKG,CAN
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:30 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 3):
well they could take a T7 off a route
ATL-FRA has(or it had?) a T7 so they could replace it with a 764

ATL-FRA is 764/763 mix.

All T7s op Asia/ME/India (NRT/ICN/BOM/TLV/DXB)
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
srbmod
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:32 am

Quoting YULYMX (Reply 1):
Do they have the planes/Range to fly this? any new B777 coming in?

They got 6 777-200LRs on order that the first of which are scheduled for delivery early next year.

The 772s they currently have could do ATL-PEK and ATL-PVG, but the 772LRs would give them a some breathing room range-wise. More than likely, the LRs will be doing mostly runs to Asia and perhaps eventually be put on the ATL-JNB route.
 
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deltadawg
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:32 am

Great news! I hope they get them both this time around!

Anyone know if they will start the petition again for these routes? Really seems like DL should get these this time around, there are no direct SE US routes to China and these two make perfect sense for not only DL but the Southeastern US and East Coast.
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:34 am

Who else can get routes this time?(only US,HA right?)
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
panamair
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:46 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 3):
are they both for the 07?(or 08?)

No, presumably one for 2007 and the other for 2009. This is because of the DOT's desire to award the 2007, 2008, and 2009 frequencies all at once. There a total of six roundtrips up for grabs: 1 in 2007; 1 in 2008; 4 in 2009. The one in 2008 is specifically only for CAN (not many takers there maybe except for UA). The ones for 2007 and 2009 are open for all although the DOT has indicated a preference for a new carrier in 2007; there can be another new carrier designation for 2009 as well.

NW has also applied now for DTW-PVG and DTW-PEK:

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/070716/20070716006033.html?.v=1

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 4):
ATL-FRA is 764/763 mix

ATL-FRA has gone all 763s for the summer now...
 
kaitak
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:51 am

There's a big increase, as Panamair has pointed out, planned in US-China traffic, so it makes sense for airlines to apply for as much as they can handle; as long as DL can show that it has the aircraft to do the job - which it can with the new 777s coming, then good luck to them.

Apart from NW, to which Panamair has referred above, can we guess other applicants for routes? Probably not too hard to guess!

SFO-CAN UA 777?
IAH/EWR-PVG/PEK CO
DFW-PEK-PVG AA
IAD-PVG UA?
PHL-PVG/PEK US - was discussed some time ago, but can't think what they'll operate; A340s?

Exciting times ahead and of course, that's without considering what might happen by way of consolidation.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:53 am

so DL has ATL-PVG for 07 anychance of of LAX-CAN from DL in 08? and ATL-PEK in 09
Will there more routes after 09? Will DL try LAX-China?

Quoting Panamair (Reply 8):
ATL-FRA has gone all 763s for the summer now...

really? wow i thought the 764s where doing well in FRA

Quoting Panamair (Reply 8):
No, presumably one for 2007 and the other for 2009. This is because of the DOT's desire to award the 2007, 2008, and 2009 frequencies all at once. There a total of six roundtrips up for grabs: 1 in 2007; 1 in 2008; 4 in 2009. The one in 2008 is specifically only for CAN (not many takers there maybe except for UA). The ones for 2007 and 2009 are open for all although the DOT has indicated a preference for a new carrier in 2007; there can be another new carrier designation for 2009 as well.
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
Flighty
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:54 am

This is a travesty. Why not though, I guess. ATL remains a weak location. NW should get both DTW flights before a single ATL flight is granted. DTW covers the Southeast extremely well, plus the all-important Northeast, which DTW covers much better.

Delta has the opportunity to serve JFK but instead they go for politics.

AA should get its ORD flight also.

With 6 available, we might see this:

UA: CAN

AA: ORD-PVG

NW: DTW-PEK

CO: EWR-PVG

DL: ATL-PVG

US: PHL-PEK

UA (dark horse): IAD-PVG
 
panamair
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:02 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 10):
really? wow i thought the 764s where doing well in FRA

The refurbished international 764s were never put on ATL-FRA; they have been plying ATL-LGW, MAN, MXP, MAD, BCN, and CDG (2x daily) this summer. DL20 ATL-FRA went from the 777 in the spring to a 763 immediately when the 777s were required for ICN and DXB.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 9):
Apart from NW, to which Panamair has referred above, can we guess other applicants for routes? Probably not too hard to guess!

SFO-CAN UA 777?
IAH/EWR-PVG/PEK CO
DFW-PEK-PVG AA
IAD-PVG UA?
PHL-PVG/PEK US - was discussed some time ago, but can't think what they'll operate; A340s?

AA has already applied for ORD-PEK for 2009.
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070628/lath102.html?.v=73
Until they get issues resolved with their pilots, they can't do DFW-China.

If DL gets the 2007 new carrier designation, US will probably end up getting the 2009 new carrier slot - they will apply for PHL-PEK in 2009. That gives them plenty of time to acquire the right aircraft, etc.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
With 6 available, we might see this:

AA: ORD-PVG

As mentioned, AA is going with ORD-PEK for 2009.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
This is a travesty. Why not though, I guess. ATL remains a weak location. NW should get both DTW flights before a single ATL flight is granted. DTW covers the Southeast extremely well, plus the all-important Northeast, which DTW covers much better.

right which is why ATL-NRT,ICN,DXB,TLV dont make any money.Also why ATL-Transatlantic dont make any money?

i think DL should get both just because they have NO China flights and the southeast has NO china flights.
although i would like to see LAX china from DL!
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
travelin man
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:10 am

I know it's a PR press release, but this line drives me nuts:

Both routes would fill a critical gap in air service for the 65 million residents of the U.S. Southeast who currently lack nonstop air service to China.

Errr.... only the people of ATL would get non-stop air service to China. The other people from places such as MSY, MIA, BNA, or anywhere else in the "U.S. Southeast" would still have to connect (much like they can already do today). In fact, for many residents of the Southeast (esp. West or North of ATL) existing one-stop service through ORD may be faster than the proposed connection through ATL.

I understand DL wants the route, but it is playing a little fast and loose with the facts to suggest that 65 million people would suddenly have "non-stop air service to China."
 
panamair
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:21 am

Another point I forgot to mention is that today is the deadline for carriers to submit their applications for the 2007, 2008, and 2009 designations. So expect to get another few press releases from various carriers before the end of the day. So far, the announced applications include:

2007: DL for ATL-PVG; NW for either DTW-PEK or DTW-PVG

2008 (for CAN): no one yet

2009: AA for ORD-PEK; DL for ATL-PEK; NW for either DTW-PVG or DTW-PEK; CO for EWR-PVG
CO's press release: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070716/lam142.html?.v=4

Now we just need to hear from UA and US before the day is out.....

[Edited 2007-07-16 22:22:59]
 
ord
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:22 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
NW should get both DTW flights before a single ATL flight is granted.

NW should get nothing. They already have the ability to serve the routes they are applying for, yet instead choose to "waste" this authorization on Japan-China flights. NW should transfer those routes to nonstop USA-China routes, which would provide millions of Americans nonstop and one-stop service to China instead of the current one-stop and two-stop NW service.

Until NW transfers their China authority to better serve the USA-China market, they should be awarded no additional flights.
 
GlobalATL
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:24 am

DL will have everything figured out when the time comes, folks.



http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=10781
TriStar BusinessElite FedEx AirTran Delta Air Lines oneworld SkyTeam JetBlue/jetBlue MAXjet SkyMiles Eos = good spelling
 
panamair
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
Delta has the opportunity to serve JFK but instead they go for politics.

I would have liked to see DL go for JFK or LAX for the 2009 slot but who doesn't go for politics? What would you call UA's IAD-PEK "Capitol to Capitol" push the last time? Talk about politics... Smile
 
kaitak
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:32 am

Won't CO go for EWR to PEK/PVG anyway, so at least there'll be someone going from New York. (Is it just CA which serves the PEK route?)

Also, what about freight routes? I understand that there will be o/s skies on these, so presumably FedEx/UPS can fly whatever routes they like?
 
panamair
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 19):
Won't CO go for EWR to PEK/PVG anyway

CO already flies EWR-PEK. See my post (reply#15) - CO has indeed applied for EWR-PVG for 2009.
 
B6WNQX
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 19):
Also, what about freight routes? I understand that there will be o/s skies on these, so presumably FedEx/UPS can fly whatever routes they like?

I could be mistaken as I am going from memory, but I believe frieght is now exempt from slots (Due to the new agreement). Please correct em if I am wrong.
 
positiverate
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:42 am

Quoting YULYMX (Reply 1):
Do they have the planes/Range to fly this?

They'll find the planes...

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
UA (dark horse): IAD-PVG

More like IAD-Guangzhou...
 
rwsea
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:48 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
This is a travesty. Why not though, I guess. ATL remains a weak location. NW should get both DTW flights before a single ATL flight is granted. DTW covers the Southeast extremely well, plus the all-important Northeast, which DTW covers much better.

You're right, these flights are pretty worthless for most of us. But DL will get them due to politics. Cest la vie.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 13):
right which is why ATL-NRT,ICN,DXB,TLV dont make any money.Also why ATL-Transatlantic dont make any money?

But none of those are restricted markets where other carriers are not legally allowed to operate. The question isn't, "will it make money". The question is, "what more deserving place isn't getting the service"?

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 14):
I understand DL wants the route, but it is playing a little fast and loose with the facts to suggest that 65 million people would suddenly have "non-stop air service to China."

And they also don't point out that ATL won't save them any time over ORD, DTW, etc. For all but ATL and the very smallest Southern communities, these flights won't do a thing.
 
fewsolarge
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:15 am

An interesting question would be how many unduplicated one-stops would be generated from new China service via ATL. I bet that number is the highest of any contender.
 
positiverate
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 23):
You're right, these flights are pretty worthless for most of us.

Sorry that us Southerners can't do more to serve your needs out there in Seattle. Your flights are pretty worthless to us, but we don't begrudge you your Asia service. The United States’ fastest growing region (the Southeast) deserves convenient service to China.

We'll go back to being country bumpkins now...

Quoting Fewsolarge (Reply 24):
An interesting question would be how many unduplicated one-stops would be generated from new China service via ATL. I bet that number is the highest of any contender.

That number is, I think, in the 2006 Show Cause.

Ironically when the last Show Cause order came out, on page 23 of the Order, DOT stated it believes “…American and Delta have the strongest proposals of all the applicants for the 2006 award."

On page 25 the Order stated the following: “The record shows that Delta has offered to provide the most on-line connecting service in this proceeding. Compared to American, Delta would serve more cities, provide more communities with first nonstop-to nonstop connections to China, and provide more flights to the Southeast region of the United States."
 
panamair
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:35 am

Well, US has come out as expected with a PHL-PEK proposal:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070716/lam148.html?.v=6

using 269-seater A340s. They will get the 2009 designation, not only as a new entrant but also because of PHL....

So two of the four 2009 slots should be sewn up by CO and US, which leaves two more for AA, UA, DL, and NW to fight over...now we just have to see what UA comes up with in the next hour or two...
 
positiverate
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:38 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 26):
They will get the 2009 designation, not only as a new entrant but also because of PHL

They will? And this is guaranteed how?
 
db373
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:50 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
This is a travesty. Why not though, I guess. ATL remains a weak location. NW should get both DTW flights before a single ATL flight is granted. DTW covers the Southeast extremely well, plus the all-important Northeast, which DTW covers much better.

Yes. But in reverse, ATL covers the all-important Northeast extremely well, plus the Southeast, which Atlanta covers much better.
Keep Delta My Delta
 
eva777sea
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:00 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 25):
Sorry that us Southerners can't do more to serve your needs out there in Seattle. Your flights are pretty worthless to us, but we don't begrudge you your Asia service. The United States’ fastest growing region (the Southeast) deserves convenient service to China.

We'll go back to being country bumpkins now...

Did you put any thought into that whatsoever before you typed that? Care to explain to me how exactly SEA is inconvenient for people living in the south? SEA is not out of the way and is about as good as it gets geography wise as far as locations go for a connecting flight to Asia. The ATL flight is infact pretty useless to the entire West Coast, the area with the most demand for flights to Asia.

[Edited 2007-07-17 00:01:18]
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:35 am

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 29):
The ATL flight is infact pretty useless to the entire West Coast, the area with the most demand for flights to Asia.

So f'n what? If the DOT only cared about whether China flights are good for the West Coast, they never would have granted IAD-PEK to UA or EWR-PVG to CO. The US doesn't revolve solely around the West Coast  Yeah sure .
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:44 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 23):
But none of those are restricted markets where other carriers are not legally allowed to operate.

Thank you for shooting your own argument down. If DL can make money in highly competitive markets, they should do just fine in "protected" markets. A good chunk of AA and UA's international operation is to/from cities that are protected, China and LHR included.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 23):
But DL will get them due to politics.

DL will get them because ATL is the largest and most powerful hub in the world AND because ATL and the SE has more than enough demand for China flights.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 25):
Your flights are pretty worthless to us, but we don't begrudge you your Asia service.

Which also explains why no US carrier has any service from SEA to Asia other than to NRT, am I right? Meanwhile, ATL has how many flights to Asia (which includes the Middle East)?
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:59 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 30):
So f'n what? If the DOT only cared about whether China flights are good for the West Coast, they never would have granted IAD-PEK to UA or EWR-PVG to CO. The US doesn't revolve solely around the West Coast  sarcastic 

It seams every time a discussion about U.S./China flights comes up, we get this sort of side-track how DL should drop the ATL proposal in favor of LAX or the west coast. The USDOT has the power to accept or reject these proposals and they look at the entire U.S. as a whole. Yes Los Angeles, the Bay Area and Puget Sound have large Chinese communities and much commerce between North America and the Chinese mainland. BUT keep in mind USDOT looks at what formula would work best for the country as well as where the China market is. Right now the Chinese flag carriers have covered LAX and JFK like a blanket, so no U.S. flag carrier is going to commit corporate suicide by proposing LAX-PEK/PVG at least until other bases are covered. ATL represents the largest and busiest hub airport in North America if not the world, and flights from there to PEK and PVG represent linking this growing metro-area with a large economic engine and their home-town carrier which happens to be the third biggest flag carrier to the largest emerging economy in the world. In the next couple of years there will be chances for other communities like SEA or BOS that have large numbers of Chinese and Chinese oriented commerce to get flights from a U.S. flag carrier like DL. SEA is big enough they could go sooner, and perhaps could have attracted a Chinese flag carrier in the first place, but their proximity to YVR hurts them in this process as well as attaining many flights to Asia. SEA is also hurt by the fact that other than AS, no other carrier has established a very predominant position there. IF DL hadn't had the financial issues this decade that they've had and took over AS, then I would suspect DL would take a shot at SEA even before ATL, but that scenario has never happened.

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 5):
They got 6 777-200LRs on order that the first of which are scheduled for delivery early next year.

The 772s they currently have could do ATL-PEK and ATL-PVG, but the 772LRs would give them a some breathing room range-wise. More than likely, the LRs will be doing mostly runs to Asia and perhaps eventually be put on the ATL-JNB route.

DL would likely put a 772ER on the route if they were awarded the route authority today. But my suspicion on this issue is that DL will order a few 773ERs if awarded a China route.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:03 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 31):
Which also explains why no US carrier has any service from SEA to Asia other than to NRT, am I right? Meanwhile, ATL has how many flights to Asia (which includes the Middle East)?

Please note my comment in reply #32 above with respects to the AS dominance of SEA as well as its geographic proximity to YVR.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
MastaHanky
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:05 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 31):
Which also explains why no US carrier has any service from SEA to Asia other than to NRT, am I right? Meanwhile, ATL has how many flights to Asia (which includes the Middle East)?

Oh come on now, you know better than that. If Atlanta was the great Asia-gateway you make it out to be, we'd have Asiana, Eva, China Airlines and who knows what else serving it. But it's not, and without the sheer connecting power that ATL provides, the city wouldn't see any Asia service outside of maybe NRT. It's not worthy of spoke-status to an Asian carrier (with KE being the exception due to codeshares). If SEA was a hub to a US carrier on the scale of ATL, you can bet you'd see just as many Asia services (and probably more) from a US carrier.

I have no issue with DL getting the ATL-PVG route. They're due for it, and it'll help them out. It isn't useful to me, but it'll help the company out, and DL is my primary carrier, any extra money they can get flowing their way is great. But to say ATL is such a wonderful gateway to Asia is just plain silly. ATL has no foreign carrier service outside of KE to ICN, am I right? Meanwhile, SEA has how many flights to Asia (relying on very few connections)?
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:09 am

Quoting MastaHanky (Reply 34):
SEA has how many flights to Asia (relying on very few connections)?

Look at replies #32 and #33 above.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:28 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 32):
BUT keep in mind USDOT looks at what formula would work best for the country as well as where the China market is. Right now the Chinese flag carriers have covered LAX and JFK like a blanket, so no U.S. flag carrier is going to commit corporate suicide by proposing LAX-PEK/PVG at least until other bases are covered.

Thanks for confirming that this process is purely political and that DL has a shot at one or two routes, even though the connection traffic to China from virtually 100% of the connections can be equal or better via the West Coast, Pacific Northwest, EWR/NYC, IAD, ORD, etc.

Since it's political, DL can get away with somehow stating that this service brings "new" connections to China and will now somehow serve 65million people with new "non-stop" service.

With NW and US looking a little more in doubt than DL, here's what would make sense:
2007 DL ATL-PEK
2008 UA CAN
2009 CO EWR-PVG
2009 AA ORD-PVG (have they shot themselves in the foot with Crew problems on DFW-China?)
2009 Two of the following four, US PHL-PEK, NW DTW-PEK, DL ATL-PVG, UA LAX_PVG

But, looking at the 2009 award, would the DOT add three of four slots or all four in PVG?? I don't think so and would believe that US and NW would have the inside track with PEK applications. UA's LAX-PVG application makes the DL ATL-PVG application only tougher.

[Edited 2007-07-17 01:31:58]

[Edited 2007-07-17 01:36:47]

[Edited 2007-07-17 01:37:35]
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travelin man
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:34 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 32):
Right now the Chinese flag carriers have covered LAX and JFK like a blanket, so no U.S. flag carrier is going to commit corporate suicide by proposing LAX-PEK/PVG at least until other bases are covered.

Please see United's proposal of LAX-PVG.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070716/aqm201.html?.v=3
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:41 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 33):
Please note my comment in reply #32 above with respects to the AS dominance of SEA as well as its geographic proximity to YVR.

And AS doesn't fly to Asia. Yes, it would be nice if DL acquired AS - they could do just about every viable route to China with a 767! YVR has a higher percentage of Asians than does SEA.

Quoting MastaHanky (Reply 34):
Oh come on now, you know better than that. If Atlanta was the great Asia-gateway you make it out to be, we'd have Asiana, Eva, China Airlines and who knows what else serving it.

Oh come on now. You know better than to think that Asian carriers would drop a flight into another carrrier's hub if they don't have agreements with that airline. All DL would have to do is start the same route and the foreign flag is finished. Remember that JAL used to fly to ATL. They don't get along w/ DL (at least from a marketing standpoint) but KE does. Guess who flies to ATL? You should be able to think THAT through.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 36):
With NW and US looking a little more in doubt than DL, here's what would make sense:
2007 DL ATL-PEK
2008 UA CAN
2009 CO EWR-PVG
2009 AA ORD-PVG (have they shot themselves in the foot with Crew problems on DFW-China?)
2009 Two of the following three, US PHL-PEK, NW DTW-PEK, DL ATL-PVG

Except that DL's route proposal is for PVG in 2007.

Notice also that the entire southern tier will be without PEK service as a result of AA's decision to apply from ORD (which needs another duplicated route to China like SEA needs nonstop service to EZE).
 
MastaHanky
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:52 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 38):
Oh come on now. You know better than to think that Asian carriers would drop a flight into another carrrier's hub if they don't have agreements with that airline. All DL would have to do is start the same route and the foreign flag is finished. Remember that JAL used to fly to ATL. They don't get along w/ DL (at least from a marketing standpoint) but KE does. Guess who flies to ATL? You should be able to think THAT through.

Several Asian carriers seem to do just fine with the flights they've dropped into LAX, ORD, EWR and JFK without having agreements with hubbing carriers. And did I not state KE flies to ATL due to codeshare? Do I need to type slower so you catch all this?

I will state it again: ATL-PVG will work just fine, but ATL is still a crap gateway to China and can only survive off the sheer connecting power DL provides.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:15 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 38):
You know better than to think that Asian carriers would drop a flight into another carrrier's hub if they don't have agreements with that airline.

You might want to tell Korean that since they serve many markets where they have no partner hub (SFO, ORD, IAD, DFW).

I'm sure DL will do ok with ATL-PVG, but trying to make ATL out to be some major Asian gateway is laughable. There's a reason why the DOT gave AA duplicate service to China from ORD rather than DL's new hub. They recognized it was more important to serve markets that have a large O+D base and connecting traffic, over a hub like ATL which has a weak O+D base and relies heavily on connections to marginal markets with questionable demand (i.e. the two people per year who go from Valdosta to China!!!).
 
MastaHanky
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:16 am

Quoting MastaHanky (Reply 39):

I will state it again: ATL-PVG will work just fine, but ATL is still a crap gateway to China and can only survive off the sheer connecting power DL provides.

Here, let me rephrase this a different way.

Draw a line along the Mississippi River, and look at all the cities east of it that have an airport with carrier service.

Now look at all the cities that already have one-stop connecting service via ORD, EWR, or IAD.

Now look at all the cities that don't have connecting service available from these gateways, but would if ATL had a China route. Not too many, is there?

ATL brings nothing to the table. There are enough frequent flyers east of the Mississippi loyal to Delta to fill the flight and for them to make money. But they're still not adding anything that other carriers aren't already covering.
 
rwsea
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:42 am

Sheesh, it's interesting to see how quickly people turn the second you step out of line. But anyways ...

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 25):
Sorry that us Southerners can't do more to serve your needs out there in Seattle. Your flights are pretty worthless to us, but we don't begrudge you your Asia service. The United States’ fastest growing region (the Southeast) deserves convenient service to China.

We'll go back to being country bumpkins now...

No one even said anything about Seattle, that was you. Any flight from ATL-Far East Asia is worthless for LAX, SFO, NYC, BOS, DFW, IAH, and any other host of big cities. ATL results in a longer flight time and does not improve upon the available service today. Anyone who continues to deny that fact is living in fantasy land.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 30):
So f'n what? If the DOT only cared about whether China flights are good for the West Coast, they never would have granted IAD-PEK to UA or EWR-PVG to CO. The US doesn't revolve solely around the West Coast .

Well in fairness, no one applied because UA has the only west coast hub. And that's part of the problem - the hub and spoke model favors cities without much demand at the expense of cities with demand. P2P flights are solving that in the domestic market but the international market continues to face this problem.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 31):
Thank you for shooting your own argument down. If DL can make money in highly competitive markets, they should do just fine in "protected" markets. A good chunk of AA and UA's international operation is to/from cities that are protected, China and LHR included.

Yes, but you conveniently leave out the fact that UA/AA use their frequencies from a) a variety of markets, and b) markets make sense from both a geographic and O&D standpoint. Using your example of UA, DL is proposing the equivalent of operating LHR exclusively from places like RDU and ABQ - cities with marginal demand and out of the way for most of the traffic. Instead UA operates from SFO, LAX, ORD, IAD - all cities which have the demand, but also provide connecting options to just about everyone. Thus, even though LHR is restricted, the whole country has access.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 31):
Which also explains why no US carrier has any service from SEA to Asia other than to NRT, am I right? Meanwhile, ATL has how many flights to Asia (which includes the Middle East)?

ATL has 3 cities in Asia with one-stop service. And only NRT would have a chance of survival if DL went under.

Quoting MastaHanky (Reply 34):
But to say ATL is such a wonderful gateway to Asia is just plain silly.

 checkmark 
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:42 am

still no CAN flights from UA?

now if only DL would try for LAX-CAN or ATL-CAN

ATL will do just fine for china just like it has almost everywhere else there are flights to. why are you guys still talking about how bad of a hub ATL is? slow news day?
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:59 am

Its really interesting how ""controversial"" the idea of ATL as a Asian gateway has become here at a.net....this is the third or fourth time in recent months that a thread concerning Delta's application for China services using ATL as their gateway city has evolved into a serious discussion as to why or why not flight(s) from the Southeast US to China makes any sense. Exactly why is ATL such a touchy subject?

DL has selected ATL as a gateway for its initial services to China for one reason.....DL is absolutely sure that flights from ATL to PEK and/or ATL to PVG will be a huge financial success. DL has the largest hub operation in the world at ATL, and with all of the connection possibilities that DL can offer via ATL plus whatever O&D traffic there is between ATL and China (come on, ATL is not a little village, its a major city that is the home to come rather well-known worldwide companies, Coca Cola and CNN come to mind), the flights are a sure success. Sounds like a good business plan to me. And, there will be passengers (including premium pax) that will consider flying BOS-ATL-PVG or BWI-ATL-PEK.....on a journey of this length, a detour through ATL is not really such a big deal; an extra hour or so of flying time on a 20+ hour trip is not critical and many times that can even be made up due to convenient connections or the like.

Will ATL-China flights benefit the resident of SEA? No, they wont, but on the other hand SEA-Europe flights dont benefit the residents of ATL or MIA.....not every flight can serve every market. And, if ATL was not a megahub for DL, its clear that ATL-China flights would not be a priority and would never come to be, but thats a moot point. If DFW was not a hub for AA, its unlikely that the DFW-NRT would exist, and if IAH was not a hub for CO, IAH-EZE would not be operated. Thats the way it is....strong hubs allow airlines to launch some rather unusual and unexpected routes and make a success out of them. Again and again, we hear how DTW-China routes should be granted to NW (and NW is a whole other story that I am not getting into)....but can someone explain to me why DTW-CHina makes sense and ATL-CHina does not? Is it because DTW is less than a thousand miles further north than ATL? If thats the reasoning, its nonsense, and I cant think of any other logic that makes DTW a better Asian gateway than ATL. Lets face it, if there were no hubs, New York, Chicago, San Francisco and Los Angeles would be the only US cities with nonstop service to China.

Many seem to think that DL should serve China from LAX in connection with whatever plans that DL may or may not have concerning turning LAX into a Pacific gateway city.....but why should they take a risk at LAX when ATL is a sure thing? DL may have big plans for LAX, but those plans are still being developed and its still unclear if DL will find success on LAX-Asia routes. ATL -China is sure to be a success. As for DL applying for JFK-China routes, why JFK over ATL? While DL has found remarkable success with its European expansion out of JFK, DL does not have plans to turn JFK into an Asian gateway city (please dont count TLV as Asia for purposes of this discussion)......JFK-NRT is a route that we will likely see DL re-launch in the next couple of years but if DL does commit to a big transpacific expansion, it will be out of LAX and, to a lesser extent, ATL and not JFK.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 38):
And AS doesn't fly to Asia. Yes, it would be nice if DL acquired AS - they could do just about every viable route to China with a 767

DL+AS, that a new one? I thought DL was going to take over UA? Wait, I thought DL was going to acquire NW?

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 36):
With NW and US looking a little more in doubt than DL, here's what would make sense:
2007 DL ATL-PEK
2008 UA CAN
2009 CO EWR-PVG
2009 AA ORD-PVG (have they shot themselves in the foot with Crew problems on DFW-China?)
2009 Two of the following four, US PHL-PEK, NW DTW-PEK, DL ATL-PVG, UA LAX_PVG

2007 will be DL flying ATL-PVG
2008 will be UA to CAN.
2009 CO EWR-PVG, AA ORD-PVG, DL ATL-PEK and US PHL-PEK.

My guesses....why? Balance.....the airlines with lesser Asian networks each get a couple of routes to China, UA with a large Asian network has an opportunity with CAN (SFO-CAN should work) and NW may have no choice but to re-consider its strategy on China service and re-introduce nonstop services from the US to China.
 
Flighty
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:49 am

Quoting Fewsolarge (Reply 24):
An interesting question would be how many unduplicated one-stops would be generated from new China service via ATL. I bet that number is the highest of any contender.

Small towns in the Northeast, yes. Then again, NW covers a lot of regional places up North that nobody else covers also. This is not what matters. Good connections to NYC, WAS, BOS, PVD, IND, ATL, DTW and ORD are what matter. For that, DTW is best, unless we are talking SEA, which we're not.

Quoting Db373 (Reply 28):
Yes. But in reverse, ATL covers the all-important Northeast extremely well, plus the Southeast, which Atlanta covers much better.

ATL covers the Northeast in an OK, but slow and out of the way manner. It's very much like serving Brazil from DTW. Sure, you could do it. You could say it gives the Northern USA direct service to Brazil. But does that matter? No. Does it make any sense to serve GRU from DTW? No. For the same reasons, China service from ATL is less than ideal. It can work, but it is not the best.

DTW on the other hand serves the Southeast just as quickly (if not more quickly) than ATL. If you are in TPA, your connection thru DTW will be just as good as ATL.

Which local area needs more China service, Atlanta or Detroit? Detroit.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 45):
Which local area needs more China service, Atlanta or Detroit? Detroit.

Dude let go of the reply & repeat button. You already said all that...NWA is not getting it. Let it go.

Which area is the fastest growing in the country? the SE.
Which city is one of the fastest growing cities in the country? ATL.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
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OA412
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:56 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 44):

Amen to that! An excellent point highlighting exactly why DL has chosen ATL for its China service and why it is very likely to be a success. I remember the same arguments being trotted out on this board when DL began Latin/South America service from ATL. It's now 10 years later and DL is the 2nd largest US airline to South America.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 44):
2009 CO EWR-PVG, AA ORD-PVG, DL ATL-PEK and US PHL-PEK.

I'm sure you meant to say AA ORD-PEK  Wink
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deltal1011man
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:57 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 45):
DTW on the other hand serves the Southeast just as quickly (if not more quickly) than ATL. If you are in TPA, your connection thru DTW will be just as good as ATL.

Which local area needs more China service, Atlanta or Detroit? Detroit.

dude LET IT GO

i think DL,UA,NW(and US as the new airline) will get it anyways so let it go bro
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Ambitious Delta Applies ATL-PEK/ATL-PVG

Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:58 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 45):
Which local area needs more China service, Atlanta or Detroit? Detroit.

The SE is the fastest growing region in the country.

Unfortunately, NWA and Detroit aren't getting it. Move on?
Some see lines, others see between the lines.