boeingfever777
Posts: 1990
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:35 am

BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:14 pm

LONDON -(Dow Jones)- British Airways PLC (BAIRY) is continuing talks with Boeing Co. (BA) and Airbus over a new long-haul airplane order, Chief Executive Willie Walsh said Tuesday.

Walsh told BA's annual general meeting that he plans to visit Airbus in Toulouse the week after next to discuss the double-decker A380.

He said he visited Boeing in Seattle a few weeks back and saw the new fuel- efficient 787 in production.

BA is also looking at Airbus' A350 and A330 as well as the Boeing 747-8 and 777.

The airline recently ordered four 777s as part of its initial long-haul fleet expansion.

Walsh told Dow Jones Newswires recently that he expects to finalize the new order in September.

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/...OWJONESDJONLINE000292_FORTUNE5.htm

Well who will win this coveted order & wonder what Walsh thought of seeing the 787 in production?
IMO this is Boeing's to win or lose.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:20 pm

This is no doubt a classic battle for business between the titans. I think the problems with the A-380 production and the continual re-designs of the A-350 series may hurt Airbus chances a tad here, but not much more than that. I think this will be a split order for some A-380, some 777 & 787.
One Nation Under God
 
EA772LR
Posts: 1285
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:18 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:27 pm

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Thread starter):
BA is also looking at Airbus' A350 and A330 as well as the Boeing 747-8 and 777.

I found this interesting. I thought many people on here dismissed the 747-8I totally, but it seems that at least BA is looking at it. Though as much as I would like to see a 748 in BA's livery, I don't know why BA won't order a ton of 77W's. They already operate an extensive fleet of 777's and some with the GE90. My guess is they go with 788's and 789's with some 77W's and a few 380's.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 4820
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Thread starter):
IMO this is Boeing's to win or lose.

Yes, they must be considered the favourites. But there seems little doubt that BA are looking very seriously at a number of Airbus models. They made flattering comments about the A330 when they ordered four more 777-200ERs, suggesting that it was commonality with their existing fleet that swung it. The implication must be that if they were starting with a clean sheet of paper the A330 would have had an excellent chance.

Anyway, the four 777-200ERs aren't part of the fleet replacement programme and should be seen as a top-up of existing capacity. I still wouldn't rule out a BA order for A330s - though only if they are also buying other Airbus widebodies.

The A380 seems to have the best chance at BA. They may well order both the A380 and 747-8i (though I doubt it) but a BA order for A380s has looked likely for several months. I'd actually be surprised now if the don't order it.

The wild card here is the A350. I think a BA order for the A380 is likely and I could see an order for the A330 in certain circumstances. But a BA order for the A350 would be astonishing.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 2):
I don't know why BA won't order a ton of 77W's.

I agree. It seems an obvious fit for BA but we're told that it isn't under consideration.

So does that leave us with a BA order for 787s looking most likely and everything after that is up for grabs?

Elsewhere I've guessed (which is all I can do) at a BA order for 787s, 777-300ERs and A380s. That still makes sense to me. (Though I confidently expect to be proven wrong. Again!)
 
Sketty222
Posts: 904
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:36 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting PM (Reply 3):
So does that leave us with a BA order for 787s looking most likely

This would make sense though. Open skies is nearly upon us and if BA can build up a good market on the EU-US flights with their 75's then the 787 would be a perfect aircraft to take over on these routes.


Lee
There's flying and then there's flying
 
SEPilot
Posts: 4918
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:42 am

Quoting PM (Reply 3):
I still wouldn't rule out a BA order for A330s

Why would they order A330's at this point? Wouldn't 787's make more sense? I would expect BA to hold off on aluminum planes that will be obsoleted by either the 787 or A350; I would expect them to hold off on 777's for replacement for this reason. As there is no CFRP VLA on the horizon they will probably order the 748 or A380, or both. I could see them ordering 788's to replace the 767's and A350-1000's to replace the older 777's, or, if they don't like the A350 then pressure Boeing to launch the 787-10. Their 777's aren't that old; it would be worth it to hold off until a more economical plane was available rather than having the newest obsolete planes on the block.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
dl767captain
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:51 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:56 am

i think it is good that BA is following LH and looking at both the A380 and the 748i, as for the A330, im guessing that is a incentive for them to buy the A350 but since they do not have any A330's in their fleet right now im guessing BA would not care about this. I see BA ordering the A350 as a 777 replacement (but aren't most of the 777's pretty new?) The 787 makes sense for them to replace the 767/some 757's and also use something like the 789 as virgin atlantic will. I think the A380 will be a must but i believe they will also order the 748i like LH. They may order more 777's as a filler until they can get these planes.
 
cygnuschicago
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:34 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:57 am

In agreement. My money remains on this being a Boeing 787 order. In addition, I think they're going to go for about 20 - 25 + 20 748is, and 0 + 0 A388s.
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
Geo772
Posts: 439
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:40 pm

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:22 am

I think the A380 is highly likely, although not in large numbers no more than about a dozen.

To complement them at the larger end of the market there is the 748i, 77W and A350-1000. The 77W and A350 should allow BA to take out cost faster than revenue compared with theold 744s that they would be replacing. However an increase in fleet size would be needed to facilitate growth.

At the smaller end of the order, the 788 looks on paper to be the best possible 763 replacement. The A332 would only win it in my view on delivery schedule and initial cost of ownership. I think the A350 might be too large an aircraft for some of the current 763 operated routes.
Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
 
bringiton
Posts: 763
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:24 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:37 am

I cannot imagine BA never operating the A380 ! It just doesnt sound and look right . But that doesnt rule out the 748I either , they may decide to go LH way and order both types . The 787 at this time is stronger in my opinion but boeing would be working overtime to sell BA the 748I as After LH every thing has been hush hush and they need more blue chip airlines to order the 748I .
 
User avatar
fxramper
Posts: 5837
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:03 pm

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:45 am

Would love to see the 787 in BA livery.

Guess we all get to wait till late September to find out.  confused 
 
EA772LR
Posts: 1285
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:18 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting Fxramper (Reply 10):
Would love to see the 787 in BA livery.

Here it is Fxramper : http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...earch/photo_search.php?id=00007933
 wink 

p.s. how do add pictures to my post???
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 782
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:08 am

I can't see the A330 ever making it into the BA fleet unless it is part of a deal for A350XWBs a la SQ (if anything). I also can't see any more 777-200ERs being ordered in double figures, considering some of them have been in the fleet for 10 years or so now? If anything there may be future 777 orders as 'top-ups'.

The A350XWB would make a good long-term 777 replacement unless Boeing develops a 777NG family using 787 technology and composites, and more fuel-efficient engines should they be produced. All these 777/787 deals can't run on forever if one family still contains technology introduced before the 787 came about.

As for 747-400 replacement, my money is on 747-8i alongside a small order for A380s to cater for routes like JFK. Can't really see the 777-300ER making the BA fleet.

Whatever happens I can see this being the lucrative order of the year for BOTH Airbus and Boeing, and will be interesting to watch!
 
sunrisevalley
Posts: 4952
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:26 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:20 am

In the context of BA and LHR , Boeing were working very hard on a noise reduction program for the 747-8. Anyone read any new detail on this?
 
iahflyer
Posts: 249
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:34 pm

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:26 am

Didn't BA say that they would not split the order between A and B? I think the 748 would be better due the fact that there will probably be to much capacity in the near-distant future.
Little airports with the big jets are the best!! Floyd
 
WAH64D
Posts: 744
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:14 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 5):

Why would they order A330's at this point? Wouldn't 787's make more sense?

Because the 763s need replaced sooner rather than later. Waiting 8 years for B787s does not make economical sense when they can have A332/3s much sooner and then a very favourable deal on A350 that will replace equipment on the thinner B744 routes and the B772ERs. I still think BA will take both A380/B748i in limited numbers. IMO the availability of Trent powered A330s tied to a healthy deal on A350 very much makes this fight Airbus's to lose. Walsh was an enthusiastic GE supporter in his EI days, it'll be interesting to see which engines are chosen.
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:37 am

BA have said repeatedly, albeit a while ago now, that only one manufacturer would supply them with widebody aircraft. If that's the case, then it's still not clear who BA would go with.

If Boeing, it would be the 747-8i, 787 and probably 77W. Does this provide sufficient growth for BA who over the last ten years have focussed almost entirely on Heathrow, reducing capacity nearly everywhere else? The 747-8i are a good replacement for the earlier 747s, the 787 are a good replacement for the 767s and 777As, the 77W provides some growth for the 772ER routes.

For Airbus, it would be the A380 and A350. The A380 has been long speculated. Concourse B at Heathrow Terminal 5 has been specifically designed for the A380, and opens alongside the main building in March next year. The A380 gives BA growth on key routes out of Heathrow and with the freighter cancellations, are available before 2012. The A350 provides good growth throughout the 767-777 fleet. BA have shown before that they're willing to completely change their fleet with minimal consideration for commonality between existing types.

If it's a mixture, then the combinations are endless. I can't see BA operating the 747-8i and A380 in parallel, nor can I see BA ordering some 787 to replace the 767s and A350 to replace 777A and for growth.

The big benefit that Airbus have over Boeing is that the A350 is sufficiently larger than the 787 that it provides the growth that BA wants to see from Heathrow. Whilst the 747-8i fits well with BA's current fleet, the A380 fits well with Heathrow.

This is a classic ding dong between the two manufacturers, and it'll be very interesting to see the result.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
WAH64D
Posts: 744
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:14 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:49 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 17):
the 77W provides some growth for the 772ER routes.

It does but while the 772ERs are pretty young it may make more sense to wait for A350 or a possible B787-10.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 17):
This is a classic ding dong between the two manufacturers, and it'll be very interesting to see the result.

 checkmark  For once an order that has no obvious outcome. My personal and unbiased feeling is that an A330/A350 combination will be too good a deal to pass up. Then again B748i has no competitor and I don't see how BA can do without it. Boeing are going to have to work very hard to keep BAs longhaul fleet "Airbus free". A B787-10 commitment on Boeng's part is required for this deal to go their way IMO.
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:56 am

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 2):
Though as much as I would like to see a 748 in BA's livery, I don't know why BA won't order a ton of 77W's. They already operate an extensive fleet of 777's and some with the GE90.

But thats like asking why NW, AC, or QF did not just order a ton of A330's instead of the 787. The cost savings of the A350 or 787 over the A330 or 777 are huge in the long term.
 
flysherwood
Posts: 881
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:58 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting PM (Reply 3):
The implication must be that if they were starting with a clean sheet of paper the A330 would have had an excellent chance.

As it should. The A330 is a very good airplane.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1471
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:06 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 17):
BA have said repeatedly, albeit a while ago now, that only one manufacturer would supply them with widebody aircraft.

I still think this is a negotiating ploy on BA's part to get the best possible price, and they will ultimately place a mixed Boeing / Airbus order.

20 years ago, AA's Bob Crandall famously asked Airbus and Boeing for quotes on A300-600s and 767-300ERs, then signed BOTH proposals.
Seaholm Maples are #1!
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 22):
20 years ago, AA's Bob Crandall famously asked Airbus and Boeing for quotes on A300-600s and 767-300ERs, then signed BOTH proposals.

Albeit not in equal measure. A large airline like BA or AA can afford to tailor their fleet needs to suit different missions. The A300 has the cargo and the 767 has the range. I would not die of shock of BA ordered a mix such as 788, 789, A359, A350-1000, A380.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:22 am

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 18):

It does but while the 772ERs are pretty young it may make more sense to wait for A350 or a possible B787-10.

Yes, which I think is in the benefit of the A350. BA's ultimate longhaul fleet could concievably be A350 and A380. On the other hand, I can't see BA's longhaul fleet being 787 and 747-8i, there's a big capacity gap in between the fleets and at the top end of the scale, where the 747-8i only provides modest growth at Heathrow.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 23):
I would not die of shock of BA ordered a mix such as 788, 789, A359, A350-1000, A380.

No, neither would I. But I'd imagine a more tempered appraoch. Feasibly, BA could order 787-8, A350-900, A350-1000, 747-8i and A380.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
BlueShamu330s
Posts: 2565
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 3:11 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:39 am

If I might repeat what I posted on a previous thread, about six weeks ago, today's "news" reflects the quandary I suggested BA were in............

BlueShamu330s From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2001, 914 posts, RR: 6
Reply 115, posted Tue Jun 12 2007 21:11:26 your local time (1 month 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5390 times:



Well, if I might make a contribution, this was always Boeing's contest to lose.

BA are more than acutely aware that, if they commit to the 748i, "the competition" will flood the press with indirect references to the fact that they (BA's competitiors) are commiting to a brand new 21st century airliner whilst BA is plodding along with a re-hash of a re-hash of a design some 40 years old.

Now, don't flame the messenger. This is the known dilemma BA is in, especially since a switch to another manufacturer for long haul would be unprecedented since BA was born. They do credit their premium passengers with an ounce or two of aviation knowledge. They do know that frequent premium passengers will compare BA's offering to others, and they absolutely know for sure that a certain virginal rival will milk any advantage to the absolute maximum.

They also know that any route which fills one or two B744s today will more than surely support A380 ops in the near future.

So, as the fleet planner for BA, do you go for a small percentile increase in seats or do you plan for the future, bite the bullet and go for the A380?

The A380 fits the growth graph WRT route development; the B748 falls short.....much to the exasperation of the planners in BA.

BA does have an allegiance to Boeing for their long haul commitments, and they have an excellent relationship with Rolls; that is exactly why they are in the decision dilemma they currently find themselves in.

If the A380 was a B380, I'm sure this order would have been placed many, many months ago.

The outcome will be fascinating, and I can't wait to see who on here was correct and who will be eating humble pie.

Shamu
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
runway24r
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 2:27 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:52 am

Hi.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised to see a BA order looking something like this:

30 + 40 Boeing 748i to replace 744
25 + 40 Airbus A350-900/1000 to replace earlier 777 models as well as expansion
15 + 25 Boeing 787-800 to replace their Boeing 767-300ER fleet and expansion

Also am I right in hearing that BA expressed an interest a few months ago in launching a business only airline? If this were to come to fruition I would expect BA to order further 788/789 aircraft to justify a fairly small mainline fleet of 787s. Can anyone confirm or discard BA expressing such an interest please?

Regards, Runway24R
A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A346, 732, 733, 736, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 77L, 77W, CRJ700, MD80
 
keesje
Posts: 8608
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:56 am

I think Boeing 777-200ER and Boeing 747-8i are unlikely. They have loads of 777-200´s and 747-400 for at least a decade. No hurry here.

The A380 could offer BA a platform to strenghten their network / fight of competition

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/photos/big/00008640.jpg

The 787-8 seems to small with BA roomy cabin specifications. The 787-9 could be of additional value.

So A380´s & 787-9s seems a rational / safe prediction to me for the older 747 & 767 up for replacement. Postphoning a decision on the 748i / A350 until 747 / 777 replacement comes on the table..

Unless they still want to see the real live performance first, then a combined longer term A330/A350 deal could be possible.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
flysherwood
Posts: 881
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:58 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:03 am

I have to say Keesje, IMHO that is not a very attractive airplane. It really does look like a giant flying whale. The 748 will look so much better with BA's livery.  Wink
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22948
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 24):
Yes, which I think is in the benefit of the A350. BA's ultimate longhaul fleet could concievably be A350 and A380. On the other hand, I can't see BA's longhaul fleet being 787 and 747-8i, there's a big capacity gap in between the fleets and at the top end of the scale, where the 747-8i only provides modest growth at Heathrow.

The "seat gap" between a 787-10 and 747-8I would be similar to the existing gap between the 772ER and the 744. It will be a much larger gap between the A350-1000 and the A380-800.

BA is going to take A380-800s in at least some number. They wouldn't have built A380 gates at Terminal Five if they didn't intend to. But BA needs to make a decision whether they want to up-gauge or down-gauge existing 744 routes that won't be candidates for A380-800 service. If they want to up-gauge, then that is the 748. If not, then it's the A350-1000.

As to slots, LHR is going to get a third runway just as NRT will get a second. If they don't, then they're eventually going to stop being as important as connecting hubs as O&D traffic bypasses them on smaller planes. An A388 offers ~10% more capacity then a 747-8I. An A389 would get that to ~15%. Yet A380 supporters here constantly note how world air traffic will jump 20-30% or more. So an A380 will help you now, but it won't help you later, just as a 747 can help you now, but it won't help you later. Sure, we could see 80mx80m BWBs with 1500 passengers, but I'm not holding my breath. Instead, those airports will expand and open more slots.

As to the 767-300ER, if BA was ready to scrap them they wouldn't be spending all the money putting in new Club World and World Traveler (Plus) seating. BA is going to fly those planes until the 787-8s or A358s are ready. If necessary, BA will lease at first to fill needs.

I still believe the most likely fleet is the 787-8, the 787-10 or A350-900, the 747-8I (30-40) and the A380-800 (10-15). I do not believe BA will buy the 777-300ER nor the 777-200LR. I remain skeptical on BA ordering the A350-1000, but will not flatly rule it out nor will I be shocked if they order it - with or without the 747-8I. I will be shocked if BA does not take the A380-800 nor the 787-8. I will be surprised if they don't take the 747-8I.
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
The 787-8 seems to small with BA roomy cabin specifications.

As a 767 replacement or as a 777 replacement? Its bigger than the 763
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22948
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
The 787-8 seems to small with BA roomy cabin specifications. The 787-9 could be of additional value.



Quoting EI321 (Reply 30):
As a 767 replacement or as a 777 replacement? Its bigger than the 763

A 787-8 would allow BA to use four classes of service again - FIRST, Club World, World Traveler Plus, and World Traveler. This would allow BA to maintain a common "feel" across their widebody fleet, something they do not currently have since removing FIRST from their 767-300ERs to fit the flat-bed Club World product and World Traveler Plus.

The current BA 763ER config is 24 CW, 24WT+ and 144WT. I am pretty sure that, with a 787-8, BA can add eight FIRST suites, plus an extra row or two each of CW and WT+, while keeping WT at 144. BA can go to 7 to 8 abreast in WT+ and 8 to 9 abreast in WT, which is going to add one to two extra seats per row over what the 767-300ER adds. And they will have wider aisles in FIRST and CW.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3069
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 14):
In the context of BA and LHR , Boeing were working very hard on a noise reduction program for the 747-8. Anyone read any new detail on this?

There's a Boeing ad in todays telegraph, showing a map of LHR with the respective noise footprintsfor the 747-400 & 747-8
 
WAH64D
Posts: 744
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:14 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting Runway24R (Reply 26):
Personally I wouldn't be surprised to see a BA order looking something like this:

30 + 40 Boeing 748i to replace 744

Not in a million years. B744 will largely be replaced by widebody twins and where the capacity is needed we'll see A388 and B748i but not in numbers as large as you suggest.

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 28):
I have to say Keesje, IMHO that is not a very attractive airplane. It really does look like a giant flying whale. The 748 will look so much better with BA's livery. Wink

Surely you jest? She is beauty incarnate  Wink

Quoting Stitch (Reply 29):
I still believe the most likely fleet is the 787-8, the 787-10 or A350-900, the 747-8I (30-40) and the A380-800 (10-15). I do not believe BA will buy the 777-300ER nor the 777-200LR. I remain skeptical on BA ordering the A350-1000, but will not flatly rule it out nor will I be shocked if they order it - with or without the 747-8I. I will be shocked if BA does not take the A380-800 nor the 787-8. I will be surprised if they don't take the 747-8I.

So you're keeping an open mind Stitch? An exercise in fence sitting indeed my friend  Wink
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22948
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-

Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 33):
So you're keeping an open mind Stitch? An exercise in fence sitting indeed my friend.  wink 

Well the "simple" answer to me would be to say "787-8, 787-10 and 747-8I" because that would be a straight capacity increase over the 767-300ER, the 777-200ER and the 747-400. However, I believe the reality of the situation for BA's Fleet Planners is not so "simple" because of the possibilities provided by the A350-900 and A380-800.  Smile
 
WAH64D
Posts: 744
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:14 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:58 am

Your simple answer could very well turn out to be not far from the truth. Is B787-10 confirmed yet or is it just a possibility?
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 25):
BA are more than acutely aware that, if they commit to the 748i, "the competition" will flood the press with indirect references to the fact that they (BA's competitiors) are commiting to a brand new 21st century airliner whilst BA is plodding along with a re-hash of a re-hash of a design some 40 years old

I am not sure if such attacks will be factually justified.
I many aspects, the B748i is more up-to-date as the A380, beginning with the Engines
Then, specific operating costs, even if the aircraft is smaller, is nearly the same
So, who cares how long ago the original frames were conceived ??

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 25):
They also know that any route which fills one or two B744s today will more than surely support A380 ops in the near future.
So, as the fleet planner for BA, do you go for a small percentile increase in seats or do you plan for the future, bite the bullet and go for the A380?

I think that here the misconception which led to the theory that superjumbos are the future again appears
Except on a few routes, B744 routes will not increase their pax in the future, as the B787/A350 type of aircraft,flying non stop between airports which presently operate connecting to trunk lines, will drain passengers from these routes. And many of the B744 rotes operate from Airports not suitable for A380 ops, without investing a lot of money on adaptations.

Finally, the argument that BA prefers RR, being true, has not stopped them to order B772ER with GE.

aminobwana

[Edited 2007-07-17 23:20:28]
 
User avatar
autothrust
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:54 pm

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-

Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:30 am

What did a.net Member Insiderinfo said? BA has practically decided to take 5 A380, 40 748i, and some 787 if i remember well. And Boeing was surely number one at this order.

Could this new article point he could be wrong?  scratchchin 

IMO BA will like what they see when they visit Toulouse and see all prefabricated A380 in diffrent (EK,QF,SQ)liverys.
I wonder about their reaction when they see the A350 mockup...  Smile
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
SEPilot
Posts: 4918
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:36 am

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 35):
Is B787-10 confirmed yet or is it just a possibility?

A senior Boeing official (I believe it was Carson) has been quoted as saying that the 787-10 definitely will be built. He was not specific about its configuration.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:43 am

All this talk about the 787-10 is pointless. It hasn't had an industrial launch, yet people on here have been talking as if it exists for the last year. The 787-10 would destroy all A and B market 777s, Boeing have been very reluctant to do that, I'm not sure BA would change their minds.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
WAH64D
Posts: 744
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:14 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:48 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 39):
All this talk about the 787-10 is pointless. It hasn't had an industrial launch, yet people on here have been talking as if it exists for the last year. The 787-10 would destroy all A and B market 777s, Boeing have been very reluctant to do that, I'm not sure BA would change their minds.

As far as I see it they don't have much option. The A350 will kill the B777 stone dead. Its more a matter of Boeing either producing a B787-10 or handing the market to Airbus.
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
aminobwana
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:03 am

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 40):
All this talk about the 787-10 is pointless. It hasn't had an industrial launch, yet people on here have been talking as if it exists for the last year. The 787-10 would destroy all A and B market 777s, Boeing have been very reluctant to do that, I'm not sure BA would change their minds.

As far as I see it they don't have much option. The A350 will kill the B777 stone dead. Its more a matter of Boeing either producing a B787-10 or handing the market to Airbus.

As I already argued, I agree with WAH64D. Probably it will be not the B7810 as intended, but a larger an/or rangier aircraft to better compete with the A3510

I must say, the importance of eventual lost B777 sales due to the B7810XX is grossly exaggerate. If such potential sales are compared with the B787-8-9-10XX, plus the potential B748i, they are not so important. Of course, the freighter will remainand I am not so sure that some B773ER and N772LR will be sold anyway !

aminobwana
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22948
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:10 am

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 35):
Your simple answer could very well turn out to be not far from the truth. Is B787-10 confirmed yet or is it just a possibility?

Senior Boeing Commercial Airplane management have said they will build it. The hang-up is trying to meet everyone's needs within the current maximum taxi weight of around 560,000lbs.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 39):
All this talk about the 787-10 is pointless. It hasn't had an industrial launch, yet people on here have been talking as if it exists for the last year.

Because senior Boeing Commercial Airplane management have said they will build it. Now, they could all be lying, I suppose...

I will admit the specs we're kicking around are hypothetical, but those specs are within the limits Boeing has made public on the 787 program and take into account Boeing practices when it comes to stretches and such.

Quote:
The 787-10 would destroy all A and B market 777s, Boeing have been very reluctant to do that, I'm not sure BA would change their minds.

Their minds were changed when Airbus abandoned the A340E program and went with the A350(XWB) program. Boeing could have countered the former with tweaks to the 777. To counter the latter would require significant changes to the plane.

Boeing will certainly ride the 777 horse for the next five to ten years, but there will soon come a time that, like the A300, the 777 will only be good as a freighter.

The 787-10 and other larger or higher MTOW variants would allow Boeing to continue to have a legitimate and relevant offering in the 300-400 seat marketplace for decades to come.
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 4820
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:58 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 5):
Why would they order A330's at this point?

Because it's available. Anyway, I clearly said that a BA order for A330s would only happen in conjunction with an order for other Airbus widebodies.

Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 12):
I can see this being the lucrative order of the year for BOTH Airbus and Boeing

I agree that both will get something out of this but I wonder how "lucrative" each deal will be. If you were the chief salesman at Airbus or Boeing, how low would you be prepared to push prices in order to win this one?

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 13):
For the 100th time, we again discuss whether BA should order 787 or A350, 747 or A380.....



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21):
agreed. no new information here at all.

Well, 40+ posts so far so it's harmlessly amusing some of us. And if you find a thread uninteresting, then just close it and move on to the next one...

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 16):
Walsh was an enthusiastic GE supporter in his EI days

That's often quoted but I wonder if it's true. EI's first A330s were second-hand and came with GE. Thereafter, it made sense to order more with GE for commonality. What would Our Willie have done if the first A330s had come with, say, PW...?
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:11 am

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 35):
What did a.net Member Insiderinfo said? BA has practically decided to take 5 A380, 40 748i, and some 787 if i remember well. And Boeing was surely number one at this order.

I seriously doubt taht BA would order a fleet of five A380.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 29):
The current BA 763ER config is 24 CW, 24WT+ and 144WT. I am pretty sure that, with a 787-8, BA can add eight FIRST suites, plus an extra row or two each of CW and WT+, while keeping WT at 144. BA can go to 7 to 8 abreast in WT+ and 8 to 9 abreast in WT, which is going to add one to two extra seats per row over what the 767-300ER adds. And they will have wider aisles in FIRST and CW.

What routes are the 767-300s used on?
 
User avatar
autothrust
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:54 pm

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:18 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 42):
I seriously doubt taht BA would order a fleet of five A380.

Agreed, doesnt make sense but it seems he knows something more then we do.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 40):
Senior Boeing Commercial Airplane management have said they will build it. The hang-up is trying to meet everyone's needs within the current maximum taxi weight of around 560,000lbs.

That means they will give up the 773 ? Didnt someone at Boeing said they would eventually upgrade the 777? How much would a 787-10 development cost ?
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:27 am

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 43):
That means they will give up the 773 ? Didnt someone at Boeing said they would eventually upgrade the 777? How much would a 787-10 development cost ?

Depends on how much they change it. If its basically a stretched 789 and nothing else it could be done for a billion or even less IMO. As as example, the A330-200 had a development cost of $450m back in the mid-late 90s.
 
boeingfever777
Posts: 1990
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:35 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:29 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 1):
I think the problems with the A-380 production and the continual re-designs of the A-350 series may hurt Airbus chances a tad here, but not much more than that. I think this will be a split order for some A-380, some 777 & 787.

I can see that being an issue.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 25):
I think Boeing 777-200ER and Boeing 747-8i are unlikely.

Why did they order (4) 777-200ER then?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:44 am

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 45):

Why did they order (4) 777-200ER then?

As a top up, with nothing to do with the main order, if you believe that. If you don't, it suggests Airbus are in with a strong chance - BA would wait and order in bulk for discounts.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
vv701
Posts: 5773
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:42 am

I am quite surprised having read through this thread that there is no mention of what BA executives have said about their imminent long haul aircraft order. So what do we know from these statements.

We know the order will be to replace the fleet of 767s. But when this was stated it was not revealed if this replacement was for all of the fleet, just those currently in service with BA - they have some aircraft leased out to QF, or just those configured for long-haul operation that are currently in service with BA.

We know that the up coming order will include replacement of the 20 oldest 744s.

We know that the up coming order will NOT include BOTH the 748i and the 380, but the absence of one or the other in this year's order does not preclude the non ordered aircraft being ordered in the future (possibly when the remaining 37 744s are replaced).

We know that BA will have made their decision by September although we do not know when it will be announced.

While we know that the stands at T5 LHR have been built to accept the 380 we also know for certain that this does not mean that BA will certainly buy the 380. Here it must be emphasised that T5 does and will be owned by BAA and not BA. To suggest that BAA would build any new terminal at LHR that could not handle the 380 defies credibility.

We also know that the current conversion programme involving the reconfiguration of the BA fleet of 'Lo J' 744s with 38 Club World seats to 'Mid J' configuration with an increase to 52 Club World seats will increase the number of Club World seats in the BA fleet by 8 per cent but will see a reduction in the total seat offering at least until the four 772s already ordered are delivered.

Finally we know that BA is planning to purchase or lease second-hand 752s to operate a premium class only service from JFK to CDG, FRA and MXP and possibly MAD.

The rest is speculation. My speculation is that the up-coming order will include the 748i and that we will have to wait until the follow up order (replacing the remaining 37 744s) to see the 380 in BA colours. I also speculate that the up-coming order for the 748i will not be for as many as 20 aircraft as the strategy of focusing on premium class traffic gains strength and results in more lower capacity aircraft joining the BA fleet.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22948
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:45 am

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 43):
That means they will give up the 773W?

They have no choice. They can get another couple hundred or so additional sales over the next five to ten years, but by the latter half of the 2010s it will no longer be a popular model to order.

Quote:
Didnt someone at Boeing said they would eventually upgrade the 777?

There are "upgrades" and then there are "upgrades". Getting another 5% out of her should be doable without too much money or effort. Getting another 25% out of her would require prodigious amounts of both.

Quote:
How much would a 787-10 development cost?

A lot less then a complete overhaul of the 777.  Wink

I expect Boeing could do it for under $2 billion, including monies spent on the HGW versions of the 787-9 and 787-10 and a possible 787-11.

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 45):
Why did they order (4) 777-200ER then?

Because they already operate the type, I imagine.
 
boeingfever777
Posts: 1990
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:35 am

RE: BA Still In Talks With Boeing, Airbus On Long-haul

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:04 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 48):
Because they already operate the type, I imagine.

Really... wow...

He stated the 772ER was a unlikely order... I simple asked why he stated that being they placed an order in March.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 737max8, AC_B777, B757Forever, Baidu [Spider], BeachBoy, czpdx, flyingclrs727, Google [Bot], grbauc, jaybird, MAH4546, MaxxFlyer, N809FR, par13del, SEPilot, TWA772LR, United1, VirginFlyer, Yflyer, zkeoj and 279 guests