Flying-Tiger
Topic Author
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El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:31 am

Quote:
El Al Israel Airlines (ELAL.TA: Quote, Profile , Research) expects to have Boeing Co.'s (BA.N: Quote, Profile , Research) 787 Dreamliner jets in its fleet by 2011 to gradually replace its ageing long-range 767 aircraft, company officials said on Tuesday.



Quote:
When asked whether El Al would consider buying planes from Airbus, a unit of EADS (EAD.PA: Quote, Profile , Research), El Al Chairman Israel Borovich said: "There is a chance not just for Airbus but also for Embraer. The discussions are only economical. We have no commitment to anyone, only to ourselves."

http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articl...04_L17663003&type=comktNews&rpc=44

Honestly, with such a comment as above one clearly has to say that El Al has made up its mind and Airbus isn´t standing any chance in the long-haul contest. Interesting only to know that there is a narrow-body campaign going on as well, otherwise the Embraer remark doesn´t make any sense. Still, Embraer vs Airbus seems to be a bit odd as well.
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
AirSpare
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:34 am

Can I guess that this is another example of my tax dollars at work?  mad 
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
aminobwana
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:36 am

This was already posted on Topic B787 Orders Thread
 
LXA340
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:51 am

EL AL still in talkws with Airbus or considering it blablabla. They just do that to put preasure on boeing maybe to give them a better offer. The 787s will mostlikely replace the 767's however if at all maybe long term the Airbuses could be used to replace the short haul fleet and the 772's and a couple of A380's for 744's for the NY market as also metioned in some forum already.
 
ikramerica
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Thread starter):
Honestly, with such a comment as above one clearly has to say that El Al has made up its mind and Airbus isn´t standing any chance in the long-haul contest. Interesting only to know that there is a narrow-body campaign going on as well, otherwise the Embraer remark doesn´t make any sense. Still, Embraer vs Airbus seems to be a bit odd as well.

They didn't say E v. A, but even then, E195 competes with A318 on short haul regional routes.

And of course you could see the A380 as an even larger TLV-JFK shuttle.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
4xRuv
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:47 pm

Didn't they give up their 787 slots for 2010 a year ago?

[Edited 2007-07-18 09:47:53]
 
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PM
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:52 pm

Any planes in service by 2011 will have to be leased.
 
ly7e7
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:14 pm

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 1):
Can I guess that this is another example of my tax dollars at work?

Would that be your reaction to me buying a german car rather than an american one? US aid dollars have nothing to do with LY any longer.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
LXA340
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:50 pm

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 7):
US aid dollars have nothing to do with LY any longer.

Another reasn to fnnnaly get Airbuses
 
ly7e7
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:49 am

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 8):
Another reasn to fnnnaly get Airbuses

The only reason to buy Airbus/Boeing/whatever should be economical.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
aminobwana
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:07 am

quote=LY7E7,reply=9]The only reason to buy Airbus/Boeing/whatever should be economical.[/quote]

Nearly all the reasons are on the end economical

USA support economically Israel
Qatar has shares in EADS and business association with Lagardere
Russia needs help from Boeing and EADS to update their ailing aircraft industry
etc. etc

This is the real world !

aminobwana
[
 
kaitak
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:12 am

So, where will they actually get them? Of the leasing companies with 787s on order, LCAL and ALAFCO are based in Arabian Gulf countries and it's safe to say they won't be leasing 787s to LY! ILFC is said to be leasing 787s to LAN and a few others; does it have any left for this timeframe? Who is left?
 
LXA340
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:13 am

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 9):
he only reason to buy Airbus/Boeing/whatever should be economical.

Not saying anything else but LY was preasurised in the past to purchase Boeing no matter what. Honestly wth a fleet size of LY it would really make sense to have the entire fleet with Airbus due to fleet commonality and same use of cockpit crew or at least have a split between an only Boeing long haul and only Airbus short haul fleet or vice versa. Instead of having so many dfferent types in their fleet.
 
amirs
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:19 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 11):
ILFC is said to be leasing 787s to LAN and a few others; does it have any left for this timeframe? Who is left?

ILFC ordered over 50 more 787 - LAN only leased 6 of them.
 
kaitak
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:28 am

Yes, and apparently -9s only (the -8s apparently coming directly); however, LAN is not the only one to lease from ILFC and it appears that some ILFC 787s will be reserved from DL.

There is also CIT as well, which recently ordered five.

I guess we'll find out in due course.
 
IAD380
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:16 am

In comparison to other airlines, El Al has a relatively small fleet. Its ability to grow and expand is limited. Under the circumstances, it probably is economical for LY to have only one aircraft supplier. Also an airline the size of El Al only needs two or three types of aircraft. Although I am not certain, I would guess that LY has only bought or leased Boeing aircraft since the early 1960s. Switching the entire fleet to Airbus may be too expensive. Although I admire Airbus aircraft, I think that Boeing best meets LY's needs for the foreseeable future. A huge expenditure to purchase 2 A380s to serve one destination (JFK) is not a sound financial decision when 744s and 777s are already available. The 777s are relatively new and they adequately serve the main longhaul destinations - JFK, EWR, LAX, BKK, and HKG. Eventually, the aging and decrepit fleet of 767s could be replaced with 787s. The 787s seem well suited for many LY routes, such as CDG, LHR, YYZ, MIA, BOM, JNB, and PEK. The 738 may be El Al's best choice for short haul routes to Europe. Many of the 737s in El Al's fleet are relatively new. Over time, LY will retire its 757s, and the 738 would be a sensible replacement.
 
jfk69
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:26 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 14):
Yes, and apparently -9s only (the -8s apparently coming directly); however, LAN is not the only one to lease from ILFC and it appears that some ILFC 787s will be reserved from DL.

I am just asking since I don't know the answer, but what if they originally ordered 9's and then made an agreement to lease LY some 8's.....can they change their slot order from 9's to 8's if they give Boeing ample heads up???
 
LY777
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:31 am

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 15):
In comparison to other airlines, El Al has a relatively small fleet. Its ability to grow and expand is limited. Under the circumstances, it probably is economical for LY to have only one aircraft supplier. Also an airline the size of El Al only needs two or three types of aircraft. Although I am not certain, I would guess that LY has only bought or leased Boeing aircraft since the early 1960s. Switching the entire fleet to Airbus may be too expensive. Although I admire Airbus aircraft, I think that Boeing best meets LY's needs for the foreseeable future. A huge expenditure to purchase 2 A380s to serve one destination (JFK) is not a sound financial decision when 744s and 777s are already available. The 777s are relatively new and they adequately serve the main longhaul destinations - JFK, EWR, LAX, BKK, and HKG. Eventually, the aging and decrepit fleet of 767s could be replaced with 787s. The 787s seem well suited for many LY routes, such as CDG, LHR, YYZ, MIA, BOM, JNB, and PEK. The 738 may be El Al's best choice for short haul routes to Europe. Many of the 737s in El Al's fleet are relatively new. Over time, LY will retire its 757s, and the 738 would be a sensible replacement.

I DO agree with you; in the future, LY will be composed of:

-73G/738 (and why not some 739ER, who knows?)
-787s(8/9)
-777s
-744s (748 later maybe?)
Flown:717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, D8,D10,L1011, A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388
 
amirs
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:22 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 17):

-73G/738 (and why not some 739ER, who knows?)
-787s(8/9)
-777s
-744s (748 later maybe?)

yes obviously, but it should be

737, 738, 739er
788, 789, 7810
A380 or 748

no 772er
 
DAYflyer
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:49 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 6):
Any planes in service by 2011 will have to be leased.

Yup, since the plane they want is sold out until 2013. Perhaps this is the reason for the recent leasing company orders.
One Nation Under God
 
IAD380
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting Amirs (Reply 18):
yes obviously, but it should be

737, 738, 739er
788, 789, 7810
A380 or 748

no 772er

Why would LY retire the 777s? Most are new and efficient, and LY could fly them for many years to come.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 18):
788, 789, 7810

I am sorry, but I don't know the difference between each of these models of the 787. Which models would be deployed on which routes?

Besides New York, which routes are best suited for the 748?
 
jfk787nyc
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:26 am

The 748 has a bunch of routes EL AL can use the plane on.

JFK- Two to three times daily. Which is around 5 or 6 Planes alone. - WideBody
EL AL flies this route Three to Five Times daily 6 Days a week.

EWR- Very possible I am not 100% certain for now it is a 777 once daily. - WideBody

Paris- Daily and mix of 787 to 777 daily.
EL AL flies this route Two to Three times daily 6 Days a week. -WideBody

London- Once daily plus 777
EL AL flies double daily 6 days a week. - WideBody

Hong Kong- Once Daily 747
EL AL flies this route I believe four to five times weekly

Bangkok - I believe they fly this route 10 times weekly - 747

Just those routes are around 10 - 747-8i, That is a pretty sizeable fleet.
 
amirs
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:05 pm

I will look for the article online later, but now I read in the paper this morning that LY might even get leased 787 from ILFC as soon as 2009 and get their own 787 in 2013.
WHATEVER.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 21):
JFK- Two to three times daily. Which is around 5 or 6 Planes alone. - WideBody
EL AL flies this route Three to Five Times daily 6 Days a week.

Yeah but its mix 777/744

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 21):
EWR- Very possible I am not 100% certain for now it is a 777 once daily. - WideBody

Mix 744/777, will be daily 777 except thursday once the two new 777 fleet join.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 21):
Paris- Daily and mix of 787 to 777 daily.
EL AL flies this route Two to Three times daily 6 Days a week. -WideBody

Year round its usually mix 757/767.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 21):
Hong Kong- Once Daily 747
EL AL flies this route I believe four to five times weekly

Thats very ambitious to fly daily 748 - currently 4 x with 777, will go up to 5.

Quoting JFK787NYC (Reply 21):
Bangkok - I believe they fly this route 10 times weekly - 747

Not so much anymore, in the summer its 763 and in winter its 7/8 744.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 20):
Why would LY retire the 777s? Most are new and efficient, and LY could fly them for many years to come.

Well, first of all they can sell them off, and its only if and when the 787-10 will be available to replace them which would not be til atleast 2015/2016.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 20):
Which models would be deployed on which routes?

787- and -9 instead of 762/3 - JNB, BOM, LHR, CDG, ROM, MIA, ORD, BKK, YYZ, maybe add NRT/KIX, ICN, SYD, EZE.
787-10 instead of 777 - LHR, NYC, HKG, LAX, BKK, CDG
This will allow commanality for most of LY long haul in the a/c maintanence and the product they will offer.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 20):
Besides New York, which routes are best suited for the 748?

Only NY and maybe BKK - thats why I thought it better to have an A380.

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Thread starter):
Interesting only to know that there is a narrow-body campaign going on as well, otherwise the Embraer remark doesn´t make any sense.

There was an article today that LY was looking at starting TLV - Kiryat Shmona flights, maybe they are looking into starting domestic service.
Or maybe they are flashing at Nakash family that they can enter their "turf" if they (Nakash- Arkia) enter LY's (re Arkia getting 4 787's).

[Edited 2007-07-31 10:10:07]
 
LXA340
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:53 pm

LY should expand and offer Beijing 6X weekly. The route is supposedly going pretty well and I gues an increase in frequency if not even an upgrade in equipment to 772 could work out
 
LY777
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:20 pm

Quoting Amirs (Reply 22):
I will look for the article online later, but now I read in the paper this morning that LY might even get leased 787 from ILFC as soon as 2009 and get their own 787 in 2013.

Great. We will get rid of these 762s!

Quoting Amirs (Reply 22):
SYD

I highly doubt that LY will fly to SYD anytime soon
Flown:717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, D8,D10,L1011, A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388
 
amirs
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:30 pm

here is the article in hebrew concernin gthe leasing of 787 from 2009.
I will believe it when I see it in TLV ...

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/page...&subContrassID=6&sbSubContrassID=0
 
IAD380
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 23):
LY should expand and offer Beijing 6X weekly. The route is supposedly going pretty well and I gues an increase in frequency if not even an upgrade in equipment to 772 could work out

The expansion you suggests seems too ambitious. Until last year, LY flew to PEK once a week on a 767. Now it flies a 767 there three times a week. I would really be surprised if TLV-PEK has grown to the extent that it could now support 6 weekly flights on a 772. After all, El Al does not fly six times a week to HKG, which is its most profitable route in the Far East.

Quoting LY777 (Reply 24):
I highly doubt that LY will fly to SYD anytime soon

For now, El Al's arrangement with QF to transfer passengers travelling between TLV and Australia in BKK is probably the best way to serve this market. I would assume that flying from TLV to SYD would be very unprofitable, even if LY or QF could fill every plane because these flights would need to make two lengthy and expensive detours around Saudi Arabia, the Gulf, and later around Malaysia and Indonesia.

I never understood why opening a route to GIG/GRU and EZE has not been a priority for LY. Figures from the Israeli Tourism Ministry indicates that more than 100,000 people travel each year between Israel and South America, and most of the traffic is to Brazil and Argentina. I realize that this route also has its challenges. Perhaps, LY will finally start flying to GIG/GRU and EZE once it takes delivery of the 787-9.
 
jfk69
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:52 am

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 26):
For now, El Al's arrangement with QF to transfer passengers travelling between TLV and Australia in BKK is probably the best way to serve this market. I would assume that flying from TLV to SYD would be very unprofitable, even if LY or QF could fill every plane because these flights would need to make two lengthy and expensive detours around Saudi Arabia, the Gulf, and later around Malaysia and Indonesia.

I always thought there was an issue with the Australian government allowing an LY plane to operate there because of the armed security.
 
dallasnewark
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting PM (Reply 6):
Would that be your reaction to me buying a german car rather than an american one? US aid dollars have nothing to do with LY any longer.

Israel depends on US politically, economically, militarily. Without the help of US, Israel would get overrun by its "friendly" neighbors.

Southwest has a better chance of buying the A380 than El Al does

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 7):
Another reasn to fnnnaly get Airbuses

Don't get your hopes too high
B732/3/4/5/6/7/8/9, B742/4, B752/3,B762/3/4, B772/3, A306, A318/9/20/21, A332/3, A343/6, MD80/83/88, L1011, TU104/134, F
 
amirs
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:30 am

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 27):
always thought there was an issue with the Australian government allowing an LY plane to operate there because of the armed security.

Thats also the reason i heard why they dont have service to Brazil.
 
IAD380
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:10 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 22):
787- and -9 instead of 762/3 - maybe add NRT/KIX, ICN, SYD, EZE.

Can the 787-8 and 787-9 fly nonstop between TLV and all of these destinations?
 
LY777
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RE: El AL Expects To Have B787 By 2011

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:48 am

Boeing 787-8 range: 14,200 to 15,200 kilometers
Boeing 787-9 range: 14,800 to 15,750 kilometers

TLV-NRT: 9222 km
TLV-KIX: 8912 km
TLV-ICN: 8056 km
TLV-SYD: 14166 km
TLV-EZE: 12238 km

source: great circle mapper
note: these routes do not avoid arab countries
Flown:717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, D8,D10,L1011, A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388

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