Biddleonia007
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Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:33 am

Article in todays news regarding a QANTAS 747-400 that recently went through a maintenance upgrade offshore. Seems like some of the work has since been proven to be not the required standard and makes me wonder how many other QANTAS aircraft are flying with the same issue. This story originally appeared on a Current Affairs show and at the time may have seen to be some Tye of union beat up (QF has for years been trying to close down their Australian Maintenance Operations to save costs and move these off shore to cheaper ports for maintenance).

As a QF flyer, the title of Worlds Safest Airline wont last long if this is the result of QF's policy. They like to portray themselves as "Australia's Airline", but they appear to be this in name only as outsourcing of crews, maintenance etc is increasing.

By the way, is any one else aware of other airlines who have experienced this...savings in the name of profit vs safety??

Link : http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...story/0,25197,22093491-601,00.html
Biddleonia007
 
WesternA318
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:40 am

Quoting Biddleonia007 (Thread starter):
savings in the name of profit vs safety??

Valujet comes to mind, but, that incident was due to a third-party cargo handler fault?
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Poitin
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:04 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 1):
Valujet comes to mind, but, that incident was due to a third-party cargo handler fault?

Nope, it was their "maintenance" contractor, SabreTech, who improperly loaded "empty" oxygen canisters into the hold of the aircraft, which were actually out of date and not safetied. I suppose they went on to maintaining aircraft in darkest Africa because they disappeared soon after the accident. Not that Valujet didn't share some of the blame.
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Poitin
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:07 am

Just as a second thought, just how do you staple wires onto the airframe of a 747 -- it's made of aluminum.
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TBCITDG
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:15 am

I wonder whether there is any truth to comments about off shore maintenance workers forced to "sign-off" on thing irrespective if they have been done correctly or not?
 
nzrich
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:19 am

Unfortunately you cant just say just because a aircraft is maintained overseas that it wont be maintained properly !!! But where this particular aircraft had its maintenace obviously has a problem .. Otherwise you are saying many world class maintenance facilities around the world are not up to scratch .. Unfortunately as the old saying goes if you pay peanuts you get monkeys does come to mind ..
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Stitch
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:30 am

You'd think a division of SQ would run a tighter shop then this...

Guess they won't be getting the South Asia Gold Care contract.  bitelip 

Hope LH Teknik (sic) are on the ball...

[Edited 2007-07-18 03:31:47]
 
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jetmech
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:27 am

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 5):
Unfortunately as the old saying goes if you pay peanuts you get monkeys does come to mind ..

"Crappy, unsafe maintenance practices, so what, look how cheap we're getting it for!!"

Signed, Geoff Dixon.

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 4):
I wonder whether there is any truth to comments about off shore maintenance workers forced to "sign-off" on thing irrespective if they have been done correctly or not?

Such as entire blocks of systems checks supposedly carried out when power was never hooked up to the aircraft?

Regards, JetMech
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docpepz
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:38 am

I watched the report on the Seven website of Today Tonight.

I loved the way the report quoted "unnamed consultants" and "unnamed sources". Anyhow, if this were completely true, why are SQ planes not falling off the air? And what about the tens of airlines that send their planes to SIAEC for maintenance? Are they stupid? Plus, QF is sending yet another 744 to SIAEC in 2 weeks. Why are they doing so if SIAEC is running (apparently!) such a dangerous operation?

That aside, it is widely known that SIAEC can compete on price because it allocates fixed overhead costs to SIA, and only charges out the variable costs to its clients. From what I understand, SIAEC regularly bids for projects at a cost 25% lower than the other major MRO operator in SIN, Singapore Technologies Aerospace. This, even though SIAEC's cost base is higher (most of it due to the baggage that comes with legacy carriers.)

Plus, SIAEC workers do not earn crap wages. I know of technicians who walk out with S$8000 (which is about A$6500, but remember that a dollar in Singapore buys you what a dollar in Australia buys you and in the not too distant past our currencies were on par) a month including overtime and weekend shifts.

There are also massive tax breaks for MRO companies in SIN, and with a dollar that is now 25% weaker than the AUD, coupled with a company tax rate of 18% (compared to 30% in Australia) and very low personal income tax rates, all things being equal, of course it is cheaper to run an MRO business in Singapore.

SIAEC may not be the most efficient MRO company around, and I can understand how they manage to charge out at a low price, but if they really are indulging in unsafe maintenance practices, I would have expected SQ planes to be falling off the sky, and all the regulatory authorities of the world would ban aircraft from being maintained by them.

Also, it would be rather interesting to learn how QF conducts its vendor management. We all know how vendors work. You give them a scope, they perform according to the scope and what you pay them to do. They'll do no more. So, unless we get the full inside story of how QF and SIAEC managed this entire project in collaboration, it would be difficult to arrive at any definite conclusion. SIA itself, is known to be a terrible vendor manager (Just look at the mess with their outsourced Krisflyer call centre - They probably took the specs from the highest bidder and went to the lowest bidder and said "We want you to do what they're proposing, but at your price")

SIAEC has been maintaining 744s for 18 years now and SQ 744s haven't been falling from the sky, nor do they have tech delays that regularly plague QF aircraft arriving and departing from SIN.

Unfortunately, it is unlikely SIAEC is going to be drawn into any public debate, since it involves their client too. Thus we'll never know the full extent of the story. However, why is QF sending yet another 744 to SIAEC in 2 weeks if they are indeed that unsafe?
 
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EK413
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:31 pm

Quoting Biddleonia007 (Thread starter):
By the way, is any one else aware of other airlines who have experienced this...savings in the name of profit vs safety??

Alaska Airlines rings a bell...

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
Hope LH Teknik (sic) are on the ball...

Umm, JQ passengers stranded in HNL ring a bell anyone... The aircraft under went a maintenance check at LH Teckniks MNL I believe 1-2 weeks before the incident occurred...

Quoting JetMech (Reply 7):

Such as entire blocks of systems checks supposedly carried out when power was never hooked up to the aircraft?

Regards, JetMech

The reported stated a procedure which usually takes approximately 50 hours and 8 engineers was carried out in 8 hours by 1 one engineer...

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nzrich
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:02 pm

Quoting DocPepz (Reply 8):
SIAEC has been maintaining 744s for 18 years now and SQ 744s haven't been falling from the sky, nor do they have tech delays that regularly plague QF aircraft arriving and departing from SIN.

Could that be because the SQ planes dont stay in the fleet as long as QF planes do so the 744 fleet at SQ is probably younger .. And younger planes wont need so much maitenance ..

Also how many tech delays does SQ have compared to QF ? I would doubt it would be a plague but a older fleet will have slightly more issues its only natural .. You are also seem to be trying to make a connection about the maintenace of the QF fleet and how many supposed break downs they have ,considering SQ does some of the maintenance of the QF fleet , does that say something also about who maintaines the fleet as well ?
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airnewzealand
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:15 pm

Quoting Biddleonia007 (Thread starter):
As a QF flyer, the title of Worlds Safest Airline wont last long if this is the result of QF's policy. They like to portray themselves as "Australia's Airline", but they appear to be this in name only as outsourcing of crews, maintenance etc is increasing.

Facts are Facts mate...

95% of employees at the red roo are Australian. Its quite funny when peoplejump on the bandwagon and think QF have so many employees overseas! Big Mis-conception!

As for the engineering...its a wind up as the EBA is coming up! Anything to bring attention to the "problem".
 
anstar
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:52 pm

How many problems happen with maintenance in Australia? I'm sure quite a few, but the unions won;t leak any of those stories.
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:07 pm

Quoting Biddleonia007 (Thread starter):
This story originally appeared on a Current Affairs show

A Current Affair and Today Tonight are possibly the worlds most unreliable source of information in the world! They get no real stories so they get the tiniest thing and turn it in to this massive thing. They probably use 'special' staples to keep the wiring to the wall not normal work staples
 
Poitin
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:08 am

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 13):
A Current Affair and Today Tonight are possibly the worlds most unreliable source of information in the world! They get no real stories so they get the tiniest thing and turn it in to this massive thing. They probably use 'special' staples to keep the wiring to the wall not normal work staples

While I have no doubt about the quality of the TV show, I am really, really dubious about this "stapled" thing. Just how the hell do you drive staples into the aluminum of a 747? There are special AN clamps that have been around for 80 years, and there is lacing string, which has been around for even longer, although almost all wiring today is tie-wrapped with nylon ties -- at least during maintenance and modification. But staples? Give me a break. No way. I may have believed "glued", which is at least possible, but stapled?

I suspect this whole story is pure BS invented by someone with an agenda.
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SlovakFlight
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting Biddleonia007 (Thread starter):
By the way, is any one else aware of other airlines who have experienced this...savings in the name of profit vs safety??

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HAWK21M
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:19 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 3):



Just as a second thought, just how do you staple wires onto the airframe of a 747 -- it's made of aluminum

Are they talking of Swaging.
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Poitin
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):
Just as a second thought, just how do you staple wires onto the airframe of a 747 -- it's made of aluminum

Are they talking of Swaging.

I have no idea, but how do you swage electrical wires to an airframe? Sounds like a pure fabrication by some idiot who doesn't know the first thing about aircraft wiring. Now if they are talking about swaging electrical wires to connector pins, that is very different and done all the time. I have certainly done enough of them in my day, and I suspect just about everyone who works on aircraft has done it.

The more I think about this story, the more I put it into the pure BS category. Has anyone seen a story from a reputable source to confirm this "stapling" story and just how it was done?
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PapaNovember
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:48 am

Just started the video and found this thread at the same time.

Australia 7 "expose"
 
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:55 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 14):
Just how the hell do you drive staples into the aluminum of a 747?

With a pneumatic staple gun. Does nobody here ever do any work on their house? Pneumatic staple guns are powerful enough to drive a staple clear through a person's skull and out the other side.

I'm sure there are areas of the plane that are too thick to be stapled through, and certainly the frame itself probably is, but staple guns can easily penetrate most metals. I don't know what part of the plane they're claiming wiring was stapled to, but there's wiring all over a plane (not just the frame) and I'm sure there are plenty of places where a staple gun would work just fine.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:26 am

This article is confusing.Any added details available.
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Poitin
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:02 am

[quote=Spacecadet,reply=19]With a pneumatic staple gun. Does nobody here ever do any work on their house? Pneumatic staple guns are powerful enough to drive a staple clear through a person's skull and out the other side.

Any staple gun able to drive a staple in to .100 inch thick aluminum will also drive it right through the wire. And, if you where to drive staples into the aluminum plate, it would leave very ragged holes that would be prime points for future cracks to start.

As for driving staples through peoples head, how do you know about that?
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Panman
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 19):


With a username like that, an answer like that doesn't surprise me.

Let's see now. What size staple would this be? And what material would said staple be made from? Anything other than aluminium (or aluminium alloy) in aluminium structure and you get dissimilar metal corrosion. For an aluminium staple to withstand being rammed (by the pneumatic stapler) into thick aluminium aircraft skin, without being damaged beyond use, it in itself would would have to be quite thick. Not to mention that all holes in aicraft structure for fastener installation need to be protected from corrosion before the fastener is installed. Depending on what part of the aircraft structure is being worked on said holes also need to be hardened (whether by flap peening, shot peening, cold working, electro-chemical plating, etc).

Like Poitin said, the force needed to drive such a large staple through the aircraft structure would in turn damage the wiring and also create holes with sharp edges and burrs - stress points which will lead to cracking.

The weight of these staples would mean the aircraft would need to be reweighed and a new Weight & Balance schedule being created.

Not to mention that stapling of aircraft structure is not a procedure defined in any Boeing or Airbus AMM or ESPM that I have seen and as such would need regulatory approval before it can be performed on said aircraft.

I have to agree with my colleagues in the industry on this one. It's a fabrication. Utter codswallop.

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HikesWithEyes
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:34 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 9):
Alaska Airlines rings a bell...

Can you be more specific?
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jetmech
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:02 am

Quoting Panman (Reply 22):
Not to mention that stapling of aircraft structure is not a procedure defined in any Boeing or Airbus AMM or ESPM that I have seen and as such would need regulatory approval before it can be performed on said aircraft.

So, are you saying that just because something is not allowed by the AMM that it has never been done??? Are you saying that every maintenance practice is done strictly to every single line and letter contained in the AMM??? Are you saying that mechanics have some God like fear of the AMM???

Quoting Panman (Reply 22):
Let's see now. What size staple would this be? And what material would said staple be made from? Anything other than aluminium (or aluminium alloy) in aluminium structure and you get dissimilar metal corrosion. For an aluminium staple to withstand being rammed (by the pneumatic stapler) into thick aluminium aircraft skin, without being damaged beyond use, it in itself would would have to be quite thick. Not to mention that all holes in aicraft structure for fastener installation need to be protected from corrosion before the fastener is installed. Depending on what part of the aircraft structure is being worked on said holes also need to be hardened (whether by flap peening, shot peening, cold working, electro-chemical plating, etc).

Like Poitin said, the force needed to drive such a large staple through the aircraft structure would in turn damage the wiring and also create holes with sharp edges and burrs - stress points which will lead to cracking.

The weight of these staples would mean the aircraft would need to be reweighed and a new Weight & Balance schedule being created.

If any mechanic is either brave enough or dumb enough to use a staple to hold in wiring, do you really think they are going to consider any of the above??? I think not. Speaking of what is approved by A or B and what is not. I remember once seeing a 744 from a well known airline in the hangar, which was undergoing some structural work to a doubler plate around the keel beam to aft fuselage junction. The sheeties were horrified to find that many rivets where not in the places required. Some rivets that where meant go through the skin, doubler and stringer where in fact only going through the doubler and skin in a presurrised area. Broken drill bits where found in some holes and instead of removing them and rectifiying the problem, other rivets where placed randomly around the vicinity. What was meant to be a quick job was drawn out as the sheeties had to rectify the prior poor work.

Speaking of staples and the emergency floor lighting. In normal circumstances, the avionics people will fit the wiring for the emergency lighting and systems such as IFE. This is other done by the low tech method of carefully measuring out the wire runs on the aircraft floor, and then taping down the wiring to the floor boards. The floor boards are lightweight composite only, so punching through a few staples would be no real challenge. I dare say a good whack on the top of a desk stapler would easily do the job.

Ideally of course, all maintenance work would be done strictly according to the AMM, but in an ideal world, the spare parts and supplies you would need would always be there, the hangar would be well lit and at a comfortable temperature and there would never be any time or financial pressure on a mechanic to do a job, or any retribution if they spoke up and blew the whistle.

Regards, JetMech

[Edited 2007-07-19 01:11:18]
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QantasAirways
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:43 am

I actually watched the Today Tonight segment on Qantas and was quite impressed with their reporting! Normally TT is trash, but this story actually was quite credible and made the Qantas spokesperson look very stupid. He kept blaming it all on xenophobia.

With regards to the staples, nobody said they used staples to keep the plane together! They had some pictures of (i think) VH-OJH where some of the cabin emergency lighting wires were kept together by standard staples. I think it was the lights that run down the aisles.
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ilikeyyc
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:27 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 14):
Just how the hell do you drive staples into the aluminum of a 747?

There are plenty of items in the interior that are not aluminum. Floor boards and sidewall panels are two of those items. Furthermore, the article said that the problem was found on the emergeny floor lighting, which is usually laid out on the floor boards (sometimes on the sides of the seats). I'm not advocating the use of a Non-AMM procedure, but 250 pound ladies in high heels do more damage to our floor emergency lights than a couple of staples could do. And the floor lights in our airplanes are held in place with 2 sided tape (that is the correct AMM procedure, BTW).
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Panman
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:49 am

Quoting JetMech (Reply 24):
So, are you saying that just because something is not allowed by the AMM that it has never been done??? Are you saying that every maintenance practice is done strictly to every single line and letter contained in the AMM??? Are you saying that mechanics have some God like fear of the AMM???

Don't be silly. Been there done that. You and I know that's not going to happen. The most common one I have seen in all the organisations I have worked with is the old "two white knuckles" when the AMM calls for a relatively low torque figure. For me to get two white knuckles, I have to be applying one hell of a torque loading and even then my knuckles would be nowhere near white.

In fact any job you do, you are supposed to have a copy of the relevant AMM section with you!!! There are notices to that effect strewn all over our hangars. I regularly get called to do the APU service on our 757s and A320/321s on overnight A checks. Done it so many times that I can do it with my eyes closed (oil cooler, starter motor brush wear, starter motor clutch check, oil filters, ignition plug, surge valve filter, MCDs are the more common items). Going looking for the relevant AMM section would only slow me down.

paNMan

[Edited 2007-07-19 02:51:21]
 
Asiaflyer
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:11 am

Quoting DocPepz (Reply 8):
I loved the way the report quoted "unnamed consultants" and "unnamed sources". Anyhow, if this were completely true, why are SQ planes not falling off the air? And what about the tens of airlines that send their planes to SIAEC for maintenance? Are they stupid? Plus, QF is sending yet another 744 to SIAEC in 2 weeks. Why are they doing so if SIAEC is running (apparently!) such a dangerous operation?

It is well known and has also been mentioned here before that neither SQ or SilkAir are on top when it comes to maintenance.
Several airlines that has bought second hand SQ planes have been forced to do expensive maintenance work to catch up to normal standard.
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Shenzhen
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:26 am

It is really Qantas' responsibility to ensure that the airplanes that are maintained Overseas are done so in accordance with their Standards. Qantas should be regularly auditing these MROs.

Cheers
 
Poitin
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:27 am

Quoting JetMech (Reply 24):
If any mechanic is either brave enough or dumb enough to use a staple to hold in wiring, do you really think they are going to consider any of the above??

I would say he would last about 5 minutes, long enough for someone to come up to investigate the racket he was causing with the power stapler. While I have seen really stupid things done to airplanes, and I can believe your story about the repair you described, there is a limit.

Quoting QantasAirways (Reply 25):
With regards to the staples, nobody said they used staples to keep the plane together! They had some pictures of (i think) VH-OJH where some of the cabin emergency lighting wires were kept together by standard staples.

Stapled into what? The floor boards of the 747 are aluminum -- as I remember .030 inch, but that was a long time ago, covered by carpet. And just how many short circuits did they cause?

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 26):
There are plenty of items in the interior that are not aluminum. Floor boards and sidewall panels are two of those items. Furthermore, the article said that the problem was found on the emergeny floor lighting, which is usually laid out on the floor boards (sometimes on the sides of the seats)

The interior skins are light plastic, easily removed and while you can drive a staple into them they would be over any wires -- that makes it hard to staple wires to them. As for the floor boards, they are very definately aluminum. Do you really think they have wooden floors on jetliners?
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Shenzhen
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:46 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 30):
The interior skins are light plastic, easily removed and while you can drive a staple into them they would be over any wires -- that makes it hard to staple wires to them. As for the floor boards, they are very definately aluminum. Do you really think they have wooden floors on jetliners?

I believe the floors on 747 airplanes today are a honeycomb non metal material (probably fiberglass, light and doesn't corrode). The wiring would be routed down the seat tracks for the lights on the floor, which you ain't going to staple anything to. However, there is plenty of places in the sidewalls (where it runs to the batteries) to staple some wires to, throughout the cabin.

Cheers

[Edited 2007-07-19 04:06:07]
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:08 am

Quoting QantasAirways (Reply 25):
With regards to the staples, nobody said they used staples to keep the plane together! They had some pictures of (i think) VH-OJH where some of the cabin emergency lighting wires were kept together by standard staples. I think it was the lights that run down the aisles

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ilikeyyc
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:51 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 30):
Do you really think they have wooden floors on jetliners?

No. The jets I work on have honeycomb floor boards- no Al in them at all.
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rsg85
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:51 pm

Quote:
It is really Qantas' responsibility to ensure that the airplanes that are maintained Overseas are done so in accordance with their Standards. Qantas should be regularly auditing these MROs

Yes but i wonder how fast they would try pass the buck as if nothing was thier fault if there ever was an incident

Qantas's current line of thinking is probably along the lines of casa approves them, its cheap, if something does go wrong blame everybody else.

Quote:
No. The jets I work on have honeycomb floor boards- no Al in them at all.

Correct, the honeycomb is made of an epoxy type resin and cardboard from what i rememeber

Anybody know what aircraft this issue was with, or what qf 74's have had similar work done by the same company?
 
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EK413
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RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:58 pm

Quoting HikesWithEyes (Reply 23):

Can you be more specific?

Alaskan Airlines was experiencing diffculties in 90s and cut back on maintenance heavily which resulted the lose of an aircraft.. After investigating the course of the accident it was found the aircraft was released from maintenace without an over due rudder inspection being carried out...

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auslimbo
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Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:52 pm

RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:55 pm

Quoting Rsg85 (Reply 34):
Anybody know what aircraft this issue was with, or what qf 74's have had similar work done by the same company?

I was working at the SIAEC facility for a different (non-Qantas) project last Aug-Sep. As far as I can remember, they had OJQ in there for a D Check.

And don't forget, QF had approx. 10 guys there sent over from Australia to supervise the D Check. They don't just put their aircraft in a foreign hangar without any supervision. These stories are just unbelievable. I'm sure the QF Personnell has handled the situation. Comon, we've all had situations like this where some apprentice did a boo boo and the problem had to be fixed. This time someone took some pictures that got in the wrong hands and an ant became an elephant.

And as far as the SIAEC guys are concerned, they are very capable of doing their job. The only issue that I have had with them is that they know their own fleet inside out and do all jobs from memory. Therefore when it comes to working on different aircraft, they sometimes tend not to work to our drawings. But we kept a good eye on it and everything went smooth. Plus those guys work incredibly hard. Hats off to them.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 4549
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:27 pm

Quoting Biddleonia007 (Thread starter):
By the way, is any one else aware of other airlines who have experienced this...savings in the name of profit vs safety??

DL and CO send there 767s to china
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
swissairtaz
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2004 12:51 am

RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:51 pm

Quoting Auslimbo (Reply 36):
And don't forget, QF had approx. 10 guys there sent over from Australia to supervise the D Check

Yes thats right, but QF staff is only at the A/C during early or late shift never during night shift. One more thing comes to my mind: You get what you pay for. I know some QF engineers and i know they are extremely well trained. If QF would maintain the A/Cs at home this topic would not be here at all.

regards

charles
md11 forever
 
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jetmech
Posts: 2316
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:14 am

RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:04 pm

Quoting Auslimbo (Reply 36):
And as far as the SIAEC guys are concerned, they are very capable of doing their job.

Agreed. In no way, shape or form would I assume that the SIAEC mechanics are less than capable. The problem is that QF are screwing them to the wall to get heavy maintenance done for the lowest price and then some. It is this financial and time pressure from QF and I dare say other customers that is the root of the problems. Unfortunately, it will be the poor old SIAEC mechanic that has to wear it if anything goes wrong, not QF management.

Regards, JetMech
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
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HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 37):
Quoting Biddleonia007 (Thread starter):
By the way, is any one else aware of other airlines who have experienced this...savings in the name of profit vs safety??

DL and CO send there 767s to china

Are you saying Chinese Mx is not good.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
FirstTOflyA380
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:16 am

RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:45 am

SINGAPORE REJECTS QANTAS CLAIMS
The Australian newspaper, Friday 20 July 2007

Don't drag us into a domestic union squabble, says SIAEC
by aviation writer Steve Creedy

UNION claims of problems with the overseas maintenance of Qantas aircraft has outraged Singaporean officials, who say they have been caught in the crossfire of a Qantas union campaign.

Union officials and executives from the island state joined forces yesterday to condemn and reject claims by Qantas engineers that work done at the Singapore Airlines Engineering Company (SIAEC) was substandard.

The latest allegation concerned emergency lighting wiring crudely stapled together on a plane that had undergone a heavy maintenance check at SIAEC in August-October last year.

But SIAEC said yesterday a thorough review of its maintenance records showed it had carried out no such repairs in the aircraft locations identified by Qantas.

It said stapling electrical wiring was not an approved practice at its facility.

"Really, I want to express the feeling of outrage," SIAEC chief executive William Tan told The Australian yesterday.

"These allegations are not new. We've gone through them before, except for the staples, and every single allegation has been proven false not by us but by (the Civil Aviation Safety Authority).

"And really bringing us down, dragging us into the fight between the Qantas unions and Qantas is really despicable. I am really very upset with the developments."

Mr Tan said he was speaking out in the hope he could get some sense "into the whole ridiculous episode".

He said an original Qantas internal audit report on SIAEC's practices was proven incorrect by CASA.

He said recent publicity about the report had smeared the company's reputation.

It was a global maintenance and repair organisation with more than 40 airlines from throughout the world bringing aircraft to its facility.

It was audited by 27 aviation authorities, including Europe's EASA and the US Federal Aviation Administration, and underwent 107 audits a year.

"What really makes me feel unhappy and sad about the entire situation is that this false accusations really affected the public's confidence in aircraft safety and it is totally irresponsible," he said.

Mr Tan said he was confident SIAEC's standards were so high as to be able to withstand any scrutiny, and it would survive being caught in the crossfire of the Qantas disagreement on outsourcing.

He was critical of Qantas's handling of the staples issue and the fact that management appeared to confirm that SIAEC was to blame.

"The staples were found 10 months after the aircraft left the facility," he said.

"We can go through the records again with CASA, which I think is a very professional body ... and the records will again confirm that no work was undertaken in the areas that were highlighted by that report."

Mr Tan was also unhappy with inferences that there was a cultural difference involved in maintenance issues.

He said recent TV reports highlighted that impression.

"Some of the allegations talk about our engineers and technicians not being able to speak and write English properly," he said. "I think that is outrageous."

Mr Tan's criticism was echoed in a letter to Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association federal secretary Steve Purvinas from the SIAEC Engineers and Executives Union.

In the letter, general secretary Chua Swee Lee said the union was outraged "by the frivolous and false false allegations" against its members.

The union said allegations that work in Singapore was inferior was totally baseless and offensive. "These allegations have seriously harmed our reputation and questioned our integrity and professionalism," the letter said.

Mr Purvinas said last night that the union was not saying that Singaporean licensed engineers were inferior to their Australian counterparts but was questioning whether some companies operating outside of Australia had the correct ratio of licensed to unlicensed technicians.

"The Singapore engineers are trained to pretty much the exact same level as the Australian guys and they are just as good as we are," he said.

"What we are questioning here is not the quality of the licensed engineers in Singapore ... (but) the Qantas maintenance system that has allowed this to happen."
 
docpepz
Posts: 1706
Joined: Thu May 24, 2001 8:20 pm

RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:23 am

Quoting Swissairtaz (Reply 38):
Yes thats right, but QF staff is only at the A/C during early or late shift never during night shift. One more thing comes to my mind: You get what you pay for. I know some QF engineers and i know they are extremely well trained. If QF would maintain the A/Cs at home this topic would not be here at all.

Sorry but are you trying to imply that Singaporean engineers are not trained? And that Singaporean engineers are not paid well? As i said in an earlier thread, some technicians from SIAEC walk out with $8000 a month after all the overtime. Granted, the Sing dollar is now worth 25% less than the A$, but a dollar here buys you what a dollar in australia buys you.

I hope you do realise Australia does not have the monopoly on quality aircraft maintenance personnel and that Singapore is, shock horror, a First World Country with first world infrastructure and education institutions.

Quoting Swissairtaz (Reply 38):
If QF would maintain the A/Cs at home this topic would not be here at all.

Does this mean that every other airline in the world who doesn't do their maintenance in Australia has sub-standard maintenance? It's just like saying if Australians only bought Holdens, their cars would never break down.
 
rsg85
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:30 pm

RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:22 pm

Quote:
If QF would maintain the A/Cs at home this topic would not be here at all.

Are implying that qantas employees have more care for thier aircraft due to a sense of ownership, or that unions wouldnt have made the public aware if this was maintained in aus or that overseas mx is inferior.
There been some preety major issues with AC that are maintained here too, thier just kept hush hush. im sure most of the VH-T## 737's have worse issues than this.
I am starting to agree with some people, this really could just be the union stirring things up over outsourcing.

Quote:
It's just like saying if Australians only bought Holdens, their cars would never break down.

Haha thattll be the day
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:15 pm

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 13):
A Current Affair and Today Tonight are possibly the worlds most unreliable source of information in the world!

Fair suck of the sauce bottle Trueman, what can we expect when our Federal Wallopers seem to think that Liverpool (UK) is a suburb of Glasgow (also UK)? Or maybe they thought it was Liverpool (NSW), all about as informative at TT usually manages. You would think that some Federal air safety folk would have had a sort of final word, but then again, they might be related to the Fed Wallopers. And someone, somewhere in Canberra does not seem to like SQ.

Quoting Rsg85 (Reply 43):
I am starting to agree with some people, this really could just be the union stirring things up over outsourcing.

Could be. But you would really think that they could come up with something well documented as being faulty instead of a problem that nobody seems even to be able to understand.  Wow!
 
airnewzealand
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2000 6:00 pm

RE: Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!

Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:14 pm

Quoting Rsg85 (Reply 43):
Are implying that qantas employees have more care for thier aircraft due to a sense of ownership, or that unions wouldnt have made the public aware if this was maintained in aus or that overseas mx is inferior.
There been some preety major issues with AC that are maintained here too, thier just kept hush hush. im sure most of the VH-T## 737's have worse issues than this.
I am starting to agree with some people, this really could just be the union stirring things up over outsourcing.

OFCOURSE its unions! The gentleman who spoke on behalf of Qantas did an excellent job. They really tried to pull out all cards on him... Yeh, he stuttered...But wouldnt you when a picture is pulled out of NOWHERE, which you have never seen?? Its not like he can say..."HEY, it happens in Australia aswell...QF6 anybody??"

In regards to "where are the Qantas audits..ect..." HALF of the report came from their audit (which was leaked!!!!!)...which is where the current affair show got some of their evidence from. but what remains of that is QF know what is going on up there, and is endeavouring to fix the problems noted in the first "D" check.

Cheers

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