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EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:08 pm

Emirates wants to order 100 jets in the 300-seat range from a single manufacturer rather than splitting the fleet.

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20070718/BLOG01/70718006
 
AeroWesty
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:10 pm

EK wants a guarantee that if they order a 787-10 it will actually be built? I'm not really understanding this news item.
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EI321
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:33 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
EK wants a guarantee that if they order a 787-10 it will actually be built? I'm not really understanding this news item.

It says they are looking for a guarentee that the 787-10 will be built. ie if they were to order 100 787s now, they need a guarentee that some of those 100 can be composed of the -10, even if the 10 has not been launched at the time of the order.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:41 pm

I'm guessing that they want a guarentee that the 787-10 that they want (with the longer range) will be the one that is built. EK appear very keen to order the 787 but it's starting to smell like a XWB order
 
slz396
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:50 pm

It is clear EK wants the 787-10 to be shaped to their demands.

Currently the 787-10 is a simple stretched 787-9, with a serious range penalty stemming from that.

EK has repeatedly said they are interested in a plane the size of the 787-10, but they also have said they definitely want it to have the range of the 787-9 (at least).

The A359 seems to match EK's request, so now it is only logic for them to go to Boeing to ask them to come with a counter proposal (not just a simple 787-10, but rather immediately a sort of 787-10LR) or else...

[Edited 2007-07-19 11:52:51]
 
Emirates Skies
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:53 pm

Rumour has it that EK want to replace all of their A332s, A343s, and A345s with the A350 or the 787. I hope Boeing gets this one.

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scouseflyer
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:58 pm

Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 5):
Rumour has it that EK want to replace all of their A332s, A343s, and A345s with the A350 or the 787. I hope Boeing gets this one.

If they ordered the XWB (with some -1000s) they could replace everything apart from the A380 with the same basic type - like a sort of upmarket lo-co!
 
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:59 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 4):
it is only logic for them to go to Boeing to ask them to come with a counter proposal (not just a simple 787-10, but rather immediately a sort of 787-10LR) or else...

How amusing that the A350 is now being used as a stick to beat the 787 with! How the wheel turns...
 
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autothrust
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:01 pm

For me it sounds like a strong signal towards the 787.
Translate: If you dont guarantee me the 787-10, i will buy the A350 because no other choice.
IMO this is a Boeing order to win.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
slz396
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:08 pm

Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 5):
Rumour has it that EK want to replace all of their A332s, A343s, and A345s with the A350 or the 787.

That's not a rumour, that just common sense; the A359 and 787-9 and -10 are the successors to these planes EK currently operates.

As the natural replacement for the 77W is the A350-1000, it is almost a given EK will go for this plane at some point in time as its CASM is so much better (greatly important to EK with all their connecting traffic), so I think the A359 does have the edge here, since it offers full commonality with the _1000 and already meats EK's basic demands, contrary to the 787-10 Boeing has been talking about for some time now.

It is clear that IF Boeing does not seriously rework their design, the order will go to Airbus, however IF they do redesign, I still see no guarantee for the 787 and even less so for EK to never order the A350.

EK has always maintained they will order either the 787 or A350, but I am feeling more and more confident it is shifting to a discussion on whether they should order the A350 alone or with some 787s...
 
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:09 pm

Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 5):
Rumour has it that EK want to replace all of their A332s, A343s, and A345s with the A350 or the 787. I hope Boeing gets this one.

Rumour has it that Emirates want to replace all their A332/A343/A345/772/773/77W/77W with one family that is capable of doing that, the A350XWB.  Wink

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 8):
For me it sounds like a strong signal towards the 787.
Translate: If you dont guarantee me the 787-10, i will buy the A350 because no other choice.
IMO this is a Boeing order to win.

To me it sounds as if Airbus has the perfect product for Emirates needs, while the 787-10 is playing catch up. Hopefully by the Dubai Air Show all will be known.  Smile

Regards,
Wings
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vfw614
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:10 pm

Don't think so. Problably only a tactic to make Airbus not to feel too comfy and lower prices. It is plain evident that the only manufacturer that currently meets EKs requirements is Airbus - which gives EK a somewhat difficult negotiating position. I would be surprised if EK would go for the 787 just because Boeing says, ummm, err, okay, we will build it, without offering the product with all detailed specifications etc. etc.
 
philzh
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:20 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 10):
Rumour has it that Emirates want to replace all their A332/A343/A345/772/773/77W/77W with one family that is capable of doing that, the A350XWB.

That would make for an awfully nice-looking fleet, IMHO.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 10):
Hopefully by the Dubai Air Show all will be known.

Hmm... I keep thinking that I should go back to Dubai as soon as possible. I wonder if the Dubai Air Show would not make a perfect excuse to do so...  Cool
 
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:24 pm

My opinion, Boeing needs to sit with EK, talk , smile, assure them that they will take their concerns seriously, then continue to get the B-787 out of the door ontime, get its production process up and running, complete the B-748i / F, then focus on the B787-10 or whatever it will be called.

To me this is a case of too many irons in the fire right now. Boeing has over 600+ orders for a a/c that it has not yet produced - flying and in service - , its competitor has already assured other carriers that its next design - A350 - will be larger and more efficient than anything on the market today. Boeing has a larger a/c B-777 with extended range versions which is selling pretty well with slots a couple years out, so even if they commit to the 10 version that EK wants we are still talking about what, 6 - 7 years out? Think they should focus on the now, if they loose this 100 plane and its add ons to Airbus I don't think they will go bankrupt, after all, the B-787 order log dwarfs the A350 log and Airbus is still here and doing business, unless by some law of politics and economics, the same would not apply to Boeing???
 
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:30 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 6):
Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 5):
Rumour has it that EK want to replace all of their A332s, A343s, and A345s with the A350 or the 787. I hope Boeing gets this one.

If they ordered the XWB (with some -1000s) they could replace everything apart from the A380 with the same basic type - like a sort of upmarket lo-co!


The A350XWB is obviously the best aircraft to replace the entire A330/340 & 777 fleet @ Emirates

[Edited 2007-07-19 12:54:21]
 
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autothrust
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:02 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 10):
To me it sounds as if Airbus has the perfect product for Emirates needs, while the 787-10 is playing catch up.

Well thats a other way to see it.  Smile (i'm always a pessimist)
However for me it just sounds EK wants the 787 because they have more trust in Boeing (understandable after all issues) to deliver the specs promised and preferred Barrel Method plus GE/RR option. Thats why they dont want rely on Airbus on this very important order.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
WINGS
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:13 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 15):
However for me it just sounds EK wants the 787 because they have more trust in Boeing (understandable after all issues) to deliver the specs promised

Well apart from the lateness, Airbus seem to have achieved all the guarantee's for the A380 program and in some cases even exceeded them. Emirates trust and faith in Airbus is still strong despite delays to the A380 program, this is very apparent as they have placed additional orders/commitments for 12 frames in 2007.  Wink

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 15):
and preferred Barrel Method plus

This could be one possible issue that I suspect will have a big influence.

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 15):
GE/RR option.

I don't think that this is really an issue at this present time. Have both RR and GE committed to supply an engine for the 787-10? How do we not Boeing will not opt to go exclusive on future derivatives?

Regards,
Wings
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slz396
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:22 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 15):
However for me it just sounds EK wants the 787 because they have more trust in Boeing (understandable after all issues) to deliver the specs promised and preferred Barrel Method plus GE/RR option. Thats why they dont want rely on Airbus on this very important order.

If they woudn't have trust in Airbus, do you think they'd have placed 2 follow up orders for more A380s this year alone?

I think EK and Airbus' relation is perfectly fine: Airbus had problems with the A380 production due to a well-defined electrical problem, but they have overcome them and the plane itself definitely lives up to the expectations of its customers, so much even EK is clearly thrilled with it (just read the comments and look at their recent orders).

You may also believe EK has a preference for a certain production process (barrel over shells), but I rather think they just have a preference for a lower operating cost really, so provided the A350 can match or beat that of the 787, EK won't bitch on about it (which exactly is what we have seen happening), especially as EK knows that regardless of how good the 787 really is, it's structural design does top out well before the 77W comes in view, so an order for 787s does not give them a platform for this future replacement (contrary to the A350).

Summing al the disadvantages up:
less range
less capacity
less future growth built-in
...
If it would be an Airbus plane we'd be talking about, it wouldn't take long before the well-known comment about giving them away for free would be thrown in....

Oh, and have I mentioned their might be some vacant seats in the EADS board offered to the new large shareholders as from October???

Think about it: EK could be executing their business plan to span the globe with a fleet of 400 widebodies with just 2 tailor-made types from the manufacturer they co-own: the A380 and the A350. How much better can you have it as an airline AND manufacturer?
 
Emirates Skies
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:07 pm

Given that Dubai Airport (owned by the Dubai government, which also owns EK) has bought a 5% stake in EADS, there's another benefit to giving this order to Airbus.

Emirates Skies
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Stitch
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:10 pm

I offered my own comments on this article in the discussion from yesterday at News Covering B787-10 And Eventual Derivatives (by Aminobwana Jul 18 2007 in Civil Aviation)
 
mptpa
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:47 pm

I am not sure if EK wants to put all its eggs in the same basket. With 55 A380s and a couple of hundred A350s would be way too risky. Secondly, A350 is still narrower than B777, and with composite barrel/metal frames, they may feel inferior to the B787 in terms of technology, maintainability and passenger comfort. Finally, how would they feel second fiddle to QR since they ARE the launch customer for A350. How does this rivalry play out? What kind of pricing power would Airbus wield knowing that EK is exclusive to Airbus? They would control an extensive market power at EK that once in they may not be able to get out of.

So, EK has an advantage to maintain a dual supplier relationship with A380, B777 and B787 in the lineup. With such a large fleet, commonality argument washes away anyway and having these types would enable EK to tailor their routes and match up the types better.

This is just my opinion.
 
philzh
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:06 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 17):
EK could be executing their business plan to span the globe with a fleet of 400 widebodies with just 2 tailor-made types

I'm (currently) curious about everything EK, and thus this business plan -- is this (400 widebodies) something known, or just conjecture? It would be a rather sweet order for Airbus or Boeing, of course: 400 all-new widebodies minus say 60-odd A380s: 340 or so A350s or 787-10s... nice!
 
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:27 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 14):
The A350XWB is obviously the best aircraft to replace the entire A330/340 & 777 fleet @ Emirates

I agree with this. Emirates has been purchasing from the larger part of the mid-size market, and will continue to do so.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 17):
Airbus had problems with the A380 production due to a well-defined electrical problem

Actually, it was a series of well-defined management problems:

  • Choosing to not come to a common software standard
  • Choosing to rely on a unwritten piece of software to bridge the two software versions
  • Choosing to not communicate the failure of this software to other parts of the company
  • Choosing to blame the customer's cabin configurations as the culprit instead of the broken software.


No one has ever said there was an electrical issue. From all accounts, the originally designed harnesses worked just fine in the test lab, they just didn't fit into the airplane!

As much as you want to sweep this under the rug, its clear that customers can, should and do have concerns about Airbus's ability to deliver.

Airbus is working through its upper level management reorg, various shareholder issues, the whole Power8 thing, setting up the A350 supply chain, etc. I'm glad Airbus has given itself a long time to EIS on A350, because I think they will need it.

If these issues aren't a concern of someone considering the purchase of 100 airplanes, they really need to find another job!
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FlyingAY
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:29 pm

Quoting Mptpa (Reply 20):
I am not sure if EK wants to put all its eggs in the same basket. With 55 A380s and a couple of hundred A350s would be way too risky.

Isn't that what most American legacy carriers are doing all the time?
 
EI321
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:42 pm

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 23):
Quoting Mptpa (Reply 20):
I am not sure if EK wants to put all its eggs in the same basket. With 55 A380s and a couple of hundred A350s would be way too risky.

Isn't that what most American legacy carriers are doing all the time?

Yes, and I dont think AA or CO have experienced any problems whatsoever in operating and buying from a single manufacturer.
 
Poitin
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:51 pm

Quoting Par13del (Reply 13):
My opinion, Boeing needs to sit with EK, talk , smile, assure them that they will take their concerns seriously, then continue to get the B-787 out of the door ontime, get its production process up and running, complete the B-748i / F, then focus on the B787-10 or whatever it will be called.

An excellent suggestion. Given EK's continuing demands on both A and B, it sounds as though they want to play one off on the other. They went through this on the 748-I and where did that go?

And there is a second issue of just what is the A350 XWB? It is far from a finished design, and until Airbus commits to a design that Boeing can then counter, why should Boeing make any commitments? Since they can knock out the 787-10 before the first A350 is delivered, they have all sorts of time.

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 23):
Quoting Mptpa (Reply 20):
I am not sure if EK wants to put all its eggs in the same basket. With 55 A380s and a couple of hundred A350s would be way too risky.

Isn't that what most American legacy carriers are doing all the time?

By buying what? No American legacy carrier ordered the A380, and there are a few who ordered the A350. Perhaps you consider the A 320, A330, 737, 777 and 787 high risk?
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:52 pm

Quoting Mptpa (Reply 20):
Secondly, A350 is still narrower than B777, and with composite barrel/metal frames, they may feel inferior to the B787 in terms of technology, maintainability and passenger comfort.

Let me see if I've got this right. Because the A350 is "narrower than B777" it will be "inferior to the 787" "in terms of [...] passenger comfort". Mmmm...
 
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scbriml
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:57 pm

Quoting Poitin (Reply 25):
By buying what?

The original suggestion was that EK might not want to have their entire future fleet coming from one manufacturer.

Flying AY simply pointed out that some US legacy carriers are quite happy to only purchase from one manufacturer.
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Stitch
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:17 pm

This article in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer has much more meat to it - http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/324247_emiratesboeing19.html

Quote:
Emirates, the biggest Arab airline, seeks a guarantee that The Boeing Co. will build a larger version of the 787 Dreamliner before the carrier chooses planes to replace older aircraft and add routes.

Emirates, owned by the United Arab Emirates sheikhdom of Dubai, may buy 100 Boeing 787s or Airbus A350s in a deal with a value of at least $16 billion at list prices. In considering the 787, the airline wants a firm option of a bigger plane, Vice Chairman Maurice Flanagan said in an interview Monday in London.

"We'd like an absolute guarantee that they will make that aircraft by a certain date," he said. Boeing is not yet building a larger version, the 787-10, because only Emirates and Qantas Airways Ltd. have demanded it, he said.

As I said in the other thread, Boeing will build the 787-10 because I am sure more then EK and QF want it. The trick is, EK and QF may be the only ones that want 8000+nm range, which will require major changes to key structures.
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:26 pm

Quoting WINGS (Reply 10):
Rumour has it that Emirates want to replace all their A332/A343/A345/772/773/77W/77W with one family that is capable of doing that, the A350XWB.

Ummm...source?

Quoting EI321 (Reply 14):
The A350XWB is obviously the best aircraft to replace the entire A330/340 & 777 fleet @ Emirates

And why would Emirates want to do that? Many of those aircraft are practically brand-new, and its no secret that Emirates isn't shy about adding capacity (I heard something about 50 A380s...). I haven't seen anything to substantiate these claims.

Everybody needs to quit pretending that either manufacturer is a step away from having this one in the bag. It should be abundantly clear by now that EK is in no hurry to place this order, and you can bet that they've made arrangements with both manufacturers for the earliest slots available should they select that manufacturer's airframe. This one is nowhere close to being decided, stop with the "it's ______'s to win!" and "the _____ is obviously the perfect aircraft for EK!" crap.
 
Poitin
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:29 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 27):
The original suggestion was that EK might not want to have their entire future fleet coming from one manufacturer.

Flying AY simply pointed out that some US legacy carriers are quite happy to only purchase from one manufacturer

Isn't that true of airlines all around the world? The point is pointless. However, he did say "With 55 A380s and a couple of hundred A350s would be way too risky." which is obviously risky, given the delays in both aircraft.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
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clickhappy
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:33 pm

More of the same  bored 

Please Boeing, give it just a bit more range, a few more seats, a little more lift, and maybe we will buy it.

If Boeing wants to build such a plane for Emirates they need an iron-clad contract. Performance can be guaranteed via contract language, if the plane falls short of the contractual goals then Emirates can walk away.

Chasing the market for a couple of customers is not the way to do business. It sounds like Airbus has exactly what Qantas and Emirates want. You can't please every customer all the time.
 
Poitin
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:52 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 31):
More of the same bored

Please Boeing, give it just a bit more range, a few more seats, a little more lift, and maybe we will buy it.

If Boeing wants to build such a plane for Emirates they need an iron-clad contract. Performance can be guaranteed via contract language, if the plane falls short of the contractual goals then Emirates can walk away.

I suppose if EK wanted to buy -- cash on the barrel head with no refund -- 200 of the 787-1000, it might get Boeing's interest, but to design a longer-range-than-necessary-for-90%-of-the-market aircraft for EK merely makes the 787-1000 that much heavier and more expensive for that 90% of the market. Perhaps if EK would willing to fund up front the 787-1000EK, then it would make sense, but until then, I think Boeing should smile politely at EK, nod their head and say, "We'll think about it, really we will." A polite way of saying "Where's the money?"
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
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SEPilot
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 7):

How amusing that the A350 is now being used as a stick to beat the 787 with! How the wheel turns...

It's called competition.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
EI321
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 31):
Chasing the market for a couple of customers is not the way to do business.

Yes it is! If a customer is important enough manufacturers will sit up and listen.

  • JL & NH on the 787-3
  • WN on the 73G
  • DL & CO on the 764 (allegedly)
  • EK on the A380 (probably)


etc
 
kanebear
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 31):
More of the same

Please Boeing, give it just a bit more range, a few more seats, a little more lift, and maybe we will buy it.

 checkmark 

Performance guarantees? No problem. Match those with an order guarantee and a deposit and we'll get right on it.
 
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:10 am

Guys
Emirates is asking Boeing to go and build the -10, i am 100% sure that EK will not be the exclusive user of the new model. Don't forget that with the new EU blacklist many airlines are considering renewal to their fleet such as Garuda, PIA...etc. 787-10 would be the best for those because it is new and fresh into the market.
 
flysherwood
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 10):
To me it sounds as if Airbus has the perfect product for Emirates needs, while the 787-10 is playing catch up. Hopefully by the Dubai Air Show all will be known.

That's hilarious WINGS!  biggrin 

Now if they only actually had a real plane to sell. When is design freeze again?  Wink
 
flyabr
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:18 am

according to a recent entry in wallace's blog, there appears to be two camps chiming in on the 787-10 and what it's capabilities should be:

Mike Bair, head of the 787 program, said at the 787 rollout that the entry into service date for the 787-10 has slipped about a year, to 2013. The reason is that Boeing no longer has earlier production slots for the 787-10 test planes. Those slots went to eager 787-9 and 787-8 customers.

In an interview, Steve Udvar-Hazy told me there are essentially two airline camps that have emerged regarding the 300-plus seat 787-10. One camp wants a much bigger plane than the 787-9. Emirates and Qantas are in that camp. Qantas wants a 350-seater. The other camp favors a smaller 787-10, but one that would have more range than the bigger 787-10.

Hazy believes Boeing will decide on a version of the 787-10 that best meets the needs of both camps. He thinks Boeing will decide late this year or early next on just how big to make the 787-10.


[Edited 2007-07-19 17:21:27]
 
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 37):
When is design freeze again?

Ah, the old canards are always the best.

It may not be frozen yet but it's cold enough for SQ to feel comfortable enough to order a score and for thirteen other airlines and leasing companies to buy another 200+. Now, what are the chances that they might know a tad more than you do?

Of course, they could be wrong and may have just signed up for what eventually is frozen as a 3-seat biplane made out of wood and fabric with a range of ten miles. But, you know what? I don't think that's going to happen.  Wink
 
khobar
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 24):
Yes, and I dont think AA or CO have experienced any problems whatsoever in operating and buying from a single manufacturer.

I didn't know Boeing manufactured the A300. As they say, one learns something new every day, eh?

LOL.
 
boeing767-300
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 4):
It is clear EK wants the 787-10 to be shaped to their demands.

   There is no doubt EK are doing a QF in order to "screw" the successful tenderer as low as possible.

Quoting PM (Reply 7):
How amusing that the A350 is now being used as a stick to beat the 787 with! How the wheel turns...

You would have to say that Boeing and EK are in the best position here. With nearly 700 units sold to nearly 50 different customers and a strong income stream about to start they can well afford to go low to win this one. Should Airbus win this cut throat contest they will be wondering whether it was worth it. Like QF whichever way it goes EK will be the winner only Boeing is in a better position whether they win or lose.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 9):
As the natural replacement for the 77W is the A350-1000, it is almost a given EK will go for this plane at some point in time as its CASM is so much better

It always amuses me how excited the Airbus clan get over the A350-1000. Airbus began the widebody twin era with the A300 only they were short on range and the 767ER models eclipsed them at their own game.

Airbus responded with the A330 which is a damn fine plane but a little short on range. With this model they promoted the A330 as medium range and the 4 engine A340 as the long range option (dare I say it "4 engines 4 long haul)

Boeing in probably one of their smartest moves in the last 15 years trumped Airbus by taking a 'punt' in the development of high thrust engines required for design missions. The 77W and even the 772ER epitomise everything that Airbus didn't do. They did not have a long range large payload capable twin capable of mixing it with the 772ER and C market versions.

Airbus whilst lost amongst A380 development and problems did not even see the 787 coming and when they did they readily dimissed the threat and by their own admission were well and truly caught napping.

There first serious response did not measure up to 787 and the market clearly told them so.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 17):
If they woudn't have trust in Airbus, do you think they'd have placed 2 follow up orders for more A380s this year alone?

I think EK and Airbus' relation is perfectly fine: Airbus had problems with the A380 production due to a well-defined electrical problem, but they have overcome them and the plane itself definitely lives up to the expectations of its customers, so much even EK is clearly thrilled with it (just read the comments and look at their recent orders).

But you conveinantly forgot to mention the "dog" and this is the bitter pill that EK must swallow. I remember very clearly EK ordering the A346 and all the fanfare that went with it. EK had huge plans for A346 and in fact they also order some 77W (leased). EK had concerns about 77Ws hot and high performance, not enough thrust etc.

As everybody now knows the 77W beat performance targets and killed the A346 stone dead. EK never took any of the A346 and refused point blank to take them. They have since ordered truckloads of 77W along with many other RR powered 777 airlines who have also embraced the GE powered freak.

I believe it was this predicament that caused Airbus to rethink their A350 stratergy. They were on a hiding to nothing going head to head with the mega successful 787. They also had to deal with the amazing success of 77W as well as the 787. The 787/777 combo was killing them. In 2005 777 killed A340 154 to 15 which translates to a TEN thanks SNATH) to 1 drubbing.

I believe Airbus has postioned the A350 in about as good a position as they can although it is a difficult task to optimise a plane capable as a 77W but also against the 787-8. Take note that the 30 787 for QR may indicate that they may have aimed a little high (why else would QR order 787 as well as A350) Also the of the 700 odd 787s sold the majority are the smallest version and to a large number of customers as well. People seem to forget that one of the big selling points for 744 was RANGE. You needed one to do Singapore Europe nonstop period end of story. Then came the 772ER and that started to do to the 744 what the 767 did to the 747 Trans Atlantic market. Soon a 788 will be able to do the same long range journeys that were once the exclusive domain of the largest Jets and with lower CASM and proportionately far better freight carrying ability over 744/A380. Remember that CASM is only better (sometimes) if you can fill the damn plane. It is no coincidence that Airlines have been progressively downsizing over the last few years and there is a market for a limited number of A380s in certain markets

Boeing is well position to garner a larger share of customers and then grow them into larger derivatives as they are developed. Airbus were in the same position with the A330 but it never developed into the long range twin that the 777 became and hence a lot of customers operated A330/777 side by side. The 787/A350 will be a similar situation excepting that the 788 will be able to perform any long range mission the A350 can and the plans of some of the new 788 operators will be interesting indeed!! The 787-10 to a certain degree has been a victim of its smaller sibling success. Boeing don't need offer one yet they are content to wait a little longer to see what Airbus are offering or guaranteeing would be more the point. The barrel versus panel approach will be interesting but I suspect the normal engineering chronological order for these would have been panels first and then later barrels but time will tell thats for sure. I believe Airbus have gone for panels to keep development time and cost down. This has been and will be debated in other threads.

I remember a chart posted not that long ago that showed the 358 359 3510 all with around 8500nm range. This is the problem that EK may have with the A350, it sound great looks great but the engineering department still have to engineer the promises. They don't have to look back far to remember the A346 debacle.

One thing is for sure they know what they want they are just playing games to get the best possible price. The biggest problem for Airbus is that the A3510 may or may not out do the 77W. It should be because its 10 years newer!!! arriving 10 years after 77W. Even if the A3510 is better I doubt in current specs it will have the physical payload uplift(95K powerplants) the 77W will continue to sell well in the interim because the A3510 is still 7 odd years away just like the A330 continues to sell well despite the technological advances of the 787 because it is still a damn good plane and available relatively quickly.ame will apply to the 77W in 2011 12 and 13

[Edited 2007-07-19 17:39:24]
 
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Stitch
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 31):
If Boeing wants to build such a plane for Emirates they need an iron-clad contract. Performance can be guaranteed via contract language, if the plane falls short of the contractual goals then Emirates can walk away.

And that may be why EK keeps haranguing Boeing to build the 787-10...

The A350 family continues to add MTOW, yet lose range. Mr. Gallois has evidently guaranteed a set of performance metrics which have yet to be made public, so Airbus' engineers may be finding they need to increase MTOW to meet them.

Frankly, with the expansion EK intends, I still believe that 100 planes won't be all they order, nor do I believe that if the first 100 are A350s or 787s, the next 100 will also be the same type, nor the 100 after that...

So I expect EK wants a 787-10 both as a hedge if the A350 doesn't "hit the numbers" (just as they want an A350 in case the 787 doesn't "hit the numbers") and as another family of arrows for their quiver to maximize their fleet's capabilities.
 
SNATH
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:32 am

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 41):
154 to 15 which translates to a 15 to 1 drubbing.

You will find that this is 10-to-1.  Smile

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
flysherwood
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting PM (Reply 39):
may not be frozen yet but it's cold enough for SQ to feel comfortable enough to order a score and for thirteen other airlines and leasing companies to buy another 200+. Now, what are the chances that they might know a tad more than you do?

Ah, but the biggest owner of Airbus jets in the world is unconvinced! And as the largest customer / owner of Airbus jets, Sir Hazy may have them change it again!  Wink
 
flysherwood
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting PM (Reply 39):
Ah, the old canards are always the best.

It may not be frozen yet but it's cold enough for SQ to feel comfortable enough to order a score and for thirteen other airlines and leasing companies to buy another 200+.

Oh one other thing, how many are firm orders and how many are MOU's of the 200+. The single largest purchase of 80 is an MOU at this point.  Yeah sure
 
tistpaa727
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:55 am

As is said in every EK thread, they just like to hear themselves speak. I do not see this as a sign the order will go to Boeing, but more a sign to Airbus that they are not 100 percent sold on the 350 (nothing to do with capability, more so to keep the discounts coming). If Boeing does guarantee the 787-10, I wouldn't be surprised to see EK flip this and make something ridiculous up for Airbus to do to see if they can get Boeing to "keep the discounts coming". Its all sales tactics and for airlines like EK, they seem to be able to get away with these types of demands/statements.
Don't sweat the little things.
 
dank
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 45):
Oh one other thing, how many are firm orders and how many are MOU's of the 200+. The single largest purchase of 80 is an MOU at this point.  

Uhhh. No. QR placed a firm order at Paris. According to Airbus as of 6 July, there are 154 firm orders and 100 commitments:

Quote:

At the 47th Paris Air Show alone, 141 firm orders were signed for the A350 XWB. Customers include Qatar, Aeroflot, Singapore Airlines and lessors Alafco and CIT. In addition the new A350 XWB received commitments from four additional customers: US Airways, Kingfisher, Libyan Airlines and Afriqiyah, followed by a subsequent commitment from TAM.

http://www.airbus.com/en/myairbus/headlinenews/index.jsp
 
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scbriml
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:23 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 45):
The single largest purchase of 80 is an MOU at this point. sarcastic 

It would be fine raising your eyebrows if you were actually correct. wink 

QR signed a firm order at Paris for 80 A350s, including 20 -1000s (which some here claim doesn't even exist!)
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10

Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 17):
Think about it: EK could be executing their business plan to span the globe with a fleet of 400 widebodies with just 2 tailor-made types from the manufacturer they co-own: the A380 and the A350. How much better can you have it as an airline AND manufacturer?

Bingo. Impressive stuff huh?

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 41):
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 4):
It is clear EK wants the 787-10 to be shaped to their demands.

?? There is no doubt EK are doing a QF in order to "screw" the successful tenderer as low as possible.

Thats just smart business sense. I would be very upset if an airline I was a s/h in DIDNT do this.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???

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