slcdeltarumd11
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DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:53 am

From all of the things i have seen it looks like DL service to Aspen ASE seems to be a real winner. They are up to 4 CRJ 700 flights a day from Salt Lake City in the winter.

In the summer it looks like they can sustain three flights a day i would think the winter could really go to five mabe. I would imagine this would be a real money maker as fares during the winter shoot up very high. I wonder if DL could get a CR-9 in and out of ASE so they could offer an F class product. I am guessing a CR7 is a good plane out of ASE since united seems fly the same aircraft in the winter.

I can see this flight workign very well for the same reasons that SLC-JAC seems to work for DL. Connecting the ski industry and rich people from Park City to Aspen. i am sure that DL could profit from a SLC-EGE non stop also but maybe seasonally only as for daily service they only offer a single flight in and out of ATL and every other ski destination in Colorado has service to SLC now some exclusively

From being at the Aspen Airport i am sure there is a huge weight restriction and limits to total passengers allowed on each flight. Anyone have any idea how full these planes are getting and if they often sell out? Frequent flyer is really tought to get on these and thats not even only during ski season its all year long
 
Tornado82
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:09 am

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Thread starter):
I am guessing a CR7 is a good plane out of ASE since united seems fly the same aircraft in the winter.

Delta and United's ASE CR7 service are both provided by Skywest. Skywest went through the trouble of the proving runs and so forth to get the CR7 into ASE. Supposedly the CR7 is about as tight of a fit as it gets, so don't hold your breath for the CR9.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:12 am

Is the CRJ better out of ASE i am guessing the EMB are worse, its a tough airport and it very high in elevation. anyone have any idea how many seats they keep empty per flight due to the weight?? would a regular CRJ have a restriction?
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:16 am

CRJ has no slats so i bet it would be worse than the CR7.


Probably lots of LAX-ASE traffic going via SLC
 
graphic
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:16 am

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Thread starter):
every other ski destination in Colorado has service to SLC now some exclusively

Every ski destination in Colorado has service to Denver.
Demand Media fails at life
 
Tornado82
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 2):
Is the CRJ better out of ASE i am guessing the EMB are worse,

I would think the E-170 could pull it off if the CRJ-700 does, but then again the 170 is a bit more plane than the CRJ-700 so maybe not. The 170 is a real rocket ship though. Nobody has a reason to try the 170 at ASE, since it wouldn't be able to make it ASE-US East hubs, and DL/UA already have the CRJ-700 going to ASE. Unless now that NW/Compass has them they may look into it.
 
Tornado82
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 3):


Probably lots of LAX-ASE traffic going via SLC

Skywest runs LAX-ASE direct as well.
 
azjubilee
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:30 am

NO thanks, I'll drive if I ever need to get to ASE. I'd hate to see what happens should they bag one at V1.


AZJ
 
OOer
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:55 am

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 2):
would a regular CRJ have a restriction?

Actually it would have no restrictions at all, as the CRJ200 would not even be able to operate commercial flights in and out of ASE...the 700 barely got the ok from the FAA...you can just forget the -200 even having a shot!!! With no slats, and underpowered engines I highly doubt it could make the approach!
 
xpfg
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:35 am

I just flew into ASE yesterday on a CR7 from DEN on United Express, and flew back on DL through Salt Lake. Going into ASE on United Express there were about 15 people, while going on on DL there were 22. The load factors into and out of ASE are not very high at all on any carrier, with the exception of the flights on YV's Dash 8's, which appear to be fairly well sold.

Question for some though....

When looking at the DL route map, it shows ASE and MRY as both now seasonal markets. Anyone know the story behind this?
 
ChinaClipper40
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:32 am

Quoting OOer (Reply 8):
The 700 barely got the ok from the FAA

I was frankly surprised that the CRJ-700 got the ok to operate into ASE. Having flown into and out of Aspen scores of times, I should have thought that it needed real STOL capabilities, like what the BAE-146s and AVROs used to provide. But if the CRJ-700 can do it, why can't the E-170? Similar engines, similar thrusts, similar empty operating weights. What am I missing? Does the CRJ-700 have some superiority over the E-170 in terms of slats, flaps, or other devices? Didn't Embraer specifically develop a "steep approach mode" capability for the E-170 so that it could be certified for use into LCY? Wouldn't that same "steep approach mode" capability allow it to operate successfully into ASE? What am I missing here? Thanks.

ChinaClipper40
 
ASEFlyer
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:37 am

Quoting Xpfg (Reply 9):
The load factors into and out of ASE are not very high at all on any carrier,

Really? What are the numbers?

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 7):
NO thanks, I'll drive if I ever need to get to ASE. I'd hate to see what happens should they bag one at V1.

It is a gorgeous flight, like landing in the Alps or something.
 
azjubilee
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:49 am

I know it's a georgeous flight... I just won't fly in there unless it's on an appropriate a/c for the mission.. like the 146/avro. I'm too keenly aware of what it takes to fly in and out of ASE and won't do it in a CRJ.


AZJ
 
uadc8contrail
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:04 am

maybe goldenshield can confirm this....i was told that one of the conditions for letting the 700s into ase was that once you continue the approach after getting clearance to land, you have to land...as in you can not declare a missed approach as the turn on a missed approach is so tight in ase that it would not make it. i have seen a few crazy landings there from the private terminal...so scary that as the a/c was clearing over highway 82 the tail lifted up and the nose dipped down...the pilot corrected it but it looked like the front tires set down about the same time as the mains.....
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
Tornado82
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:21 pm

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 13):
i was told that one of the conditions for letting the 700s into ase was that once you continue the approach after getting clearance to land, you have to land...as in you can not declare a missed approach as the turn on a missed approach is so tight in ase that it would not make it.

So you crash in an effort to save a crash? Doesn't make all that much sense to me. The missed approach is only an issue if done on 1 engine, right?
 
c680
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:29 pm

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 7):
I'd hate to see what happens should they bag one at V1.

You wind up on route 82 near the turn for Snowmass....
My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
 
uadc8contrail
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:54 pm

So you crash in an effort to save a crash? Doesn't make all that much sense to me. The missed approach is only an issue if done on 1 engine, right?


tornado82.......so you crash in an effort to save a crash?????that post doesnt make much sense either as why would any one in a cr7 or any aircraft for that matter continue a approach prior to clearance if they didnt feel they could make it all the way in???make a left turn and head for the dbl vor till the wx conditions improve rite????
bus driver.......move that bus:)
 
Tornado82
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:07 pm

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 16):
continue a approach prior to clearance if they didnt feel they could make it all the way in???make a left turn and head for the dbl vor till the wx conditions improve rite????

Missed approaches happen all the time irregardless to vis/cigs, and especially at mountain airports. A rogue wind gust or shear can occur at any time during an approach, and if it causes the approach to become unstabilized it necessitates a go-around procedure. Not only that, but many times when an airport isn't very busy (ASE surely isn't ORD) the landing clearances are given many miles out... meaning there's all that much more time for the approach to deteriorate.

Nobody ever crashed into the air above them before, but lots of people have crashed into runways, airfields, and mountains before. When in doubt, climb... and come back around to try again.
 
skyrat
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:25 pm

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 2):
anyone have any idea how many seats they keep empty per flight due to the weight??

It all depends on weather conditions. They only land the CR7 on RWY 15 and only takeoff on RWY33. I have seen where there was a tailwind and they took all pax and no bags. It's different every flight.

As for the loads. It's not the ski season. Skywest and Mesa together had 20-30 flights a day during the winter. ASE-SLC, ASE-ORD, ASE-DEN, ASE-SFO, and ASE-LAX.

I have heard that they have to commit to land so many miles out. They get "spooked" a lot when visibility drops and usually diverts to DEN or some other surrounding mountain city. It's a real fun approch.
flown:146,a319,a320,717,722,733,735,738,744,752,763,772,crj2,crj7,crj9,dc9,dc10,e135,e145,e170,e175,frj,md80
 
Goldenshield
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:35 pm

Quoting Skyrat (Reply 18):
I have heard that they have to commit to land so many miles out. They get "spooked" a lot when visibility drops and usually diverts to DEN or some other surrounding mountain city. It's a real fun approch.

Skyrat says it right there.

As far as loads, in the winter, it's great all around. In the summer, unless it's DEN or SLC, it's never a full bird, but since it's summer, no one flies to or from there anyhow.

Quoting ChinaClipper40 (Reply 10):
But if the CRJ-700 can do it, why can't the E-170?

The E-170 is a bit too much airplane for the local regulations.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 1):
Supposedly the CR7 is about as tight of a fit as it gets, so don't hold your breath for the CR9.

As far as numbers go, it's identical to the -700. Since DL only uses 76 seats, you can theoretically get anywhere west of the Mississippi. The CRJ-900 cannot fly the localizer into ASE, though, because of its approach speed.
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ChinaClipper40
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:26 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 17):
When in doubt, climb... and come back around to try again.

Yes, but given that the terrain rises so steeply - and to such heights - to the south, east, and north of that viciously narrow box canyon, is it possible for a CRJ-700 to climb out successfully once down in the canyon and lined up for landing? I would appreciate it if some pilot would chime in here with expert knowledge. I thought that a critical advantage of the BAE-146s and AVROs formerly used into ASE was that their STOL capabilities allowed them to climb more easily out of an aborted landing (circling within the canyon if necessary). No?

ChinaClipper40
 
apodino
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:54 pm

I spoke with a high ranking Air Wisconsin official about this not long ago. (Air Wisconsin as you may remember, operated the 146's into ASE until United replaced Air Wisconsin with Mesa). He told me that the Skywest 10-7 page for ASE states "Terrain clearance on a balked landing on single engine is not guaranteed". I have major problems with this. First of all, anyone who knows anything about aviation knows that performance data used by the airlines always assumes loss of an engine. And the max landing weight is supposed to account for a missed approach on a single engine. Back when the 146 was operating, it wasn't that big a deal, because if you lose one engine you still had three others (Not to start the 4 engines 4 long haul debate). The other thing the 146 had was that the 146 was authorized to circle to land 33 if need be (Pilots were trained to do this), and the 146 could depart from 15 (They had performance and procedures for this too). Most people I have spoken to say that they would never in their life fly into ASE on a CRJ of any kind, no matter what the numbers might say. I tend to agree. RIght now you have two options into ASE, the CRJ-700 by Skywest, or the Dash 8 with Mesa. As much as I hate to admit this, I would feel much safer on the Dash 8 than I would on the CRJ, even though its Mesa operating it. Otherwise, its probably better just to fly into EGE and drive.

The other thing is, I don't know how the CRJ-700 compares to the E170 performance wise, having not worked either plane. But I do know that the 170 does have the steep approach certification, which is helpful in ASE with a 6 degree approach. Plus it seems to have better climbing characteristics, and probably can take more passengers without a weight restriction. Truthfully speaking though, of all the planes on the market right now, the best plane for the job is probably the Q400. However, ASE passengers have spoken and they say they want Jets, not props, for ASE. In a way, its kind of ashamed that Dornier went under, because I think the DO-328 Jet is perfect for the job. Then again, the 146 was too. But they were gas guzzlers.
 
azjubilee
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:46 pm

Apodino - spot on! If it isn't a 146/avro I'm not going. It's rediculous to restrict a go around! Let alone not be able to have performance that cannot ensure terrain clearance with one engine out. Again... I'll happily drive to ASE should I have to go there. The AirWisky 146 and Mesaba avro drivers were the best pilots and operators for ASE. It's too bad that with the demise of those fleets, safety into/out of ASE has decreased.


AZJ
 
Tornado82
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:01 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 21):
He told me that the Skywest 10-7 page for ASE states "Terrain clearance on a balked landing on single engine is not guaranteed"

As I was saying many posts ago... there are only problems if you drop an engine.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 14):
The missed approach is only an issue if done on 1 engine, right?



Quoting ChinaClipper40 (Reply 20):
Yes, but given that the terrain rises so steeply - and to such heights - to the south, east, and north of that viciously narrow box canyon, is it possible for a CRJ-700 to climb out successfully once down in the canyon and lined up for landing?

2 engines, yes, or it never would have been certified.
 
apodino
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 23):
As I was saying many posts ago... there are only problems if you drop an engine.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 14):
The missed approach is only an issue if done on 1 engine, right?



Quoting ChinaClipper40 (Reply 20):
Yes, but given that the terrain rises so steeply - and to such heights - to the south, east, and north of that viciously narrow box canyon, is it possible for a CRJ-700 to climb out successfully once down in the canyon and lined up for landing?

2 engines, yes, or it never would have been certified.

Read my post again. Performance data used has to always assume the loss of an engine. Yes it might only be an issue if you lose an engine, but for performance purposes, you have to always assume an engine loss.
 
Tornado82
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:35 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 24):

Read my post again. Performance data used has to always assume the loss of an engine. Yes it might only be an issue if you lose an engine, but for performance purposes, you have to always assume an engine loss.

No I read your post... that wasn't about you.

Other people were trying to say there was no way you could do a go-around down in the canyon (even with both lit).

It's safer to do a go around when both engines are lit and assume it's gonna stay lit for the next minute, than it is to salvage a blown approach on a short narrow runway, no?
 
azjubilee
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:44 am

Yes, it's always better to goaround from a botched approach than attempt to land. Even with general aviation, a bad approach will lead to a bad landing. That's why we have stabilized approach criteria. I seriously doubt that the CRJ service into ASE comes with a restriction that they cannot do go arounds. If I were an airline, I would not allow any certification to back my pilots into a dark and dangerous corner such as that one.


AZJ
 
SansVGs
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 19):
The CRJ-900 cannot fly the localizer into ASE, though, because of its approach speed.

Ding, Ding! One of the better insights I have read on A.net. This is a bit of a "drilled down" discussion, but everyone seems to get hung up on the usual topics of second segment climb gradient, approach climb gradient, and runway at KASE. If one looks at the charts, they will see that all descent path gradients are very steep. This makes them technically circling approaches since circling criteria includes vertical as well as horizontal parameters. This is fine if the ref + 25 or ref + 20 keeps one in category A, B, or C. But for some larger / faster planes the ref additive puts them in category D where circling is not authorized on the charts. Though some airlines may have custom approaches in their ops specs as well as company escape procedures on a missed.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KASE

I know Airwisky had escape procedures, but I don't know about Skywest--would assume they do. I don't know is if they have op spec relief form the published standard charts.
Winglets on a Falcon are "over-painting" a great work of art.
 
Tornado82
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting SansVGs (Reply 27):
This is fine if the ref + 25 or ref + 20 keeps one in category A, B, or C. But for some larger / faster planes the ref additive puts them in category D where circling is not authorized on the charts. Though some airlines may have custom approaches in their ops specs as well as company escape procedures on a missed.

What are the criteria for Cat A,B,C,D?
 
SansVGs
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:46 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 28):
What are the criteria for Cat A,B,C,D?

A--less than 91 knots

B--91 knots or more but less than 121 knots

C: 121 knots or more but less than 141 knots

D--141 knots or more but less than 166 knots

E--166 knots or more

Lets's say that if the CRJ 7 (I am no CRJ 7 expert) had a ref speed of 123 knots. They would have to add 20 or 25 knots for circling making the approach / circling speed either 143 or 145 knots respectively, and placing them in CAT D. And according to the Jepp charts for ASE this means visual approach only. Hope this helps.

Sans
Winglets on a Falcon are "over-painting" a great work of art.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting SansVGs (Reply 29):
I am no CRJ 7 expert

Good explaination there. Just for reference to this thread, though, the CR7 is C and C.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
SansVGs
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:17 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 30):
Good explaination there. Just for reference to this thread, though, the CR7 is C and C.

Thanks Man. Just curious...what are your average ref speeds on the 700?

Best,

Sans
Winglets on a Falcon are "over-painting" a great work of art.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: DL Service To Aspen Colorado ASE How Is It Going?

Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:08 am

Quoting SansVGs (Reply 31):

Thanks Man. Just curious...what are your average ref speeds on the 700?

That, I couldn't tell you. I don't fly the things; I just dispatch them.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.