kaitak
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FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:45 am

A report issued by the NTSB now says that the Delta 757 which VERY narrowly avoided a UAL A320 actually touched down before being asked by ATC to take off again; the tower asked the A320 to "stop, stop, stop" but it failed to do so.

Well done to the DL crew (and indeed ATC) for reacting so quickly; can't help wondering what kind of welcome the UAL crew got when they returned to ORD? Suspension?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19856220/
 
777STL
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:49 am

Thanks god it was a 757....
PHX based
 
musapapaya
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:10 am

It seems to me its not the UA crew's fault? I dont know - I am confused on what happened!
Lufthansa Group of Airlines
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:43 am

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 2):
It seems to me its not the UA crew's fault?

It is.

NTSB Identification: OPS07IA006A
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 121: Air Carrier operation of DELTA AIRLINES INC DFW BASE MAINTENANCE
Incident occurred Wednesday, July 11, 2007 in Fort Lauderdale, FL
Aircraft: Boeing 757-232, registration: N6714Q
Injuries: 172 Uninjured.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On July 11, 2007, at 1437 Eastern daylight time a runway incursion occurred at the Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood Airport, (FLL), Fort Lauderdale, Florida between United (UAL) flight 1544, an A-320 and Delta Airlines (DAL) flight 1489, a Boeing 757. The incident occurred in day visual flight rules conditions, visibility 10 miles, scattered clouds at 4,800 feet.

The FLL ground controller (GC) instructed UAL1544 to taxi to runway 9L via taxiway T7. As the flight was taxiing on taxiway D near runway 9L, the tower local controller (LC) noticed the airplane was going too fast to hold short of the runway. LC told the GC to tell UAL to stop. The GC said "UAL 1544 stop, stop, stop". The crew stopped on runway 9L, 30 feet from the centerline.

DAL1489 was inbound for landing on runway 9L when LC determined that UAL1544 was not going to hold short of the runway. LC instructed DAL1489 to go around. When the crew received the instruction, the main landing gear was on the ground. According to the crew statement, they noted the urgency in the controller's voice so they knew they had to get the aircraft airborne. FAA reported DAL1489 flew over UAL1544 by less than 100 feet.

According to the FAA, the UAL crew stated they missed the turn onto taxiway B.

FLL air traffic control tower is not equipped with either AMASS or ASDE-X. All airport lighting was functioning normally.


Source (For public use)

Taxiway Diagram
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
rfields5421
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:49 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 3):
the UAL crew stated they missed the turn onto taxiway B.



Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 2):
It seems to me its not the UA crew's fault? I dont know - I am confused on what happened!

In addition to missing a turn to a different taxiway, the UA crew when past a sign identifying the active runway and onto the active runway. They did stop immediately when the controller told them - but it was too late to avoid fouling the runway.

Those hold short marks are there for a reason. The UA crew basically ran a stop sign.
 
ScottB
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 4):
In addition to missing a turn to a different taxiway, the UA crew when past a sign identifying the active runway and onto the active runway. They did stop immediately when the controller told them - but it was too late to avoid fouling the runway.

Wow... talk about inattentiveness. I can understand unfamiliar airports perhaps being confusing, but one might expect a pilot unfamiliar with an airport to pay extra attention to his or her surroundings. With 10-mile visibility, it's not like they couldn't see the signs and pavement markings...
 
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Tugger
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:29 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 3):
DAL1489 flew over UAL1544 by less than 100 feet.

Holy crap! Bet that was a terrifying and long 5-10 (or so) seconds for the United crew! Imagine being helpless sitting there watching the DL flight touchdown and then trying to take back off.
100 feet just ain't that much!

Tug
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
aerobalance
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:35 am

Hold short lines are some of the most important paint marking on an airfields surface. Makes you wonder if there is a better way to identify boundary areas.

[Edited 2007-07-20 01:36:36]
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
micstatic
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:00 am

Do they have wig wags at FLL?
.
.
.
S340,DH8,AT7,CR2/7,E135/45/170/190,319,320,717,732,733,734,735,737,738,744,752,762,763,764,772,M80,M90
 
freshlove1
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:50 am

How in the world could they possibly screw that up in FLL. Those runways and taxi ways are not complicated at all.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:37 pm

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 2):
It seems to me its not the UA crew's fault? I dont know - I am confused on what happened!

Seems pretty clear who was in error, unless a read back from UA on the taxi route was incorrect and not fixed by the ground controller immediately.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 5):
one might expect a pilot unfamiliar with an airport to pay extra attention to his or her surroundings

I'd sure like to think that is the case.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:17 pm

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 8):
Do they have wig wags at FLL?

What they don't have at FLL are two 7500 ft plus runways so these things don't happen. Its going to take a front page
frigup by a controller or pilot to get the FAA to get two runways there that commercial jets can use on a daily basis.
FLL has three runways but only one is of safe length to A320's or bigger. The other two are fine for EM120's or Citations.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:44 pm

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 11):
What they don't have at FLL are two 7500 ft plus runways so these things don't happen

But that as we all know won't completely rule out the possibility of runway incursions, would certainly help.

I know this is an over used phrase but the entire avoiding runway incursions is a "team effort" and the entire team has to close the loop on the lack of attention issue.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:41 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 11):
What they don't have at FLL are two 7500 ft plus runways so these things don't happen.

How would two major air carrier runways have averted this? You'd still have aircraft taxiing to runway 9L regardless of the number of runways...

Hell, this could have easily been, for example, an aircraft simply taxiing from customs to one of the FBOs on the north side of the field...Irrelevant to airport capacity.

-----

Folks, let's not look into this any more than what it is...a simple Runway Incursion. It can happen at any airport, at any time of day, in any weather, under any conditions.

And it's up to us pilots to make sure it doesn't...Maintain situational awareness not just some of the time, but at ALL times!
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:48 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 11):
FLL has three runways but only one is of safe length to A320's or bigger.

At FLL, Rwy 9L/27R is 9000' X 150', very good for commerical aircraft. Rwy 9R/27L is 5276' X 100', good enough for aircraft the size of A-320s and B-737NGs and smaller., Rwy 13/31 is 6930' X 150', which is good enough for all commerical aircraft to land on.

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 8):
Do they have wig wags at FLL?

Since the UA crew missed the turn ont Twy B, the Rwy Hold Bar and Rwy Hold Position sign, what makes you think they would have noticed any wig wags?

BTW, the wig wags are for low visibility operations.
 
AA54Heavy
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:16 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
BTW, the wig wags are for low visibility operations.

Are wig-wags the flashing yellow lights (either embedded in the concrete along the intersection, or on either side of the runway entrance)?
Roger that, turning to our "other" left
 
57AZ
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:39 am

It seems like there is a need for a positive control signal to alert the pilots that they are approaching a runway which they do not have clearance to cross or occupy. With all of the detection and sensor technology, it certainly has to be possible to create such a system, although it would be complex (and expensive) to design. I imagine that it could have the taxi route programmed into it and sound a warning message or tone if it senses that the aircraft would enter the prohibited area and record that data for later analysis.

Railroads have long since had that type of technology with their block signaling systems. The most basic form of this was the smashboard signal-back in the days when railroads used semaphore signals. The smashboard had a wooden blade that extended out far enough from the mast to strike either the smokestack or cab of the locomotive. These signals were primarily used to protect very dangerous points on the line, such as drawbridges. If the engineman overran the stop signal, it would strike the blade and break it off, making a loud noise in the process. The paint scrapes on the locomotive and the broken signal blade were proof enough of the offense, thus making the smashboard a warning that could not be defeated or covered up in the investigation.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:52 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
Rwy 9R/27L is 5276' X 100', good enough for aircraft the size of A-320s and B-737NGs and smaller.

Thats not wide enough. Im pretty sure most airlines wouldnt allow that.


Wind permitting. Do they land on 13 and depart on 9L? That could move things along a little better.
 
nwa330tony
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:12 am

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 3):
When the crew received the instruction, the main landing gear was on the ground. According to the crew statement, they noted the urgency in the controller's voice so they knew they had to get the aircraft airborne.

thats very scary stuff, hats off to that delta crew, easy to pull up into a very dangerous stall there! no room for error
as far as speed!
 
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FlyingJhawk
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:37 am

One thing I find curious about the controller transcript is that they refer to the UAL plane as "UAL 1554." when the controller should have said "United 1554." Makes me wonder whether this transcript is accurate and if there isn't more to the story.

Also, it appears that Taxiway Delta crosses 9L about 3500' from the start of 9L. Assuming touchdown at about 1000' that would give only about less 2000' for Delta 1437 to hear the controller, understand the ATC instruction add power, pull up and clear the A320. Like someone else mentioned, thank goodness Delta 1437 was a 757.

Perhaps the controller should have just instructed Delta 1437 to "bolter! bolter!"

If indeed there was extreme negligence by the UA crew, it was surpassed by the piloting skills of the Delta A/C.
 
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yellowtail
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:56 am

Sometimes pilots are all too happy to have the power/thrust of the 757
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
At FLL, Rwy 9L/27R is 9000' X 150', very good for commerical aircraft. Rwy 9R/27L is 5276' X 100', good enough for aircraft the size of A-320s and B-737NGs and smaller., Rwy 13/31 is 6930' X 150', which is good enough for all commerical aircraft to land on.

9R-27L may be good enough for you to come and go on a regular basis but I'll take 9L-27R next time my A320 hits the concrete....
thankyouverymuch
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:27 am

Quoting AA54Heavy (Reply 15):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
BTW, the wig wags are for low visibility operations.

Are wig-wags the flashing yellow lights (either embedded in the concrete along the intersection, or on either side of the runway entrance)?

That is correct. I don't know for sure, but would guess FLL has them since they get fog throughout the year.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 21):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
At FLL, Rwy 9L/27R is 9000' X 150', very good for commerical aircraft. Rwy 9R/27L is 5276' X 100', good enough for aircraft the size of A-320s and B-737NGs and smaller., Rwy 13/31 is 6930' X 150', which is good enough for all commerical aircraft to land on.

9R-27L may be good enough for you to come and go on a regular basis but I'll take 9L-27R next time my A320 hits the concrete....

I am only saying the runway dementions would leagally allow airplanes of that size to use it. I have no idea if 9R/27L has enough pavement strenght to handle the weight of a B-737NG or A-320 series airplane.
 
797
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:35 am

That is just a breathtaking event.

Guys, figure out how many flights are happening every second in the US... or even better, in Florida.

This was clearly a mistake by the UA pilot, but it's a runway intrusion that might have caused a big accident. However, human beings are the ones that manage either the aircraft and the ATC. None of us are perfect and this can happen more often. Thank God they exist. Without them, none of this would be possible.

What we need is more attention, that's all

Cheers
Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
 
christopherwoo
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:45 am

What i really want to know is, How come the Delta crew didnt see the A320 on the Runway? and also, saying that, if the A320 was 30 ft from the centre line, would that even be on the runway? only just?

Chris
 
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FlyingJhawk
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:56 am

Quoting Christopherwoo (Reply 24):
What i really want to know is, How come the Delta crew didnt see the A320 on the Runway? and also, saying that, if the A320 was 30 ft from the centre line, would that even be on the runway? only just?

First off, I don't think we can assume that the Delta crew did not see the United a/c since we have no transcripts from the CVR or ATC that details what the crew in the Delta jet communicated. Perhaps they were initiating an aborted take off just as ATC instructed them to do the same.

Secondly, with the wingspan of a 757 being 124' and 9L being 150' wide, it really wouldn't matter if the United jet was 30' onto the runway or right on the centerline - that collision would have been catastrophic. I guess the only real difference would have been the extent of the catastrophie.

There are close calls and then there are frighteningly close calls. Any delay by either ATC controller or the Delta crew and this would have ended badly.
 
cubastar
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting FlyingJHawk (Reply 19):
Perhaps the controller should have just instructed Delta 1437 to "bolter! bolter!"

Doubt that he/she would have understood; incorrect communication. Proper is: "GO AROUND". Also, as all Naval Aviatiors know, a Bolter is when an aircraft has failed to catch a wire on the aircraft carrier and is going off the end of the landing area of the carrier.

Quoting Christopherwoo (Reply 24):
What i really want to know is, How come the Delta crew didnt see the A320 on the Runway? and also, saying that, if the A320 was 30 ft from the centre line, would that even be on the runway? only just?

They well may have seen him taxiing on the taxiway to 9L but he was supposed to TURN westbound at the intersection. He didn't make that turn. As the controller transmitted to him to stop....his aircraft was brought to a stop 30 feet from the center of a 150 foot wide (I suppose) runway which would put his aircraft extending 45 feet onto the active runway.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:42 am

Quoting FlyingJHawk (Reply 19):
they refer to the UAL plane as "UAL 1554." when the controller should have said "United 1554."

Since the United three letter ID for air traffic control purpose is UAL, and the transcriber of the tape was most likely an air traffic control quality assurance office, they'd use UAL and the flight number.

Quoting FlyingJHawk (Reply 19):
Makes me wonder whether this transcript is accurate and if there isn't more to the story.

I would say it is accurate unless as I mentioned in an earlier post there was a read back error well before the aircraft strayed onto the runway which isn't in this part of the transcript.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
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litz
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:07 am

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 16):
Railroads have long since had that type of technology with their block signaling systems.

Block signaling is a fairly foolproof way to route trains around but it doesn't have any kind of positive control over the train itself.

In (greatly simplified) essence for the non railroaders amongst us, a railroad line is divided into blocks, short sections of track, each of which is assigned to a train to operate in. Only one train can be in a block at a time, and the signaling is setup in such a way that if a 2nd train encroaches into an occupied block of track, the signals all turn RED, and everyone stops ... hopefully before they collide.

The problem with this (and also was shown in the DL/UA near miss) is you still have to rely on human beings to see the signals and react. If your engineer is sleeping, he won't stop. If your pilot has already missed one turn, and several taxiway signs stating he's in the wrong place --- and keeps going --- ... well, you get a near miss like we had.

There's no real way to implement a positive stop device, like NYC uses in their subways (it stops trains that run red signals) nationwide ... the costs would be ... lots. And I really can't think of any way to apply something similar to the aviation world.

- litz
 
rfields5421
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:18 am

Quoting FlyingJHawk (Reply 19):
controller transcript is that they refer to the UAL plane as "UAL 1554." when the controller should have said "United 1554." Makes me wonder whether this transcript is accurate and if there isn't more to the story.

It's not a transcript - it's a quote in a report. It may have been UAL or it may have been United.

The heads-up call here goes to the controller who correctly realized that the UAL aircraft was going too fast to make the taxiway turn, or to stop at the hold short marks. The aircraft stopped about 500 feet past where it was supposed to turn.

The Delta crew probably saw the UAL aircraft, but flaring to touchdown - their view straight down the runway isn't the greatest.

They also would have been unaware of the UAL aircraft intentions / taxi directions since those are on a different frequency.
 
positiverate
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:43 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 11):
What they don't have at FLL are two 7500 ft plus runways so these things don't happen. Its going to take a front page
frigup by a controller or pilot to get the FAA to get two runways there that commercial jets can use on a daily basis.
FLL has three runways but only one is of safe length to A320's or bigger. The other two are fine for EM120's or Citations.
safe

And your point is? They also dont have those runways at DCA, SNA, SAN...
 
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FlyingJhawk
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:47 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 27):

I would say it is accurate unless as I mentioned in an earlier post there was a read back error well before the aircraft strayed onto the runway which isn't in this part of the transcript.

I can't figure out if you are agreeing or disagreeing. Sounds like we stating the same thing in different ways.
 
Queso
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:57 am

Quoting 777STL (Reply 1):
Thanks god it was a 757....

 checkmark  No shit! Either that or a Super Cub!  Big grin
 
isitsafenow
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:09 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 30):
And your point is

The discussion is FLL.
You can bring up the other three if you wish. I go to FLL three times a year. I assume you go to the other three.
Now you see the point, yes?
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
positiverate
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:01 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 33):
Quoting Positiverate (Reply 30):
And your point is

The discussion is FLL.
You can bring up the other three if you wish. I go to FLL three times a year. I assume you go to the other three.
Now you see the point, yes?
safe

I go to FLL once a month.

Again, your point is...? You don't need 2 7500' or greater runways to run a successful safe airport...
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:55 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 22):


Quoting Isitsafenow:

9R-27L may be good enough for you to come and go on a regular basis but I'll take 9L-27R next time my A320 hits the concrete....

I am only saying the runway dementions would leagally allow airplanes of that size to use it. I have no idea if 9R/27L has enough pavement strenght to handle the weight of a B-737NG or A-320 series airplane.

 no 

Quoting Airnav.com:

RY 09R/27L CLSD TO ACFT IN EXCESS OF 58000 LBS MAX CERTIFICATED GROSS TKOF WT.

Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 17):
Wind permitting. Do they land on 13 and depart on 9L? That could move things along a little better.

It's happened before. And at 6930 x 150 ft, 13/31 is more than capable of handling 90% of FLL's traffic...It's the primary-use air carrier runway whenever 9L/27R is down for maintenance.

But with regard to more frequent use of it...THAT you'd have to take up with the county commission...Not the FAA.  Wink
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:55 pm

Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 35):
But with regard to more frequent use of it...THAT you'd have to take up with the county commission...Not the FAA.

Nimbys?
 
KFLLCFII
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:06 pm

Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 36):


Quoting KFLLCFII:

But with regard to more frequent use of it...THAT you'd have to take up with the county commission...Not the FAA.

Nimbys?

 checkmark 

A true understatement.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
kcrwflyer
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:21 pm

Nimbys....

I guess your life is pretty bland when you have to complain about planes flying overhead.

Is there a limited usage rule in place now, or is it time based? Really, if the wind permits the usage of a runway, I dont see how some whiny residents can stop that runway from being used. Unless this is some twisted tale of polotics. ( like all tales of polotics are)
 
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Tugger
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:33 pm

How did this get to be a talk about an airport and NIMBY's? There are plenty of equally bad airports that can be complained about. This is a crew error and possibly a tower error if their instructions weren't clear. And I say that with a caveat because the report shows it to be crew error.

Obviously the airport layout is key but with all the variety and "difficult" airfields their are out there its crew coordination that is key. Otherwise no airport is safe (and yes I know that something like this could happen at any of those "bad" airports). Its all about the crew that are flying the plane that make it and the airport safe.

Tug

[Edited 2007-07-21 07:34:35]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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SEPilot
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:04 pm

As others have mentioned, pilots are human beings and are prone to making mistakes. A great deal of effort has been expended to try and eliminate this kind of incident, but as long as there are human pilots mistakes will be made. As others have said, thank God for the alertness and response of the Delta crew, as well as the power of the 757.
That being said, one of the things that has been drilled into me is that you NEVER cross a runway at a controlled airport without SPECIFIC permission. Granted, I am a relatively infrequent flyer, and I suppose if I were doing it every day I might get complacent, but at least at this point that is one rule that is very much on my mind whenever I'm at a controlled airport. I am somewhat surprised that a professional crew would make this mistake.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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RE: FLL Near Collision: DL 757 Touched Down

Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:32 pm

Quoting FlyingJHawk (Reply 31):
I can't figure out if you are agreeing or disagreeing

Neither. Was only offering a thought.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 40):
one of the things that has been drilled into me is that you NEVER cross a runway at a controlled airport without SPECIFIC permission. Granted, I am a relatively infrequent flyer, and I suppose if I were doing it every day I might get complacent, but at least at this point that is one rule that is very much on my mind whenever I'm at a controlled airport. I am somewhat surprised that a professional crew would make this mistake.

That is a great thing to have drilled into your head, as it is mine, however the reality of it is that you are cleared to taxi to the take-off runway, that clearance allows you to cross ALL runways on the taxi route except the runway you have been cleared to. should that runway need to be crossed in order to get to the approach end. Hope that made sense!  Smile

In the past working ground control unless there wasn't another aircraft around, always issue the taxi route in the clearance otherwise the gold tow bar award might be yours when 2 of more end up face to face.  ashamed 
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