access-air
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Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:08 am

I am not sure if any of you have noticed, but there are some Airline Hub airports and some busy airports such as Chicago OHare that notlonger have any Commuter Prop operations. Is this due to a ban on them because they are too "slow" for the pattern or is it something else....

I am thinking that if they had their way, ALL Major airlines would cast off their prop planes propogating the false impressionm that they are somehow unsafe.

So, besides OHare, (and Midway btw) are there any PURE-JET Airline airports in the US?????

Access-Air
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swissgabe
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting Access-Air (Thread starter):
So, besides OHare, (and Midway btw) are there any PURE-JET Airline airports in the US?????

Why only restrict it to the US?
Kuala Lumpur does have Jet only operation, all airlines had to move from SZB to KUL but Berjaya Air with its DH7 was able to stay or even had to. There are no regular scheduled prop ops at KUL. If not mistaken, sames goes for SIN.
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RJNUT
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:25 am

SFO only restricts access to parking at the main terminal...(can some explain why?) I assume so no workers have danger of being close to props?

But i cant thin kany airport that restricts props, may though, restricts by minimum seating arrangements, or such, but not by means of propulion!
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:26 am

Quoting Access-Air (Thread starter):
So, besides OHare, (and Midway btw) are there any PURE-JET Airline airports in the US?????

I'm not sure if this is the case with either of these as of yet, but LAX, JFK, LGA, EWR as well as ATL should become "Jet only airports" looking at the patterns they must deal with.
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SkyyMaster
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:30 am

I don't believe ORD bans prop aircraft. AA started the trend out of ORD quite a few years ago by replacing all of it's prop routes with RJ's, and UA followed suit. A competitive issue entirely. My home airport BNA does not have any current scheduled prop service, and I'm sure there are quite a few others. I am not aware of any US airports that specifically ban props, and the perception that propeller driven aircraft are unsafe is unfounded. Anyone who thinks so should try a ride on a Q400. Quiet, FAST. They will be replacing RJ's in more markets IMO.
 
dnl65
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:33 am

The law in the US prohibits banning a specific class or type of aircraft hence there are no such bans here.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:48 am

Quoting Access-Air (Thread starter):
I am not sure if any of you have noticed, but there are some Airline Hub airports and some busy airports such as Chicago OHare that notlonger have any Commuter Prop operations. Is this due to a ban on them because they are too "slow" for the pattern or is it something else....

AA started scaling back turboprop operations at ORD due to the Roselawn incident. Customers liked it more, so other carriers (chiefly UA) had to convert as well, for competitive reasons.
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freshlove1
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting Dnl65 (Reply 5):
The law in the US prohibits banning a specific class or type of aircraft hence there are no such bans here.

PHL does not allow any carrier to fly 19 seat aircraft to or from PHL. Mesa/Air Midwest used to have a huge 1900 operation back in 99' that covered much of the upper East Coast but PHL then decided that the "slot" and "gate" that the 1900's were taking up were better suited for larger aircraft such as a CRJ or Dash-8 so a "ban" if you want to call it that was put in place and Mesa/Air Midwest stopped flying to all of those cities.



MDW has 1900 service from Big Sky and 1900 service from Air Midwest.
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:00 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 3):
I'm not sure if this is the case with either of these as of yet, but LAX, JFK, LGA, EWR as well as ATL should become "Jet only airports" looking at the patterns they must deal with.

As much as I agree with you on that point, I think nothing will change in the United States regarding the issue of banning prop equipment from such heavy traffic airports..

United Express has the largest operation of prop equipment out of Los Angeles(LAX):

Bakersfield, Carlsbad, Fresno, Imperial, Inyokern, Modesto, Monterey, Ontario, Orange County, Oxnard, Palm Springs, San Diego, San Jose, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, Santa Maria, St. George, Yuma

American Eagle has the following prop equipment operations out of Los Angeles(LAX):

Fresno, Monterey, San Diego, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara

Horizon has the following prop equipment operations out of Los Angeles(LAX):

Boise, Eugene, Eureka/Arcata, Medford, Redding, Redmond/Bend, Reno/Tahoe, Santa Rosa, Sun Valley

I have not a clue as to what any of the above airlines would do in the case that such a ruling would be handed down.

At current I am under the belief that JFK is all jet equipment, as the last of the Delta Prop operations has ended or will be ending very soon. As far as LGA it has a hearty number of US Airways Express prop operations, and Newark has a sole operator of prop operations which I believe is US Airways Express as well? If I am incorrect please let me know.


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DAYflyer
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:03 am

No bans. I dont think the major/legacy carriers here are going to dump them anytime soon since the economics are great. I think CO just ordered some 400Q's for CO express this year in fact.
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Tornado82
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:07 am

Quoting Access-Air (Thread starter):
(and Midway btw)

There have been Beech 1900 operations at Midway during 2007. Also, there are loads of private props flying in there on a regular basis. A friend of mine recently flew his Skyhawk in there.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 7):
PHL does not allow any carrier to fly 19 seat aircraft to or from PHL. Mesa/Air Midwest used to have a huge 1900 operation back in 99' that covered much of the upper East Coast but PHL then decided that the "slot" and "gate" that the 1900's were taking up were better suited for larger aircraft such as a CRJ or Dash-8 so a "ban" if you want to call it that was put in place and Mesa/Air Midwest stopped flying to all of those cities.

Isn't this a USAirways rule for their hub ops, and not a Philadelphia rule?
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting Access-Air (Thread starter):
Is this due to a ban on them because they are too "slow" for the pattern or is it something else....

Slow for the pattern?

Most of the t-props being flown by regional airlines are not too slow for the pattern when landing for sure.....departure, now that is another story in most cases.
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PanAm747
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:16 am

Let's also remember that SJU has an enormous prop operation, and the combination of short runways, heavy cargo loads, and hot conditions make Caribbean operations very poor for RJ's. Most AAEagle ATR's have migrated to Puerto Rico, and are serving quite well there.

Quote:
United Express has the largest operation of prop equipment out of Los Angeles(LAX):

Bakersfield, Carlsbad, Fresno, Imperial, Inyokern, Modesto, Monterey, Ontario, Orange County, Oxnard, Palm Springs, San Diego, San Jose, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, Santa Maria, St. George, Yuma

Where all EM2's go to die.  rotfl 

Until another plane as economical for these routes comes along, this old vibrating soldier will continue on faithfully in California.
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access-air
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:19 am

Oops, Sorry I forgot about the Mesa Ops with 1900s into Midway.....I dont thknk it will be lasting too much longer tho....

As for PHL banning 19 seat planes, well thats rediculous. You are then smaller communities that have legitimate air traffic/passenger loads that cannot fill a 30 plus passenger plane that they be served. I doubt that if you barely fill Beech 1900 or similar, how could an airline be expected to use a larger aircraft???

I just think that the airlines and their regional partners have all forgotten all the smaller communites that they started in. Some of those cities have been dropped from route maps not because they arent important but because the commuters morphed into regionals and shed their small props. In some cases, to justify leaving smaller communities regionals will purposefully run poorly timed flights that no one can use to "demonstrate" how poor the loads are. Believe me, I have seen this in my own community with three airlines that pulled this same crap prior to pulling service... Ozark, Britt and Great Lakes. They failed to put any real effort into marketing and selling their product. Taking for granted that eveyone knows there is a commuter airline in town just simply wont do the trick....How do you thnk fast food businesses keep their clients? They advertise and they listen to the needs of their clients.

Anyway, Id imagine that if they could alot more airline hubs would love to have Pure-Jet oeprations...As sad day when that happens...

Access-Air
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hawaiian717
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting RJNUT (Reply 2):
SFO only restricts access to parking at the main terminal

This doesn't seem to be true anymore. United's website no longer shows the bus to the commuter terminal departing from gate 87A, so they must be parking the Brasilias somewhere at Terminal 3.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 8):
At current I am under the belief that JFK is all jet equipment,

CO Connection has a Q200 flying CLE-JFK
 
Tornado82
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:11 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 8):
At current I am under the belief that JFK is all jet equipment, as the last of the Delta Prop operations has ended or will be ending very soon. As far as LGA it has a hearty number of US Airways Express prop operations, and Newark has a sole operator of prop operations which I believe is US Airways Express as well?

EWR will soon have Q400's from CO as well. However I don't know if US is still running Dashes into EWR... they might be back to RJ's. US changes that PIT-EWR schedule daily it seems anymore.
 
chase
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting Access-Air (Thread starter):
Chicago OHare that notlonger have any Commuter Prop operations

I'm too lazy to post a link, but there's another thread active right now about a regular VPZ-ORD charter on a prop...
 
Poitin
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:22 am

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 4):
I am not aware of any US airports that specifically ban props, and the perception that propeller driven aircraft are unsafe is unfounded. Anyone who thinks so should try a ride on a Q400. Quiet, FAST. They will be replacing RJ's in more markets IMO.

Anyone who flew in a Beech 1900D will fully understand why turboprops became so unpopular, but the advent of active noise cancellation on aircraft like the Q400 and even the Airbus 400M will, with oil prices going ever higher, certainly lead to the return of turboprops to the regional airlines.
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tsnamm
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 15):
CO Connection has a Q200 flying CLE-JFK

DL is still operating DH8 at JFK...I know its supposed to end sometime soon, but they're still here, going to BWI and PHL among others.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting Chase (Reply 17):

I'm too lazy to post a link, but there's another thread active right now about a regular VPZ-ORD charter on a prop...

SBN-IND-EVV? (by SBNair3022 Jul 19 2007 in Civil Aviation) However, the VPZ-ORD charter (on a Beech Baron - Piston twin not even a turboprop) goes to the FBO, not the commercial terminal. The FBO then transports any pax for connections over to the terminal they need to go to.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 18):
Anyone who flew in a Beech 1900D will fully understand why turboprops became so unpopular,

They're better than a Saab 340. I love the Beech 1900, with the cockpit door open.
 
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:31 am

Quoting Hawaiian717 (Reply 14):
This doesn't seem to be true anymore. United's website no longer shows the bus to the commuter terminal departing from gate 87A, so they must be parking the Brasilias somewhere at Terminal 3.

United moved the UAX operation at SFO to the concourse "thumb", gates 76 to 79.
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UN_B732
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:51 am

Once Freedom parks the Dash 8s, JFK will be almost prop free - only the CommutAir JFK-CLE Q200s will remain.
What now?
 
access-air
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 18):
Anyone who flew in a Beech 1900D will fully understand why turboprops became so unpopular,

Oh good grief, if you think a Beech 1900 is loud, did you ever fly on one of the older Swearingen Metroliners with the short wings and the 3 bladed props.....talk about mind numbing...I love to fly on prop planes but the Metro II takes the cake for loud prop plane.....Of course for my flight I purposefully took the seat right next to the prop so that I could make my audio tape recording.....The real annoying part of the flight was when they turned on the prop sych....that just made the engines go into a sort of drone.....When they turned it back off it was better at least with the intermittent back and fourth sound the props would make.

Like someone said previously, because of the insufficient amount of coverage on the wing leading edges of deice boots on the ATR 42/72 series, that resulted in the Haloween 1994 crash in Roselawn, Indiana, people freakewd out even more about props.

I would say that any airport within a 200-300 mile radius of a Hub airport such as OHare does not need the use of Regional Jets. Props will do just fine.
Unfortunately when you let people get used to a certain type of aircraft on a given route and then take it away because you are using something that is too expensive to operate, you will have a hard time of convincing passengers to get back into a Turboprop. I guess you could say the same thing about how mainline flights have been taken and replaced with Regioinal Jets....However I would bet that people would gladly welcome mainline flights over RJs......

I guess this is the reason I dont find anything too awfully exciting about regional airlines these days....

Access-Air
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freshlove1
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 10):
Isn't this a USAirways rule for their hub ops, and not a Philadelphia rule?

I believe it may have been a combination of both with this decision (PHL) but from what I can remember it was more of an airport decision rather then a US decision. They have 1900's at their CLT hub and also in PHX.
 
Alias1024
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:42 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 3):
I'm not sure if this is the case with either of these as of yet, but LAX, JFK, LGA, EWR as well as ATL should become "Jet only airports" looking at the patterns they must deal with.

What do you mean by the patterns they must deal with? Please explain why these airports should be jet only.
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Poitin
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 23):
Oh good grief, if you think a Beech 1900 is loud, did you ever fly on one of the older Swearingen Metroliners with the short wings and the 3 bladed props.....talk about mind numbing.

Fortunately no, I never had the pleasure. The Beech 1900 was bad enough. I do remember one memorial flight in a Bristol Brittannia. From JFK to LGW by way of RKV. Thirteen house of pure pain. I was so numb by the time that flight ended, I could have gone to the dentist and had teeth drilled without Novocaine.

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 23):
I would say that any airport within a 200-300 mile radius of a Hub airport such as OHare does not need the use of Regional Jets. Props will do just fine.
Unfortunately when you let people get used to a certain type of aircraft on a given route and then take it away because you are using something that is too expensive to operate, you will have a hard time of convincing passengers to get back into a Turboprop.

This is true, but when they have the choice of paying twice as much for a jet as compared to the Q400, their wallet will speak and their minds and hearts are sure to follow. The price of oil is at $75 a barrel, headed for $80, and given the growth in both the Indian and Chinese economies, going to $100 a barrel soon enough. While we might see $60 a barrel for a brief time, it will not last and will be right back up to where it is today.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
Tornado82
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:15 am

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 24):
They have 1900's at their CLT hub

And PIT. But neither PIT nor CLT are anywhere near as congested for both gates and airfield capacity as PHL.

However all of this is not for long. Air Midwest is consolidating to the other side of the Mississippi and dropping their EAS's.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:19 am

Quoting Dnl65 (Reply 5):


The law in the US prohibits banning a specific class or type of aircraft hence there are no such bans here.

There are restrictions at DCA. But it's a reverse ban, the 767-200 was the largest a/c certified to operated there, but no airline ever scheduled one into DCA. The 757 is the largest airplane currently operating there.
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freshlove1
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:47 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 27):
However all of this is not for long. Air Midwest is consolidating to the other side of the Mississippi and dropping their EAS's.

And rumor has it that Gulfstream is going to be flying those routes (FKL-PIT, DUJ-PIT, AHN-CLT, CLT-LWB and possibly LNS-PIT) with 1900's. This all hinges upon Gulfstream becomming a US Airways Express carrier. If that does not happen then who knows who will fly those routes. Air Midwest will still have EAS routes from their MCI hub to COU, JLN, MHK, SLN and I believe IRK.
 
seb146
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:55 am

I can't imagine an airport banning props. I guess living in the West gives me that perspective. Pendleton (PDT) was the airport I grew up next to. It is 200 miles east of PDX. Growing up, we had anywhere from 3 to 7 flights a day on QX. For a while, we even had flights to SEA and BOI. All were using Metro III and sometimes F-27s. It was just easier to fly to PDX and change planes than drive 4 hours. There is no way an RJ would have or even now could support the few pax QX serves on their Dash 8s 3x a day between PDT and PDX. Using this logic, I can't imagine the same thing for far-flung communities such as Crecent City, Winnemucca, Elko, or Page. But, I don't even think Crecent City has service anymore.

GO CANUCKS!!
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Tornado82
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:29 am

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 29):
Air Midwest will still have EAS routes from their MCI hub to COU, JLN, MHK, SLN and I believe IRK.

As I said, west of the Mississippi.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 29):
And rumor has it that Gulfstream is going to be flying those routes (FKL-PIT, DUJ-PIT, AHN-CLT, CLT-LWB and possibly LNS-PIT) with 1900's. This all hinges upon Gulfstream becomming a US Airways Express carrier.

It hinges on them winning the EAS contract too, although I think it's now a one-horse race.
 
freshlove1
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:45 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 31):
It hinges on them winning the EAS contract too, although I think it's now a one-horse race.

You are correct.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 31):
As I said, west of the Mississippi

My bad. Geography was never a strong point. Good thing I am not a pilot or who the hell knows where I would end up.
 
westindian425
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:07 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 16):
EWR will soon have Q400's from CO as well. However I don't know if US is still running Dashes into EWR... they might be back to RJ's. US changes that PIT-EWR schedule daily it seems anymore.

Flying in and out of there, I haven't seen Peidmont come into EWR. As it stands now, no one serves EWR with turboprops, though change is planned with the Colgan (not CommutAir) Dash 8 Q400's.

Incidentally, there's a rumor out that the PANYNJ is fighting the entrant of the Dash into EWR.
God did not create aircraft pilots to be on the ground
 
HowSwedeitis
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:13 am

That irritates me... smaller, more economical commuter planes should have the right to land at these airports. Have ATC set up their own pattern for particular runways if they are a problem. COMMUTERS SAVE GAS!! (Newer ones anyway...)
 irked 
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Tornado82
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:15 am

Quoting WestIndian425 (Reply 33):
Flying in and out of there, I haven't seen Peidmont come into EWR.

Piedmont was running at least one PIT-EWR frequency for USAirways earlier this year.


And considering the fact that the Q400's are going to be nearly 2 to 3 ratios vs the ERJ's as far as seats go, PANYNJ would be ridiculously stupid to try to block the Q400's. There are going to inevitably be routes where frequencies go down due to the entrance of the Q400. Less frequencies = less congested airport.... and those Q400's can take off on 11/29 all day long, as opposed to ERJ's aren't as lucky depending on their weights and the weather.

[Edited 2007-07-21 04:21:55]
 
747fan
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:14 pm

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 19):
DL is still operating DH8 at JFK...I know its supposed to end sometime soon,

Yep - they'll be out of JFK on August 21. I didn't know CO Connection operated props into JFK - they must've started fairly recently.
 
westindian425
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:15 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 35):
And considering the fact that the Q400's are going to be nearly 2 to 3 ratios vs the ERJ's as far as seats go, PANYNJ would be ridiculously stupid to try to block the Q400's. There are going to inevitably be routes where frequencies go down due to the entrance of the Q400. Less frequencies = less congested airport.... and those Q400's can take off on 11/29 all day long, as opposed to ERJ's aren't as lucky depending on their weights and the weather.

Even we can't do 11/29 as much as before, and from what I hear, the staffing at the tower is the problem (weights were never the issue. We'd always request it if it was available). So even if The Q400's come in (and I'm sure after all the politics have been exhausted, they'll eventually be here), they'd still use the 4/22 parallels.
God did not create aircraft pilots to be on the ground
 
bohica
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:53 pm

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 21):
United moved the UAX operation at SFO to the concourse "thumb", gates 76 to 79.

When I worked for Westair in 1989-91 in SFO we operated out of 76 to 79. It's interesting to see that UA has gone back to "square one".
 
flyboy97502
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:29 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 11):
Most of the t-props being flown by regional airlines are not too slow for the pattern when landing for sure.....departure, now that is another story in most cases.

Have you been on a Q400?
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HowSwedeitis
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:44 pm

Quoting Flyboy97502 (Reply 39):
Have you been on a Q400?

I sure have!!  yes 

Big version: Width: 1310 Height: 855 File size: 352kb
Behold the Q400!!!
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Baron52ta
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RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:44 pm

Quoting Swissgabe (Reply 1):
Why only restrict it to the US?

This is the case because in the US there are other airports close by for the smaller slower commuters to access and it is all to do with maintanence of a fast flow of traffic, you should also note that it doesn't only apply to commuters but it also means that private GA flights can't use major fields either.
 
access-air
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Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 5:30 pm

RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:00 am

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 28):
There are restrictions at DCA

At One Point Eastern wanted to put their A300s into DCA on their old Shuttle flights but the FAA said no even tho it could get in and out of the airport....In hindsight it seems silly when you consider that FedEx operates Airbus Widebodies into Orange Co. SNA and they haver a shorter runway than DCA....

I was actually under the impression from flying into ORD many times on the small Cessna 402 commuter airline I used to work for is that ALL traffic entering the pattern for landing was 160kts.
However I think they want it all to be jets because on takeoff a Jet can get up and out of the way sooner.....However, unless regional are going to bite the bullet and serve small to marginal cities with RJs in effect the Hub airports are discriminating against smaller prop operations.
There should be in place, a provision for landing and takeoff slots being made available for smaller communities that surround and airport such as ORD. The problem is UA and AA have a monopoly on all the slots and they would be hard pressed to give any up....It could be achieved if they (AA and UA) were madated to reduce the amounts of flights by taking away "Express" flights and put full size planes less frequently. If AA and UA do the same in each market that they flood with Endless RJs, then it would also cut down on delays.
Midway Airport in Chicago is getting near capacity as well but who wants to fly into Midway froma smaller community?
Who can you conenct with. As I said in a different thread, with SWA litterally having taken over MDW and their unwillingness to inetrline with anyone MDW is nothing but a waste of time....Look at The failed attempts to rte introduce service form Springfiled, Il. into MDW....

There is nothing wrong propeller operations, I applaud Mesaba for still using SAAB 340s on their flights.
I just think that these big airports think they might be taking a step back by allowing the props back in...The RJs are not good for every short route... Sheesh how many times does this have to be said before someone gets the clue?

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:56 am

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 42):
However I think they want it all to be jets because on takeoff a Jet can get up and out of the way sooner.....

The new Q400 is a rocket for takeoffs, and actually beats the RJ's to an FL250 cruise level.
 
FATFlyer
Posts: 4425
Joined: Fri May 18, 2001 4:12 am

RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:19 am

Quoting Bohica (Reply 38):
When I worked for Westair in 1989-91 in SFO we operated out of 76 to 79. It's interesting to see that UA has gone back to "square one".

An old Westie? Always glad to hear some of you are still around. I did many Bandit flights out of FAT in the 80s and early 90s. I miss the old non-hub routes to OAK, SMF and others from Fresno.

If I remember right, the jetway got added at gate 79 when WestAir started flying the 146s.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
Olympus69
Posts: 1571
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 11:21 pm

RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:42 pm

Quoting Poitin (Reply 26):
The Beech 1900 was bad enough. I do remember one memorial flight in a Bristol Britannia. From JFK to LGW by way of RKV. Thirteen house of pure pain. I was so numb by the time that flight ended, I could have gone to the dentist and had teeth drilled without Novocaine.

It always amuses me how youngsters (under 65) who have never made long flights in piston engined airliners talk about turboprops being loud. Having previously crossed the Atlantic in a DC-4 and a Constellation, my 1958 LHR-YUL flight in a Britannia was the first Transatlantic flight I actually enjoyed. Not only was it shorter than the others - only 10 hours, but it was such a relief being able to converse with my seat neighbor without having to shout in his ear.
 
atct
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:31 am

Back when I worked for Regions Air (Im almost ashamed to admit that) we applied and were to be awarded the EAS service to Lancaster, PA. (LNS). We were going to do two times a day service from CLE and once to EWR. The only problem was, when we did the paperwork or whatever with the EWR airport, we were declined due to at that time EWR was to only be a jet airport. (Before the Q400 announcement).

I can only wonder if Regions actually did their job and flew on time service (haha!) that we would be starting LNS service now to EWR with the arrival of the Q400's....Just a open ended question I guess.

Anywho as a controller, I have really no problem working with the Pt 121 turboprops such as the Saab 340 or the B1900 etc. You just have to know how to work em when their departing. (shoot them inside or outside the big jets, usually not a problem at all). On approach the B1900's are actually better I think. They'll haul butt down the localizer gear and flaps up till short final, drop everything, roll to the last high speed at a good rate of speed down the runway or they'll touchdown, throw in reverse pitch, and pull off in 2000ft....I love em.

ATCT
Trikes are for kids!
 
c680
Posts: 425
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 6:03 am

RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:34 am

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 42):
At One Point Eastern wanted to put their A300s into DCA on their old Shuttle flights but the FAA said no even tho it could get in and out of the airport....In hindsight it seems silly when you consider that FedEx operates Airbus Widebodies into Orange Co. SNA and they haver a shorter runway than DCA....

IIRC that had more to do with the old terminal facilities at DCA than the performance of the A300. The old shuttle facilities at DCA had a hard time dealing with a B727, much less having a full A300 departure lounge.

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 42):
However I think they want it all to be jets because on takeoff a Jet can get up and out of the way sooner

Props produce a lower noise footprint on the ground - just turn them sooner and most of the problems go away. Wake turbulence separation is more of an issue with prop operations.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 30):
I can't imagine an airport banning props.

 checkmark  FAA feels the same way ... most of the time!

Quoting Access-Air (Thread starter):
Is this due to a ban on them because they are too "slow" for the pattern or is it something else....

Actually, most props have a redline in excess of 250 kts. Since that is the speed limit below 10,000 feet, everyone moves at about the same speed on approach. In fact, you can pack more prop arrivals in than jets because a prop can slow down much faster than a jet. Those props act lke speed brakes when put in hi-rpm and low power. Not unheard of for a prop to do 250 kts down to 5 miles out, then slow to under 100 kts Vref for landing, no problems.

Departure is another situation. In that case a prop will climb at a lower rate and airspeed than a jet.
My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
 
A340313X
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 9:03 am

RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:42 am

Do KL's F50s still come to LHR?

I'm pretty sure they are/were the only regular prop service to LHR.
 
wdleiser
Posts: 865
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:32 am

RE: Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props

Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:05 am

bring back the props, Props can use runways that RJ's cannot, props help ground traffic and flow alot.

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