remcor
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Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:47 am

Now I've never flown TAM, but I have flown in Brazil and elsewhere, and I find it hard to believe that TAM is worse than say, Tajikistan airlines, where, for instance, I've seen large cracks in the engine cowling upon entering the plane.

http://www.slate.com/id/2170727/nav/tap3/

And before these two accidents this past year Brazil didn't have that bad of a safety record.

[Edited 2007-07-20 19:48:42]
 
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LTU932
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:17 am

OK, on what basis does the guy consider JJ the "world's worst airline"? I haven't flown them, so I can't pass any judgement on them. Why does he make such a ridiculous statement?
 
OB1504
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:20 am

Looks like we just found a contender for 'World's Worst Slate.com Writer'...  redflag 
 
UK_Dispatcher
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:22 am

To call TAM the world's worst airline is pretty small-minded. Maybe she should try the rest of the world's airlines before coming out with such a sweeping statement.

The article is sensationalist self-indulgence. Who gives two hoots about her and her other half's travel woes.
 
boch
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:24 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
OK, on what basis does the guy consider JJ the "world's worst airline"?

Her boyfriend told her:

Quote:
My boyfriend ...(blah blah blah)... still insists that TAM was the worst air travel experience he's ever had.
KU, KL, PK, CO, AA, US, UA, WN, AS, FL, BR, MH, KE, OZ, PR, 5J
 
osiris30
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:25 am

Feel free to flame this idiotic writer here:

http://fray.slate.com/discuss/forums...4/ShowForum.aspx?ArticleID=2170727

Maybe if enough people post well reasoned rebuttals of this twit's article she'll never write for Slate again...
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
PanAm747
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:25 am

http://aviation-safety.net/database/operator/airline.php?var=5196

This is only TAM's second accident.

Now, as for the article, TAM is the worst airline in the world, but mostly he b****es about Brazil's state of aviation. Exactly how that makes TAM the worst airline, I don't know. But hey, if it gets Slate his fifteen minutes of fame, well, it's a semi-free country!  hissyfit 
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
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cageyjames
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:28 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 5):
Maybe if enough people post well reasoned rebuttals of this twit's article she'll never write for Slate again...

It is an opinion piece, not an article.

No one ever said you had to be informed to have an opinion.  Yeah sure
 
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LTU932
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting Boch (Reply 4):
Her boyfriend told her

OK, so basing one's journalistic opinion on that of his or her significant other is professional? Whatever happened with real investigative journalism?
 
Lemurs
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:33 am

Slate is an opinion online magazine. She wrote an article about her experiences, gave it a shocking headline so people would click on it, and viola...it worked. I guarantee you she could care less about A.net people.

Frankly, after having read more than one experience like hers, I can't blame her. It's not the kind of situation business people would stand for here, but in Brazil no one seems to bat an eye at it. If they don't find ways to manage the transportation issues down there better, it will stunt the growth of what could be a vibrant economy. Money doesn't come to those who are forced to stand in line for 8 hours a day.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
osiris30
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting Cageyjames (Reply 7):
It is an opinion piece, not an article.

No one ever said you had to be informed to have an opinion.

Doesn't matter what kind of article it is.. it deserves to be flamed and she deserves to not work for that sort of crap. I'm sorry but that's capitalizing on misfortune for her own personal gain. The ambulance chaser reporter type... They rank right there with lawyers IMHO (in other words just below roaches)

PS: espiers@earthlink.net if you wanna send her a more personal message  Smile

[Edited 2007-07-20 20:37:22]
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:37 am

TAM is a decent airline.
 
David L
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting Remcor (Thread starter):
and I find it hard to believe that TAM is worse than say, Tajikistan airlines



Quoting Boch (Reply 4):
Her boyfriend told her:

Quote:
My boyfriend ...(blah blah blah)... still insists that TAM was the worst air travel experience he's ever had.

So, maybe her boyfriend did have a bad experience but here's a whacky idea - just bear with me for a moment and stop me if it gets too complicated. If you want to call an airline the Worst in the World, don't you have to know something about most, if not all, the other airlines in the world? Too far-fetched?
 
We're Nuts
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:56 am

Slate.com should send her on permenant assignment to Indonesia.
Dear moderators: No.
 
luisca
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:03 am

Copy of email I wrote to her.

I am writing this email in disgust at your total lack of respect for facts and what seems to be your very personal attack against TAM. I have never flown TAM in my life, and I am not involved with or affiliated to TAM; but as a pilot I am worried about the effects that sensationalist articles like your have on our industry.

I can believe that you may have been inconvenienced by your travel experience with TAM, and you may be angry with how you were treated and maybe the airline was disorganized in its handling, but to link this to the safety of one of the largest airlines in Latin America (if not the largest) is ridiculous and irresponsible.

You show a total disregard for facts or for even trying to understand what you obviously do not know anything about. TAM has a marvelous safety record; started in 1961 it has only had 2 fatal air crashes in the last 20 years, and one incident that caused a death. The first accident, flight 402 out of Sao Paulo was caused by mechanical failure of the thrust reverser that deployed on take off; in this situation there was nothing the pilot could have done and the airport was not responsible for this.

In your article you mention that Congonhas has to short of a runway, but this runway length is not unheard of, and Congonhas is NOT Sao Paulo’s international airport as you probably know, so it does not deal with wide body traffic and although more runway length would be desirable it is not required for safe operation. Congonhas’ problem has and continues to be the fact that it is surrounded by the city, with no overrun areas. If you remember the southwest accident in Chicago Midway you will notice that the same thing can happen in the US.

The fact that you mention that the pilots tried to take off again has not yet been proven, but if they did this is a perfectly normal procedure called a go around, practiced by every single pilot since their first few hours of training and is a procedure that occurs thousands of times every single day all over the world.

Accidents are always a chain of problems leading to a catastrophic outcome, reports of non functioning thrust reversers (which are not required for landing and are not counted with even when they are working), plus a runway that was not grooved, plus the weather conditions are all things that most likely led up to this horrible accident.

Every pilot calculates how much runway he needs before he lands, and the airport itself has calculations that determine what airplanes can and can not land at said airport; unfortunately as I stated above, a series of problems led to this horrible accident.

My point in this email is to ask that if you have any journalistic integrity you ask that that article be removed from the internet, because it is insulting to the entire aviation community and to the victims and family members of this flight.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
sevenair
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airl

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:05 am

Ok this guy girl clearly hasn't flown Ryanair.

[Edited 2007-07-20 21:12:15]
 
osiris30
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:07 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 14):
Copy of email I wrote to her.

Very well said.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
Lemurs
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:07 am

Quoting David L (Reply 12):
So, maybe her boyfriend did have a bad experience but here's a wacky idea - just bear with me for a moment and stop me if it gets too complicated. If you want to call an airline the Worst in the World, don't you have to know something about most, if not all, the other airlines in the world? Too far-fetched?

Not for an opinion piece, no. Her article was relating a terrible travel experience that had some level of relation to a recent tragic accident that was making headlines. No amount of bashing her for being inaccurate will change the fact that it is only an opinion piece.

It's amazing that A.netters react like this, since that is essentially ALL THE SITE IS ABOUT. People writing up their own opinion pieces and then getting flamed by OTHER people who want to write their own opinion pieces.  Yeah sure

Of course, that's just my opinion...

 innocent   laughing 
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
osiris30
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 17):
No amount of bashing her for being inaccurate will change the fact that it is only an opinion piece.

It's amazing that A.netters react like this, since that is essentially ALL THE SITE IS ABOUT.

I believe you are missing the problem that many of us have with her article. It's not her 'opinion' that's the issue. It's the fact that she is relating incovenience while travelling directly to safety, in additions to making assumptions about the accident's cause and the pilots' actions.

The latter two get you flamed for days if you do them here. So we are only holding her to same standard that we hold our own opinions to. Additionally, while she entitled to her opinion, we are equally entitled to call BS on her all day long.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
David L
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 17):
Not for an opinion piece, no

That's not the point. She can say "it's crap" but not that it's "the Worst Airline in the World" without knowing how it compares to others. If you simply mean that she's entitled to her opinion, I'll agree but remind you that we're also entitled to call it BS.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

She hasn't flown Faucett Silly
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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LTU932
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 14):
Copy of email I wrote to her.

Well written e-mail. Please keep us posted on her response.  thumbsup 
 
Falcon84
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:23 am

They have this one accident-terrible, to be sure, and some armchair QB calls them the world's worst carrier?

Again, I know not much about them, either, but talk about a shotgun response!

Quoting David L (Reply 19):
If you simply mean that she's entitled to her opinion, I'll agree but remind you that we're also entitled to call it BS.



Quoting Luisca (Reply 14):

Outstanding letter. Well done!
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Silver764
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:36 am

Great letter!

She can have all the opinions she wants to have but when she tries to tie those opinions to the safety of an airliner and crash of an airliner, she better have some facts.
 
mandala499
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:36 am

Shove her on the next Kabo Air flight and wake her up to reality !  Smile

J/K
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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cageyjames
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airl

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:46 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 10):
Doesn't matter what kind of article it is.. it deserves to be flamed and she deserves to not work for that sort of crap.

Huh? How is an opinion piece anything but an opinion? Flame her all you want though, that is what these are designed to do.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 10):
I'm sorry but that's capitalizing on misfortune for her own personal gain. The ambulance chaser reporter type... They rank right there with lawyers IMHO (in other words just below roaches)

Now I agree with you there, but I'll defend her right to act like an idiot.

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 17):
It's amazing that A.netters react like this, since that is essentially ALL THE SITE IS ABOUT. People writing up their own opinion pieces and then getting flamed by OTHER people who want to write their own opinion pieces.

Agreed.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 18):
while she entitled to her opinion, we are equally entitled to call BS on her all day long.

That isn't what you said above. You said she doesn't deserve to work.

Quoting David L (Reply 19):
If you simply mean that she's entitled to her opinion, I'll agree but remind you that we're also entitled to call it BS.

I don't think that is what people were saying earlier in the thread. They were saying things like "twit" and "never write again". That is different than saying she is totally off base. I think US is the worst airline in the world, but some people disagree with that. Doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to write that. Same here, she is totally off base with her conclusion, but that doesn't mean she shouldn't be able to make such statements in a publication that many would call "fluff journalism".

I mean she was one of the founders of Gawker.com for pete's sake. That should tell you all that you need to know.

[Edited 2007-07-20 21:49:25]
 
osiris30
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting Cageyjames (Reply 25):
That isn't what you said above. You said she doesn't deserve to work.

No.. They are not the same. She's entitled to her opinion. She's NOT entitled to having it published. Big difference (and apparently lost on you).

Having her OPINION published is an honor.. and based on her inability to connect facts logically to each other, she does not deserve the honor of working as a writer again.

You're free to support her assinine statements all you want, but I'm not agreeing with you. Freedom of speach at some point became carte blanche to be a friggin moron. Darwin must be rolling in his grave with our protect the stupid and weak at all costs mentality.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
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cageyjames
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:59 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 26):

No.. They are not the same. She's entitled to her opinion. She's NOT entitled to having it published. Big difference (and apparently lost on you).

Are you kidding me? The first step to censorship is what you are proposing.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 26):
Having her OPINION published is an honor.. and based on her inability to connect facts logically to each other, she does not deserve the honor of working as a writer again.

You do realize why she is published there? It isn't because of an honor or speaking logically. Look up her resume and then you'll understand why she wrote the piece that way.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 26):
You're free to support her assinine statements all you want, but I'm not agreeing with you.

That isn't what I said. I disagree with her writing, but I support her ability to write it. Don't assume differently.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 26):
Freedom of speach at some point became carte blanche to be a friggin moron.

It hasn't stopped folks around here.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 26):
Darwin must be rolling in his grave with our protect the stupid and weak at all costs mentality.

I had no idea Darwin was a free speech supporter.
 
osiris30
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting Cageyjames (Reply 27):
Are you kidding me? The first step to censorship is what you are proposing.

Cry me a river... There's a HUGE difference between censorship and responsible publishing. What was published was NOT responsible. Period. End of story. If that accident had happened in the US she would have been sued for emotional distress by the families of the victims. She's picking on a 3rd world accident to make a few bucks.

Quoting Cageyjames (Reply 27):
You do realize why she is published there? It isn't because of an honor or speaking logically. Look up her resume and then you'll understand why she wrote the piece that way.

Which further supports my view she should not be paid for her work as a writer. If we the consumers stopped reading crap like that, writers like her would stop getting paid and might actually start writing responsibily.

Quoting Cageyjames (Reply 27):
That isn't what I said. I disagree with her writing, but I support her ability to write it. Don't assume differently.

She has no rights to have her opinion published at all. The publication of her idea, as long as it's not by herself, is subject to freemarket conditions. I haven't said she shouldn't be able to publish her own opinion on her little blog.. but I really don't think that article should be picked up by any sort of even psuedo mainstream publication. Additionally, I feel that her actions should result in her never being paid for her 'work' again.

Quoting Cageyjames (Reply 27):
It hasn't stopped folks around here.

Ah yes.. clever retort instead of dealing with the issue.

Quoting Cageyjames (Reply 27):
I had no idea Darwin was a free speech supporter.

You're probably being coy in some fashion which I'm not sure I understand.. the point was, our society is so caught up in looking out for the weak and the stupid that we are watering ourselves down and promoting idiocy and medocrity. If you're dumb enough to use a dry cleaning bag as a helmet, you deserve to suffocate IMHO. Similarly, while folks should have the right to think and say what they want, that does not BY DEFAULT give them the right to a stage upon which to speak.

If she had published this article on her site, I would have simply flamed her for being an idiot. By Slate publishing it, they are party to the idiocy and the whole dynamic of what's being discussed changes. Again, if you can't see the difference I'm sorry.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
n844aa
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:12 am

I read Slate pretty regularly, and when I first saw that headline, I thought, "Wow, this is going to be a controversy on Airliners.net about five minutes ago." I thought about posting it myself, but frankly I didn't really want to be the one to create an outlet for the media-bashing (some of it unjustified) that goes on here constantly. But in any event, I expected very, very little in terms of logic or supportable facts.

And then when I read the article, I was almost pleasantly surprised. A shrill screed? Yep. Does she sound fairly stupid for relying on her boyfriend as her expert witness and the crux of her thesis? Yep. Like I said, given that headline, I was pleasantly surprised with what it turned out to be: an opinion piece (and pretty obviously so, I thought), and one in which she said nothing I didn't think she was entitled to say.

Except, of course, one thing: her statement about feeling smugly justified. I mean ... wow. Just wow. I'm embarrassed for her, and I'm sorry that she didn't have an editor to ask her if that's really what she meant to say. It boggles the mind, and for that statement alone, I think it was a terrible, insensitive article.

I pretty much agree with everything Cageyjames has said with respect to the First Amendment. Let her get this article republished until the cows come home. But I also agree about how part of freedom is being free to act like an idiot, which is exactly what she's done.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
n844aa
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:15 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 28):
If that accident had happened in the US she would have been sued for emotional distress by the families of the victims.

And the families would have lost. It's hard to prove an emotional distress tort.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
Arrow
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:19 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 2):



Quoting Lemurs (Reply 9):
Slate is an opinion online magazine. She wrote an article about her experiences, gave it a shocking headline so people would click on it, and viola...it worked. I guarantee you she could care less about A.net people.

Bingo. I've read worse than this in the trip reports. She had a terrible experience with this airline and she's voicing her opinion after a crash. Given the same experience, anyone would jump to the same conclusion. I was ready to slag British Airways big-time after my experiences last year with lost luggage. And like it or not, the travelling public is entitled to wonder out loud how the airline looks after the airplanes if they can't get them off the ground on time, lose bags, etc. That's just human nature.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 26):
No.. They are not the same. She's entitled to her opinion. She's NOT entitled to having it published.

Better shut down A.net right away. It's full of opinions, and they are all published.

What she did was over the top, but so are some of the reactions in this thread.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
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cageyjames
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:27 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 28):
Cry me a river... There's a HUGE difference between censorship and responsible publishing. What was published was NOT responsible. Period. End of story. If that accident had happened in the US she would have been sued for emotional distress by the families of the victims. She's picking on a 3rd world accident to make a few bucks.

She is a blogger, what kind of well written "article" are you looking for here?

Quote:
Which further supports my view she should not be paid for her work as a writer. If we the consumers stopped reading crap like that, writers like her would stop getting paid and might actually start writing responsibily.

She gets paid because people like her writing. I've never been a fan of Gawker.com at all, but ad revenue seems to follow her wherever she goes. Plus she thinks she is the funniest person around (which is highly debateable IMO) so Salon probably sees her as a great fit to write for their publication.

Quote:
She has no rights to have her opinion published at all.

I'll agree with you there

Quote:
The publication of her idea, as long as it's not by herself, is subject to freemarket conditions.

Which have been proven by her fans at Gawker.com

Quote:
I haven't said she shouldn't be able to publish her own opinion on her little blog..

But Salon is paying her to write this stuff on their site rather than her blog.

Quote:
but I really don't think that article should be picked up by any sort of even psuedo mainstream publication.

Even one that is paying her because of her resume of blogging such junk?

Quote:
Additionally, I feel that her actions should result in her never being paid for her 'work' again.

Sadly that won't be the case as she is quite popular with the young ones (you know those who follow Paris Hilton). The fact of the matter is that she is much more popular than anyone around here.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 28):
Ah yes.. clever retort instead of dealing with the issue.

Excuse me? What are you getting at? You seemed to think only well thought out opinons could be written (at least those you agree with).

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 28):
You're probably being coy in some fashion which I'm not sure I understand.. the point was, our society is so caught up in looking out for the weak and the stupid that we are watering ourselves down and promoting idiocy and medocrity. If you're dumb enough to use a dry cleaning bag as a helmet, you deserve to suffocate IMHO. Similarly, while folks should have the right to think and say what they want, that does not BY DEFAULT give them the right to a stage upon which to speak.

If she had published this article on her site, I would have simply flamed her for being an idiot. By Slate publishing it, they are party to the idiocy and the whole dynamic of what's being discussed changes. Again, if you can't see the difference I'm sorry.

I was making light of your comment because I'm confused with how you can be so outraged over a gossip blogger's opinon of an airline that most of us have a high reguard for.
 
osiris30
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RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:28 am

Quoting N844AA (Reply 30):
And the families would have lost. It's hard to prove an emotional distress tort.

Had that piece been about an accident in the US you can bet that sentence would have been editted out. And you would have been left the the usual 'crap' artcile that's easily over looked.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 31):
Better shut down A.net right away. It's full of opinions, and they are all published.

We pay to have our opinions published here, not the other way around.. and they are more heavily editted than that article.. had I posted that article here on a.net MANY of you defending her 'right to be an idiot' would have suggested deletion for the feeling smug comments.

You folks really make me scratch my head. You sit here and defend her right to say what she wants to say, while at the same time sit idly by as thread after thread is moderated to death on this forum. The strength of your convictions is astounding  sarcastic . Save me the chest thumping Guardian of the First Ammendmant routine guys. If you can honestly say you wouldn't have asked for that artcile to be removed from a.net had it been posted here instead on Slate, then, and only then do you have a leg to stand on. Otherwise you're just being hypocrits.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 31):
What she did was over the top, but so are some of the reactions in this thread.

Thank you. So she's entitled but folks here aren't. Thank you for proving exactly what I was saying above.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:37 am

RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:30 am

She has responded

Hi XXXXX - thanks for your email. I never suggested that TAM was unsafe; I suggested
that they were operationally incompetent on the ground and that domestic travel was
a giant chaotic pain in the ass. And the primary thrust of the piece was that it's
not really TAM's fault that it's like that; it's the lack of infrastructure in
Brazil and the government's unwillingness to spend to money to upgrade air traffic
control, physical assets, etc. Did you read the second page? (re: mechanical
failures and the forward thruster -- is that supposed to make me *more* comfortable
with the airline?)

If I were in your position and a pilot--particularly if i were a TAM pilot--I'd be
infuriated at the way the infrastructure deficiencies cripple national carriers in
Brazil. Keep in mind--it's not the customers who are going on strike to protest low
pay, too few resources and spotty radar--it's the airline workers and air traffic
controllers. People like yourself.

Also - I'm not sure why you'd find this piece insulting to people who were affected
by the accident. If one of my friends or relatives had been involved, the first
thing I'd want to know is what or who was responsible for it and how this sort of
thing can be prevented in the future. And i dont' think staying silent about the
obvious infrastructure deficiencies helps that.


Im at work so I am not sure if i will have time to write a respones, just help me out, besides the Lauda accident over thailand are there more cases of uncommanded thrust reversers in flight?
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
FLYGUY767
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 9):
Frankly, after having read more than one experience like hers, I can't blame her. It's not the kind of situation business people would stand for here, but in Brazil no one seems to bat an eye at it. If they don't find ways to manage the transportation issues down there better, it will stunt the growth of what could be a vibrant economy. Money doesn't come to those who are forced to stand in line for 8 hours a day.

I am very sorry but I find the above response to be both rude and offensive to the nation of Brasil as a whole. Before posting things about other countries, look inside of ones own borders to find problems that dwarf those mentioned above.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
n844aa
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:38 am

RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 33):
Had that piece been about an accident in the US you can bet that sentence would have been editted out. And you would have been left the the usual 'crap' artcile that's easily over looked.

It should have been caught from the perspective of basic human decency. But I think you and I basically agree in this respect.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
osiris30
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:42 am

Quoting Cageyjames (Reply 32):
She is a blogger, what kind of well written "article" are you looking for here?

Seeing as MSN.Com and Slate.Com both picked up, something higher than it was.

Quoting Cageyjames (Reply 32):
But Salon is paying her to write this stuff on their site rather than her blog.

Which blows my mind.. perhaps it's a more a statement on how pathetic society is today and my anger should be directed more broadly. It's not just this one article that I despise.. it's the same as the E Now, and Entertainment Tonight crap. At some point decency, and common sense were deemed unimportant.

Quoting Cageyjames (Reply 32):
Quote:
She has no rights to have her opinion published at all.

I'll agree with you there

Which is where *our* initial disagreement started. My point was that *I* don't think she should ever write (for pay) again. In return people started thumping around about her rights to be published and what not. Those are rights she does not have. No where does the First Amendmant state that you have the right to have your opinion published, except to publish it yourself.

Instead of taking my statements as they were intended (and written I might add), many of you have twisted this into a "Oh we must protect free speech" bit. I fully support freedom of speech. I've actually fought against censorship a number of times in my life (even on these very forums). I've defended people's rights to say things. But that doesn't preclude me from chastising someone for doing something stupid, insensative and ignorant. Nor does that preclude me chastizing publications for promoting said stupidity.

Quoting Cageyjames (Reply 32):
Sadly that won't be the case as she is quite popular with the young ones

You know that.. I know that.. doesn't mean I have to be happy about it. And as long as she's going to take advantage of her avenues to have her say, I'm going to take advantage of mine.

Quoting Cageyjames (Reply 32):
Excuse me? What are you getting at? You seemed to think only well thought out opinons could be written (at least those you agree with).

You'll have to forgive me if I thought that was an attempt to dodge the fact that people outright abuse their freedom of speech intentionally. Which is a horrible injustice/offense to anyone who ever fought for your rights to free speech. Freedom of speech is just not respected as it should be. My point is that just because you can say anything you want, doesn't mean you should.

Quoting Cageyjames (Reply 32):
I was making light of your comment because I'm confused with how you can be so outraged over a gossip blogger's opinon of an airline that most of us have a high reguard for.

Because her 'blog' was picked up by MSN and Slate and will cause financial harm to said airline, that said airline does not deserve. To line her pocket with a few bucks she's played on the misfortune of 200 people's deaths as well as a company, city and national tragedy. People DIED and she's SMUG and making money off it. Forgive me is my moral fibre doesn't permit me to stand here and applaud her use of free speech.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:44 am

Got a feeling her email inbox is goin to be getting filled fast

Sent her an email to both address's asking for a response, doubt i will get one
Where does the time go???
 
osiris30
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 34):
Also - I'm not sure why you'd find this piece insulting to people who were affected
by the accident.

I would respond to that one point specifically.. and tell her that her SMUG feelings are offensive.. and that perhaps she might wish to READ what she wrote as she has apparently forgotten what she wrote.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7864
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:46 am

I've never had a bad experience with TAM. And I've flown quite a variety of airlines.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:49 am

I apologize for this automatic reply to your email.


To control spam, I now allow incoming messages only from senders I have approved beforehand.


If you would like to be added to my list of approved senders, please fill out the short request form (see link below). Once I approve you, I will receive your original message in my inbox. You do not need to resend your message. I apologize for this one-time inconvenience.


Click the link below to fill out the request:

Thats from her earthlink address
Where does the time go???
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 33):
We pay to have our opinions published here, not the other way around..

Published is published. Who pays is irrelevant. The opinions on A.net are available to be read by anyone who clicks on the link. There has been a huge debate over the last few years about who is liable for comments made on sites like A.net, and what jurisdiction would hear a suit -- there have been major court decisions going both ways. If TAM sues this writer for that article, it will be interesting to see where the suit is heard -- in the US where the site's servers and editorial staff are located, or in Brazil where the damage was done.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 33):
Quoting Arrow (Reply 31):
What she did was over the top, but so are some of the reactions in this thread.

Thank you. So she's entitled but folks here aren't. Thank you for proving exactly what I was saying above.

Where did I say A.net members aren't entitled to publish their opinions? They (and I) do it all the time. All I'm saying is that the reactions to her opinion are over the top. That's my opinion. I'm not sayinfg they should be deleted.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
User avatar
cageyjames
Posts: 671
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:08 am

RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 37):
Seeing as MSN.Com and Slate.Com both picked up, something higher than it was.

Possibly because MSN and Slate have an agreement with Salon.com. And I bet the folks on here clicking on the link making it popular doesn't have a thing to do with it. Ad revenue will be up today I'm sure.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 37):
Which blows my mind.. perhaps it's a more a statement on how pathetic society is today and my anger should be directed more broadly. It's not just this one article that I despise.. it's the same as the E Now, and Entertainment Tonight crap. At some point decency, and common sense were deemed unimportant.

At least the world seems to have grown tired with Paris Hilton.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 37):
My point is that just because you can say anything you want, doesn't mean you should.

Agreed

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 37):
Because her 'blog' was picked up by MSN and Slate and will cause financial harm to said airline, that said airline does not deserve.

I'm not sure a gossip blogger will make or break TAM's financial well-being.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 37):
To line her pocket with a few bucks she's played on the misfortune of 200 people's deaths as well as a company, city and national tragedy.

I'd classify that statement as an over reaction to what she wrote. My opinion of course.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 37):
People DIED and she's SMUG and making money off it. Forgive me is my moral fibre doesn't permit me to stand here and applaud her use of free speech.

Her response to the email someone sent seems to point to her feeling that what she has written will save lives in the future.
 
osiris30
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:07 am

Skipping everything till this one cause I think we're in general agreement  Smile

Quoting Cageyjames (Reply 43):
I'm not sure a gossip blogger will make or break TAM's financial well-being.

Not make or break, but impact unduly, possibly.

Quoting Cageyjames (Reply 43):
I'd classify that statement as an over reaction to what she wrote. My opinion of course.

Well I think we can agree to disagree on that one.

Quoting Cageyjames (Reply 43):
Her response to the email someone sent seems to point to her feeling that what she has written will save lives in the future.

Because she knows soooo much about aviation safety.. save lives how.. by having people not fly TAM in future? By having people avoid Brazil? I know what you're saying, but talk about paper thin arguement  Smile (and I know it's her arguement and only yours by proxy... )
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:12 am

Hi Daniel - thanks for your email. I'm a frequent airline traveler, and so is my boyfriend, the aforementioned travel writer, whose assignments have taken him to places where pilots brag about how many crashes they've survived. I can distinguish between normal airline ridiculousness and unusually bad airline ridiculousness.

Also, you and several of the Fray commenters seem to willingly and absurdly misread the syntax in my comment about smugness. I am not smug that the accident happened, i said i was smug (and even then, it was tongue in cheek) about my initial assessment of the airline.

I would suggest you take a look at Brazilian press. you'll notice that everything I said about the underlying causes of TAM's mediocrity has been reported and heavily debated there. So I'm not sure why you'd think that people affected by the tragedy would be offended by an article that points to underlying causes, all of which, if corrected, could prevent this happening again.

You're too hung up on the two paragraphs about my personal experience with TAM, which was merely used to illustrate the chaos on the ground that Brazil's inadequate infrastructure creates for national carriers.

Best,
Elizabeth
Where does the time go???
 
User avatar
cageyjames
Posts: 671
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:08 am

RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:28 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 44):
I know what you're saying, but talk about paper thin arguement

This is what happens with the general public gets involved with aviation. Of course she should know about poor customer service being from New York. Between what happened with JetBlue in JFK and having to deal with US Airways in LGA, she knows a stinker when she sees it.  duck 
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:37 am

RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:43 am

Quoting Trekster (Reply 41):
To control spam, I now allow incoming messages only from senders I have approved beforehand.
Shes probably getting emailed out the wazoo and got sick of it. I will let you guys know if my reply gets accepted or not.

Here is my reply

I have to disagree with your response; you did say that TAM was unsafe. Calling them the worst airline in the world and saying that after the accident on Tuesday you felt "smugly justified" because your bad customer service experience was somehow was an omen of what would happen.

Sure there are many infrastructure problems in Brazil, but Brazilian airspace is by no means dangerous, let me remind you it is the busiest airspace in Latin America and Brazil is a Category 1 country according to the US Federal Aviation Administration, the highest safety rating their is. The fact is that until the Gol Accident some months ago and the recent TAM accident, Brazil had a pretty much flawless safety record.

You irresponsibly label TAM in your article as the "worst airline in the world" how come both the FAA and the European Union disagree with you and consider TAM and Brazil as safe countries for flight? TAM is not in the European Union Black list and they operate without any restrictions to the US. Have you flown airlines in Sub Saharan Africa or South Asia? How did you research to come up with such conclusion?

Coming up with the ridiculous claim that TAM is the worst airline in the world and smugly saying I told you so about their safety and Tuesdays crash is just amazing. This is why I fell that your article is badly written, badly researched, biased, irresponsible and insulting.

And finally, just to prove how little you know about aviation, there is no such thing as a forward thrust reverser, it is called a thrust reverser period, it deploys upon landing to reverse the flow of air and aid in slowing the aircraft down. In flight deployment of this is catastrophic, Besides the TAM accident there has been one other accident were this happened unintentionally, it was in 1991 Lauda Air(Austria) flight 004 over Thailand, a Boeing 767, it was not maintenance of the airline or pilot error, it was an unfortunate malfunction (and the airplane was US made to let you know). The TAM accident I described was also un commanded and a mechanical failure, not due to maintenance (in this case the airplane was dutch manufactured).

I hope next time you wish to write such an "article" you take your time to research.


[Edited 2007-07-20 23:57:06]
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:49 am

Good response there.

I sent a follow up email, but no response as yet.
Kinda surpirsed i got a reply so fast
Where does the time go???
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18838
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'

Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:09 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 6):
This is only TAM's second accident.

Your data is incomplete. They have had 8 fatal accidents since 1979.

1 - A320
3 - F-100
1 - F-27
3 - EMB110

They're listed twice in Aviation-Safety.net since their legal name changed when they went public, but it's basically the same airline. Only counting the 2 accidents in your link is like only counting AC accidents since they changed their name from Trans-Canada Air Lines to Air Canada. It's the same company but listed separately under both names.

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