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1337Delta764
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Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:58 am

I am wondering, if Alitalia liquidates (which hopefully won't happen), is there a possible chance that Delta could acquire some or all of Alitalia's 777-200ERs? Even though that any brand new 777 for Delta would either be a 777-200LR or 777-300ER, some used 777-200ERs from Alitalia might be a cheaper option. Alitalia's 777-200ERs are GE-powered. Even though Delta's current 777-200ERs are RR-powered, Delta is acquiring some GE-powered 777-200LRs, and because of that, commonality won't be a major issue.

While I would not like to see Alitalia liquidate, I am just considering the possibilities.
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ChiGB1973
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:09 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
s there a possible chance that Delta could acquire some or all of Alitalia's 777-200ERs?

Yes, as it's possible for any airline that wants and can afford triple sevens if the planes go on the market.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Even though that any brand new 777 for Delta would either be a 777-200LR or 777-300ER,

-300ER?

M
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 1):
-300ER?

Yes, if Delta's international capacity continues to increase, I wouldn't be suprised if Delta were to order some 777-300ERs. I would be quite suprised though if Delta were to acquire some 747s or A380s.
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dutchjet
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:18 am

Think CO.......CO's 772ERs are powered by the same GE engines as the AZ aircraft are equipped with; if anyone makes a fast move for the Altialia 772ERs, I think that it would be CO.

With regard to DL, while anything is possible, their 772ERs are RR powered and the 772LRs (and potential 773ERs) will be GE powered....the GE powered 772ER airplanes from Altialia would add a third variant to the 777 fleet. Having so many variants of the 777 (each in small numbers for now) would probably not make much economic sense for DL. Another thing to consider.....many think that DL has un-announced commitments for more 772LRs and 773ERs; DL is under some pressure from Boeing to take additional aircraft (DL has deferred and modified its orders with Boeing many many times in the past years as DL was having problems and when DL was reorganizing) and may be focusing on new build aircraft from Boeing in the near-term future to fulfill its obligations under its agreements with Boeing.

Time will tell.
 
kaitak
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:20 am

I don't see Delta going for anything bigger than 777s; indeed, I would be quite surprised if they went for -300ERs; I would expect them to go for -200LRs and/or more -200ERs. AZ's aircraft will certainly be tempting, even though DL now has RR Trents.

Wouldn't the AZ aircraft be more attractive to Continental, or even Air France, given that they are GE powered. Maybe even KL might be interested. Whoever takes them, I doubt if they'll be homeless for long.
 
yellowtail
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:41 am

They will be gone before you can say Jack Flash.

Lots of arilines want 777 right now.....CO/DL/KL/RG/JJ....aybe even BA would snap them up
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dl767captain
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:47 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 2):

There is no way DL will order the A380
 
lijnden
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:54 am

I guess they will be parked first for a while under the currator pending upon location of planes at the time of BK. Same happens all the time (Swissair, Sabena, Varig, Braniff, Eastern). This period might take a few days up to many months. Other factors that play a role are the country of registration, claims on aircraft (e.g. fueling companies or ground handling companies might keep a plane grounded with the help of local courts untill bills are paid).
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FlagshipAZ
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:57 am

Three carriers will probably never again operate a 4-engined aircraft.....American, Continental & Delta. The 747 & A380 are simply too big for them. Perhaps, and maybe, the 773 might find its way into the legacies. Alitalia's 777s being GE-powered, would go to any carriers needing 777s the most, whether they have an existing fleet of GEed 777s or being a new aircraft type within their fleet. DL won't want them unless they're 777LRs or RR-powered 772s. Just my 2 cents.
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MCOflyer
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:58 am

Who owns the T7's? Also, DL might acquire the 763ER if the deal is good. The only way I can DL getting these if they can do easy MX on them.

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CALMSP
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:04 am

there has long been talk about picking up AZ 777's..............as was the RG 777's that were compatible with us.
 
CO787EWR
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:05 am

I think CO would grab them before DL, are the AZ 777's the same MTOW as CO, that might be a problem.

[Edited 2007-07-21 00:06:39]
 
kaitak744
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:15 am

Well, pretty soon, won't Singapore start letting go of a few 777-200ERs when their A330-300s arrive?
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:24 am

DL isn't currently interested in SQs 777s as the ones that will be up soon are high-time birds (ie. fly regional SE Asia).

As for AZs, while in theory it would add an incremental type to the fleet - the frame is the frame. The GE94s offer some degree (albeit limited) of commonality with the GE110s.

Remember, DL is no stranger to opping multiple engine types on fleets - 767s come to mind (just under 45% are PW while the rest are GE). Adding used 777s to the fleet helps in uplift capacity.

That being said, I haven't heard any rumblings on interest in AZs birds, but what do I know...
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blueflyer
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:25 am

That is, assuming that the Italian government doesn't "arrange" the bankruptcy the way the Belgian and Swiss governments have intervened for Sabena and Swissair respectively.

My best is on most, if not all, of the Alitalia 777s never getting on the market long enough to be acquired, be it by DL or CO or someone else.

Note: I'm not implying that any aforementioned government or bankruptcy was illegal in any way, but simply that the bankruptcy of a national carrier (even a de facto one) is such a political and emotional issue in Europe that it will not be handled the same way that the bankruptcy of Luigi's Ferrari/Fiat dealership would be.
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Evan767
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:29 am

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 6):
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 2):


There is no way DL will order the A380

Which is what he stated..
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:37 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 13):
Remember, DL is no stranger to opping multiple engine types on fleets - 767s come to mind (just under 45% are PW while the rest are GE). Adding used 777s to the fleet helps in uplift capacity.

Not to mention, Delta operates two variants of GE engines on the 767s. Most of the non-ER 767-300s, except for the last four of them, use CF6-80A engines. Delta's last four non-ER 767-300s and most of the older 767-300ERs (except for the ex-Gulf Air aircraft) use PW4000 engines. Most of the newer 767-300ERs, 767-400ERs, and ex-Gulf Air 767-300ERs use CF6-80C2 engines.
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phollingsworth
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:45 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 16):
Most of the newer 767-300ERs, 767-400ERs, and ex-Gulf Air 767-300ERs use CF6-80C2 engines.

Also keep in mind that the ex-Gulf Air B763ERs have different CF6-80C2s than the DL ordered B763/4ERs.
 
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:52 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
Think CO.......CO's 772ERs are powered by the same GE engines as the AZ aircraft are equipped with; if anyone makes a fast move for the Altialia 772ERs, I think that it would be CO.

With regard to DL, while anything is possible, their 772ERs are RR powered and the 772LRs (and potential 773ERs) will be GE powered....the GE powered 772ER airplanes from Altialia would add a third variant to the 777 fleet.

While CO would certainly like to quickly have add'l longhaul capacity, it makes far less sense for CO to go after used 777s when CO has 787s coming in less than 2 years.... besides, I don't think CO has much of a history of being used aircraft. Let me know if you can think of any recent examples.

I too haven't heard if DL is interested in any AZ assets but DL is clearly interested in cementing its position as the 2nd largest transoceanic carrier from Italy. It isn't out of the realm of possibility that DL could propose service enhancements in return for aircraft assets.
 
ChiGB1973
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:03 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18):
don't think CO has much of a history of being used aircraft. Let me know if you can think of any recent examples.

753s from TZ.

M
 
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:04 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 2):
I wouldn't be suprised if Delta were to order some 777-300ERs.

..I highly doubt we'll see the B773ER in DL colours.....it wouldn't have enough routes to provide the flexibility...the -200ER and -200LR are the largest variants of the 777's DL needs....

Both AA and DL are two of the largest carriers in the world and have done it w/out the need of anything larger than a -200ER..and in DL's case, they have only a handful of those...where as AA has 40+ B777's as well as a bunch of A300's.......DL could grow by adding -200ER's/-200LR's....

Regards...
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na
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:06 am

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 5):
They will be gone before you can say Jack Flash.

Many of UAs 777s spend years in the desert as did two of ex-BA-777s (one of which is scrapped right now). And there are some ex-Varig 777s which were parked for a year before Brunei took them.
 
Fyano773
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:19 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Alitalia's 777-200ERs are GE-powered



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
Think CO.......CO's 772ERs are powered by the same GE engines as the AZ aircraft are equipped with; if anyone makes a fast move for the Altialia 772ERs, I think that it would be CO.



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 4):
Wouldn't the AZ aircraft be more attractive to Continental, or even Air France, given that they are GE powered. Maybe even KL might be interested. Whoever takes them, I doubt if they'll be homeless for long.

AeroMexico's 777 are also GE powered and knows how to move fast; remember RG's GE 777? Both of them are now with AM to fly the MEX-GRU route.

PS - One future route in the map for AM is MEX-MXP/FCO  Wink

Fyano
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:22 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 9):
Who owns the T7's? Also, DL might acquire the 763ER if the deal is good. The only way I can DL getting these if they can do easy MX on them.

Also, I don't see Delta acquring any additional 767s. Delta has shown strong interest in the 787, and would prefer to get their hands on some brand new 787s rather than on used 767s. However, they do feature the same exit layout as most of Delta's 767-300s (except for the ex-Gulf Air aircraft) feature and use CF6-80C2 engines.
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dutchjet
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:43 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18):
While CO would certainly like to quickly have add'l longhaul capacity, it makes far less sense for CO to go after used 777s when CO has 787s coming in less than 2 years.... besides, I don't think CO has much of a history of being used aircraft. Let me know if you can think of any recent examples.

Whether or not CO would acquire the 772ERs is a long term business decision.....if the AZ GE powered 772ERs were to become available on reasonable lease terms, CO would certainly take a long hard look at the deal. As for CO picking up used aircraft.......how about the 8 ex-ATA 757-300s now with CO that were picked up on very good terms?
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:51 am

good point on the 753s. I wouldn't rule CO in or out on picking up used 777s but there would have to be some routes that REALLY need to be started right away to justify buying used widebodies when a goodly number of the 787s are coming right around the corner.
 
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:55 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 25):
I wouldn't rule CO in or out on picking up used 777s but there would have to be some routes that REALLY need to be started right away to justify buying used widebodies when a goodly number of the 787s are coming right around the corner.

Additional routes to India, China, Asia of course all come to mind........and IAH-EZE could use a 772ER right now.
 
CO787EWR
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:00 am

Even with the 787 coming a group of lets say six 777's would help a lot, most here believe that CO is going to get the nod for EWR-PVG in '09 thats leaves us with four 777's left MAN could go back to one 777 then allow two 757's to go new markets or go and replace a 767 that has the legs for EWR-VIE/EWR-Moscow. Most speculate that CO is dying for IAH-DXB, which would take 2 777's also. The more 777's CO receives in the short time allows for more expansion.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:01 am

of course there are routes that could use it... but that doesn't mean it makes sense to pick up used airplanes to satisfy a couple year requirement.

I don't honestly see CO sending a 777 to S. America. There is little benefit over the 764 for a segment of that length and CO isn't even using the 764.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:04 am

I can see CO and AM battling over the T7's. Unless DL is in Negotiations, good luck.

Hunter
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worldtraveler
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:12 am

oh please.... AM or CO or DL will not get into a bidding war over a bunch of 777s. There are financial analyses that have to be done by any company before its BOD will approve the transaction. If the deal doesn't make sense, it won't happen for anyone. And as a reminder, there are far more 777s than any one of those airlines could take in one transaction AND AZ IS NOT DEAD. Yet.
 
CO787EWR
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:16 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 28):

The 787's are most likely replacing the 762's first so the 772's still have some life left in them and CO just got two new 772's last year(IIRC). So I believe that the 777's will be flying until 787-10X gets built, that is looking to be what 2013 and beyond.

I agree with you on the South America comment I highly doubt they are flying to South America.

Sorry I don't want to sound rude

Back on Topic

DL doesn't seem to mind different engined planes so it looks like they will make a move

[Edited 2007-07-21 03:19:31]
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:29 am

Quoting CO787EWR (Reply 31):
The 787's are most likely replacing the 762's first so the 772's still have some life left in them and CO just got two new 772's last year(IIRC). So I believe that the 777's will be flying until 787-10X gets built, that is looking to be what 2013 and beyond.

I doubt very seriously that CO will use its first several 787s for 767 replacement. Since DL is gunning to start every possible route it can before CO gets its 787s, I am sure CO will play catchup very quickly. If CO can find a buyer at the right price for the 762s and if demand starts falling off, CO will start replacing them.

Quoting CO787EWR (Reply 31):
DL doesn't seem to mind different engined planes so it looks like they will make a moIve

DL is probably the least concerned US airline about engine commonality - and since AA maintains DL's RR Trents, it doesn't matter anyway. I don't know what DL's plans are for the GE90s but I wouldn't be surprised if DL contracts that out. So it really doesn't matter what engines they buy. Once they have a critical mass, as they do for CF6s and PW2000/4000s, they become experts and start insourcing for other carriers.

It still comes down to a business decision - if the price is right and DL can find a place for the capacity, they will acquire them. But the same thing can be said about any other carrier. AZ does have a pretty good sized 777 fleet - which means they are not likely to be absorbed by one carrier all at once.
 
da man
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:34 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 32):
If CO can find a buyer at the right price for the 762s

I don't think that would be a problem since their 10 762s are some of if not the newest pax 762s in existence.
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worldtraveler
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:39 am

yes but they aren't terribly popular as passenger a/c because the costs are almost the same as the larger 763. They are more likely to end up w/ cargo carriers.
 
da man
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:42 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 34):
yes but they aren't terribly popular as passenger a/c because the costs are almost the same as the larger 763. They are more likely to end up w/ cargo carriers.

True, but since they're newer reason leads me to believe that the lower number of hours and cycles compared to the other (older) 762s around would make these frames the most attractive of any.
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WesternA318
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:44 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Alitalia's 777-200ERs are GE-powered.



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
Think CO.......CO's 772ERs are powered by the same GE engines as the AZ aircraft are equipped with; if anyone makes a fast move for the Altialia 772ERs, I think that it would be CO.

 checkmark 

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18):
While CO would certainly like to quickly have add'l longhaul capacity, it makes far less sense for CO to go after used 777s when CO has 787s coming in less than 2 years.... besides, I don't think CO has much of a history of being used aircraft. Let me know if you can think of any recent examples.

Let's see...the ex-ATA 757-300's, quite a few DC-10-30's were picked up from 1991 until the introduction and assimilation of the T7 and new batch 762/764s. Before Gordon, Texas Air placed just about every type of major airliner in CO colors regardless of age. You had DC-9-10's mixing it up with A300's and 737-300's. Before the Big Bang and Lorenzo's folly, the Bob Six and Al Feldman CO picked up 727-100's and 720B's second-hand from sources such as TWA, and others.
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worldtraveler
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:45 am

but you still have to compare them to other 762s, not 763s. The higher aircraft related CASM of a 762 does not necessarily offset the higher maintenance costs of a proportionately older 763. Costs are a big reason why the 762ER is just not a very popular aircraft.

[Edited 2007-07-21 03:46:44]
 
jr
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:55 pm

What DL should do is arrange a 1 for 1 swap of their current RR powered birds with BA for GE90 powered birds, and not worry about RRs on the 777s. I guess thats easier said than done, and like someone already pointed out, it probably doesn't matter when the maintenance is being contracted out.
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:05 pm

The CO 787's may or may not replace 762 aircraft. It all depends on the economy, markets and fuel prices. If fuel is relatively low and the economy is good, then the 762 will stay around. If the opposite is true then the 762's can be replaced by 787 aircraft. That's the beauty of CO's flexible fleet options in the next five years.

Picking up about 6 772ER aircraft, if the price is right, the aircraft are in good shape and can be easily converted to CO configuration would assist in expansion. The recently received 772ER planned for EWR-PVG will be soon flying EWR-BOM and the 2009 EWR-PVG award, which we assume will happen, means CO will have to downgrade somewhere else to pull two more 772ERs.

I'm sure there are more 772ER routes to be assessed and could be started if more 772ERs were available and many of these routes take two units each. Some have been mentioned like IAH-DXB, but others may include EWR-ICH, EWR-TPE, EWR-GUM, EWR-DXB, plus potential added frequencies in markets like EWR-TLV and upgrades on several European routes to free ups some 762/764 aircraft for Eastern Europe expansion.
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CO787EWR
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:32 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 39):

I thought the 762's were sure thing to be leaving CO's fleet thanks for your insight on that. Also thanks for clearing up what I was trying to say in my post.
 
WesternA318
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:16 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 39):
Some have been mentioned like IAH-DXB, but others may include EWR-ICH, EWR-TPE, EWR-GUM, EWR-DXB, plus potential added frequencies in markets like EWR-TLV and upgrades on several European routes to free ups some 762/764 aircraft for Eastern Europe expansion.

Doesn't the 764 have the legs to do EWR-GUM?
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dutchjet
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:55 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 28):
I don't honestly see CO sending a 777 to S. America. There is little benefit over the 764 for a segment of that length and CO isn't even using the 764.

The 777 has been used on the IAH-EZE route one or two days per week this past winter (usually on a Thrusday out of IAH) and all of those seats were filled, sounds good to me. I dont really understand your point as to why a 777 would not be appropriate for a route to South America, especially IAH-EZE which is over 5000 miles in length.

Quoting Da man (Reply 33):

I don't think that would be a problem since their 10 762s are some of if not the newest pax 762s in existence.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 34):
yes but they aren't terribly popular as passenger a/c because the costs are almost the same as the larger 763. They are more likely to end up w/ cargo carriers

There is some very serious interest in the 762ERs from cargo carriers, there will be no problem selling off these very capable and very young airplanes.

Quoting Jr (Reply 38):
What DL should do is arrange a 1 for 1 swap of their current RR powered birds with BA for GE90 powered birds, and not worry about RRs on the 777s. I guess thats easier said than done, and like someone already pointed out, it probably doesn't matter when the maintenance is being contracted out

Lets just say that we can be pretty sure that this is not happening.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 37):
but you still have to compare them to other 762s, not 763s. The higher aircraft related CASM of a 762 does not necessarily offset the higher maintenance costs of a proportionately older 763. Costs are a big reason why the 762ER is just not a very popular aircraft.

So much depends upon whether the airplane is hauling a full load......CO went with the smaller capacity 762ER years ago since it did not want the extra seats offered by the 763ER; too many seats in a market can bring down yeilds. The 762ER was ordered specifically for longer routes where a good number of premium seats are required. Ten years later, it can be debated if the 762ER was the best choice since so much has changed. In the meantime, the CO 762ERs will continue on and if all of its seats are filled, and its belly is filled with cargo, its an airplane that CO can make money with.

Quoting CO787EWR (Reply 40):
I thought the 762's were sure thing to be leaving CO's fleet thanks for your insight on that. Also thanks for clearing up what I was trying to say in my post

That the 762ERs will leave the CO fleet upon delivery of the first 787s is a rumor that took a life of its own here at a.net. As pointed out, there are no definite plans as to when the 762ERs will be retired.....the first 10 to 20 787s will likely be used by CO for expansion and later deliveries may be used to allow the retirement of the 762ER fleet; so much depends upon (1) the economic situation and (2) the price of oil in the merdium-term future.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 39):
I'm sure there are more 772ER routes to be assessed and could be started if more 772ERs were available and many of these routes take two units each.

True, most of the long range routes opeated by the 772ER require two airplanes.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 39):
I'm sure there are more 772ER routes to be assessed and could be started if more 772ERs were available and many of these routes take two units each. Some have been mentioned like IAH-DXB, but others may include EWR-ICH, EWR-TPE, EWR-GUM, EWR-DXB, plus potential added frequencies in markets like EWR-TLV and upgrades on several European routes to free ups some 762/764 aircraft for Eastern Europe expansion

Also consider that CO would like to get a widebody aircraft back on the EWR-MAN route, EWR-EDI could probably support a larger airplane, and CO has done rather well flying the 772ER on EWR-BRU and if another 772ER was available, BRU could certainly support the capacity especially up front where the 48 BizElite seats have been going out filled day in, day out. EWR-GUM is very unlikely to happen (if anything, IAH-GUM would be launched and that is a long shot) and I dont see extra flights being added to the EWR-TLV schedule.....but do consider that IAH could support additional flights to Europe, Asia and South America.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 41):
Doesn't the 764 have the legs to do EWR-GUM?

I dont think so.
 
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:02 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 41):
Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 39):
Some have been mentioned like IAH-DXB, but others may include EWR-ICH, EWR-TPE, EWR-GUM, EWR-DXB, plus potential added frequencies in markets like EWR-TLV and upgrades on several European routes to free ups some 762/764 aircraft for Eastern Europe expansion.

Doesn't the 764 have the legs to do EWR-GUM?

Not even close. EWR-GUM is no less than 6908nm long. The 764's range is only 5625nm, and even the 762's range at 6590nm would not be enough, hence the only plane in CO's fleet that could do it is the 777, and I strongly doubt CO would even consider throwing such a large plane into what must be a very small market.
 
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:23 pm

I know that everyone has mentioned CO as a likely customer for AZ's 777s if AZ liquidates, but think about it: who needs 777s more - DL or CO? CO already has a decently sized 777 fleet. With the six 777-200LRs coming for Delta, Delta will have a total of 14 777s, still shy of CO's 20. Maybe if AZ does liquidate, there may be more than one buyer for the 777s.
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 42):
The 777 has been used on the IAH-EZE route one or two days per week this past winter (usually on a Thrusday out of IAH) and all of those seats were filled, sounds good to me. I dont really understand your point as to why a 777 would not be appropriate for a route to South America, especially IAH-EZE which is over 5000 miles in length.

Bingo. It is almost impossible to get a J seat on IAH-EZE on short notice, it is always full. I took the 772 to EZE twice in March and it was completely full in J both times. Using 772s on the route if they became available would seem like a no-brainer to me, unless I'm missing something.
 
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RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:09 pm

Instead of just speculating on the fate of Alitalia's 777s, why not speculate on the other aircraft if AZ liquidates?

  • Airbus A319 - These aircraft could maybe go to United, Frontier, or US Airways.
  • Airbus A320 - Same as the A319
  • Airbus A321 - Maybe to US Airways
  • Boeing 767-300ER - This one is a hard one. While there is still a market for used 767s, I can't think of an airline who would be interested. I don't think Delta will buy them, as they are showing strong interest in the 787. Same goes for AA. Maybe some Japanese carrier may be interested.
  • MD-80 - Some of these may possibly go to Allegiant. Delta probably won't be interested as they are not MD-88s. I don't think that AA would be interested either, as they have started a plan to retire some of the oldest MD-80s in the fleet and replace them with 737-800s.
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    RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

    Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:13 pm

    Keep in mind that according to AirFleets, DL has far more international capabile aircraft than CO.

    DL: 58 763ER and 21 764ER vs. CO: 10 762ER and 16 764ER.
    DL: 104 752 vs. CO: 41 (unknown how many of DL 752 are ETOPS and HGTOW aircraft) The DL number does probably not include the ex-TWA aircraft they are receiving.

    While DL is reassigning the 763 and 764 aircraft internationally instead of flying them on routes like ATL-MCO, one would assume they have not assigned most of these aircraft internationally. Coupled with ex-TWA and possibly other 752 aircraft, DL has capability to add more international services. While DL may want more ultra long haul flying in addition to the 6 772LRs on order, they may indeed need to order more narrowbodies to replace 763ER and 764 domestic flying and look toward the 787, which could arrive by the time all the internationally capable aircraft are assigned for that purpose. That is probably a better option than adding another small subfleet of used aircraft..
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    RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

    Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:29 pm

    Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 47):
    unknown how many of DL 752 are ETOPS and HGTOW aircraft

    Currently, the only 757s that are ETOPS-rated in Delta's fleet are the ex-ATA 757s. These aircraft are used on Latin American flights.

    Delta is also ETOPSing some of the non-ER domestic 767-300s, mainly for they can be used on Hawaii routes. However, some of the non-ER ETOPS 767-300s may be assigned on certain international routes seasonally and be sold as all coach.

    All 767-300ERs are currently on international routes. Last year Delta had eight 767-300ERs in domestic configuration, but they were converted to international. By 2009 Delta will have all of their 767-400ERs in international configuration as well.
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    RE: Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?

    Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:32 pm

    Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18):
    While CO would certainly like to quickly have add'l longhaul capacity, it makes far less sense for CO to go after used 777s when CO has 787s coming in less than 2 years.... besides, I don't think CO has much of a history of being used aircraft. Let me know if you can think of any recent examples.

    8 757-300s from ATA, and a whole bunch of DC-10s during the late 1990s

    Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18):
    it makes far less sense for CO to go after used 777s when CO has 787s coming in less than 2 years....



    Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 28):
    don't honestly see CO sending a 777 to S. America. There is little benefit over the 764 for a segment of that length and CO isn't even using the 764.

    As mentioned IAH-EZE could use a 777-200ER, CO also will need the additional 777-200ERs to boost capacity on EWR-MXP and EWR-FCO with the loss of AZ on those routes. Also as mentioned Manchester, Madrid, Brussels and the 2009 EWR-PVG need 777-200ER capacity.
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