LAXDESI
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Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:34 am

Interesting interview with Jet CEO Goyal on North American plans. I think the SFO and LAX routes will be connected through Shanghai, and ORD and JFK through BRU.
http://www1.economictimes.indiatimes..._US_flight/articleshow/2224622.cms

Quotes:
Private Indian carrier Jet Airways, which begins its US operations next month, has ruled out entering into a price war with other airlines and expects to attract passengers by offering top-class services. "We are not here to get into fare wars. We are here to give you the best product, which hopefully no other airline gives you," Chairman Jet Airways Naresh Goyal said in an interview posted on the website of Forbes magazine.

Goyal said American passenger-airlines "dump people" from one point to another. But "With us, you get a hot meal within a half-hour of takeoff. It's a three-course meal in every section of the airplane -- even in coach," he said. Asked by the interviewer how would be airline offer best quality service without raising fares, he said the carrier would increase productivity. "It's (productivity) higher and better than other carriers. Our cost ratio in aircraft is one of the lowest in the world," he said.

Jet makes its maiden US flight to Newark airport from Mumbai next month. This will be followed by Toronto on September 5 as part of efforts to tap the 800,000 Indians living in Canada, he said. "We'll start service to JFK, San Francisco, Chicago and L.A. (Los Angeles) in the next year," he added.

Goyal also dismissed views that Jet's planned expansion in North America was "too fast". "There is traffic already. You don't have to do anything and traffic exists. There are 2.5 million Indian-Americans living in the US. We want to serve that population. Also, Indian companies are becoming global. People in the west used to think India is something hidden. Today, US companies have so much
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:42 am

Wow, CO you had better start upgrading your product fast, or get caught is the draft.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:43 am

no , unless this is an additional service LAX is also through BRU - this was announced several weeks ago in BRU

the intention is to have flights from 5 cities in India BOM ; DEL ; MAA ; BLR ; AMD to BRU and then continuing on to 5 North American airports : EWR ; YYZ ; LAX ; ORD ; JFK
 
st530
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:47 am

Why not serve IAH, beat Air India to the punch, and take further advantage of the new CO codeshare?
 
LAXDESI
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:55 am

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
no , unless this is an additional service LAX is also through BRU - this was announced several weeks ago in BRU

the intention is to have flights from 5 cities in India BOM ; DEL ; MAA ; BLR ; AMD to BRU and then continuing on to 5 North American airports : EWR ; YYZ ; LAX ; ORD ; JFK

I stand corrected. Perhaps they should drop plans to route SFO through Shanghai and instead offer it through BRU and add HYD or CCU as an additional departure city on the Indian side.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:35 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 4):
I stand corrected. Perhaps they should drop plans to route SFO through Shanghai and instead offer it through BRU and add HYD or CCU as an additional departure city on the Indian side.

perhaps - my understanding is that the rights for PVG-SFO are by no means certain whereas the Belgian government has , I believe , granted 9W unlimited rights - the only problem is that India to SFO via BRU is a lot further than via SHA
( although the same argument could be made for LAX )
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 5):
the only problem is that India to SFO via BRU is a lot further than via SHA

A popular run, the "Bangalore Express", SFO-FRA-BLR, is actually shorter than the current AI offering over the Pacific via TPE/HKG and SIN, and much more convenient, since there isn't a 9-hour layover in FRA, like there is to the best connection at SIN.

SFO-FRA-BLR 10313 mi.
SFO-TPE-SIN-BLR 10437 mi.

The real breakthroughs will be service via PVG, or some other spot in the Far East not as far south as SIN, or nonstop. Otherwise, BRU is just as convenient a stopover from the west coast as FRA seems to be, only 26 miles further.
International Homo of Mystery
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:18 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
popular run, the "Bangalore Express", SFO-FRA-BLR, is actually shorter than the current AI offering over the Pacific via TPE/HKG and SIN, and much more convenient, since there isn't a 9-hour layover in FRA, like there is to the best connection at SIN.

SFO-FRA-BLR 10313 mi.
SFO-TPE-SIN-BLR 10437 mi.

The real breakthroughs will be service via PVG, or some other spot in the Far East not as far south as SIN, or nonstop. Otherwise, BRU is just as convenient a stopover from the west coast as FRA seems to be, only 26 miles further.

good point , although when you compare onestop services such as DEL-BRU-SFO (8276 nm ) to DEL-PGV-SFO (7666 nm) or BLR-BRU-SFO ( 8984 nm ) to BLR-PVG-SFO ( 8012 nm) you get a more significant difference , on the other hand , I cant see the Chinese government permitting a BRU style hub operation at PVG for 9W and if the flights are timed well at BRU you may still be talking a shorter overall transit time over a much larger number of city pairs ( as well as making life a great deal more convenient for those of us living in BRU Big grin )
 
jacobin777
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:44 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
The real breakthroughs will be service via PVG, or some other spot in the Far East not as far south as SIN, or nonstop.

....AI is commencing BLR-SFO nonstop very soon..that will beat any connections...
"Up the Irons!"
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:06 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 8):
....AI is commencing BLR-SFO nonstop very soon..that will beat any connections...

That's what I said, didn't I? That's one on my list where the real breakthroughs will come.
International Homo of Mystery
 
N62NA
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:14 am

I just checked the price for First class EWR-BRU for September - it's about $10,000/person roundtrip. Yes, that sounds like alot of $$$, but it's $6,000 cheaper than AA to LHR in F class.

And oh, that private suite that they have in F class on 9W. It looks great!
 
jacobin777
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:44 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 9):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 8):
....AI is commencing BLR-SFO nonstop very soon..that will beat any connections...

That's what I said, didn't I? That's one on my list where the real breakthroughs will come.

...er no, not really..you were discussing that it would be advantageous to fly nonstop....not the fact AI was definitely going to start flying BLR-SFO nonstop....big difference...
"Up the Irons!"
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:17 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 11):
not the fact AI was definitely going to start flying BLR-SFO nonstop....big difference...

Well we've heard a lot of definites from AI, haven't we?  Wink What's under discussion here are the connection possibilities and how they relate to Jet Airways. Not everyone will be flying the nonstop on AI, even if it comes to fruition.
International Homo of Mystery
 
28thguy
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:43 am

I can't imagine that Jet Airways would get rights from U.S.-China when they seem to be in such short supply for U.S. carriers. Wishful thinking, it seems to me.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:42 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):
Well we've heard a lot of definites from AI, haven't we?  Wink

....I guess with AI, one never knows, so I guess in a way you are correct...I'm only going by published material.. Wink

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):
What's under discussion here are the connection possibilities and how they relate to Jet Airways. Not everyone will be flying the nonstop on AI, even if it comes to fruition.

.......as you know, in A.net-land, anything and everything is under discussion.. spin ....but on a more serious note, AI's announced BLR-SFO flight is something of importance, especially if it happens.......

I look for this flight to be quite successful....
"Up the Irons!"
 
ORDagent
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:57 am

Haven't they overlooked that they are going up against AA & CO with nonstop service to the Sub Continent? In Y to save a buck a VFR pax will ride the back of a duck. It's the premium cabins that won't.
 
SFO777200LR
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:32 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 4):
Perhaps they should drop plans to route SFO through Shanghai and instead offer it through BRU

Well UA is the only carrier to PVG to/from SFO while there are many options (although not direct) to BRU. And PVG is by far a more popular destination than BRU from the Bay Area, especially with the booming economy and buidling in PVG.
To take flight is like to make love; one must have ecstasy, passion, and a majestic partner.
 
kaitak744
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:39 pm

Current Long Haul fleet (or on order):
10 777-300ER
10 A330-200
10 787-8

AMD-LHR -- A330-200
ATQ-LHR -- A330-200
BOM-LHR -- 777-300ER
DEL-LHR -- 777-300ER
BOM-PVG-SFO -- 777-300ER
(India)-BRU 5x daily -- 777-300ER
BRU-LAX -- 777-300ER
BRU-ORD -- 777-300ER
BRU-JFK -- 777-300ER
BRU-EWR -- 777-300ER
BRU-YYZ -- 777-300ER

So, they will need at least 20 777-300ERs to sustain this operation. I doubt they would use the A330-200s to the U.S., given that they speak of such high market demand.

Remaining A330-200s to be used on routes to S.E.Asia and Middle East?
787-8s to be used on nonstop services to the U.S.?
Order for at least 10 777-300ERs? If not, how will they serve all those cities by 2008?

P.S. given that they will have a hub operation at BRU, in order to provide minimum connection times, they will need at least 5 777-300ER sized gates to be used at once. I looked on Google Earth, and I can't really find where the heavy gates are.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:42 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 17):
BRU-YYZ -- 777-300ER



Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 17):
(India)-BRU 5x daily -- 777-300ER

you are assuming that all services will be operated by the 773s - this is not correct , since , at least to start with , the DEL-BRU-YYZ will be an A330 , I would imagine that some of the other services starting next year India-North America will also be A330 services , at least until they build up loads
 
karan69
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:14 pm

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 5):
erhaps - my understanding is that the rights for PVG-SFO are by no means certain whereas the Belgian government has , I believe , granted 9W unlimited rights

From the ASA

42 weekly services - with not more than 21 to a single destination

5th freedom - "the designated airlines of both parties shall enjoy the fifth freedom traffic rights on the intermediate and/or beyond points specified in Route Schedule for combination services respectively subject to not more than 14 weekly frequencies be operated by any designated airlines of either party to any beyond point"

Route schedule for "combination services" (Cargo + Pax)

Indian carriers are allowed "Any points in India - any 3 intermediate point - any 6 points in China - any 3 beyond points with not more than 2 points in one region"

Chinese carriers are allowed "Any points in China - any 3 intermediate points - any 6 points in India - any 3 beyond points with not more than 2 points in one region"

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 8):
AI is commencing BLR-SFO nonstop very soon..that will beat any connections...



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 14):
I'm only going by published material.. Wink

Ha ha whatever published,  wink 

When AI announced the order Ai was saying BOM-SFO,
Then that changed to DEL-SFO,
Then in the EXIM BANK document submitted they said BLR-FRA-SFO, along with scissor type operations for SFO and LAX from BOM/DEL/MAA via FRA

And now as you said "published material" suggests BLR-SFO.

I have a feeling VJM and his KF will use all their govt and political power and take first claim on this route.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 17):
(India)-BRU 5x daily -- 777-300ER

I doubt you will ever see that happen, if the market even develops they will probably base the 77Ws there---i dont think even the biggest Diamond boom can support daily 77Ws from HYD/AMD/CCU/MAA to BRU even if they are going on to USA.

Besides DEL-BRU-YYZ is already an 330 for the current schedule.

Karan
 
cricket
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:02 pm

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 19):
I have a feeling VJM and his KF will use all their govt and political power and take first claim on this route.

Still hasn't gotten him international rights!

9W will need more planes for the intl opns - because they also need to upgrade their SE Asia planes - those 737's cannot match up to the widebodies used by SQ, MH and TG. Don't be surprised if the large bank of 787's with ILFC and GECAS start getting placed to 9W - expect some 789's also!
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Nimish
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:13 pm

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 15):
Haven't they overlooked that they are going up against AA & CO with nonstop service to the Sub Continent? In Y to save a buck a VFR pax will ride the back of a duck. It's the premium cabins that won't.

Yes and no. AA only offers a ORD-DEL option while CO only offers EWR-BOM/DEL. This way 9W will offer about 25 options on a 1-stop (assuming 5 cities on each end connecting via BRU), and with service and facilities that are superior to AA or CO.

But on the (few) non-stop sectors (like ORD-DEL), I think AA will have the advantage over 9W for passengers wishing exactly that city pair.
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brubiac
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:17 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 17):

P.S. given that they will have a hub operation at BRU, in order to provide minimum connection times, they will need at least 5 777-300ER sized gates to be used at once. I looked on Google Earth, and I can't really find where the heavy gates are.

In BRU, Terminal B, there are 11 stands that can park the 77W.

Next service to the US will begin on 15th February 2008: BLR - BRU - JFK with 77W
BRU a small airport in a big world.
 
Nimish
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:21 pm

Quoting Brubiac (Reply 22):
Next service to the US will begin on 15th February 2008: BLR - BRU - JFK with 77W

Is this confirmed? Not heard the announcement in the Indian media yet (not that they have too much of a clue)...
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cricket
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:36 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 21):
But on the (few) non-stop sectors (like ORD-DEL), I think AA will have the advantage over 9W for passengers wishing exactly that city pair.

See, not the entire traffic of AA's ORD-DEL or CO's EWR-DEL is O&D. A significant amount of people connect onto these flights as well - yet I assume very few 9W passengers will be flying beyond the arrival destination. 9W's advantage is the connectvity they offer in India.

But then again, when flying the US one-stop they will have to convince a lot of people to give up BA Club World! Especially when T5 comes up. I'm sure they can do it, but as long as BOM stays as awful as it is....
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karan69
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:53 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 20):
Still hasn't gotten him international rights!

i know mate thats why i said he will flex his political and bank muscle's to the fullest


Quoting Cricket (Reply 20):
those 737's cannot match up to the widebodies used by SQ, MH and TG.

Agree, but even on the 737s with the IFE they offer superior products to atleast TG and maybe MH in some cases.

Quoting Cricket (Reply 20):
Don't be surprised if the large bank of 787's with ILFC and GECAS start getting placed to 9W - expect some 789's also!

Somehow i dont see that happening, maybe a bit more 332s from the lessors you mentioned [very doubtful though], also they announced an intention for 3-4 more 77Ws as part of their option conversions.

Quoting Cricket (Reply 24):
9W's advantage is the connectvity they offer in India.

 checkmark 

Karan
 
ourboeing
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:56 pm

I thought they were going to start serving IAD also?

Now, how many widebodies do they have in hand at this point?

OURBOEING
 
cricket
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:45 pm

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 25):
Agree, but even on the 737s with the IFE they offer superior products to atleast TG and maybe MH in some cases.

True, I used the IFE on a BLR-DEL flight - and only SQ comes close. Yet, in terms of sheer comfort give me a widebody anyday. I actually miss the A300's used by IC - I know that 9W does a once weekly DEL-AMD positioning on a A330, but since there is no occasion to go to Ahmedabad just yet, I doubt I'll get on it.

Anyway the times of the journeys from India are so late at night, I doubt any IFE viewing gets done by a majority of the passengers. I'll go as far as to say that AI's 313's are slightly more comfy on those sectors - especially if you get one which doesn't fall apart!

The point remains is that 9W does need to upgrade its regional product. 737's are fine for CMB, DAC and KTM but beyond that...

Anyway, why has 9W been using SE Asian crew on their BKK flights?

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 25):
Somehow i dont see that happening, maybe a bit more 332s from the lessors you mentioned [very doubtful though], also they announced an intention for 3-4 more 77Ws as part of their option conversions.

True, they have already picked up two of their A332's (JWD and JWE - both RR powered 330-243 models, 9W's own A332's are 330-203 models powered by GE) from ILFC and I have heard that they might pick up a few more A330-200 slots from ILFC. But the rumours that 9W will increase the 787 slots has been going on for some time - ILFC has slots open for 2010 on 788's. Lets see.
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mk777
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:32 am

Quoting Ourboeing (Reply 26):
thought they were going to start serving IAD also?

I am surprised too, that there is no mention of IAD. I am wondering why the Indian airlines' are overlooking a route which could prove quite a money maker for them. IAD gets no airline from the Indian subcontinent. I think any airline that starts IAD-DEL/BOM non-stop (not in 9W plans) or even one-stop via BRU (very much 9W plans) would definitely be a boon for them.
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aarbee
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:42 am

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 18):



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 18):
Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 17):
BRU-YYZ -- 777-300ER



Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 17):
(India)-BRU 5x daily -- 777-300ER

you are assuming that all services will be operated by the 773s - this is not correct , since , at least to start with , the DEL-BRU-YYZ will be an A330 , I would imagine that some of the other services starting next year India-North America will also be A330 services , at least until they build up loads

Agree, E.g., I think there is traffic from AMD, but not warranting a T7, A330 should suffice.
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jacobin777
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:52 am

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 19):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 8):
AI is commencing BLR-SFO nonstop very soon..that will beat any connections...



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 14):
I'm only going by published material..  Wink

Ha ha whatever published,  Wink

When AI announced the order Ai was saying BOM-SFO,
Then that changed to DEL-SFO,
Then in the EXIM BANK document submitted they said BLR-FRA-SFO, along with scissor type operations for SFO and LAX from BOM/DEL/MAA via FRA

....sure carriers sometimes axe an announced route before they start flying...but now that they are getting the aircrafts possible for this route, its not a stretch of the imagination...

AA was going to fly JFK-NCL but canned it before they started..so from now on when AA states they will start a route (such as the upcoming JFK-STN route) should we say.."sure, whatever, you have a history of announcing a route and then canning it before you commence the route"?

....after their huge Boeing order..nothing is impossible now with AI.. spin ......

..yah, OK also have the attitude of "I'll believe it when I see one land at SFO"..but at least there is the possibility..if it wasn't even announced then we would see no possibility in the near future....

Quoting Nimish (Reply 21):
Yes and no. AA only offers a ORD-DEL option while CO only offers EWR-BOM/DEL. This way 9W will offer about 25 options on a 1-stop (assuming 5 cities on each end connecting via BRU), and with service and facilities that are superior to AA or CO.

.....offering 1-stop USA-India service will mean 9W will be competing with all of the other European carriers such as BA, LH, etc....all which provide superiour service also....
"Up the Irons!"
 
Concorde001
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
the intention is to have flights from 5 cities in India BOM ; DEL ; MAA ; BLR ; AMD to BRU and then continuing on to 5 North American airports : EWR ; YYZ ; LAX ; ORD ; JFK

Wouldn't ATQ-BRU make sense too? 9W already do ATQ-LHR and AI does DEL-ATQ-BHX-YYZ. There are large Punjabi communities in the US and Canada...
 
mk777
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 30):
offering 1-stop USA-India service will mean 9W will be competing with all of the other European carriers such as BA, LH, etc....all which provide superiour service also....

I think 9W will do quite well. I am not a big fan of LH or its FRA hub. And i am sure a lot of Indians would prefer flying on the airline that speaks their language (I know its only one criterion), its kind of like a comfort zone for some pax.

BA, yes offers good service, but again, 9W product caters to the Indian market, also LHR is a nightmare, i'd rather connect at BRU than LHR or FRA, can't say for MUC (as i have not been there) so i don't see 9W facing any problems in filling its planes, in fact i would wish Good Luck to BA, LH, AF (CDG is a nightmare too) on their flights to and from India. I like flying KL but they too will face competition now.
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kaitak744
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:24 am

So, maybe something like this?

AMD-LHR -- A330-200
ATQ-LHR -- A330-200
BOM-LHR -- 777-300ER
DEL-LHR -- 777-300ER
BOM-PVG-SFO -- 777-300ER
(India)-BRU 5x daily -- 3x 777-300ER, 2x A330-200
BRU-LAX -- 777-300ER
BRU-ORD -- A330-200
BRU-JFK -- 777-300ER
BRU-EWR -- 777-300ER
BRU-YYZ -- A330-200

That would still require roughly 15 777-300ERs.
Also, I don't see them basing the 777-300ERs at BRU. Their whole point is to take traffic from the U.S. to India, not from the U.S. to Brussels. The amount of flights from BRU-India should be equal to the amount of flights from BRU-U.S.
 
brubiac
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting Nimish (Reply 23):
Quoting Brubiac (Reply 22):
Next service to the US will begin on 15th February 2008: BLR - BRU - JFK with 77W


Is this confirmed? Not heard the announcement in the Indian media yet (not that they have too much of a clue)...

Not officially, but they have the slots already.

I find it strange that, approx. 6 weeks before starting DEL - BRU - YYZ, you still can't book it on their site.
BRU a small airport in a big world.
 
Concorde001
Posts: 1186
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:53 am

RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 33):
So, maybe something like this?

AMD-LHR -- A330-200
ATQ-LHR -- A330-200
BOM-LHR -- 777-300ER
DEL-LHR -- 777-300ER
BOM-PVG-SFO -- 777-300ER
(India)-BRU 5x daily -- 3x 777-300ER, 2x A330-200
BRU-LAX -- 777-300ER
BRU-ORD -- A330-200
BRU-JFK -- 777-300ER
BRU-EWR -- 777-300ER
BRU-YYZ -- A330-200

BOM-LHR is currently double daily, operated by 2 773s.
 
N62NA
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 30):
offering 1-stop USA-India service will mean 9W will be competing with all of the other European carriers such as BA, LH, etc....all which provide superiour service also....

But 9W has the best F product of all of them - a private, close the door, personal suite. And 9W on EWR-BRU is charging only $10,000 r/t

BA's F class from NYC to LHR is almost $15,000

AF's F class from NYC to CDG is around $13,000
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 32):
BA, yes offers good service, but again, 9W product caters to the Indian market, also LHR is a nightmare

....BA has a huge Indian market following also..... Wink

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 32):
i'd rather connect at BRU than LHR or FRA,

...while you are right about LHR, FRA isn't bad, and if one is flying only with BA, then there isn't the problem of connecting with out of LHR either...in fact, as of right now, Terminal-3 connections at LHR are quite easy also....

Quoting N62NA (Reply 36):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 30):
offering 1-stop USA-India service will mean 9W will be competing with all of the other European carriers such as BA, LH, etc....all which provide superiour service also....

But 9W has the best F product of all of them - a private, close the door, personal suite. And 9W on EWR-BRU is charging only $10,000 r/t

BA's F class from NYC to LHR is almost $15,000

AF's F class from NYC to CDG is around $13,000

Granted 9W has a very nice F-class, but there are also other considerations to take into account..

1)FF loyalty
2)price matching
3)product upgrading by the competition...
"Up the Irons!"
 
mptpa
Posts: 401
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:27 am

Speaking of FF programs and O&D traffic, NW/KLm has a relationship with Jet for intra-asian/Indian flights. What do you think the chances are that they hook up with NW/CO/DL on marketing alliance to provide feeder traffic and reciprocal frequent flier privileges? That would be great for NW as well. But since CO has EWR-DEL flight, it may not be good for them, but again one never knows.
 
Spark
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:30 am

The connections between SFO and India have always perplexed me, because it seems that airlines have essentially ceded that traffic to SQ, which is a little bit like going SF to Boston by way of Miami (it is way out of the way).
I've looked at this and played armchair CEO for other airlines, and realized what gives SQ the advantage.
1st: The Indians I've talked to, don't trust, or like, Air India. SQ offers a good product. I don't know much about Jet, but if they are anything like AI, it will be a hard sell (regardless of where you connect).
2nd: You aren't just trying to connect to one city, and domestic service in India is suspect. This is where SQ has an advantage over the other airlines in East Asia.
SQ flies from Singapore to almost every major city in India, so no matter what part of India I would be going to, I can get there. No other airline offers that type of connections (even AI). Is there enough demand for the India-BRU, or India-PVG routes to sustain them.
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2387
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:36 am

Quoting Spark (Reply 39):
I don't know much about Jet, but if they are anything like AI, it will be a hard sell (regardless of where you connect).

You've not been reading the threads about 9W's service...you wouldn't be saying this otherwise... wink 

Quoting Spark (Reply 39):
and domestic service in India is suspect

Again, you've not been upto date with news on Indian aviation....

Quoting Spark (Reply 39):
Is there enough demand for the India-BRU

Don't really know, but there will be enough to fill up some seats.....

Quoting Spark (Reply 39):
or India-PVG routes to sustain them.

I believe there is a serious shortage of capacity between BOM/DEL and PVG....
 
JRDC930
Posts: 882
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:36 am

RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:50 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 30):
offering 1-stop USA-India service will mean 9W will be competing with all of the other European carriers such as BA, LH, etc....all which provide superiour service also....

9W's service seems to be targeted at competing with the U.S. carriers specifically, it is these carriers that will suffer from 9W's vastly superior service in Business class and maybe even in Y if they can market the route well in the U.S. Yes the European carriers will provide good competition in the service area, but when compared to CO, as decent as their service is, and AA's notoriously poor customer and on board service, there is no comparison; 9W wins hands down, IMHO.

P.S. I specifically loved this comment, which i think rings very true... Big grin

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
Goyal said American passenger-airlines "dump people" from one point to another. But "With us, you get a hot meal within a half-hour of takeoff. It's a three-course meal in every section of the airplane -- even in coach," he said.
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:41 am

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 41):
9W's service seems to be targeted at competing with the U.S. carriers specifically, it is these carriers that will suffer from 9W's vastly superior service in Business class and maybe even in Y if they can market the route well in the U.S.



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 41):
AA's notoriously poor customer and on board service, there is no comparison; 9W wins hands down, IMHO.

...but its still a "one-stop" deal and unless fares are cheaper to much cheaper, they will not give up their nonstop service for a one-stop service..regardless of "vastly superior service".....

..add in the FF-base, upgrades, lounges, etc...its going to be difficult to take on the U.S. carriers which fly ORD/EWR-DEL, etc. nonstop..

Now if its 9W against CO on DEL-EWR then I could say its a possibility....but not DEL-BRU-EWR versus DEL-EWR.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
JRDC930
Posts: 882
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:36 am

RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:30 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 42):
but not DEL-BRU-EWR versus DEL-EWR.....

Good point, non-stops are tough to beat, and ill be honest; I'm not too familiar with what 9W plans to be charging on the routes, however i still think 9W still has a good chance to make money on some of the other planned routes and maybe as i said with the U.S. carriers at their hubs, though i have to agree...it ll be tough to crack and will depend in my opinion on a good marketing campaign.
U.S. Legacy carriers,STILL leaders in lowering industry standards...
 
Nimish
Posts: 2891
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:22 pm

Quoting Spark (Reply 39):
The connections between SFO and India have always perplexed me, because it seems that airlines have essentially ceded that traffic to SQ, which is a little bit like going SFO to Boston by way of Miami (it is way out of the way).
I've looked at this and played armchair CEO for other airlines, and realized what gives SQ the advantage.

The reasons that SQ does well on the India SFO route are:

1. Impeccable quality, Indian food, Great IFE, they hold up SQ16 to wait for the Indian connections etc.
2. Easy availability of seats most times of the year (contrast with LH, where it's always tough to get a seat on LH454/455).
3. Hardly any lost bags (contrast with BA and LHR - which is a perpetual nightmare)
4. With AF/KL/DL - the problem is that the USA-India sector timings from SFO are such that you can't catch the flight on the same day
5. With AA/CO non-stops to India - the arrival into India is timed in such a way that there's no convenient connection for the next many hours.
6. Ability to take a stop over at SIN or HKG or SEL - all 3 of which give a 3-4 day transit visa to Indian nationals with a valid US visa.
7. Tickets are generally cheaper than the European airlines, and there's no cancellation/change fee (contrast to LH's 25% cancellation charge!!)
Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
 
cricket
Posts: 2074
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:28 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 44):
3. Hardly any lost bags (contrast with BA and LHR - which is a perpetual nightmare)

Not quite BA's fault - rather BAA's but strange that these problems never affect VS - My father for example has switched loyalties completely to Branson, and he was a high-mileage OneWorld member.

Quoting Nimish (Reply 44):
5. With AA/CO non-stops to India - the arrival into India is timed in such a way that there's no convenient connection for the next many hours.

AA and CO have a lot of Destination traffic into DEL, funneling people through ORD and EWR to DEL.

End of the day, 9W's scissor hub @ BRU is a fantastic idea - in theory - implementing it is going to be an operational masterpiece. While I don't doubt 9W's ability to pull it off, I'm sure there will more than its fair share of teething troubles. I wonder how long a bank 9W keeps at BRU. What if the DEL or AMD departure is delayed, will they hold back the other planes that move to EWR and SFO because of that?
A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
 
ourboeing
Posts: 328
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:52 pm

RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 28):
I am surprised too, that there is no mention of IAD. I am wondering why the Indian airlines' are overlooking a route which could prove quite a money maker for them. IAD gets no airline from the Indian subcontinent. I think any airline that starts IAD-DEL/BOM non-stop (not in 9W plans) or even one-stop via BRU (very much 9W plans) would definitely be a boon for them.

I completely agree. 9W is flying the routes that big boys like AA and CO serve and that too non-stop. If I were to make a choice of flying ORD/EWR to DEL, I would definitely fly non-stops.

Who is creating the routes for 9W again?  Smile

OURBOEING
 
Nimish
Posts: 2891
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:02 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 45):
What if the DEL or AMD departure is delayed, will they hold back the other planes that move to EWR and SFO because of that?

And this is especially relevant in the Indian winter when DEL becomes a nightmare. And the US east coast/mid-west weather systems are anyway very unreliable.

SQ does for instance often hold back SQ16 to SFO pending arrival of passengers from a delayed India flight. But to hold back an entire bank of flights at BRU might be more of a hassle than it's worth. I guess the passengers left behind might reach their destinations with SN/BA/LH/AF to FRA/LHR/CDG/AMS, and then any available flight from there on. Similarly on the return bank coming from North America to India.
Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
 
mk777
Posts: 888
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting Ourboeing (Reply 46):
Quoting Mk777 (Reply 28):
I am surprised too, that there is no mention of IAD. I am wondering why the Indian airlines' are overlooking a route which could prove quite a money maker for them. IAD gets no airline from the Indian subcontinent. I think any airline that starts IAD-DEL/BOM non-stop (not in 9W plans) or even one-stop via BRU (very much 9W plans) would definitely be a boon for them.

I completely agree. 9W is flying the routes that big boys like AA and CO serve and that too non-stop. If I were to make a choice of flying ORD/EWR to DEL, I would definitely fly non-stops.

Who is creating the routes for 9W again? Smile

OURBOEING

i think AI should steal this route from 9W, just like they are trying to steal the BOM-JFK non-stop route. They could easily deploy their 772LR's on this route before serving any other US destination.  Smile
come fly with me
 
CO787EWR
Posts: 152
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RE: Jet To Start SFO,LAX,ORD, And JFK In 2008

Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:38 am

I believe that the US majors wont have to worry that much they are flying non-stop which J customers perfer and those are the money makers.