N62NA
Topic Author
Posts: 4006
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

Argentina ATC Without Radar March - July?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:02 pm

I was reading this article about Congonhas in Sao Paulo from today's Miami Herald:

http://www.miamiherald.com/884/story/179007.html

Nothing too new in there... until the 2nd and 3rd to the end paragraphs:


The problem is regional, as the same mix of rising air traffic and aging infrastructure has taxed air systems in neighboring Argentina, said former Argentine pilot Enrique Pineyro, who has been a leading critic of his country's air traffic system.

Argentine flight controllers had been working without radar control since March 1, when lightning destroyed the country's only certified radar. Although government officials say the radar was repaired and has been operating since July 9, it has since failed at least three times, Pineyro said.


Aren't there certain standards that need to be met before USA airlines (and I presume European too) are permitted by their "home" authorities to fly to a certain location?
 
bullpitt
Posts: 757
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 7:09 am

RE: Argentina ATC Without Radar March - July?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:00 am

I heard the Spanish Army was going to send one over, does anyone know if they actually did?
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
cloudyapple
Posts: 1261
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Argentina ATC Without Radar March - July?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:55 am

Radar is not a necessity for ATC. Not too long ago everyone was controlling procedurally - ie HF position reporting and calculating times and distances. Just like we do now everyday for all transatlantic and transpacific flights.

Nowadays we have wonderful radars. But they do go out of service from time to time so procedural control should be the back up in the case. The airspace will be run at reduced capacity but at least some service can be maintained. There should be no need to shut the airspace.
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
YWG
Posts: 1055
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2001 11:29 am

RE: Argentina ATC Without Radar March - July?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:24 am

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 2):
HF position reporting and calculating times and distances

That's a lot of work for congested airspace like Sao Paulo. Not to mention a whole new level of "pain in the ass" for the controllers who will have to dust off their stop watches.
Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: Argentina ATC Without Radar March - July?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:13 am

Quoting Bullpitt (Reply 1):
I heard the Spanish Army was going to send one over, does anyone know if they actually did?

Not one, but two. They are leased until the radars ordered to state-owned company INVAP are ready. One of them is installed and the other one is in the process - also EZE's radar has been fixed. The first spanish radar went into OPS last week, so now, control is normal - but due to a judicial restraint order, take offs and landings are limited with a 10 minute interval between each.

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 2):
Radar is not a necessity for ATC. Not too long ago everyone was controlling procedurally - ie HF position reporting and calculating times and distances.

 checkmark  This is still actually done in our country, far away from the busiest terminals (Baires -AEP/EZE- and COR).

Quoting YWG (Reply 3):
That's a lot of work for congested airspace like Sao Paulo. Not to mention a whole new level of "pain in the ass" for the controllers who will have to dust off their stop watches.

Exactly - this causes major delays in airspaces as "small" as EZE. Which usually gets around 12 million people a year.

Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
Aren't there certain standards that need to be met before USA airlines (and I presume European too) are permitted by their "home" authorities to fly to a certain location?

No. Brazil and Argentina are CAT 1 countries.

Gastón - The MD11junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: Argentina ATC Without Radar March - July?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:47 am

This has been widely posted in Chile due all the delays to and from the always appealing Buenos Aires.

Actually, a month ago the lack of radar (surface radar I think) almost made one Lan Chile 767 collide another 767 (AM). The pilot got to see the other aircraft in the runway and could fully brake the airport in time.

That situation was very bad, for what I've heard. Perhaps our LAN insider can give us further details about this.

Regards )(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: Argentina ATC Without Radar March - July?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:18 pm

Quoting Arcano (Reply 5):
Actually, a month ago the lack of radar (surface radar I think) almost made one Lan Chile 767 collide another 767 (AM).

It was an LA A340 (IIRC, it was CC-CQC - RJ_Delta might need to back me up on this one) with an AM 767. And the fault was reportedly admitted by the AM crew who didn't obey the hold short instructions. Ground issues have NOTHING to do with radar malfunctions.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 5):
That situation was very bad, for what I've heard.

Then you're deaf. (yes, it's a freaking joke)
The situation is only worsened by the media talking about something they don't know. We've been flying like this for years, nothing's changed - only the media repercusion.

2 radars are working now, and everything seems safe. A third is coming up sometime August.

EDIT: My 2000th post will not go unobserved

Gastón - The MD11junkie

[Edited 2007-07-24 05:22:16]
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: Argentina ATC Without Radar March - July?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:47 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 6):
The situation is only worsened by the media talking about something they don't know

Hi, It surely is, thanks for clearing things up.

Saludos,
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
akizidy214
Posts: 258
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:10 am

RE: Argentina ATC Without Radar March - July?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:10 pm

My rant for the evening.......Still mad I got stuck in EZE 7/9/07 for lack of deicing equipment! Had to waste a day of vacation.
DCA
 
RJ_Delta
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2000 4:17 am

RE: Argentina ATC Without Radar March - July?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:26 pm

Also the principal problems are in Buenos Aires, BAIRES Control, not all of the country, as MD11junkie said. As far as I know, Cordoba was works normal and Mendoza radar operates normal too, confirmed by AR and LA pilots. However for precaution all traffic are separate with a 10 minutes of interval.

According of the situation the Santiago Radar and Santiago Radar Norte (Antofagasta) send all traffic to Argentina with 10 minutes of separation, specially if the traffic are inbound to BAIRES area.The traffics inbound to Brazil or Europe from Chile operates normally without restriction. In some case the Santiago Radar provides information to the traffic or help to Mendoza.
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: Argentina ATC Without Radar March - July?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:18 pm

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 8):
My rant for the evening.......Still mad I got stuck in EZE 7/9/07 for lack of deicing equipment! Had to waste a day of vacation.

So, we need to have deicing equipment for a snow storm that occurs once every 89 years? Pffft, that's ridiculous. Give me a break.  Yeah sure
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:09 am

RE: Argentina ATC Without Radar March - July?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:34 pm

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 8):
My rant for the evening.......Still mad I got stuck in EZE 7/9/07 for lack of deicing equipment! Had to waste a day of vacation.

As Gaston mentions, it would not be logical to have that kind of equipment for something that happens once evry century. It's unfortunate to be stuck in an airport, but on that particular day it was nobody's fault, except for global warning  Wink In fact, you should be greatful, you witnessed a historic moment for this city Big grin

What is really bad is being stuck at AEP every day because of lack of .... well, I don't know why, it seems to be out of control, but the last 2 days have been pretty chaotic (especially since these days are also the first days of the winter vacation season!)

regards  Smile
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
 
User avatar
na747
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:41 pm

RE: Argentina ATC Without Radar March - July?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:47 pm

I'm glad to see te radar situation back to normal.
For those months the AA flts arrived late every single morning, causing hundreds of paxs to misconnect.
The first item in the morning at work was "let's see how late the flts are coming in and how many misconnects".
 
LVTMB
Posts: 293
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:18 am

RE: Argentina ATC Without Radar March - July?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:05 am

Quoting Arcano (Reply 5):
Actually, a month ago the lack of radar (surface radar I think) almost made one Lan Chile 767 collide another 767 (AM). The pilot got to see the other aircraft in the runway and could fully brake the airport in time.

Sounds like as runway incursion, absolutely unrelated to the topic being discussed.

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 8):
My rant for the evening.......Still mad I got stuck in EZE 7/9/07 for lack of deicing equipment! Had to waste a day of vacation.

Sounds as awfully bad luck. What are the odds?

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 4):
Not one, but two.

I am curious here. My understanding is that the radar that was fried by lightning back in March left the Baires Terminal area without radar coverage. Is that where the leased radar went to? And where is the other one going to?

MB
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: Argentina ATC Without Radar March - July?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting LVTMB (Reply 13):
I am curious here. My understanding is that the radar that was fried by lightning back in March left the Baires Terminal area without radar coverage. Is that where the leased radar went to? And where is the other one going to?

MB, it was fried but it was not 'unrepairable'. It was repaired and put back into service, though it was considered only an aid. The first Spanish radar is installed in Morón (no jokes from you, english speaking people  Wink ) Air Base, and the second one is said to be going to Quilmes.

As soon as the other radars come into service, the Air Force will test the accuracy of the original Baires Terminal radar. So far, it's only a "secondary" radar.

Now, the deal remains in revoking the sentence dictated by a judge issuing a 10 minutes clearance between planes.

Gastón - The MD11junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: aaflyer777, alasizon, B757Forever, BreninTW, ChristopherS, coolian2, DeltaB717, elron, Google [Bot], IndianicWorld, jm079, kabq737, L1011, Majestic-12 [Bot], Mexicana757, skedguy, SyeaphanR, trex8, United1, Yahoo [Bot] and 238 guests