phxmkeflyer
Posts: 187
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5th Freedom Rights

Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:43 pm

I have wondered about this for some time and couldn't find much in a search. I would like to know if any U.S. carriers have 5th Freedom rights? Is UA and NW in Tokyo considered 5th freedom? I also remember TWA used to fly quite a bit out of CDG to other European/Mediterranean cities, were those 5th freedom? Also, are there any countries out there which MAY allow for a U.S. based carrier to setup a hub in one of its cities?

Thanks for your info!
 
centrair
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RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:59 pm

Quoting Phxmkeflyer (Thread starter):
UA and NW in Tokyo considered 5th freedom?

Yes. NW has 5th freedom rights from any point in Japan to another point beyond. They also have 5th freedom rights out of AMS but I am not sure of the conditions. Currently SEA-AMS-BOM is a 5th freedom through AMS. UA has 5th freedom rights from Japan as well as I think from Hong Kong (Is HKG-SGN 5th freedom?).

NW also has I think a rare right where they can fly NRT-NGO-SPN but the NRT-NGO is not a domestic route and NRT originating pax cannot get off at NGO. But pax who transfer to the flight from an international flight can get off at NGO. NGO-NRT is esentially an international flight connecting to the NW network at NRT hub. NGO-SPN is 5th freedom but what is NGO-NRT? Pax that get on at NGO and are going to NRT MUST transfer to an international flight. Example: I am flying to MSP this winter via NRT. I will fly NW metal all the way NGO-NRT-MSP: All international flights with NW logos.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
Gemuser
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RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:20 pm

Quoting Phxmkeflyer (Thread starter):
I would like to know if any U.S. carriers have 5th Freedom rights?

Any US carrier who is designated by the US government has fifth freedom rights from Australia to some points in Asia. Points definately included are SIN, JKT, HKG & Japan, there could be more. No airline currently uses these rights.

Gemuser
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centrair
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RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:52 pm

Does DL have rights for carrying pax between Dakar and the US on their JNB flight or is this just a 2nd freedom (tech) thing.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
gemini573
Posts: 143
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:53 am

RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:01 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 1):
UA has 5th freedom rights from Japan as well as I think from Hong Kong (Is HKG-SGN 5th freedom?).

Yes, UA has 5th freedom out of HKG; SGN and SIN.
 
ehho
Posts: 769
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RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:49 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 1):
NGO-SPN is 5th freedom but what is NGO-NRT?

It's called eighth freedom, or consecutive cabotage, and by your description NW does not have that right in Japan, so all passengers on that domsestic leg have to be international passengers, either directly on that flight, or connecting.

Here's the description from the Freedoms of the Air Annex to the Chicago Convention:

Quote:
Eighth Freedom of The Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, of transporting cabotage traffic between two points in the territory of the granting State on a service which originates or terminates in the home country of the foreign carrier or (in connection with the so-called Seventh Freedom of the Air) outside the territory of the granting State
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
HowSwedeitis
Posts: 471
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RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:02 pm

(Forgive my ignorance) What is 5th freedom?
Heja Sverige!!
 
COSPN
Posts: 1535
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:03 pm

Not Much 5th Freedom at CO.... ROR-MNL is the only one I can think of; Island Hopper FSM and RMI (Micronesia and Republic of Marshal islands) KWA-MAJ "Domestic" Runs
 
PanHAM
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RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:05 pm

PA and TW enjoyed 5th freedom rights in Europe and onwards to Asia. Most of these rights are dormant,not sure if they could be taken up again by DL and UA who inherited those rights. However, today's alliances have changed the needs to exercise such 5th freedom rights.

FX and UPS enjoy and do exercise 5th freedom rights on many routes, just to mention the big freight carriers..

.
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HowSwedeitis
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:59 am

RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:48 pm

Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 6):
(Forgive my ignorance) What is 5th freedom?

http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/Data/freedoms.htm

I have my answer now! Never mind the previous post!  embarrassed 
Heja Sverige!!
 
vv701
Posts: 5773
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:21 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
PA and TW enjoyed 5th freedom rights in Europe and onwards to Asia. Most of these rights are dormant,not sure if they could be taken up again by DL and UA who inherited those rights.

 checkmark 
Certainly PA used to operate from LHR to a number of European (mainly German) destinations. To operate these fifth freedom services that I believe were granted under Bermuda 1 and confirmed in Bermuda 2 they maintained a fleet of 727s and, in the mid 80s, a mixed fleet of 727s and 737s in Europe:

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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.
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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.


These rights (that also included PIK-OSL (or FBU as it then was) were passed to UA who brought their own fleet of 727s to Europe:

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Steven Freeman


UA subsequently withdrew from these routes. However as their 5th freedom rights were confirmed under Bermuda 2, the bilateral agreement between the UK and USA that remains in force until the end of March next year, I assume that UA still has these rights (unlwess they were part of the package they sold to DL).
 
PanHAM
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RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:56 pm

The traffic to and from Berlin was never 5th freedeom because the allied powers had the sovereignty over Berlin.

Bermuda I and II is OK,I am not sure but believe that the olpen skies agreement still has the 5th freedom rights included.
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ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:30 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
am not sure but believe that the olpen skies agreement still has the 5th freedom rights included.

The US Open Skies model has unlimited intermediate and beyond 5ths for both parties. They exist in other liberal agreements - for example US-Australia and some restricted agreements - for example US-Japan.
 
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ADent
Posts: 924
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RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:18 am

Right, but the EU wanted to treat the whole EU as a single entity. Thus changing UAs dormant fifth freedom from LHR to Berlin into 8th freedom. Like when Germany reunited it changed a simple international flight from UK to US controlled sector in Berlin into a 5th freedom UK to DDR flight.

Not sure if the EU got all of what they wanted though - they were complaining about the lack of 8th freedom in the US.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18971
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RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 1):
Currently SEA-AMS-BOM is a 5th freedom through AMS.

Just a minor clarification. Only AMS-BOM is 5th freedom for NW. SEA-AMS and SEA-BOM are 3rd/4th freedom.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 1):
NGO-SPN is 5th freedom but what is NGO-NRT? Pax that get on at NGO and are going to NRT MUST transfer to an international flight.

Sorry, that's not correct. NGO-SPN for CO is 3rd/4th freedom since SPN is a US Territory. The entire route including any online connections in Japan is 3rd/4th freedom. It's much like QF who operate SYD-LAX-JFK. They can't carry local domestic passengers on the LAX-JFK-LAX sectors but they can carry their own connecting passengers. e.g. A passenger on a QF flight MEL-LAX can connect at LAX to the LAX-JFK sector of the SYD-LAX-JFK flight.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:12 am

DL has full traffic rights on all sectors of its ATL-DKR-JNB flight. As such, DKR-JNB is considered 5th freedom.

US airlines have a number of 5th freedom authorities beyond or within Europe but they do not exercise them. One of the big hangups the EU airlines have about EU-US Open Skies is that the US carriers have rights within and beyond Europe that the EU carriers do not have in reciprocity from/within the US. The US carriers point out that they do not exercise those rights so they aren't really meaningful.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:34 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
PA and TW enjoyed 5th freedom rights in Europe and onwards to Asia. Most of these rights are dormant,not sure if they could be taken up again by DL and UA who inherited those rights. However, today's alliances have changed the needs to exercise such 5th freedom rights.

Pan Am used to fly JFK-FRA-KHI also, I used to fly Pan Am back in the 1970's and 80's. Of course, Pan Am Flight 73 is in the history books as something dubious....
"Up the Irons!"
 
cslusarc
Posts: 553
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:28 pm

Does anyone know which airlines is the largest "5th Freedom" operatior, or which airline that offers the most "5th Freedom" ASMs?
--cslusarc from YWG
 
Gemuser
Posts: 4301
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:43 pm

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 17):
Does anyone know which airlines is the largest "5th Freedom" operatior, or which airline that offers the most "5th Freedom" ASMs?

No. But if you want to look, QF out of SIN would be a good place to start, with two B744s to LHR and one to FRA every night it must rank fairly high these days. Of course your problem would be to tell how many of those ASM are used by SIN orginating pax as opposed to Oz orginating.

Gemuser
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L1011Lover
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RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:49 pm

I know that both Delta and United inherited their Europe and beyond 5th freedom rights from Pan Am when they took over their respective former Pan Am routes (UA mainly LHR rights, while DL took over the rest of the European network with the FRA hub). DL had 5th freedom rights from FRA to DEL and BOM (inherited from PA) and later CDG to BOM.

Does anyone know if American also inherited TWA´s 5th freedom rights? TWA´s 5th freedom rights were dormant in their last few years of operation and when AA took them over, however I´m sure they still had them.

Best regards

L1011Lover
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
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RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:51 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):
Of course, Pan Am Flight 73 is in the history books as something dubious....

You refer to the september 1986 hijacking attack?
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:16 am

RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:56 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):
Of course, Pan Am Flight 73 is in the history books as something dubious....

You refer to the september 1986 hijacking attack?
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8533
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RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:40 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 13):
Germany reunited it changed a simple international flight from UK to US controlled sector in Berlin into a 5th freedom UK to DDR fligh

whn Germany reunited, the "DDR" did not exist any more. SXF/FRA was domestic cabotage from that date on, no 5th freedom..TXL/FRA as well, since the sovereignty over Berlin transferred to the Federal Republic of Germany with the ratification of the 4+2 treaty.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):

Pan Am used to fly JFK-FRA-KHI also, I used to fly Pan Am back in the 1970's and 8



Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 19):
with the FRA hub). DL had 5th freedom rights from FRA to DEL and BOM (inherited from PA) and later C

They both could fly actually anywhere they wanted. We had IST BEY KHI and other destinations served from FRA over the years.
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ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:50 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
They both could fly actually anywhere they wanted

Sorry that isn't correct. They could fly anywhere the US government had secured route rights for. FRA-IST/BEY/KHI etc were only allowed as the USG had secured these rights for it's airlines.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8533
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:14 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 23):
Sorry that isn't correct. They could fly anywhere the US government had secured route rights for. FRA-IST/BEY/KHI etc were only allowed as the USG had secured these rights for it's airlines

you will certainly agree with me that, if PA wanted to fly to a destination for which the US Government had not yet secured traffic rights, PA had enough clout in Washington to persuade the Government to secure such traffic rights?
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L1011Lover
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:16 am

RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:26 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
They both could fly actually anywhere they wanted. We had IST BEY KHI and other destinations served from FRA over the years.

I never said they didn´t have traffic rights from FRA to BEY and KHI... etc. however DL never used PA´s traffic rights from FRA to BEY and KHI, as they never served these destinations.

I pointed out that they had (or better to say have) traffic rights from FRA to BOM and DEL because they actually served the routes. They also served IST, that´s correct!

Other non-US routes DL served from FRA included WAW, VIE/OTP, BUD, PRG, LED, SVO, ATH, LGW (not quite sure if FRA-LGW came through the PA aquisition or was DL´s own route authority?)

Does anybody know about AA and TWA´s 5th freedom rights?
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:39 pm

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 20):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):
Of course, Pan Am Flight 73 is in the history books as something dubious....

You refer to the september 1986 hijacking attack?

..unfortunately yes..... Sad

...that being said, its nice to see LH starting KHI services again and BA at least starting cargo services to KHI ...hopefully we'll see more European carriers come back to Pakistan (BA has increased frequency to ISB)

I've flown a few European carriers to Pakistan over the years... yes 

BA
LH
AF
KL
LX (old Swiss Air)
"Up the Irons!"
 
PlaneGuy27
Posts: 289
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:38 am

RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:57 pm

Other notables:

EK JFK-HAM-DXB
MH KUL-JNB-CPT-EZE
AC YYZ-SCL-EZE
LH FRA-GRU-EZE
9W DEL-BRU-YYZ
9W BOM-BRU-EWR
A whole bunch on AI between US points - LHR/FRA/CDG and India

When a route can't carry local traffic between two points, its more commonly refered to as a blind sector

i.e. IAD-FCO-ADD on ET - ET can't sell IAD-FCO (although rumored on here to be changing - maybe it already did)
 
adools
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:16 am

RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:07 am

Another interesting one is:

LX: ZRH-GRU-SCL

I came back on this flight 3 days ago, and the SCL-GRU was full of Brazilians returning from skiing in the Andes and the GRU-ZRH was almost empty!

adools.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18971
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RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:33 am

Quoting PlaneGuy27 (Reply 27):
AC YYZ-SCL-EZE

And AC YVR-HNL-SYD with 5th freedom rights HNL-SYD, until they begin nonstop YVR-SYD later this year.

And one recent one (since June), QR DOH-GVA-EWR with 5th freedom rights GVA-EWR.
 
sllevin
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RE: 5th Freedom Rights

Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 17):
Does anyone know which airlines is the largest "5th Freedom" operatior, or which airline that offers the most "5th Freedom" ASMs?

Almost certainly has to be either UA or NW ex-NRT; whichever is offering the most seats inter-asia.

Steve

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