gh123
Posts: 645
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:09 pm

Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:19 pm

The NTSB will deliver their final verdict and report today at 0930 EST.

Click on the below link for a windows media live broadcast at the above time.

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/boardmeeting.htm#
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
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RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:27 pm

I can tell you right now the boards findings....
* Crew Rest
* Took off on the wrong runway
* Failure to confirm runway heading before departure
* Impact with terain

A very sad accident to think everyone lived through the impact, but died in the fire
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
gh123
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RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:29 pm

One of the victim family's attorney is trying to point the blame at Bombardier, due to the fact that they believe that fuel got into the cabin.
 
flyinryan99
Posts: 1431
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RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:34 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):

I also heard reports the crew didn't get the NOTAMs on the taxiway changes...maybe a more streamlined way of getting NOTAMs to pilots.
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 2):
One of the victim family's attorney is trying to point the blame at Bombardier, due to the fact that they believe that fuel got into the cabin.

of course!! They probably have deep pockets...never sue anyone at fault, sue the deepest pockets.....do crew memebers ever get sued??? NOPE.
 
RobertS975
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RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:24 am

Lots of talk about the lack of sterile cockpit routine at the moment, as well as confirmation bias
 
71Zulu
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RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
I can tell you right now the boards findings....
* Crew Rest...

Unless they could not sleep at the hotel the night before, I don't see crew rest being an issue.

The crew both jumpseated in on Saturday, the day before the accident.

F/O arrived LEX at 02:00am
Capt arrived LEX at 03:30pm

The scheduled fight was 06:10am Sunday morning, so plenty of off-duty time.
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SWA TPA
Posts: 1454
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RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:26 am

Whatever happened to the F/O? Wasnt he the only one that survived the crash?

SWA TPA
I believe I can fly.....
 
AlexPorter
Posts: 1655
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RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:39 am

Quoting SWA TPA (Reply 9):
Whatever happened to the F/O?

Yeah, but at the very minimum he doesn't remember the accident and lost one or both of his legs. He might also have brain damage - I can't remember for sure if he does or not.
Last Flight: SCX701 MSP-PHX B738 8Jan2008
 
NIKV69
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RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:37 am

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 2):
One of the victim family's attorney is trying to point the blame at Bombardier, due to the fact that they believe that fuel got into the cabin.

Reaching way too far.

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 6):
Lots of talk about the lack of sterile cockpit routine at the moment, as well as confirmation bias

 checkmark 

FAA has the regulation for a reason. All that chatter diverts your attention away from your duties. Like lining up on the right runway maybe?
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
MDorBust
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RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 7):
Unless they could not sleep at the hotel the night before, I don't see crew rest being an issue.

ATC rest I think.

IIRC the ATC on duty was fatigued.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
WN230
Posts: 314
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RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:59 am

Quoting Gh123 (Reply 4):
They said in accidemnt summary that the so called CL-600 involved was actually N431FE

No, the accident report said that N431CA was the plane that crashed. And to prove myself, here is the sentence where that came from . . .

" On August 27, 2006, about 0606:35 eastern daylight time, Comair flight 5191, a Bombardier CL-600-2B19, N431CA, crashed during takeoff from Blue Grass Airport, Lexington, Kentucky. "


WN230 ******quote courtesy of ntsb.gov******
Judas Priest North American tour in '08 . . . cannot wait!!!
 
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falstaff
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RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:20 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Crew Rest

Also an issue with many railroad accidents in the USA. Rail crews work odd schedules like aircrews and few people actually make light of that.

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 7):
Unless they could not sleep at the hotel the night before, I don't see crew rest being an issue.

Time between shifts can be a big issue. Even if they slept the allotted hours who is to say if that was really enough. Sleep deprivation is a huge problem in many industries.

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 9):
Yeah, but at the very minimum he doesn't remember the accident and lost one or both of his legs. He might also have brain damage - I can't remember for sure if he does or not.

No matter what I am sure he isn't talking much about what happened. I am sure he is represented by an attorney and that lawyer's advice is took keep your mouth shut!

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 5):
...never sue anyone at fault, sue the deepest pockets

Same in an auto accident.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
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RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:20 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
* Crew Rest

A week after the crash, OH stated the crew flew in on Friday night with +30 hrs layover. The Capt's wife drove down from N. Ky with the kids and spent the day with him.

Someone posted they jumpseated in, that's the first I heard.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
FAA has the regulation for a reason. All that chatter diverts your attention away from your duties. Like lining up on the right runway maybe?

Ironically, sterile cockpit was established from an Eastern Airlines crash in the 70's when the crew was discussing a baseball game (I think the World Series) the night before.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 11):
IIRC the ATC on duty was fatigued.

He was at a picnic the day before only napping for 2 hrs.
 
Milesdependent
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RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:01 pm

Has the content of the CVR been released?
 
EMBQA
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RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:02 pm

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 13):
Also an issue with many railroad accidents in the USA.

I have a friend that works for CSX and they work some wacky hours......How it stays legal I don't know.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
rdhamr309
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:58 am

RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:34 pm

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 13):

Im a locomotive engineer for 19 yrs and we are regulated under very very strict guidlines from Canada of course and you would think twice of running a train these days with our mandates that must be met and control 21,0000 tons at the same time.We own a lot of rail in the states under the same guidlines so yes we are very very carefull what we do.  cheerful  just a thought
rdhamr309
 
BlueSkys
Posts: 286
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RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:08 pm

I would really like to see what the report looks like.
 
n844aa
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:38 am

RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:23 pm

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 14):
Ironically, sterile cockpit was established from an Eastern Airlines crash in the 70's when the crew was discussing a baseball game (I think the World Series) the night before.

Is that right? I thought the sterile cockpit was mandated below 10,000' after the DL 727 crash at DFW, when the crew failed to set the flaps after spending most of the checklist talking about the flight attendants' dating habits.

As far as I can recall, the EA 401 crew spent most of the terminal descent obsessing over the status of the faulty lightbulb. But I could very, very easily be wrong, and if so, I'd appreciate a correction!
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
UAXDXer
Posts: 700
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RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:10 pm

Reading the CVR transcript it seems they had no idea anything was wrong until just after Vr. Just goes to show how quick things can go bad.
It takes a bug to hit a windsheild but it takes guts to stick
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:09 pm

Quote:
Ironically, sterile cockpit was established from an Eastern Airlines crash in the 70's when the crew was discussing a baseball game (I think the World Series) the night before.

The crash you speak of was an Eastern DC-9 that crashed on approach to CLT on September 11, 1974:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19740911-1

On a side note, comedian Steven Colbert of Comedy Central's "The Colbert Report" lost both of his parents in that crash.

According to "Aviation Disasters" by David Gero,

Quote:
As transcribed by the cockpit voice recorder, the two men covered a variety of topics, from politics to used motor cars, with both expressing strong views and mild aggravation regarding these subjects. In the process they may have relaxed their instrument scan and relied more heavily on visual cues to carry out the approach. And when the DC-9 entered the fog, there would not have been enough time for the to switch back to instrument procedures.

The World Series would have been later in the month.

As far as "blame" goes, it bothers me to think that blame must be affixed to someone or something, as if that will give the victims' families solace. Not that anyone at airlines.net would do so, but too many people in this world want things to be black and white - something bad happened, so it HAS to be someone's fault. And all too often, there are those that prey on the grieving by promising to get them "justice" before all the facts are in.

Let us also remember that aviation accidents in this era are incredibly complex - the 1982 Air Florida crash in Washington DC was the results of no less than 13 separate factors that occured, in sequence, resulting in that terrible crash. Simple "accidents" are almost non-existent anymore.

The anger is justified. The rush to judgement is not. The NTSB has taken its time in examining all the factors involved in this horrible accident and will render its findings at the appropriate time. I have faith the findings will be impartial and well-examined and that recommendations will be made to ensure this will not happen again.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
contrails
Posts: 1312
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2000 11:53 pm

RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:15 pm

We'll never know what was going through their minds those last few seconds, but I have often wondered what the pilots were thinking when they turned on to that darkened runway. I'm not a pilot, but I can't help but wonder why they didn't realize that something wasn't right. Why didn't they look at their compass? Why didn't they stop and think for a moment?

My primary thoughts, however, are about the pax, as they are in any crash. I wonder if any of them looked out the window and knew that the plane was on the wrong runway? Did any of them try to get word to the pilots? Did any of them know that they were doomed?

What a terrible tragedy.
Flying Colors Forever!
 
georgebush
Posts: 488
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:15 am

RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:32 pm

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 3):
maybe a more streamlined way of getting NOTAMs to pilots.

I would have to agree, I know at FWA the NOTAM's come though the station fax machines and are usually discarded or stuck up on the notice board in ops. Our crews never even went into ops unless they were on a delay, but usually then just to eat and watch movies, not read the NOTAM's on the board.

Idk if any other airline does it differently, but to my knowlege the airport isnt obligated to do anymore than just send a fax... They really should have to send that to dispatch or something so that it can be included on the flight release. Just my 2 cents.
Al Gore invented global warming.
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:47 pm

The sterile cockpit violation doesn't concern me. That's probably the most violated rule in the airlines.

Go to www.alpa.org, and look at their report. Very good information there.
 
gh123
Posts: 645
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:09 pm

RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting WN230 (Reply 11):
No, the accident report said that N431CA was the plane that crashed. And to prove myself, here is the sentence where that came from . . .

" On August 27, 2006, about 0606:35 eastern daylight time, Comair flight 5191, a Bombardier CL-600-2B19, N431CA, crashed during takeoff from Blue Grass Airport, Lexington, Kentucky. "

Perhaps but at the beginning of the hearing, on their powerpoint presentation it said N431FE, not CA.

They got it wrong, shocking for a hearing as important as this.


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SPREE34
Posts: 1574
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:33 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 10):
ATC rest I think.]

[IIRC the ATC on duty was fatigued.

Stupid schedules that a private business couldn't/wouldn't do. No other safety (nuke plants, train, bus, maritime,...) related business are permitted to work this way.

Fatigued, AND alone! The Control Tower was understaffed. By FAA Order there was to be two Controllers. One fatigued person was doing the work of two on multiple combined control positions.

Fire, not re-assign or demote, but FIRE the tower manager, regional air traffic manager, deputy administrator for air traffic, and FAA administrator. When their future replacements see there is accountability in those positions, things may change. Does anyone disagree?
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Comair 5191 Crash Ntsb Final Report Today 0930 EST

Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 5):
Lots of talk about the lack of sterile cockpit routine at the moment, as well as confirmation bias

Just to put in a little context, the non-sterile conversation happened during the pushback, not during taxi. Due to the short (only a few hundred yards) taxi distance, the crew would be occupied with matters pertaining to the upcoming take off. Something which gets little press is that neither pilot had been issued the updated taxi diagram for Lexington. If the NOTAMs were not included on the ATIS, two chances were missed to break that accident chain.
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