Boston92
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Rules On Same Day Returns...

Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:58 am

Are there any special rules on same day returns that would protect the airline if they don't get you to your destination before you are scheduled to return (all on same ticket). Specifically United with an arrival into SFO at noon and a departure at 4:00p.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
northstardc4m
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:35 am

If it IS one ticket (check in ONCE for both segments), then it should be like any other connection.

However, most airlines will actually not book a same day return as one ticket, in which case, you are hosed, as far as the airline is concerned you were late, not their problem.
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:46 am

the late HMY was willing to book a same day return ticket from YYZ to YVR. However, the Expedia web site wouldn't do it, I had to call the airline. I was asked before booking and during the check-in why am I doing it. It worked out well.
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BAxMAN
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:00 am

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 1):
However, most airlines will actually not book a same day return as one ticket, in which case, you are hosed, as far as the airline is concerned you were late, not their problem.

Really?

On some itineraries you may have to pay a higher fare for a same day return as you may fall foul of minimum stay requirements for discounted fares and perhaps immigration officers might ask a question or two, but otherwise there is rarely a problem with doing this. Same day return tickets are a necessity for many business commuters.
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Boston92
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:36 am

Quoting BAxMAN (Reply 3):

Big necessity. The routing is SMX-LAX-SFO with a 40 minute layover in LAX and 4 hours in SFO. I only need to be in SFO as long as it takes to exchange handshakes and then be on my way back home, but if I miss my flight from LAX, and be put on a later flight, I am scared that the later flight won't get there until after I am scheduled to leave.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
ANother
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:21 am

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 1):
However, most airlines will actually not book a same day return as one ticket,

Rubbish. I do same day returns on single ticket all the time.

Some airlines may not do some itineraries - maybe, but it certainly isn't an industry policy.
 
deltairlines
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:37 am

I had an issue like this a couple of weeks ago. I was flying to CMH for the day - specifically for about 2 hours. Upon getting to BOS, my original flight was delayed where I would misconnect in EWR, and when I got onto a CLE flight, that was delayed an hour which would have caused a misconnect in CLE. I got off the plane, went to the President's Club (since I didn't feel like doing this at the counter where the gate agent snapped at me that I shouldn't have left the plane even though I now had no reason to travel) and got a full refund of my ticket (a non-refundable ticket) due to the trip being in vain.

As for same day returns, any major carrier allows it. I've done same-day returns on DL, CO, US, UA and AA, and I've booked dummy reservations for same day returns on WN, FL, B6, AS, NW, etc. Yeah, you might have to pay higher fares due to minimum stay requirements. But many times, you won't. For example, back in December, I did a mileage run out to ONT (from BOS) as a same-day return - the check-in agent thought it was strange, but when I told her it was a cheap way ($200) to retain Medallion status, she understood completely. I've done several legitimate same-day return trips as well; if I've got a meeting mid-day, I can wake up and go to sleep in my own bed (always preferable) and take care of business during the day; that way, I don't make it a 2-day trip, which means more time for me to use as I see fit on that second day.
 
Boston92
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 6):
and got a full refund of my ticket

But you also got a plane back to BOS though, right?  Wink
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 7):
Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 6):
and got a full refund of my ticket

But you also got a plane back to BOS though, right?

I think you will find he never left BOS in the first place - initially he was meant to route BOS x/ EWR CMH and when that ran late they were going to put him on BOS x/CLE CMH but since that also was running late to the extent that there was no longer any point making the trip he got off the plane while it was still at the gate at BOS ( at least that is my interpretation of his post )
 
deltairlines
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 7):
But you also got a plane back to BOS though, right?

Never left Boston. I was sitting on a flight from Boston to Cleveland, it was announced that it was delayed due to Boston weather; I knew my connection to CMH was shot, so I hit the F/A call button, told her that my trip was in vain and I'd like to get off the plane since I had no reason to travel now, then went to the PC to get the refund. I got onto a 737, but I didn't even travel an inch - the door to the plane never even closed before I got off it.
 
Boston92
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:21 am

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 9):

Okay, I misread your post and thought you were in CLE when you turned around.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
fbgdavidson
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:17 pm

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 1):
However, most airlines will actually not book a same day return as one ticket, in which case, you are hosed, as far as the airline is concerned you were late, not their problem.

What the Dickens are you on about? Have you never completed an itinerary in one day? I can only assume you've misunderstood the initial post.

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 4):
Big necessity. The routing is SMX-LAX-SFO with a 40 minute layover in LAX and 4 hours in SFO. I only need to be in SFO as long as it takes to exchange handshakes and then be on my way back home, but if I miss my flight from LAX, and be put on a later flight, I am scared that the later flight won't get there until after I am scheduled to leave.

I'd say you'd do better to just screw the potential hassle with flying, especially a short connection 40min @ LAX (is that even legal MCT?) and just drive up the 101...
"My first job was selling doors, door to door, that's a tough job innit" - Bill Bailey
 
Boston92
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:01 pm

Quoting Fbgdavidson (Reply 11):
hassle with flying

I think you are the first to say that on this whole site  Wink
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:18 pm

Quoting Fbgdavidson (Reply 11):
I'd say you'd do better to just screw the potential hassle with flying, especially a short connection 40min @ LAX (is that even legal MCT?) and just drive up the 101...

You do realize that's a 5-to-6 hour drive in each direction, right? 40 minutes should be plenty of time--UA publishes a 37 min. connection for that routing on the first sample ticket I tried as a test reservation.
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swiftski
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:50 pm

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 1):
However, most airlines will actually not book a same day return as one ticket

Not sure about this one; I've done same say returns on Wizz Air, Ryanair (x many), BA, LOT, AA, UA on same tickets.

On different airlines though, airline A don't care if airline B made you late in.
 
deltairlines
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:20 pm

Quoting Swiftski (Reply 14):
On different airlines though, airline A don't care if airline B made you late in.

If everything is booked on one PNR, then it's fine since all segments are protected. For example, if you're on flight 123 by Airline A connecting to flight 456 by Airline B, but Flight 123 is delayed where you miss your connection to Flt 456, then Airline A is responsible for getting you to your final destination, as long as your on the same PNR. If not, then you'll need to hope Airline B will let you stand by or same day confirm for a later flight.
 
atlaaron
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:31 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
UA publishes a 37 min. connection for that routing on the first sample ticket I tried as a test reservation.

Don't trust UA on that one. I argued over and over with DL one time on the phone that there was no way my parents could make a 30 minute something connection in ATL. They fought me and I initially lost, however DL of course changed around their flight schedules about a week before the flight, so the layover became longer.

Long story but the short of it is, don't trust the reservation system.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 16):
Long story but the short of it is, don't trust the reservation system.

Agreed, however I've yet to find an airline's computer or reservations agent intentionally ticketing you on a company-to-company connection which is invalid under their own MCT (I'm sure it's been done at some point--there's always the odd exception and fluke in everything). I've seen MCTs as low as 25 minutes at even major hubs over the years, but do not know offhand what the MCT is for a UA-to-UA connection at LAX, in all honesty.
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fbgdavidson
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
You do realize that's a 5-to-6 hour drive in each direction, right? 40 minutes should be plenty of time--UA publishes a 37 min. connection for that routing on the first sample ticket I tried as a test reservation.

5-6hrs? Been a while since I've driven from LA-San Francisco on the 101 but I'm pretty sure it took about 5hrs 30mins from LA. Either way I just Expedia'd the OP's potential journey and it meant leaving SMX at 10.15am, with 2hrs in SFO, and would get the OP back to SMX at 6.35pm. This is providing a 45min, and a 1hr connection are made safely at LAX...

With regards to the connection, I hope you're not on the last flight out of the day from LAX as you'll be SOL. I wouldn't trust UA's reservation system either, I was pricing out itineraries with LAX connections a few weeks ago and it let me book a less than the legal MCT. Well, almost, it let me select it then it wouldn't book for some reason, then I noticed the connection. According to United's website the following are the MCTs for LAX, rather ambitious if you ask me.

Domestic to domestic 0:30
Domestic to international 0:30
International to domestic 1:10
International to International 1:10
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AeroWesty
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting Fbgdavidson (Reply 18):
5-6hrs? Been a while since I've driven from LA-San Francisco on the 101 but I'm pretty sure it took about 5hrs 30mins from LA.

Perhaps on I-5, but the 101 isn't an interstate and winds its way up the coast--not as quixotic as Highway 1, but Santa Barbara to SF is in the 6-hour range, and SB is 90 minutes+ north of L.A.

Quoting Fbgdavidson (Reply 18):
Domestic to domestic 0:30

Cool, thanks for looking that up!
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Leskova
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting Swiftski (Reply 14):
On different airlines though, airline A don't care if airline B made you late in.

Wrong. If the flights are on the same ticket, they may try to weasel out of their responsibility, but it is the responsibility of the delivering airline nonetheless. They're responsible for rebooking you - they don't have a choice.

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 15):
If everything is booked on one PNR, then it's fine since all segments are protected. For example, if you're on flight 123 by Airline A connecting to flight 456 by Airline B, but Flight 123 is delayed where you miss your connection to Flt 456, then Airline A is responsible for getting you to your final destination, as long as your on the same PNR. If not, then you'll need to hope Airline B will let you stand by or same day confirm for a later flight.

Almost - it has nothing to do with being booked in one PNR, but with the flights being ticketed on one ticket: you can easily have several tickets in one PNR and still be completely unprotected.

Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 16):
Don't trust UA on that one. I argued over and over with DL one time on the phone that there was no way my parents could make a 30 minute something connection in ATL. They fought me and I initially lost, however DL of course changed around their flight schedules about a week before the flight, so the layover became longer.

Long story but the short of it is, don't trust the reservation system.

MCTs are usually published by the airports, not the airlines - at least that's the way it is in Europe... I'd be rather surprised if it were that different in the US.
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Boston92
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:38 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 19):
Perhaps on I-5, but the 101 isn't an interstate and winds its way up the coast--not as quixotic as Highway 1, but Santa Barbara to SF is in the 6-hour range, and SB is 90 minutes+ north of L.A.

SBA-SFO will be 6 hours. LAX-SFO could take as much as 10 during peak travel times, but 8.5 as an average (75 MPH in the center lane).

[Edited 2007-07-29 19:38:50]
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
purplebox
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:53 am

I do this all the time - on business and leasure trips.

In March I had NUE/ZRH/NUE leaving NUE around 10:30 (I hour flight) returning from ZRH at around 20:15 the same day on LX (Swiss).

The outbound was cancelled and I was rerouted NUE/MUC/ZRH on LH (Lufthansa) which meant leaving at 10:00 and arriving in ZRH about 0:45 minutes late.

Concidering I only paid 107€ for the trip and was upgraded to business class between NUE and MUC, and the MUC-ZRH was on a CRJ900 which was new to me I didn't complain. I got 2625 more FF miles as well.

The airline at no time asked me any strange questions but must have lost a lot of money on the trip. I think that they just put it down to a cost of doing business.

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swiftski
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 15):
If everything is booked on one PNR, then it's fine since all segments are protected

True; I wasn't clear enough in my post; I was refering to separate tickets.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 20):
Wrong. If the flights are on the same ticket, they may try to weasel out of their responsibility, but it is the responsibility of the delivering airline nonetheless. They're responsible for rebooking you - they don't have a choice.

If you book one way on BA and back on LH, on two completely separate and unrelated tickets, that LH would accept you and transfer you to another flight free of charge?

BA might, as a gesture, but LH would say "you've missed your flight". AA did exactly this to me after I had a cancelled UA flight, and missed my AA BOS-JFK.
 
Leskova
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting Swiftski (Reply 23):
If you book one way on BA and back on LH, on two completely separate and unrelated tickets, that LH would accept you and transfer you to another flight free of charge?

Is that a question? If yes, read through the part of my post you quoted - I specifically mention on the same ticket. I, in the part you quoted, never claimed that they'd be doing that on "two completely separate and unrelated tickets".

If, on the other hand, you were simply trying to repeat what I was saying: you succeeded.
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swiftski
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:42 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 24):
If, on the other hand, you were simply trying to repeat what I was saying: you succeeded.

I assumed you yourself were not repeating:

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 15):
If everything is booked on one PNR, then it's fine since all segments are protected

however it seems you were.
 
BAxMAN
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:31 am

Quoting Swiftski (Reply 25):
however it seems you were.

You should re-read Leskova's post. Big difference between same PNR and same ticket, my friend.
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swiftski
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:27 am

Quoting BAxMAN (Reply 26):
Big difference between same PNR and same ticket

Can you explain things like Expedia; I am unsure how they work. Do they not use the same PNR and ticket? Or am I confusing a combination of those with "itinerary"?
 
fbgdavidson
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:44 am

Quoting Swiftski (Reply 27):
Can you explain things like Expedia; I am unsure how they work. Do they not use the same PNR and ticket? Or am I confusing a combination of those with "itinerary"?

Nope. I have an upcoming itinerary booked on Expedia, one itinerary but two separate PNRs, one for my flight on US, the other for the other flights on United. When you get the confirmation page on Expedia it shows you both PNRs.

I have another itinerary booked through United.com, again mostly UA with a couple of flights on US and it has one PNR.

These things can get really confusing for the unintiated, infrequent passenger.
"My first job was selling doors, door to door, that's a tough job innit" - Bill Bailey
 
Boston92
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:48 am

Quoting Fbgdavidson (Reply 28):
I have another itinerary booked through United.com, again mostly UA with a couple of flights on US and it has one PNR.

Those are just code shares though. You can book UA and AA on the same ticket if you wanted.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
BAxMAN
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:51 am

Quoting Swiftski (Reply 27):
Can you explain things like Expedia; I am unsure how they work. Do they not use the same PNR and ticket? Or am I confusing a combination of those with "itinerary"?

On occasions, it may work out cheaper to split some itineraries on to separate tickets. This is especially so in Europe where different airlines' fares do not always combine cheaply with those of another carrier. Therefore, travel agent may book LHR-BA-FRA-LH-TXL-BA-LHR. Quote this as one ticket, and you have quite a steep fare. However, you can still book this in one PNR but issue 2 separate tickets - a BA ticket LHR-FRA/-TXL-LHR and a LH ticket FRA-TXL. On the face of it, this may seem like it's all on one booking. Assuming the travel agent has booked in Amadeus, you could even go on BA's own website and it would happily show you the LH flight in Manage My Booking. But, looking a bit further would show you have as much protection as a box of rubbers from the Poundshop if connections go awry as although it's on one PNR, you still have separate tickets. Ideally, and self respecting booking agent would let their customer know the score in this respect.

Quoting Fbgdavidson (Reply 28):
Nope. I have an upcoming itinerary booked on Expedia, one itinerary but two separate PNRs, one for my flight on US, the other for the other flights on United. When you get the confirmation page on Expedia it shows you both PNRs.

I have another itinerary booked through United.com, again mostly UA with a couple of flights on US and it has one PNR.

These things can get really confusing for the unintiated, infrequent passenger.

To the best of my knowledge, most automated internet agencies will issue your whole itinerary on one PNR and on one ticket, hence why a lot of 'imaginitive' routings will often trip up at the last stage due to the lack of interline ticketing agreements between the carrier whose plate is to be used and the various other carriers. You may have a couple of different PNR codes solely due to the fact that Expedia and the airlines may use a different GDS to host their reservations. But, ultimately, when you trace back to the source, the original PNR should contain everything.
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pnwtraveler
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:00 pm

I flew to LGA from YYZ to have a meeting in the airport. Someone flew from Boston, someone from DC and two people were from the New York area. We used the Red Carpet Lounge meeting room. The two local people had permission (not sure if they had to pay something but had high status levels in United's frequent flyer) and the rest of us were Star Alliance customers. Our meeting took exactly 1 hour and 15 minutes. After the meeting we all left and flew back to whereever we came from. I flew AC and had one ticket. There was one flight in between the one I arrived on and the one I departed LGA on. My travel time was actually less than the New Yorkers  Silly
 
ANother
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RE: Rules On Same Day Returns...

Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:00 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 20):
MCTs are usually published by the airports, not the airlines - at least that's the way it is in Europe... I'd be rather surprised if it were that different in the US.

In Europe, and the US I believe, the operating airlines agree on 'interline' MCTs. This is the default MCT we used to see in the OAG - (Do they still print OAGs?) On-line MCTs, which may or may not be different, are decided by the airline concerned - but it should be in their interests to get it right.

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