DAL1044
Topic Author
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Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:32 am

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20002136/

"Boeing postponed the first flight of its new 787 Dreamliner, pushing the test to the end of September from the end of August, and has boosted research-and-development funds to ensure the fuel-efficient jetliner will overcome last-minute snarls and still enter service on time. "
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:45 am

Very interesting.... Delayed out of the starting gate....

Wonder how this will play out in the long run?


-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
Cruiser
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:47 am

This was a result of the 787 update last week by Boeing execs. They are still confident that it will EIS on time.

I was looking for the thread, but it seems to be MIA. Perhaps it got deleted...

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
thebry
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:59 am

Just an update on what has been expected (and hinted at by Boeing all along). Boeing have always maintained that the Dreamliner will not fly until they're confident it's ready to do so. They've been saying they're "targeting" late August or early September for first flight, but that the timeframe wasn't set in stone.

As long as they remain confident it will EIS by May 2008, the program isn't "late".
 
khobar
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting DAL1044 (Thread starter):
"Boeing postponed the first flight of its new 787 Dreamliner, pushing the test to the end of September from the end of August

September is within the original window, so it hasn't been postponed.
 
AA737-823
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:46 am

Quoting Thebry (Reply 3):
Just an update on what has been expected (and hinted at by Boeing all along).



Quoting Khobar (Reply 4):
September is within the original window, so it hasn't been postponed.

I disagree. We all know how big a Boeing fan I am (just check out how badly my fair statements on the 777-2LR versus A345 got shot down in the 'no long range routes for -2LR thread). But you guys are drinking the Boeing koolaid, methinks. Boeing has said late August EARLY September for the longest time, so to say that a delay is not a delay is... wishful thinking.
Fear not, Boeing will be okay, and since we haven't heard anything about wiring not coming together, or "Oops, this plane is one metre longer than the French software thinks it is," I don't look for this to be a big deal.

We knew something was up when they announced last week that all flight test aircraft would be sold as revenue units, rather than remain test aircraft.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:50 am

First flight is about 2 weeks later than the window. But this is not news. Why does it deserve a new thread? Because MSNBC is late in reporting it? There has been plenty of discussion on this over the past few weeks.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Boogyjay
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:11 am

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 2):
This was a result of the 787 update last week by Boeing execs. They are still confident that it will EIS on time.

I was looking for the thread, but it seems to be MIA. Perhaps it got deleted...

I too wonder why the other thread got deleted...  Confused

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
We all know how big a Boeing fan I am (just check out how badly my fair statements on the 777-2LR versus A345 got shot down in the 'no long range routes for -2LR thread)

Yes you are and I agree, you got shot down I witnessed that  Big grin

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
But you guys are drinking the Boeing koolaid, methinks.

Me thinks too. But hey this is Boeing we're talking about, it has to be called something else than 'delay'.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
Fear not, Boeing will be okay,

 checkmark  Even if they screw the thing up, they cannot do worse than Airbus. For once, it looks like they acknowledge the delay and immediately put money on the table. This is far far more clever than what Airbus did : deny the problem up to the explosion of the problem.
They will spend more money than planned but it's better to use it now than bleed the $$$ later to the customers (ala Airbus).
 
wolbo
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:29 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
First flight is about 2 weeks later than the window. But this is not news. Why does it deserve a new thread? Because MSNBC is late in reporting it? There has been plenty of discussion on this over the past few weeks.

Well, it seems that threads with Boeing problems sometimes disappear into the night as did the previous one on this topic, so maybe if you cross your fingers this one will share the same fate.  Wink

Mind you if all that happens with the B787 program is a two or three week delay on a intermediairy project milestone they will have done a fantastic job.
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:07 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
"Oops, this plane is one metre longer than the French software thinks it is,"

Funny, funny.

by the way it's the same french software that Boeing uses.
 
777fan
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:08 am

Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 7):
They will spend more money than planned but it's better to use it now than bleed the $$$ later to the customers (ala Airbus).

Something tells me that with the influx of gajillions of greenbacks in order deposits, Boeing will be able to pocket the extra R&D.

Anyone have any info on the status of the "oven" in Japan? Do they have it up and running to the point where fuselage sections are cranking out on a regular basis?


777fan
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
ilikeflight
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:36 am

Boeing has announced this awhile ago but they still say it will enter service in May '08
Think Different
 
DAL1044
Topic Author
Posts: 31
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:52 am

A couple weeks or even a couple months delay to me isn't much considering this is a brand new state of the art Airliner. It is at the forefront of technology. I simply created this thread because it is "Front Page News" where those who are not aviation fans are now reading more about the 787.
 
pygmalion
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:03 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
We knew something was up when they announced last week that all flight test aircraft would be sold as revenue units, rather than remain test aircraft

um... Boeing ALWAYS sells the test units. This should not be a surprise. Airbus does the same thing. The first delivery for the A380 is MSN003 for SQ... a prior flight test unit.

Why would any company keep 500 million dollars worth of airplanes when they could sell them?
 
centrair
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:10 am

Quoting 777fan (Reply 10):
Anyone have any info on the status of the "oven" in Japan? Do they have it up and running to the point where fuselage sections are cranking out on a regular basis?

Japan is already ramping up. The big snag for Boeing was in Italy but that has been resolved by all accounts. But is ramping a little slower. One of the Japanese companies is actually expanding its facility to meet the demand. The LCF has been over here pretty regularly picking up wings and sections.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
khobar
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:45 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
Boeing has said late August EARLY September for the longest time, so to say that a delay is not a delay is... wishful thinking.

You say we are drinking koolaid and then acknowledge September has been included for the longest time. Therefore, by your own admission the article is WRONG to say the first flight has been postponed from August to September.
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:51 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 14):
The big snag for Boeing was in Italy but that has been resolved by all accounts.

An LCF flew to Italy and back to PAE via JFK from 22 July - 25 July. Evergreen flights 5106, 5162, 5127 and 5161. Presumably the horizontal stab for #2.
 
rb211tristar
Posts: 52
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:52 am

Quoting Wolbo (Reply 8):
Mind you if all that happens with the B787 program is a two or three week delay on a intermediairy project milestone they will have done a fantastic job



Quoting DAL1044 (Reply 12):
A couple weeks or even a couple months delay to me isn't much considering this is a brand new state of the art Airliner. It is at the forefront of technology. I simply created this thread because it is "Front Page News" where those who are not aviation fans are now reading more about the 787.

100% correct. It drives me up a wall when so many people on these forums make such a big deal about schedule slips. People like myself who work in this industry know exactly how success oriented a lot of these schedules are and how many thousands of dependencies there are in meeting milestones.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 9):
Funny, funny.

by the way it's the same french software that Boeing uses

Beat me to it!

Quoting 777fan (Reply 10):
Something tells me that with the influx of gajillions of greenbacks in order deposits, Boeing will be able to pocket the extra R&D.

While the "gajillions" of dollars are helping Boeing's cash flow, R&D money comes right off the bottom line of the company... and with all that unplanned NRE/IRAD going on before full rate production, its still going to take away from their earnings (albeit, probably not much based on the amount). Hopefully that comes out of their MR.

Either way, with the high demand for the 787, I would assume Boeing is seeing some pretty nice margin on some of these orders... which Wall Street likes a lot.
 Smile
 
tsaord
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:02 am

OK so it won't take off right away and they now plan it just a couple of weeks later. Big deal. International attention is just waiting for a MAJOR flaw/delay in Boeings 787 program. If the EIS changes then maybe someone will have a cause.
there are icons, then there are legends, then there is rick flair
 
ikramerica
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:07 pm

Quoting Wolbo (Reply 8):
Mind you if all that happens with the B787 program is a two or three week delay on a intermediairy project milestone they will have done a fantastic job

Internally, it's probably more like a month. 2 weeks past the end of the window, but the target date was likely the middle of the window.

That's why I think they will be 2 weeks late in delivery, minimum.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
707lvr
Posts: 457
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:16 pm

As long as Boeing doesn't have one of the usual billion-dollar flubs in the fourth quarter which wipes out the annual profit, I don't care if they spend fairly lavishly on the 787 to make it right the first time.
 
legoguy
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:16 pm

Quoting Khobar (Reply 15):
You say we are drinking koolaid and then acknowledge September has been included for the longest time. Therefore, by your own admission the article is WRONG to say the first flight has been postponed from August to September.

There's a bit of difference between early September and late September. Boeing's aims were to have the 787 in the air late August or early September. They are now saying it may be late September. To me that is a small delay, and like it or not, it's a delay none the less.

As many have mentioned, this is old news. Many have expected the odd small delay considering what Boeing is taking on. The fact that they are so close to their original timetable is a great testament to Boeing.
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
aminobwana
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:20 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 19):
Internally, it's probably more like a month. 2 weeks past the end of the window, but the target date was likely the middle of the window.

That's why I think they will be 2 weeks late in delivery, minimum

I am surprised that this is discussed as if the time parameters and tombstones of such an task over a
near 4 years period were a precision game. Even if the delay of EIS reaches 1 month, this would be only
about 2% time-wise.

By the way: is the first flight delay a consequence of a accumulation of small causes, or is there a main
issue ???

aminobwana
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:32 pm

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 1):
Very interesting.... Delayed out of the starting gate....



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
Boeing has said late August EARLY September for the longest time, so to say that a delay is not a delay is... wishful thinking.



Quoting Legoguy (Reply 21):
Boeing's aims were to have the 787 in the air late August or early September. They are now saying it may be late September. To me that is a small delay, and like it or not, it's a delay none the less.

It is a delay, in the sense that something is happening later than they expected it to. However, it's a delay that doesn't mean anything without other information. The day of first flight is just a day that has to happen between now and delivery. It isn't a hard milestone, it isn't contractually committed to anything, and it has relatively little bearing on the date that anything else happens in the program.

The only real dates that matter are certification and delivery and Boeing hasn't moved an inch on either of those.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 9):
by the way it's the same french software that Boeing uses.

Not really...the 787 is entirely on CATIA V5. The A380 was a mix of V4 and V5. The two versions are very different.

Tom.
 
787EWR
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting Thebry (Reply 3):
As long as they remain confident it will EIS by May 2008, the program isn't "late".

Agreed. Boeing is better off announcing a delay in the first flight and getting it right. This plane is going to be under so much scrutiny and I have to be believe that the competition from Europe is sitting waiting to exploit any issue. Now if Boeing had to delay it by two years........

Quoting Centrair (Reply 14):
Japan is already ramping up. The big snag for Boeing was in Italy but that has been resolved by all accounts. But is ramping a little slower. One of the Japanese companies is actually expanding its facility to meet the demand. The LCF has been over here pretty regularly picking up wings and sections.

While I can appreciate the ingenuity of Boeing to farm this work out to other countries, I wonder if this international outsourcing will bite them in the stabilizer. Let's say Italy has some type of strike and that line shuts down. The whole project will be shot to hell based upon one countries issues. I assume Boeing and their team have some form of contingency, but I would really question if they are running a heavy risk.
 
khobar
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 21):
There's a bit of difference between early September and late September. Boeing's aims were to have the 787 in the air late August or early September. They are now saying it may be late September. To me that is a small delay, and like it or not, it's a delay none the less.

As many have mentioned, this is old news. Many have expected the odd small delay considering what Boeing is taking on. The fact that they are so close to their original timetable is a great testament to Boeing.

Oh, I understand what you're saying, but my point is that the article that started this thread is wrong. The other day there was a thread proclaiming that it had slipped to October - that was wrong too but due to people's inability to read what was printed rather than an error in the article itself.

As for it being a delay, point taken, but I'd have to see the Boeing schedule itself and see if they used a pencil, Sharpie, or hammer-and-chisel before agreeing or disagreeing with you.  Wink
 
WYG737LVR
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:04 am

Better a delay of a few months than one of a few years.

I still can't believe that the A380 has still not been delviered, what's the hangup? The plane flies, and other than the wing load test, the testing program has been successful, get the darn thing into revenue service already. Hopefully once its in service they can sell a few more frames.

My biggest fear is the amount of out-sourcing that is being done on the 787. What happens if one or two of its partners/suppliers' labor force decide to strike? I realize and understand that they are outsourcing to try and keep costs under control, but what happens to the cost savings when they start having to pay penalites to the airlines because of part delays due to labor actions?

One last comment/thought... have any of the aircraft companies ever designed, built and flew an aircraft before unvailing it to the airlines? The airlines needs/requirements are really not that hard to figure out, so designing an aircraft the market would want is not hard. There are no revenues coming in from a new frame until it is delivered, so $$$ for R & D is moot. Imagine what kind of impression it would make if at the "roll-out", you could say to all the airline CEO's in attendance, "Lets go for a ride", and "we can start delivering in a month". I think you'd set sales records, and so long as your Marketing Department has it right, bring the competition to its knees.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:33 am

Quoting 787EWR (Reply 25):
I wonder if this international outsourcing will bite them in the stabilizer. Let's say Italy has some type of strike and that line shuts down. The whole project will be shot to hell based upon one countries issues.

Completely true, but Boeing runs the same risk with their own unions every 3 years and that paralyzes *all* their production lines if they go on strike.

Quoting WYG737LVR (Reply 27):
have any of the aircraft companies ever designed, built and flew an aircraft before unvailing it to the airlines?

None that I've ever heard of.

Quoting WYG737LVR (Reply 27):
There are no revenues coming in from a new frame until it is delivered,

Not true. Airlines have to plunk down deposits to secure their aircraft orders.

Quoting WYG737LVR (Reply 27):
Imagine what kind of impression it would make if at the "roll-out", you could say to all the airline CEO's in attendance, "Lets go for a ride", and "we can start delivering in a month".

It would certainly make an impression. If I were an airline CEO, my impression would be something like "Are these guys completely ignorant of how an airline works?!"

More specifically, an airline needs a *lot* more than a month to take a new type into their fleet. I don't think they'd appreciate the surprise (assuming you could keep it a surprise, which is doubtful).

Quoting WYG737LVR (Reply 27):
I think you'd set sales records, and so long as your Marketing Department has it right, bring the competition to its knees.

I think you'd be taking an enourmous risk for very little gain and no competent Board of Governors would ever sanction such a move. You can't sell a product your buyers don't know about and it would be very difficult to keep a major development project a secret from your competitors.

Tom.
 
aminobwana
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:32 am

RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:41 am

Quoting 787EWR (Reply 25):
While I can appreciate the ingenuity of Boeing to farm this work out to other countries, I wonder if this international outsourcing will bite them in the stabilizer. Let's say Italy has some type of strike and that line shuts down. The whole project will be shot to hell based upon one countries issues. I assume Boeing and their team have some form of contingency, but I would really question if they are running a heavy risk.

Even if you are right that by outsourcing oversea problems of such countries can become thei own, this must be seen between other within the following context:

1) This problem exist if the critical outsourced part cost millions or a few hundred thousands.

2) I would worry regarding China and Russia, not because strikes but quality issues. Especially at the former, the only way to obtain a reaonable protection is sent several (very expensive) inspectors to the factory controlling all the steps and the secondary supplier products, and then, extra-severe reception control at the US assembling site, again expensive.
The China problem could be a separate interesting topic. The most grave problem are the secondary, tertiary and further down suppliers, generally small and recent personal enterprises. As a consequence of many years of a regime (must stricter than the Soviet Union) which stopped any private commerce and initiative, as a reaction such entrepreneurs want to make now money quickly, whichever the means. Therefore, as example often they have no inhibition to use even knowingly poor materials, as long as cheap.
Th US press is showing many examples of the stated above

3) The strike risk in Japan is much less than in the US, nearly nil !

4) From my own experience with Italian technological goods. it can be said"

- the Italian strikes are a serious problem in state and generally in public service organization, where the politically infiltrated general Union confederation pressures the government for their own polical and social purposes.

- Nevertheless, the strikes in middle size private enterprises are very rare. What happens is that there are relatively frequent "solidarity" actions imposed by the Union confederation, but these are more symbolic and only cause the loss of few hours, without major disruption because management ii used to it. Factually, significant deliveries delay due to such cause seldom occur.

aminobwana
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13763
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:03 am

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 22):
I am surprised that this is discussed as if the time parameters and tombstones of such an task over a near 4 years period were a precision game. Even if the delay of EIS reaches 1 month, this would be only
about 2% time-wise.

it has to be precision to fly at all. and they are now outside their window, so the plane will be delayed unless there is some plan in place to speed up the construction of the other test frames and get all the hours in with 2-4 fewer weeks.

2 weeks isn't the end of the world, about 1% time wise, and considering most planes end up 1% overweight, 1% seems acceptable. But now Boeing has to hope nothing else goes wrong, which is likely why they are increasing the R&D budget again.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
chuchoteur
Posts: 609
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:17 pm

RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 13):
um... Boeing ALWAYS sells the test units. This should not be a surprise. Airbus does the same thing. The first delivery for the A380 is MSN003 for SQ... a prior flight test unit.

Incorrect
MSN0003 is straight off the line, never was instrumented or participated in the Flight Test Program.

MSN0002 will be the first "refurbished" aircraft to be delivered to a customer, following participation in the Flight Test Program.

As regards B787 first flight, NOBODY can set a firm date for a first flight, it happens when the aircraft is ready, and when all conditions are met. For example, the aircraft may be ready, but meteorological conditions may prevent the aircraft from flying, and that "delay" would not have anything to do with the aircraft itself or the program status...
 
Danny
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Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:26 am

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 2):
They are still confident that it will EIS on time.

They said "remains possible" which doesn't sound that confident.
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:27 am

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 9):
by the way it's the same french software that Boeing uses.

Boeing has sworn by CATIA since the 777. I doubt they would change the program.

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 22):
Even if the delay of EIS reaches 1 month, this would be only about 2% time-wise.

A month delay is still 'normal' in a new aircraft introduction.
 
airtran717
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:48 am

RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:34 am

Quoting Thebry (Reply 3):
They've been saying they're "targeting" late August or early September for first flight, but that the timeframe wasn't set in stone.

That's kind of my thinking on this... Why do people have to make more out of something than there really is?

Someone please tell us when Boeing has quoted an exact date??? They've never set a date so it's hard to be delayed when there isn't one.... Sheesh!!
 
airtran717
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:48 am

RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:36 am

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 13):
Boeing ALWAYS sells the test units.

Very true. AirTran took delivery of #703 before 701 or 702. The first two were finishing up testing and touring while we were flying the first one. AND we eventually took delivery of the first two as well.

The above a/c numbers were the 717's incidentally.

717
 
707lvr
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:41 am

RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:48 am

Union leaders in countries which have major portions of this work have to know that in addition to the usual likely consquences of a strike/slowdown/action, they also risk having their entire country put on a do-not-call list for years. Even so, one of us should probably alert Boeing to the possibility so they can make contingency plans.
 
sstsomeday
Posts: 821
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:32 pm

RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:08 am

Calm down, everybody. This thread is a great example of a rumormill based primarily on conjector and flights of fancy.

What we do know is:

- that the first flight is slightly delayed, but not very far out of the projected window.
- that extra resources are being focused on the project in order to not delay EIS.
- that Boeing does not expect the EIS to be delayed at this point
- that Boeing has a record of being pretty forthcoming (and in a timely manner) with regard to this sort of thing.

The facts as they now present themselves can neither be construed as being part of a coverup nor an expectation that EIS will be delayed, unless further information materializes that would indicate such.
I come in peace
 
rverginia
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:29 am

RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:55 am

I think many of you are taking this announcement WAY out there! We are not talking about a small consumer product like a toaster here, or an X-Box 360 (which was originally delayed 6 months), we are talking about one of the most technologically advanced machines ever built by a human. Something our children, and their childrens lives will depend on.

If Ford delayed the release of the 2008 Taurus, like they did the 2007 Edge, nobody would be drumming up suspicion and comparing them to the competition, so why is it that Boeing and Airbus always fall victim to this? The delays of the A380 are neccessary to make that airplane safe (see paragraph 1),

Thank God Boeing says "we won't fly it until it's ready", rather than "we're flying September 1st, ready or not".

Soon enough we will all get to fly on these magnificent machines, and feel safe doing so.


Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 13):
um... Boeing ALWAYS sells the test units.

True, with the exception of the Dash 80 (707) - sent to the desert and then refurbished and donated to the Smithsonian, the 747 (RA001) - used as a test bed for several models, up to the 777, and then donated to the Seattle Museum of Flight. The 757 (NA001) - serving as a research testbed, and the 767 (VA001) - used by NASA and Boeing for military research. I just heard this airframe was dismantled (Sad). The 1st 727 & 737 were donated to the Seattle Museum of Flight after many years of commercial service. Finally, the first 717, and 777 (WA001) are still in active revenue service.
 
thebry
Posts: 333
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:50 am

RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting 787EWR (Reply 25):
While I can appreciate the ingenuity of Boeing to farm this work out to other countries, I wonder if this international outsourcing will bite them in the stabilizer. Let's say Italy has some type of strike and that line shuts down. The whole project will be shot to hell based upon one countries issues. I assume Boeing and their team have some form of contingency, but I would really question if they are running a heavy risk.



Quoting WYG737LVR (Reply 27):
My biggest fear is the amount of out-sourcing that is being done on the 787. What happens if one or two of its partners/suppliers' labor force decide to strike? I realize and understand that they are outsourcing to try and keep costs under control, but what happens to the cost savings when they start having to pay penalites to the airlines because of part delays due to labor actions?

It'd be foolish to believe Boeing doesn't have a "disaster recovery" program at the ready. I'm betting deploying such a program would have been a requirement before mechanizing this elaborate global production workflow (involving several countries, dozens of factories, etc.)
 
captainx
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:06 pm

RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:26 am

Ignore everything Boeing says. They are saying what they have to say. Last year at this time they said the LCF would be certified by the end of 2006. Well, they were off by more than 2x since it took till June 2007 and they really only had one technical problem (wing flutter), solved by removing the winglets and shifting fuel. They did not need to certify it for passenger service so it took far fewer flight hours than the 787 will, yet took 10 months to certify rather than the 4 they promised it would.

A little research into the massive wiring and integration effort they are now mired in on #1 indicates that the first flight will be late, very late, and the test program will take at least a year, perhaps two.

The FAA will be extremely cautious about approving this aircraft, and the FAA has the final say. The FAA also has to approve the production processes of all the parts at all the suppliers prior to EIS. They will take their time and, no, it won't be a cake-walk. The FAA is in no hurry and could care less about all the delivery deadlines BA has signed up for.

If you remember In April 2007, the FAA demanded Boeing plan and conduct new tests for fire protection and crash worthiness as the FAA needs to be convinced that a composite approach will be as good as Aluminum in protecting the fuel and the passengers. Boeing doesn't seem to have accounted for these tests in their build plan as these will consume at least 2 aircraft during the test program.

Common sense says mid-2008 First Flight and late 2009 EIS.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 9855
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:02 am

Quoting CaptainX (Reply 40):
Common sense says mid-2008 First Flight and late 2009 EIS.

Common sense to me says not to think that way until something is officially announced by Boeing.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:03 pm

Quoting CaptainX (Reply 40):
If you remember In April 2007, the FAA demanded Boeing plan and conduct new tests for fire protection and crash worthiness as the FAA needs to be convinced that a composite approach will be as good as Aluminum in protecting the fuel and the passengers. Boeing doesn't seem to have accounted for these tests in their build plan as these will consume at least 2 aircraft during the test program.

Why would these tests consume two aircraft? They can all be done at the coupon and component level.

Tom.
 
captainx
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:06 pm

RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:46 pm

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 41):
Why would these tests consume two aircraft? They can all be done at the coupon and component level.

I'm pretty sure the FAA would not agree at all with that statement.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:28 pm

Quoting CaptainX (Reply 42):
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 41):
Why would these tests consume two aircraft? They can all be done at the coupon and component level.

I'm pretty sure the FAA would not agree at all with that statement.

Why not? There is nothing that the FAA is asking about that is load dependant and you don't need a full wing to assess burn through on individual sections of it. What's the need for a full airframe test?

Tom.
 
antdenatale
Posts: 152
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:08 am

RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:36 am

Quoting CaptainX (Reply 39):
Ignore everything Boeing says. They are saying what they have to say. Last year at this time they said the LCF would be certified by the end of 2006. Well, they were off by more than 2x since it took till June 2007 and they really only had one technical problem (wing flutter), solved by removing the winglets and shifting fuel. They did not need to certify it for passenger service so it took far fewer flight hours than the 787 will, yet took 10 months to certify rather than the 4 they promised it would.



Quoting CaptainX (Reply 39):
Common sense says mid-2008 First Flight and late 2009 EIS.

This is going to be great, I think I will just sit here for the next few hours and watch the fireworks in the replies to this post  Wink  Wink
 
Boogyjay
Posts: 436
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:17 am

I must say my experience with FAA has been quite worrying. If they want to put a halt to your program, they will simply do it.

Recently, on a very big cabin mod program, they were just coming up with late requirements, at the end of the mod, when the aircraft was (technically) ready to EIS and just waiting on the apron for the last 2 months, about things that were previously agreed for. See, they discarded an original Boeing design (about HIC, less than 35" to door emergency slide cover, substantiated by Boeing by tests and with the a/c delivered by Boeing installed this way), they asked for more substantiation documents that never were in the cert plan agreed, they wanted new tests to be conducted, etc...

They even stopped the a/c entering back into service, with flights already scheduled and pax booked and already at the airport, although the local authorities were about to give the go ahead (based on an informal FAA OK, they were just waiting the official OK), by asking for a new test. At midnight (local time), 2 of my colleagues that were booked and were about to come back home with the evening flight had to look for and stop the DER in the international zone of the airport as he had already passed the customs (I don't explain you the custom hassle), was ready to go back home too, just because he needed to witness this last minute test.

FAA did not care AT ALL about airline operations, stranded pax et al, and all the money the airline was already bleeding after 3 months of delays (for an original mod time of 2-3 months). Even if we previously agreed on a certification plan, they saw new issues (that frankly were not issues) and just said : "Yes we said that, but we now want that, and if you don't provide it to us, we won't sign the STC, simple as that".

As for the B787, I know it is completely another scale, but there are also lots of new stuffs with which the regulatory authorities (FAA and EASA) are not used to. Also, Boeing have much much more power that we do with the FAA.
In the end, I think all issues will be ironed out OK (but certainly not easily) in a relatively good timing, BUT I would not be surprised if the FAA was deciding to hold off the program, they just have the power.
 
Flighty
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RE: Msnbc Reporting On 787 Delays

Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 45):
BUT I would not be surprised if the FAA was deciding to hold off the program, they just have the power.

That must be frustrating at times, but ys. The FAA does have the power to ground aircraft. FAA is known around the world for being very safety conscious. They got that way because the public wants it that way.

Of course, you can get individuals on power trips. It is my hope that the FAA behaves with our safety at heart. Of course, new problems can and do arise. "Can" the FAA put new restrictions on aircraft and interfere with airline operations, most certainly yes. That is their purpose.