columba
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Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:45 pm

I was wondering how many airlines operated both the Dc 10 and the L1011 together.
I know BA did at one point as well as Pan Am.
Also I would like to know airlines that had Dc 9s and 737-200s and 737 classics and MD 80s.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:51 pm

I guess that many airlines accross the world have both the A32x and the 737 in their fleets but a good example would be BA in the early 90's after they took over BCal taking on board their A320s and eventually the A320 became the single Isle of choice.
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:57 pm

Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
I was wondering how many airlines operated both the Dc 10 and the L1011 together.

Eastern operated a large fleet of L1011's but ended up leasing some DC10's due to range shortfalls of the L1011.

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 1):
I guess that many airlines across the world have both the A32x and the 737 in their fleets but a good example would be BA in the early 90's after they took over BCal taking on board their A320s and eventually the A320 became the single Isle of choice.

well you really cannot count the A320/737 fleets as the same. When the A320 first came out the world was still operating large fleets of 727's. The A320 was an ideal replacement for the A320 in size and range. I think we can all agree that the 727 and the 737 both provided for different missions for air carriers. It wasn't until Airbus was riding on the success of the A320 that they identified the opportunity for the rest of the A320 family as replacements for those smaller aircraft. I would expect that airlines would operate both the A320 and the 737!

-m



[Edited 2007-07-30 12:59:44]
 
OceansWorld
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:00 pm

Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
I was wondering how many airlines operated both the Dc 10 and the L1011 together.
I know BA did at one point as well as Pan Am.

The first to do so was DL when they operated five DC-10-10s at beginning of the '70s while the TriStar program going through rough turbulence due to the RR-engine problems; and also later 1987-1989 following the merger with Western Airlines. As you said both BA and PA operated them alongside. At least three more airlines did it too. Eastern Airlines 1985-1990, UA following their acquisition of the Pan Am's Pacific division and six L-1011-500s, 12 B747 SPs and one DC-10-30; Caledonian operated too both Trijets at the same time during the '90s as did Hawaiian Air during 1994 for a short while during their transition from L-1011s to DC-10s.
 
columba
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:03 pm

I was more looking for the past I know airlines like AUA, Air Berlin and SAS have 737NGs and A320s but I was looking more for now rarer aircraft Dc 9 and 737-200s (or Caravelles and Bac 1-11s in addition to the popular Boeings and DCs/MDs) or L1011s and Dc10s.
Today a lot of airlines have A330/A340 and 777 fleets or A320 and 737s but as I said I am more interested in classic fleets. Even Dc 7s and L1049s in one fleet are interesting for me to know.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
scorpy
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:04 pm

PA bought both the DC8 and 707 and operated them side by side before getting rid of the DC8's.
 
nzrich
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:14 pm

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 2):
The A320 was an ideal replacement for the A320 in size and range.

Well that goes without saying the A320 could replace a A320 im assuming you must be meaning the A320 replacing another type of aircraft !!!
"Pride of the pacific"
 
vc10
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:56 pm

Well BOAC operated Comet and B707 at the same time and went on to operate VC-10 and B707 at the same time
Going back a bit more BOAC operated DC-7 and the Bristol Britannia at same time

BEA operated BC-3 and Vickers Vikings at the same time

British airways operated BAC-11 and B737 at the same time

littlevc10  Wink
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:56 pm

Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
Also I would like to know airlines that had Dc 9s and 737-200s and 737 classics and MD 80s.

CO operated all of them at one time under the CO livery......DC9's B732's, B733's, B735's and MD80's during the 1990's.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
columba
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:08 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 8):
CO operated all of them at one time under the CO livery......DC9's B732's, B733's, B735's and MD80's during the 1990's.

Thanks never was aware that CO flew MD 80s and Dc 9s.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
OceansWorld
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:26 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 9):
Thanks never was aware that CO flew MD 80s and Dc 9s.

Yes, CO has operated both DC-9s and MD-80s alongside from the mid-1980s. The DC-9s were those inherited from the buy out by Texas International. The MD-80s were aircraft ordered by Texas Air Corp. for its subsidiaries, COntinental and New York Air, plus some second hand aircraft, like those coming from Frontier.
 
trex8
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:52 pm

CI was one of the earliest Asian 767 customers but still took A300s in the early 80s.
 
columba
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:55 pm

Quoting VC10 (Reply 7):
BOAC operated DC-7 and the Bristol Britannia at same time

Were the DC 7 and the Britannia really competitors. I thought the Britania had Turbo Props and was one generation ahead of the piston powered Connies and Dc 7s and was more of Lockheed Electra competitioner or of the Eastern counterpart IL 18.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
vc10
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 12):
Were the DC 7 and the Britannia really competitors. I thought the Britania had Turbo Props and was one generation ahead of the piston powered Connies and Dc 7s and was more of Lockheed Electra competitioner or of the Eastern counterpart IL 18.

In the 1950's the big challenge for American / European airlines was to have an airliner that could fly the Atlantic non stop both ways. This was the aim of the Britannia , and would have competed here with the Connies and the DC-7 series.

Now BOAC had two requirements , one was for an aircraft for shorter routes on what was called the empire routes
The other was for an aircraft to fly London/ New York non stop both ways.

The Britannia series met this requirement with the 100 series for the shorter routes and the 300 series for the Atlantic routes, however due to engine problems the series was delayed and so was too late to really challenge any other design.

DC-7 Max tow-------143,000 lbs Britannia 300 series max tow---------185,000lbs
Max range----4605/5635 miles Max range------4268 miles

The Lockheed Electra was initially designed for medium haul routes I think you will find with a

MAX tow of -----116,000 lbs

which makes it a smaller airliner than even the Britannia 100 series where the max TOW was 155,000 lbs

You are correct in saying that the Britannia was a leap ahead of the big recips in design and if the engines had not had their icing problems plus others then it probably would have been the challenge to the big recips that it was supposed to be. BOAC was forced to buy DC-7C in the end because the Britannia was so delayed.

However post WW2 British aviation was dogged with "might have beens" .

Please before people start commenting on the stats, they are just average figures for comparison

littlevc-10
 
srbmod
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:20 am

732 & DC-9: DL, FL, CO, Midway (the original one)
737 Classics & MD-80 family: AA, DL, US Airways, AS

Eastern operated the DC-8 and the 720.
Delta operated the DC-8 and the CV-880
TWA operated the 707 and the CV-880
American operated the 707, the 720 and the CV-990.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:28 am

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 10):
The DC-9s were those inherited from the buy out by Texas International.

CO was flying the DC-9 before the Texas Air Corp takeover.

http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...truecount=false&engine_version=6.0

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 10):
The MD-80s were aircraft ordered by Texas Air Corp. for its subsidiaries, COntinental and New York Air, plus some second hand aircraft, like those coming from Frontier.

NY had two MD80's from AirCal.

At one point NY flew DC-9-30, DC-9-80, and 737-3TO's.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
thering
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:31 am

RG operated 707 and DC-8s
SAA A320s and 738s
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OceansWorld
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:46 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 15):
CO was flying the DC-9 before the Texas Air Corp takeover.

This is right, but at the time CO used these 19 brand new delivered DC-9-15RCs, they weren't operating the B732s/733s and MD-80s at the same time. In fact, they withdrew their original DC-9s at around the mid-'70s, while the TI merger occured some seven years later.

http://www.geocities.com/Aeromoe/fleets/co.html

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 15):
NY had two MD80's from AirCal.

That was three, plus one leased Jet America bird.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 15):
At one point NY flew DC-9-30, DC-9-80, and 737-3TO's.

http://www.geocities.com/Aeromoe/fleets/ny.html

[Edited 2007-07-30 21:48:32]
 
DIA
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:48 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 8):
CO operated all of them at one time under the CO livery......DC9's B732's, B733's, B735's and MD80's during the 1990's.

Don't forget the 731s and the 721s.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
OceansWorld
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:02 am

And BTW, we shouldn't forget that American operated both B707s and CV990s at the same time, TW had CV880s and B707s, Eastern DC-8s and B720s as did UA, while DL had CV880s and DC-8s.

In Europe, KL has had Convair jets alongside DC-8s, just as Swissair and Scandinavian. During one year LH leased a DC-8-51 which was in fact the very first DC-8 off the production line.


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[Edited 2007-07-30 22:28:21]
 
UnitedTristar
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:34 am

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 6):
im assuming you must be meaning the A320 replacing another type of aircraft !!!

yes I meant the 727

-m

 airplane 
 
Viscount724
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:34 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 12):
Quoting VC10 (Reply 7):
BOAC operated DC-7 and the Bristol Britannia at same time


Were the DC 7 and the Britannia really competitors. I thought the Britania had Turbo Props and was one generation ahead of the piston powered Connies and DC 7s and was more of Lockheed Electra competitioner or of the Eastern counterpart IL 18.

The closest British competitor to the Electra was the somewhat larger Vickers Vanguard, which was too late to generate more than 43 orders by only 2 carriers: AC (23) and British European Airways (20). It's the only aircraft type where I've flown on one operated by every original customer! AC's were much more comfortable than BEAs as AC had roomy 5-abreast seating in economy class, vs 6-abreast on BEA.


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Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 19):
And BTW, we shouldn't forget that American operated both B707s and CV990s at the same time

AA also operated 25 720s and 720Bs (the early non-turbofan 720s were later converted to 720Bs).
 
N1120A
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:39 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 12):

Were the DC 7 and the Britannia really competitors. I thought the Britania had Turbo Props and was one generation ahead of the piston powered Connies and Dc 7s and was more of Lockheed Electra competitioner or of the Eastern counterpart IL 18.

I think you have to look more to the intended mission than the motive power, particularly considering the times. The Connies and DC-7s competed well with the Brittania, which is really what matters.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
OceansWorld
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:46 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
also operated 25 720s and 720Bs (the early non-turbofan 720s were later converted to 720Bs).

That's right, but I just went ahead with one type from each manufacturers just to show how it was then.

Quoting Thering (Reply 16):
RG operated 707 and DC-8s

They have even operated a few CV990s.
 
srbmod
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:08 am

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 19):
And BTW, we shouldn't forget that American operated both B707s and CV990s at the same time, TW had CV880s and B707s, Eastern DC-8s and B720s as did UA, while DL had CV880s and DC-8s.

Covered already:

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 14):
Eastern operated the DC-8 and the 720.
Delta operated the DC-8 and the CV-880
TWA operated the 707 and the CV-880
American operated the 707, the 720 and the CV-990.
 
N1120A
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:13 am

United operated the DC-8 and the 720, which arguably competed. They also operated the ex-Pan Am L1011s alongside their own DC-10s, and flew the Caravelle alongside the 737.

EasyJet still operates the A319 and 737-700 in the same fleet.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
aa757first
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:32 am

US Airways would be the king of this. In 2000, they were operating the 737/MD-80/A32X, DC-9/F100, 727/757, 757/A321 and 767/A330 in the late 1990s and early 2000s.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:44 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
and flew the Caravelle alongside the 737.

Wasn't this just during the period they were phasing out the Caravelle in favour of the 737?
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
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LTU932
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:52 am

Quoting Columba (Thread starter):
I know BA did at one point as well as Pan Am.

I believe UA at one point also use the L-1011 alongside the DC-10. They were leased from PA. And IIRC, PA's DC-10s came all from the merger with National (correct me if I'm wrong though).
 
Viscount724
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:10 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 28):
I believe UA at one point also use the L-1011 alongside the DC-10. They were leased from PA.

As mentioned in Reply 3, UA acquired 6 of PA's L1011-500s as part of their purchase of PA's Pacific routes in 1986. UA only kept them a couple of years. They were sold to DL in 1988/89.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 28):
And IIRC, PA's DC-10s came all from the merger with National (correct me if I'm wrong though).

Correct, 11 DC-10-10s and 5 DC-10-30s. PA sold them fairly quickly too. All were gone by 1984 except one in early 1985.
 
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AA777223
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:41 pm

CX flies the A340 and 777 side by side, as do Emirates, SQ, and others.
A318/19/20/21, A300, A332/3, A343/6, A388, L1011, DC-9, DC-10, MD-11, MD-80, B722, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9, B743/4/4M, B752/3, B762/3/4, B772/E/W, B788/9, F-100, CRJ-200/700/900, ERJ-135/145/175, DH-8, ATR-72, DO-328, BAE-146
 
thering
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:57 pm

Some more.

ANA: 737-700 and A320-200 (almost the same size ok)

Korean and Asiana: A330-300 and 777-200
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TZTriStar500
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:15 pm

TZ operates both the L-1011-500 and DC10-30 along side each other today, but also operated the L-1011-50/-100 and DC10-10/-40 together in the 80's.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:21 pm

Delta - MD-90 and 737-800, although Boeing and McDonnell Douglas merged in 1997. The MD-90 was originally supposed to be Delta's 727 replacement, but with its reliabilty issues and dissapointing performance, the order was cancelled in favor of the 737-800.

Also, AA currently operates both the 767 and the A300, although they are used on completely different missions. The A300s are used on high density leisure routes (mainly to the Carribbean), which are typically low-yield. The 767s are used on transatlantic routes, which are higher-yielding than the routes that the A300 serve. The A300s will be eliminated as their leases expire, and will likely be replaced by 787s.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
FlySSC
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:02 am

During the 60s and 70s, MEA (Middle East Airlines/Air Liban) operated a large fleet of B707 & B720. They were the backbone of Mea's fleet, but they operated also up to 6 Convair 990A, and even a VC10, leased from Ghana Airways. This aircraft was destroyed by Israeli bombs at BEY in 1968.
The Convair 990A were replaced by additional B720 in 1972.


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thering
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RE: Airlines That Operated Competing Aircraft

Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:12 am

RG used to operate 777-200ER and MD-11, if you don't consider the Boeing & MDD merge.
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