bjornstrom
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A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:47 am

Airbus A380 approved to operate on 45m runways
31 July 2007

Airbus’ A380 has received approval from both the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) and the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to be operated on runways with a width of 45 metres (150 feet) or more. Most of the world airports have 45m runways as standard width.

"This aircraft has been shown to be safely controllable and to be compliant with applicable airworthiness requirements when operating on runways with a width of 45 meters (150 feet) or more", stated James J. Ballough, FAA Director Flight Standards Service in an official correspondence to Airbus, dated July 19, 2007.

This approval is yet another great achievement for the A380 Programme and the result of a unique operational evaluation including airport compatibility checks, route proving campaigns and dedicated flight-testing together with the Authorities.

http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre..._31_a380_approved_45m_runways.html



ICAO recommends the new aircraft be provided with 60m-wide runways, and some airports at which many A380 movements will take place are carrying out widening work to be compliant.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ate-on-standard-width-runways.html

[Edited 2007-07-31 18:50:20]
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ikramerica
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:50 am

Has anyone actually widened the runway to accommodate the A380? I was under the impression that the 45m was not the issue, but the turning radius and the taxiway separation.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
Has anyone actually widened the runway to accommodate the A380? I was under the impression that the 45m was not the issue, but the turning radius and the taxiway separation.

This was my impression as well; my understanding is that the biggest problem is gates that will accommodate the beast.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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Stitch
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:06 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
Has anyone actually widened the runway to accommodate the A380? I was under the impression that the 45m was not the issue, but the turning radius and the taxiway separation.

I think it was more an issue of things on the edges of the runways that could be within reach of the A388's wings or outboard engines that needed to be moved/checked.
 
andessmf
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:19 am

FOD could be an issue if the engines hang out a little too far.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:30 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 4):
FOD could be an issue if the engines hang out a little too far.

That's why God painted centerlines (to quote one of my flight instructors); if they follow them 45M should protect the engines.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Boogyjay
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:16 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 5):
That's why God painted centerlines

This is a good one  laughing  ... simple but effective.

Anyway, this is again a good news for Airbus and the A380, congratulations to the Airbusmen !
It removes one more inconvenient the a/c had and we won't hear "... and it can't even land on a standard runway... " again.

And it suddenly opens a whole lot of A380-capable airports, because the taxiway separations and terminal facilities are only recommendations, whereas the runway width was regulatory. Am I right ?

So yes, it's better to have bigger runway separations and 2 or 3 jetbridge gates but even if an airport does not have them, the A380 is still ALLOWED to fly there... Look at all the place the B747 flies, even until recently SXM didn't have a decent terminal.
 
ikramerica
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:26 am

Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 6):
Anyway, this is again a good news for Airbus and the A380, congratulations to the Airbusmen !
It removes one more inconvenient the a/c had and we won't hear "... and it can't even land on a standard runway... " again.

No it doesn't. It's a red herring announcement.

It can't just "land on normal runways" if those runways don't have proper separation or if they have insufficient taxiway turning radius. That's the whole point. But the airports that it was planned to go to have mostly upgraded to fit the jet, or will be finished shortly. LAX, for example moved a runway, but still hasn't finished the center taxiway. But at least the spacing is there, and the airport can now (or soon can) handle 3 A380s at main gates (1 at T2, 2 at TBIT) as well as 3 at remote stands (IIRC).

And many airports didn't need upgrades at all.

The A380 was designed with only 2 reverse thrusters to comply with the 45m runway from the start. Is it actually an accomplishment that should be applauded when a plane does what it was designed to do? Is that what the A380 program has come to, that it is remarkable that it does the things it is supposed to do? Honestly?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
hb88
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:27 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 2):
This was my impression as well; my understanding is that the biggest problem is gates that will accommodate the beast.

The 380 fits inside an 80 by 80m box and doesn't occupy a significantly larger footprint than the 747. Gate dimensions have never been much of an issue AFAIK.
 
Boogyjay
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
The A380 was designed with only 2 reverse thrusters to comply with the 45m runway from the start. Is it actually an accomplishment that should be applauded when a plane does what it was designed to do? Is that what the A380 program has come to, that it is remarkable that it does the things it is supposed to do? Honestly?

Stop the sarcasm.  Yeah sure Yes it is an "accomplishment that should be applauded", it is an event for the program (maybe not a milestone, though I don't really know the extent of the 'milestone' definition).

When IAD787 provides us with information (btw great infos) on the shipment of ship #3 or whichever fuselage section to Everett, it's an event in the 787 program and some (inc. myself) enjoy it and inherently congratulate Boeing...

So keep your bad mood (  Angry ) for yourself and let us enjoy good aviation news...  Smile

P.S : I'd be more than happy to bring you out for some drinks and enjoy life should you come to Paris...
 
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SEPilot
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 6):
And it suddenly opens a whole lot of A380-capable airports, because the taxiway separations and terminal facilities are only recommendations,

They'll be more than recommendations when two of them shake hands (read wingtips) while passing....

Quoting HB88 (Reply 8):
The 380 fits inside an 80 by 80m box and doesn't occupy a significantly larger footprint than the 747. Gate dimensions have never been much of an issue AFAIK.

Doesn't the A380 require double level ramps? If not, why all the discussion of gates at LHR Terminal 5 being A380 capable?
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Boogyjay
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 10):
They'll be more than recommendations when two of them shake hands (read wingtips) while passing....

It has nothing to do with the A380, it depends upon the ground controllers ability to cope with aircraft, be it an A380 or a ERJ.
Several times a year aircraft do 'shake hands' as you say, and they aren't all A380s.
Ground controllers will only need to learn to be a tidbit more careful when they'll receive the beast, that's all.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 10):
Doesn't the A380 require double level ramps?

Again, it's not a requirement, it's a recommendation. The A380 has 2 sets of wide stairs that people can use to board the U/D, should the jetways not reach the U/D or should the a/c being planed/deplaned at a remote stand.
People do it everyday in B747s...
 
PADSpot
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:07 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
I was under the impression that the 45m was not the issue, but the turning radius and the taxiway separation.

It is just the turning radius and the general tightness of most 23m taxiways. Taxiway separation is the same issue as gate space. If it complies with the 80m box and two B744s can pass each other it won't be a problem either. There might be a problem with the load-bearing strength of taxiway bridges though, due to weight. The required load-bearing strength of the taxiway or runway itself is less as with other airplanes if I recall correctly.

Quoting HB88 (Reply 8):
Gate dimensions have never been much of an issue AFAIK.

The real problem is gate capacity. Boarding bridges, waiting areas etc ...
 
Gemuser
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:48 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
Has anyone actually widened the runway to accommodate the A380? I was under the impression that the 45m was not the issue, but the turning radius and the taxiway separation.

YES. Both MEL & AKL, to name two have done so. SYD on the other hand has not, AFAIK, but has eased some taxiways and is constructing a number of double decker gates.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
The A380 was designed with only 2 reverse thrusters to comply with the 45m runway from the start. Is it actually an accomplishment that should be applauded when a plane does what it was designed to do?

The point is it IS a milestone in the project, a very important one, just as important as the rejected takeoff tests. Because if AB didn't get this certification the A380 would not be CERTIFIED to use any runway a B744 can, which it now is. I would call that a milestone in the project!

Taxiways & terminals AFAIK are NOT certified. So the A380 is NOW certified to use any airport that the B744 is certified to use. Taxiways & terminal are NOT within that statement. One would of course expect common sense to apply and an airline wishing to use an A380 to a specific airport will work out a feasable, but not certified, solution with that airport. Something similar happen when PA flew its first B741s into SYD, only certain turnoffs, taxiways and terminal gates could be used until upgrades were done.

Gemuser
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navymmw
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:42 pm

hmmm, I got to admit, im starting to like the A380 more and more. Look I'am a Boeing fan but I have to say congrats to Airbus, the A380 will be a nice plane.
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:37 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 5):
That's why God painted centerlines (to quote one of my flight instructors); if they follow them 45M should protect the engines.

The span from engine 1 to engine 4 is about 50 meters. They will overhang no matter what.


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EI321
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:59 pm

How many of the 70 odd A380 airports have 60m runways? Even DUB is building a 60m wide runway in a few years.
 
Q330
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:42 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 13):
SYD on the other hand has not

They actually have... to some extent. They added to the paved area along the edges, though the usable runway surface was unchanged. I think that in the case of the A380 this is the main issue anyway, since it's the outboard engines that are a concern, not the aircraft's ability to actually fit on the runway.

-Q
Long live the A330!
 
SKA380
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:17 pm

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 20):
NOTE: I have registerd in the Airbus Press Room, see following estract. I therefore would expect an answer of my very short anf precise question !!

What is the short and precise question??

Leif
 
baroque
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:43 pm

Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 6):
And it suddenly opens a whole lot of A380-capable airports, because the taxiway separations and terminal facilities are only recommendations, whereas the runway width was regulatory. Am I right ?

That seems to be the case BJ. It does begin to appear as if the monster will appear to become more and more "normal" over and above it becoming more common.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
Is that what the A380 program has come to, that it is remarkable that it does the things it is supposed to do?

Not like your usual sunny self Ikra? I see what you mean, but it is a tough standard against which to judge all programs. By this standard a program is only worthy of praise if the produce does something (good, presumably) that they were not designed to do. Were you really arguing that?
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 16):
How many of the 70 odd A380 airports have 60m runways? Even DUB is building a 60m wide runway in a few years.

DFW has both 60m (200') and 45m (150') wide runways. But, the issue with the A-380 operating on a 45m wide runway is the runway must have 10.5m (35') wide shoulders on each side. The 60m wide runways can have the standard 7.5m (25') wide shoulders on each side.

The standard 23m (75') wide taxiways are still an issue here, even with their 10.5m wide shoulders. We still also have to add fillets to each intersection of 75' and 75' or 75' and 100' (33m) wide taxiways.

Here at DFW, any A-380 operation will be restricted to stay on and use 60m wide runways and 33m wide taxiways (after we install the fillets at the 33m to 33m wide taxiway intersections).
 
EA772LR
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:41 am

Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 9):
P.S : I'd be more than happy to bring you out for some drinks and enjoy life should you come to Paris...

Hell, I'll take you up on the offer  goodvibes  . I've never been to Paris. My girlfriend has and fell in love with it. Now if AF can bring one of their 380's (when they receive them) to BNA, i'll be obliged to take you up on the offer!  biggrin 

As for the 380 news, congrats to the program. One question tho, if they didn't put thrust reversers on the outboard engines because of the debris blown, aren't operators and airports alike worried about sucking up debris on takeoff. How far of the runway are the outboard engines???
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
Boogyjay
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 21):
I'll take you up on the offer

No prob !  Smile

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 21):
My girlfriend has and fell in love with it.

Ooops ! Seeing where you're from, I think I might have dated your girlfriend sorry, Big grin and indeed she liked Paris, as much as myself ...

(Don't worry, just kidding...  Wink )

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 21):
aren't operators and airports alike worried about sucking up debris on takeoff.

I'd guess the outboard engines are high enough not to suck rabbits or standing objects on take off. The problem with the thrust reversers is that you blow debris in the air (as opposed to standing) in front of the engine intake.

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Mir
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:26 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 10):
Doesn't the A380 require double level ramps?

No. It doesn't even require a jetway - you can board it with one set of airstairs, just like any other plane. Double-level ramps do, however, expedite and simplify the process, so a lot of airports are fitting them. But they don't have to.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
EA772LR
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:14 am

Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 22):
Ooops ! Seeing where you're from, I think I might have dated your girlfriend sorry, Big grin and indeed she liked Paris, as much as myself ...

(Don't worry, just kidding... Wink )

Haha  Big grin Well now it's my turn to go to Paris. I really want to get over there.

Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 22):
I'd guess the outboard engines are high enough not to suck rabbits or standing objects on take off. The problem with the thrust reversers is that you blow debris in the air (as opposed to standing) in front of the engine intake.

Makes sense. Actually as soon as I posted that, I realized that it wouldn't be a big problem on takeoffs like it would with reversers. On a side note, how do I post pictures each of my posts like you have and many others on here do??
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
cygnuschicago
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:51 am

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 21):
One question tho, if they didn't put thrust reversers on the outboard engines because of the debris blown

The lack of thrust reversers is not due to the dust. Airbus actually designed the A380 to be operated without any thrust reversers (I guess because they figured it is lighter, and less prone to mechanical breakdowns without them). The FAA and I think EASA demanded that they put the thrust reversers in regardless of the design parameters, so Airbus just put them on the inboard engines.
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
SailorOrion
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:47 pm

About the upper level airbridges.

Some people apparently haven't read the Airbus manuals thoroughly. The problem is not having two passenger bridges to the main deck. As can been seen from the manuals, using three bridges (M2L, M1L, U1L) isn't really faster in the boarding/deboarding process than using two doors (M1L, M2L). Both scenarios use 14 minutes for deboarding and 22 minutes (+4) for boarding. However, the only issue with "main deck servicing" is catering. If you don't connect the catering trucks to the upper deck, you need to move all the trolleys (old ones out, new ones in) from the upper deck galleys to the elevators, then down, then out, and then the same ordeal for moving the new ones in. In this scenario, the upper galley servicing basically takes 90 minutes, passenger boarding is a non-issue.

SailorOrion
 
helvknight
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:32 pm

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 26):
However, the only issue with "main deck servicing" is catering. If you don't connect the catering trucks to the upper deck, you need to move all the trolleys (old ones out, new ones in) from the upper deck galleys to the elevators, then down, then out, and then the same ordeal for moving the new ones in. In this scenario, the upper galley servicing basically takes 90 minutes, passenger boarding is a non-issue.

And of course this would have nothing to do with the bridges. The catering trucks would need to have the reach to get to the upper deck, however.

Any airport which would be expecting the A380 would surely invest in the trucks, tugs, infrastructure to deal with the beastie; it would only be diversion airports that wouldn't and would an A380 be catered (as opposed to fueled) at a diversion airport?
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member - Groucho Marx
 
sk736
Posts: 547
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:40 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
Is it actually an accomplishment that should be applauded when a plane does what it was designed to do?

Yes it is, and your comment sounds like sour grapes. I look forward to hearing lots of praise for the 787 when it is also proven to do the things it is designed to do.
 
baroque
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:11 pm

Quoting Helvknight (Reply 27):
And of course this would have nothing to do with the bridges. The catering trucks would need to have the reach to get to the upper deck, however.

Can the internal lifts shift material from level 2 to the top floor?
 
SailorOrion
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 5:56 pm

RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:20 pm

Yes, they can move the trolleys, but afaik only one at a time. If you have to move 50 trolleys down and 50 trolleys up, it's going to take a while ...

SailorOrion
 
ncelhr
Posts: 252
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:10 pm

The A380 can operate from 45m runways, but most airports with regular A380 traffic will want to widen their runway to close to 60m. One-off operation from time to time wouldn't really matter but if you have several A380 flights a day, the likelyhood that your grass/dirt edges will ultimately be blown away increases.

In this business it's all about increasing safety. You can't take chances...
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:35 pm

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 30):
Yes, they can move the trolleys, but afaik only one at a time. If you have to move 50 trolleys down and 50 trolleys up, it's going to take a while ...

Thanks SO, possible but more time. Obviously better to use the appropriate air-bridges and trucks, but if needs must, the devil could drive!
 
Viscount724
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 31):
The A380 can operate from 45m runways, but most airports with regular A380 traffic will want to widen their runway to close to 60m.

I can't recall any plans by LHR to widen its runways from the current 45m (09R/27L) and 50m (09L/27R).
 
Glareskin
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RE: A380 Now Compliant To 45m Runways

Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 15):
The span from engine 1 to engine 4 is about 50 meters. They will overhang no matter what.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1080181/M/

What a good illustration! Now I also understand why separation was such a big deal. Not because of wake turbulence but because of wake debris.......
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...

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