HB-IWC
Topic Author
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KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:20 pm

KLM and Northwest will gradually increase their offerings on the busy Amsterdam to New York route with the addition of one extra flight to JFK and EWR each. The increase will take place in phases and will start with the opening of a third daily JFK rotation with the onset of the winter schedule. This flight will be operated by NW with B752. Starting summer 2008, the airlines will then further increase frequencies with the addition of a second daily EWR rotation, also operated by NW's B752. As such, the entire frequency increase will come on account of NW.

Here are the details:


AMS EWR

Current flight:

now until 02DEC KL657/658 daily with A332
03DEC-05JAN KL657/658 daily with MD11
06JAN-15MAR NW063/064 daily with A333
16MAR-29MAR KL657/658 daily with MD11
from 30MAR NW063/064 daily with B752

NW is temporarily taking over the AMS EWR route from KL during the winter schedule because of scheduled maintenance operations with the KLM widebody fleet. Between 06 January and 15 March, NW will not operate its thirds daily AMS MSP rotation and that equipment will be dedicated to the AMS EWR route. The freed up MD11 capacity will move to the AMS IAD route, where the MD11 will replace the B772. The B772 will subsequently replace the B744 on the AMS YYZ route, so as to free up B744 capacity for scheduled D checks.

Additional flight:

from 08APR NW065/066 daily with B752


AMS JFK

Current flight:

now until 13OCT KL641/642 daily with A332
14OCT-27OCT KL641/642 daily with B772
28OCT-29MAR KL641/642 daily with A332
30MAR-03MAY KL641/642 daily with MD11
from 04MAY KL641/642 daily with A332

now until 29MAR KL643/644 daily with B772/B74E/B744
from 30MAR KL643/644 daily with B772/B77W/B74E

Additional flight:

28OCT-29MAR NW061/062 daily with B752
from 30MAR KL645/646 daily with A332


After all the above mentioned increase will have taken place, KLM and Northwest will, next summer operate 5 daily New York rotations from their AMS hub. These flights will be scheduled in each of KLM's longhaul departure banks. Northwest will be uniquely responsible for the EWR station, whereas KLM will take care of the JFK flights. Here are the exact schedules for next summer:

KL645 AMS JFK 0815 1030 daily A332
KL646 JFK AMS 1620 0600

NW063 AMS EWR 1015 1240 daily B752
NW064 EWR AMS 1645 0610

KL641 AMS JFK 1330 1545 daily A332
KL642 JFK AMS 1740 0720

NW065 AMS EWR 1530 1755 daily B752
NW066 EWR AMS 2015 0940

KL643 AMS JFK 1820 2015 daily EQV (B74E/B772/B77W)
KL644 JFK AMS 2210 1115
 
premobrimo
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:56 pm

Doesn't NW have extra 330s laying around? They are using some of them domestically in the past couple weeks. They are also getting another 330 delivered tomorrow, Aug. 2. So does NW really have to cut back the MSP-AMS from 3 to 2 daily?
Now You're Flying Smart.
 
flyyul
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:04 pm

HB-IWC,

What is happening with Toronto? I know its far out, but the res sked for 2008 does not show the KL695/696 extra 5 weekly flights.
 
Jano
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:10 pm

Quoting PremoBrimo (Reply 1):
So does NW really have to cut back the MSP-AMS from 3 to 2 daily?

I believe they do so every winter when MSP-AMS goes to 2x daily and DTW-AMS goes to 3x daily. It seems the spare A333s will be used on EWR-AMS and SEA-HNL this winter.
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PanAm747
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:30 pm

A couple of questions:

1) I realize this is only one flight, but does NW have the ability to increase any schedule right now?

2) NW and CO might be "partners" in SkyTeam, but this strikes me as NW invading CO's EWR turf. Is CO okay with this? How are they responding?

3) Which side of the Atlantic is NW targetting with these new flights - Europe or North America? And do these flights have any connecting pax or are they solely O&D?

I'd like to think NW has done their homework on this, and they probably have, but I just can't get the image of empty NW planes flying DFW-NYC...
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
Flighty
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting Jano (Reply 3):
SEA-HNL

!

On A330? Oh. That is interesting.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:01 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
Is CO okay with this?

....no, but why would NW care? They're still CO's competitor.
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Jano
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:07 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 5):
!

On A330? Oh. That is interesting.

NW 219/220. Looks like Nov 4. It's loaded in the schedule already.
The Widget Air Line :)
 
bobnwa
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
3) Which side of the Atlantic is NW targetting with these new flights - Europe or North America? And do these flights have any connecting pax or are they solely O&D?

I'd like to think NW has done their homework on this, and they probably have,

Everything NWA does trans-atlantic is done jointly with KL including research, homework forecasts etc. The flights have connecting traffic at a major hub-AMS, which supplies over 50% of the traffic.

I don't think NW/KL considered CO's feelings when making the decision.
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:34 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
2) NW and CO might be "partners" in SkyTeam, but this strikes me as NW invading CO's EWR turf. Is CO okay with this? How are they responding?

NWA doesn't operate to appease Continental Airlines. They run an airline to make money and with the NWA/KLM alliance they are one in the same across the Atlantic. While we are on the subject, I would argue that the new routes of Delta are going more and more in the face of Continental than a EWR-AMS flight would add. In addition remember that CO can place their code on the NWA service ex EWR to AMS. It is a win-win situation..

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
3) Which side of the Atlantic is NW targetting with these new flights - Europe or North America? And do these flights have any connecting pax or are they solely O&D?

Knowing the New York City market, I would definitely say the European side with the wealth of connections at Amsterdam, and the New York metro areas wealth of O/D to Europe..

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
I'd like to think NW has done their homework on this, and they probably have, but I just can't get the image of empty NW planes flying DFW-NYC...

NWA is in business to make money.. They research their routes before starting them.. They are not going to dedicate a A319 on a route that has no proven revenue potential..

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
Flighty
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 9):

NWA is in business to make money.. They research their routes before starting them.. They are not going to dedicate a A319 on a route that has no proven revenue potential..

NW does have a history of adding and then removing ridiculous routes just to battle and hurt smaller competitors. But I agree with you here. The DFW-LGA has money making potential, being only 2 legacies in that market. It's a very thick market (even moreso than MSP) that they will both split handsomely.
 
sk601
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:51 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 9):
In addition remember that CO can place their code on the NWA service ex EWR to AMS. It is a win-win situation..

NW and CO (or DL) cannot codeshare on TATL flights, only on domestic flights. Only KL and NW are allowed to codeshare on TATL routes between EUR and USA*. IIRC KL can't even codeshare on AF flights from France to the USA.

The only real increase is on the AMS-JFK routes, since that goes from 2x daily to 3x daily. OK, EWR increase from 1 daily to 2 daily, but with a smaller aircraft. Currently it's operated with a KL A330 with 251 seats (30/221), which will become 320 seats, just 69 seats more (NW B757 = 16/144 x2). The real benefit for the passenger is more choice in departure/arrival time.

* AF/DL, LH/UA, SK/UA etc also have codeshare flights between EUR/USA, but KL is allowed to codeshare on any NW departing from/to EUR, not just AMS, whereas KL is not allowed to codeshare on EUR/USA flights from DL/CO etc.

[Edited 2007-08-01 17:55:53]
 
HB-IWC
Topic Author
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:45 am

Quoting PremoBrimo (Reply 1):
What is happening with Toronto? I know its far out, but the res sked for 2008 does not show the KL695/696 extra 5 weekly flights.

It remains unclear whether the seasonal additions to YYZ (KL695/696) and LAX (KL603/604) will return next summer, although it's fairly certain that YYZ will. The early morning LAX departure hasn't been a stellar performer except for the current peak season, so I'm not sure whether KL will bring it back and if so whether it will be with the same schedule. The flight may well leave AMS a bit later in the morning to allow for better connectivity.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:31 am

Quoting PremoBrimo (Reply 1):
Doesn't NW have extra 330s laying around? They are using some of them domestically in the past couple weeks. They are also getting another 330 delivered tomorrow, Aug. 2. So does NW really have to cut back the MSP-AMS from 3 to 2 daily?

In the short term they do have extra A330 capacity due to the new deliveries that are set to replace the remaining 742 flying in the Pacific in Aug/Sept. They have also gotten creative with scheduling by using A330's that would otherwise sit on the ground in DTW/MSP until their next TATL turn and shuffled them by flying out-and-back routes. Every night an A330-300 RON's in DTW & MSP for mx.

At the end of Oct, the 4th DTW-AMS A330-300 flight traditionally ends for the season -> this aircraft will then go to SEA-HNL. 1 of the 2 daily SEA-HNL flights will stay A330-300 indefinetely as it acts as a way to bridge A330-300 aircraft / A330 crews into the Pacific to operate the increased NRT/HNL A330-300 flying, as SEA acts as an A330 mx base.

At the end of Dec, the 3rd MSP-AMS A330-300 flight traditionally ends for the season -> this aircraft will then go to EWR-AMS.
 
boeing743
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:24 am

So bascially all of Airbus 330 would be going to west coast for the flights between SEA-HNL and to Asia out of LAX or SEA?? IF NW keep has that 330 coming so where would they put them on what routes?? Add new routes or use it for domestic flights??
 
burnsie28
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:34 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
2) NW and CO might be "partners" in SkyTeam, but this strikes me as NW invading CO's EWR turf. Is CO okay with this? How are they responding?

NW has operated EWR-AMS for years and years in the past. NW handles ground ops for KLM in the US.

Quoting SK601 (Reply 11):
Only KL and NW are allowed to codeshare on TATL routes between EUR and USA

Actually if you look NW and AF do have some codeshare flights such as the DTW-CDG flights.
 
PanAm747
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:03 pm

Quote:
....no, but why would NW care? They're still CO's competitor.

True, but they're both SkyTeam members. Business "partners" (and SkyTeam strikes me as being as warm and fuzzy as the Manson family!) generally don't muscle in on each other's main hubs.

Quote:
I don't think NW/KL considered CO's feelings when making the decision.

So I guess NW won't mind if CO decides to fly MSP-AMS or DTW-AMS.  rotfl 

Quote:
NWA is in business to make money.. They research their routes before starting them.. They are not going to dedicate a A319 on a route that has no proven revenue potential..

For NW's sake, I hope you're right...but as was pointed out, they've got their work cut out for them on this one. Time will tell.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
mel
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:18 pm

Tokyo-Saipan and Tokyo-Guam switch from 747-200 and 747-400........ to A330-300 soon. Any idea where that displaced 747-400 will go?
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bobnwa
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:47 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 16):
So I guess NW won't mind if CO decides to fly MSP-AMS or DTW-AMS.

CO would not decide to fly those routes as they would not have a hub at either end. NW does have a hub at one end of EWR-AMS that makes it profitable.
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:17 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 16):
True, but they're both SkyTeam members. Business "partners" (and SkyTeam strikes me as being as warm and fuzzy as the Manson family!) generally don't muscle in on each other's main hubs.

Just as the same way that Delta and Continental are playing a tit for tat game in the New York market?

Continental flies EWR-MAN, Delta starts JFK-MAN
Continental flies EWR-LGW, Delta starts JFK-LGW
Continental flies EWR-TXL, Delta starts JFK-TXL
Continental flies EWR-EDI, Delta announces JFK-EDI
Continental flies EWR-TLV, Delta announces JFK-TLV
Delta flies JFK-ATH, Continental starts EWR-ATH
Delta flies JFK-SVO, Continental shows renewed interest in EWR-DME
Delta starts JFK-BOM, Continental announces EWR-BOM

The list goes on and continues from here. None of the alliances are exactly warm and fuzzy, I would argue that if any alliance was warm and fuzzy it would be One World who's flights seem for the most part to compliment and enhance each others schedules.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:41 pm

Quoting Boeing743 (Reply 14):
IF NW keep has that 330 coming so where would they put them on what routes?? Add new routes or use it for domestic flights??

During this summer/fall schedule, all of the A330's are allocated. However, due to RON's & operational spares, they are able to run some domestic A330 flights on an ad-hoc basis in between Trans-Atlantic flights and/or scheduled maintenance.

With the traditional draw-down of TATL flying during the winter, and the last of the -300 deliveries, there will be available capacity from Jan-April. The EWR-AMS & SEA-HNL appear to take some of this, but there may still be an available aircraft or two. Of course, this also when they are able to catch up on maintenance.

Quoting MEL (Reply 17):
Tokyo-Saipan and Tokyo-Guam switch from 747-200 and 747-400........ to A330-300 soon. Any idea where that displaced 747-400 will go?

These were both 742 routes that are becoming A330-300 in Sept. In the TPAC beach market shuffle of A333, 742, & 744's, a 744 does get freed up. Not sure where its going though. Obviously if NWA was awarded the 2007 China flights, that is where that aircraft would go, but that is a very big unknown at this point.
 
NW748i
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 8):
I don't think NW/KL considered CO's feelings when making the decision.

Seems that nobody is Skyteam considers CO's feelings, especially when one considers the pending NW/KL/DL/AF anti-trust application... but it seems that CO manages well enough as is, so good for them. Certainly their quality of service beats NW/DL and their coverage of Europe at least seems to be the best among the US carriers. Further, their profitability, last I heard beat NW/DL...
Hail! to the victors valiant, Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes, Hail! Hail! to Michigan the leaders and best! Go Blue!
 
PanAm747
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:07 am

Quote:
Just as the same way that Delta and Continental are playing a tit for tat game in the New York market?



Quote:
Seems that nobody is Skyteam considers CO's feelings, especially when one considers the pending NW/KL/DL/AF anti-trust application... but it seems that CO manages well enough as is, so good for them. Certainly their quality of service beats NW/DL and their coverage of Europe at least seems to be the best among the US carriers. Further, their profitability, last I heard beat NW/DL...

 checkmark 

While I agree that there are enough O&D pax from the NYC metro area for a hub at both JFK and EWR, it does seem tit for tat.

A while back, I posted a thread asking why CO is in SkyTeam - it seems to be a very poor fit. Both DL and NW seem to ignore the fact that CO is in the alliance with them. I guess it's just me, but profitable or not, CO's contributions to SkyTeam always strike me as being taken for granted, like they are a junior member of the alliance.
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bobnwa
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:10 am

Quoting NW748i (Reply 22):
Further, their profitability, last I heard beat NW/DL...

Suggest you check your hearing

2nd quarter earnings announced by all legacy carriers

Net Profit
CO 228 million
DL 274 million
NW 273 million
US 263 million
AA 291 million
UA 274 million

CO is not joining in the anti-trust application because they chose not to.
 
NW748i
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:15 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 24):
Suggest you check your hearing

The attitude is not necessary. In fact, it just got you removed from my RR list. Most would agree that CO is, generally speaking, in better shape than NW... especially considering the ops problems and the effect they are having. In spite of that NW remains my preferred carrier.

Further, some say that CO wasn't invited, while others say that it chose not to. On their earnings call CO only offered that they are happy with the status quo--nothing explicit on the application.

[Edited 2007-08-02 17:19:01]
Hail! to the victors valiant, Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes, Hail! Hail! to Michigan the leaders and best! Go Blue!
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:53 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 23):
A while back, I posted a thread asking why CO is in SkyTeam - it seems to be a very poor fit. Both DL and NW seem to ignore the fact that CO is in the alliance with them. I guess it's just me, but profitable or not, CO's contributions to SkyTeam always strike me as being taken for granted, like they are a junior member of the alliance.

I would argue against that point, as each one brings a different element to the table. CO's obvious strength to Skyteam is the mega-O&D hub at EWR, and the vast Mexico/Central America route network out of IAH. NW needs CO more in this regard as they have virtually no presence south of the border other than a single DTW-MEX flight and a handful of Mexican beach markets. NW gives CO Asia, Canada, and a much larger presence in the Upper Midwest / Great Lakes region. DL - CO has a lot more overlap but there are regional strengths of each.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 24):
CO is not joining in the anti-trust application because they chose not to.

CO joining the application would arguable make it DOA. Adding CO to the mix, particularly with the EWR-CO / JFK-DL TATL powerhouse would probably raise a lot of red flags. Also probably cause AA to run crying to the regulators to not approve it.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 24):
2nd quarter earnings announced by all legacy carriers

Lets not start that pissing match......net profit $$ vs. profit margin vs. EPS......not really a relevant item to this discussion.
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: KL/NW To Reinforce AMS NYC To 5 Daily

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:58 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 23):
A while back, I posted a thread asking why CO is in SkyTeam - it seems to be a very poor fit. Both DL and NW seem to ignore the fact that CO is in the alliance with them. I guess it's just me, but profitable or not, CO's contributions to SkyTeam always strike me as being taken for granted, like they are a junior member of the alliance.

The use of Continental Airlines in SkyTeam is becoming few and far in between. Once there was a gap in service. IN the recent year Delta Air Lines has filled that gap. Now you are seeing Delta Air Lines take on Continental Airlines in more and more markets. You have in the end NW/KL, AF-KL, and DL/AF. Where does Continental Airlines fit into the equation. With the recent expansion of Delta Air Lines into more and more European routes from the JFK market they have in essence suffocated the presence of Continental Airlines in Sky Team. There are no unique destinations that Continental Airlines serves that cannot be reached from Delta, Air France, KLM, or Northwest. The unique cases being the few destinations that are unique to Continental Micronesia. As can be seen those destinations that are unique to Continental Micronesia serve a very insignificant measure to SkyTeam as a whole.

Quoting NW748i (Reply 22):
Seems that nobody is Skyteam considers CO's feelings, especially when one considers the pending NW/KL/DL/AF anti-trust application... but it seems that CO manages well enough as is, so good for them. Certainly their quality of service beats NW/DL and their coverage of Europe at least seems to be the best among the US carriers. Further, their profitability, last I heard beat NW/DL...

Who needs to consider Continental Airlines feelings? This isnt a child we are talking about. This is a group of airlines in an alliance. There is no room for feelings in this realm of business. Continental did not want to be part of the anti-trust, as they have chosen their stance and they must now stick with it. I would argue about Continental Airlines level of service beating Delta Air Lines or Northwest Airlines as far as the money making international routes go. The Continental Airlines coverage of Europe is dwarfed by the number of flights that Delta Air Lines serves on any given day to Europe. In addition with the stand alone attitude of Continental they are out in the cold as AF-KL has one of the most in-depth system of routes within the European Union.

By no means has Continental Airlines profit beat Northwest Airlines or Delta Air Lines, where did you hear that from? The profit margin of Delta and Northwest were near $50 million above that of Continental Airlines.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI

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