CactusOne
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How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:08 pm

I know UA 'loved' their 737 even though they're now in bed with Airbus for the 320/319, but how come they never took on the MD80/83/88/90? QQ and DL's MD90's were nice. The only reason why I ask is because their affiliate carriers seem to be flying the CRJ-700, and ordered the CRJ-900, which some would argue would've been the size of some of the smaller DC9's.

Just Curious... Any thoughts?  Smile
 
474218
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:19 pm

United was a lunch customer for the 737-200, so there was no reason to invest in two airframes that were designed for the same market.
 
hnl-jack
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:29 pm

I worked in EXO (World Headquarters) at the time and the story that circulated around the office was that the board had approved the DC-9, but that George Keck , fought the decision and eventually got enough votes to go with Boeing.
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:34 pm

They had a ton of 727s back in the 70s and 80s as well so they already had a lot of narrow bodies.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
clrd2go
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:50 pm

Didn't UA at one time have a couple MD80's in their fleet inherited from someone? I seem to recall seeing them but of course my recollection could be way off.




JIm
What a long strange trip it's been
 
AirframeAS
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:04 pm

Quoting Clrd2go (Reply 4):
Didn't UA at one time have a couple MD80's in their fleet inherited from someone?

I was going to ask the exact same thing. I remember seeing pics of them, they only had a very small fleet of them, IIRC. Can anyone verify this?
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
charlienorth
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:12 pm

Quoting Clrd2go (Reply 4):
Didn't UA at one time have a couple MD80's in their fleet inherited from someone? I seem to recall seeing them but of course my recollection could be way off.

Seems like when the original Frontier failed UAL had a "paper transfer" of a couple MD80's,they were never operated by UAL not too sure who they went to. As far as never getting DC9/MD80 as someone said earlier it would have made no sense as the 737-222's were the competitor to the DC9 so it would have made no sense to have two types with the same basic mission,and the 727 kind of kept the '80 out of the picture.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
AirframeAS
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:46 pm

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 6):

You may be right on that one. Not debating that. But I have seen pics of an '80 in UAL rainbow colors though....
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:50 pm

The best question is why didn't UA opt specifically for the MD-83, which was the best of it's class during the 1980's. Yes, UA had plenty of 727's, but so did AA and DL, which ordered Mad Dogs in massive amounts. I suspect part of the reason lies in UA's loyalty to Boeing. Until the A320 order, UA had not ordered anything besides Boeing since the DC-10. It's too bad, MD-80's would have looked great in the classic 70's/80's UA livery.

The DC-9 lost out to the 732 as mentioned and UA had already committed to the A320 by the time the MD-90 debuted.
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AA737-823
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:17 pm

I, too, have seen pics of MD-80s in United's old colors.
 
geg2rap
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:56 pm

keep in mind way back when UAL was Boeings Airlines (and P and W their engine)
 
ual777
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:38 pm

Quoting HNL-Jack (Reply 2):
George Keck , fought the decision and eventually got enough votes to go with Boeing.

Thank God for that! The Mad Dog's cockpit looks like a high school science-fair project.





 vomit 
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
milesrich
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:55 pm

When UA ordered the 737-222, foregoing the DC-9-30, the decision meant that they had to wait another year for jet aircraft to replace their DC-6 and Viscount fleets. At the time, they extolled the virtues of the 737 claiming that 30-40 percent of the parts were the same those in the 727 (this claim was made in the Mainliner Magazine article that announced the 737 order, and I believe they liked the idea of 6 abreast seating, vs the 5 across of the DC-9. United was a loyal Douglas customer and bought more DC-8's than any other airline. In retrospect, the decision probably was a poor one. United ordered and received 75 737-222's during 1968. They introduced the aircraft on April 28th with the daylight savings time schedule, and by Thanksgiving, every DC-6 and DC-6B was retired, except the three kept to serve Ely and Elko Nevada. A few Viscounts were operated until January or February of 1969. But withn six or seven years or so later, almost half the fleet had been sold off. The aircraft that were not sold early on were operated until they were all retired in the 90's. Although they never ordered any 737-200A's they received 25 of them from Frontier when they went under. Those aircraft were retired after 9/11/2001 along with the entire remaining 727-222A fleet. United probably kept their aircraft longer than most other carriers. Had they ordered the 9's, they would have been able to sell off the Sixes and Viscounts a year earlier, and would have received more money for them. Most of the Sixes went to Mars Aircraft and many were reposessed after Mars failed to pay, the rest being scrapped, at Tracy, CA and ONT. As late as 1974, there were a few airframes remaining at Tracy. And the Nine may have been more suited to serving many of United's smaller cities that lost mainline service soon after deregulation took effect in the 1979-1980.

[Edited 2007-08-02 08:56:08]

[Edited 2007-08-02 08:57:21]
 
flightopsguy
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:52 pm

I definitely remember flying from BAL to PIT in 1968 on a UA 732, and seeing an advertisement in the seat pocket touting the DC-9 Mainliner "coming soon". Wish I would have stuck that ad in my bag!

UA has not ever operated in their colors, or any colors, any of the MD-80 series. Some of the DC-8 photos in the 70's rainbow scheme could maybe be mistaken for a -9 or a -80 (showing just a small part of the aircraft), but no -9's.

HNL-Jack: are you still in the die-cast model airport hobby?
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bohica
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting Clrd2go (Reply 4):
Didn't UA at one time have a couple MD80's in their fleet inherited from someone?



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):
I remember seeing pics of them, they only had a very small fleet of them


Here it is.

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...earch/photo_search.php?id=00001440

 

[Edited 2007-08-02 15:15:00]
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:27 am

Another reason UA would probably have been better off with the DC-9 is because the DC-9 has always been flown with a two person crew, but UA was required to fly their 737s with a three person crew until the early 1980s. This significantly increased the 737's operating costs.
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:50 am

In case if anyone is interested, the original Frontier had 20 MD-80s in its fleet...5 -81s & 15 -82s. When United took over most of the routes & fleet from Frontier, the 737s were retained & the majority of the MD-80s went to Continental. But one MD-82 was held back by United, re-registered as N80UA, and probably repainted as well. This bird was on the UA's roster for 6 months only, in 1990. Perhaps UA was evaluating the aircraft for a possible order with Douglas then. Remember that was the time when AA, DL & TWA were building up their brand new Mad Dog fleets.
Regards.
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timz
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7):
But I have seen pics of an '80 in UAL rainbow colors



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
I, too, have seen pics of MD-80s in United's old colors.

If you can find them we'll be interested-- but I'll bet the search takes a while.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:13 am

Quoting Timz (Reply 17):
but I'll bet the search takes a while.

Youre righ't on that one. I saw it somewhere, I don't even remember where I saw it. It had the bare metal engine cowlings on the fuse. I think it was a D9-10? I honestly don't remember.
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Super98
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:29 am

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 11):

Compared to what? What airplanes designed back in 1978 didn't look like a "high school science project?"

I suppose you have never seen a Saudi MD-90 or the 717, or anything else with updated displays and avionics contemporaneous to your 777?

The airplane was regularly updated from the begining, even going back to when the -81s were basically DC-9-40s, to
the updates on the 87/88 with the Smiths indicating systems and new A/P glareshield control panel. Did you not like
the DFGCs? They oughta get some credit for being the first...

Just curious
 
Junction
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:48 am

If anyone can find a real pic of any type of DC9/M80 in full UA livery it would be golden. I can’t believe that until I see it.
I remember when NW and Republic merged it was really very strange to see NW livery on a DC9. Times have certainly changed.
 
MakeMinesLAX
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting Milesrich (Reply 12):
But withn six or seven years or so later, almost half the fleet had been sold off.

Are you certain about that? My 1985 JP Airline-Fleets book shows 49 737-222 still in operation out of the original 75.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7):
But I have seen pics of an '80 in UAL rainbow colors though....



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
I, too, have seen pics of MD-80s in United's old colors.



Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 16):
When United took over most of the routes & fleet from Frontier, the 737s were retained & the majority of the MD-80s went to Continental. But one MD-82 was held back by United, re-registered as N80UA, and probably repainted as well.

With all sincerity, I acknowledge that the several of you with the same recollection are probably likely to be correct, but I wanted to raise the possibility of a hybrid scheme, given the similarity between the UA and Frontier liveries:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.
View Large View Medium
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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.



View Large View Medium
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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.

 
skytony
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:40 am

I recall seeing a MDC publicity photo on ebay of a United MD-80 for auction a couple of months ago. Would this have been the photo mentioned?
Lower your expectations! You will always be pleasantly surprised!
 
access-air
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:41 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 9):
I, too, have seen pics of MD-80s in United's old colors.

Never saw nor heard of ANY of the Frontier MD-80s being painted in UAL colours....As far I have read they were leased back to Frontier..(Frontier also sold United 25 737-291As to supplement their own 737-222UN-advanced machines)because they were Operating the MD-80s up until they were acquired by Continental along with PeoplExpress, PBA and Britt in 1987....Then the former Frontier MD-80s went into the CO fleet...Which CO had also ordered their own MD-80s....

Would love to see actual pictures of UAL MD-80s.....Artist airbrushed impressions do not count.....

Access-Air
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ual777
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:49 am

Quoting Super98 (Reply 19):


Compared to what? What airplanes designed back in 1978 didn't look like a "high school science project?"

I suppose you have never seen a Saudi MD-90 or the 717, or anything else with updated displays and avionics contemporaneous to your 777?

The airplane was regularly updated from the begining, even going back to when the -81s were basically DC-9-40s, to
the updates on the 87/88 with the Smiths indicating systems and new A/P glareshield control panel. Did you not like
the DFGCs? They oughta get some credit for being the first...

I wasn't referring to the 777. The flight deck is cramped and as one ex AA md-80 pilot put it to me, "when they came out with a new technology they just stuck it wherever it fit."
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
charlienorth
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 16):
In case if anyone is interested, the original Frontier had 20 MD-80s in its fleet...5 -81s & 15 -82s. When United took over most of the routes & fleet from Frontier, the 737s were retained & the majority of the MD-80s went to Continental. But one MD-82 was held back by United, re-registered as N80UA, and probably repainted as well. This bird was on the UA's roster for 6 months only, in 1990. Perhaps UA was evaluating the aircraft for a possible order with Douglas then. Remember that was the time when AA, DL & TWA were building up their brand new Mad Dog fleets.
Regards.

That's pretty much what I was getting at but wasn't exactly sure of the details,UAL may have tried an evaluation,but would not have put one aircraft of a single type into it's operating certificate.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
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ADent
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 15):
Another reason UA would probably have been better off with the DC-9 is because the DC-9 has always been flown with a two person crew, but UA was required to fly their 737s with a three person crew until the early 1980s. This significantly increased the 737's operating costs.

AFAIK all the 737s UA were flown by a crew of two. All the 727s were flown by three.

I did find this

Quote:
The pilots' union contract at the time [12/1972] compelled United Airlines to have three licensed pilots onboard, even though Boeing had designed the 737 to be flown by a crew of two, instead of three.

So the third pilot sat in the jump seat or did they get a seat in the cabin and hit on the Stewardesses?
 
ual777
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:51 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 26):

So the third pilot sat in the jump seat or did they get a seat in the cabin and hit on the Stewardesses?

Jumpseat.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
travatl
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:04 am

No MD80s ever made it into UA colors, I'm afraid. Would've liked to have seen that.....
 
flightopsguy
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:18 am

NO DC-9's or MD-80's were dispatched by United. That is the simple fact. There is always the possibility of an airbrushed PR shot, as I said before, with the 1968 onboard ad for the "DC-9 Mainliner". Did not UA's 732's include an FE from 1968-1972?

Trivia question: What fleet of one aircraft WAS dispatched by UA?

Hints: There was only one aircraft in the fleet. The aircraft was a jet aircraft. The aircraft was painted in full UA colors of the time.
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ual777
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:22 am

Quoting Flightopsguy (Reply 29):

Trivia question: What fleet of one aircraft WAS dispatched by UA?

Ill go with the L-1011.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
flightopsguy
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:27 am

Naw. UA operated several ex-PA L-1011's.
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AA737-823
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:31 am

Quoting Flightopsguy (Reply 29):
NO DC-9's or MD-80's were dispatched by United

You're so certain as to state this several times, but if you'll read above in reply 16:

Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 16):
But one MD-82 was held back by United, re-registered as N80UA, and probably repainted as well.

That's not definite, but your word is no more reliable than his.

And I am pretty sure I've seen a pic of a UA rainbow DC-Niner of some series.


Be careful when you make absolute statements; most people on a.net are quite certain that United never had any L-1011s, despite there being pics to that effect in the database.
 
flightopsguy
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:45 am

Sorry. I personally dispatched L-1011's for UA. No DC-9 or MD-80 was ever dispatched by UA. It is certainly possible that a plane was repainted, but it was never placed in revenue or non-revenue service by UA.
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flightopsguy
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:49 am

Quoting Flightopsguy (Reply 33):



Quoting Flightopsguy (Reply 33):
Sorry. I personally dispatched L-1011's for UA. No DC-9 or MD-80 was ever dispatched by UA. It is certainly possible that a plane was repainted, but it was never placed in revenue or non-revenue service by UA.

Oh, and just to add some info: I dispatched DC9-10 through MD-87 for ML. ML had a large fleet of DC-9-10 through -30's, plus MD-87 and MD82/83.
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flightopsguy
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:53 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 32):
You're so certain as to state this several times, but if you'll read above in reply 16:

Oh, and Randy, I've been dispatching Part 121 in Chicago longer than you have been alive (according to your profile).
My first airline job was loading bags into Dick Henson's B-99's in 1966.
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ShannoninAMA
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:03 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 32):
And I am pretty sure I've seen a pic of a UA rainbow DC-Niner of some series.

Indeed...i could have sworn ive seen one... scratchchin 



Then again, knowing how smart i am, it was probably just a CR7 or something..  silly 
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flightopsguy
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:31 am

Quoting ShannoninAMA (Reply 36):
Then again, knowing how smart i am, it was probably just a CR7 or something..

The 70's rainbow scheme was long gone before the CR700 flew.
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travatl
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:44 am

Flightopsguy speaks the truth... there were never MD80s in UA colors. Are you sure you guys aren't getting this beauties confused? They have that "rainbow-esque" quality to them...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.



View Large View Medium
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Photo © Ellis M. Chernoff



Oh, and I give, what was the fleet of ONE operated by UA?
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:05 pm

Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 16):
But one MD-82 was held back by United, re-registered as N80UA, and probably repainted as well. This bird was on the UA's roster for 6 months only, in 1990. Perhaps UA was evaluating the aircraft for a possible order with Douglas then.

Can anyone confirm this? If true, it would have been a bad aircraft to evaluate for the type as it was inferior to the improved MD-80's that were available. By then, Mad Dogs had the glass cockpit, tail mod, better engines, and range. That would be like testing an original A320 for considering a new order.

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 11):
The Mad Dog's cockpit looks like a high school science-fair project.

Have you seen the MD-88 flightdeck?

Quoting Travatl (Reply 38):
Oh, and I give, what was the fleet of ONE operated by UA?

The only one that comes close is the DC-10-30CF, which I believe two were operated.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
MakeMinesLAX
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:47 pm

Quoting Flightopsguy (Reply 29):
Trivia question: What fleet of one aircraft WAS dispatched by UA?

Hints: There was only one aircraft in the fleet. The aircraft was a jet aircraft. The aircraft was painted in full UA colors of the time.

If we were discussing Eastern, I'd say a Jetstar. My money's on a similar VIP aircraft, since I can't recall (a) any special service which would have required a dedicated aircraft, nor (b) any oddball which was acquired directly or second-hand (a la those which came from Frontier and Pan Am).
 
corey07850
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:17 pm

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 11):
Thank God for that! The Mad Dog's cockpit looks like a high school science-fair project.

That's what a real cockpit looks like
 
flightopsguy
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:53 pm

Quoting MakeMinesLAX (Reply 40):
If we were discussing Eastern, I'd say a Jetstar. My money's on a similar VIP aircraft, since I can't recall (a) any special service which would have required a dedicated aircraft, nor (b) any oddball which was acquired directly or second-hand (a la those which came from Frontier and Pan Am).

You are correct, Sir. It was a Learjet that was used as a VIP aircraft. I can't find a photo on the net, but it was featured in one of the original airline picture books many years ago. The aircraft was flown by UA pilots and dispatched by UA dispatchers. It was painted in the 1960's "Mainliner" scheme.
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isitsafenow
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:40 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 26):
The pilots' union contract at the time [12/1972] compelled United Airlines to have three licensed pilots onboard, even though Boeing had designed the 737 to be flown by a crew of two, instead of three.

The date is right but again its wrong. The 200came into service in 1968 with UA and at that time the plane had
three in the cockpit. I knew a guy who started with UA in 69 as 2nd officer in the 737. In 1973, the crew went to two in
the cockpit.
As for the lead post, you all forgot something. In the late 70's and thru most of the 80's Boeing owned 7 1/2 of United in stock. That why UA bought the 737-300 instead of the MD 80 in the early 80's..As Boeing sold off their stock, UA started looking at the Airbuses....
Hey MilesRich...you should remember that....
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ual777
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:27 pm

Quoting Corey07850 (Reply 41):

That's what a real cockpit looks like

I take it you don't fly airplanes. I do not know 1 pilot who who likes the MD-80 over a 737.

[Edited 2007-08-03 16:28:17]
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
access-air
Posts: 1576
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 5:30 pm

RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:38 pm

Quoting Flightopsguy (Reply 42):
You are correct, Sir. It was a Learjet that was used as a VIP aircraft.

Oh yeah, I remember seeing a picture of that United Lear.....someplace..If I find it again I will post a link.....

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
hnl-jack
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 10:34 pm

RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:24 am

The MD-80's acquired from Frontier were leased back to Frontier and never painted in the Saul Bass United colors. Several artist impressions of a United MD-80 have appeared over the years and more than likely mistaken for an actual aircraft.
 
timz
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:23 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 32):
most people on a.net are quite certain that United never had any L-1011s

Okay, guys, let's see a show of hands-- who thinks UA never had any TriStars?
 
access-air
Posts: 1576
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 5:30 pm

RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:33 am

Quoting Timz (Reply 47):
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 32):
most people on a.net are quite certain that United never had any L-1011s

Okay, guys, let's see a show of hands-- who thinks UA never had any TriStars?

Well Im NOT rasing my hand....I know UNITED had L1011-500s that they acquired along with Pacific routes from Pan Am....Also throw in a fleet of 747SPs!!!!! UNITED was one of the few airlines if not the only airline that that flew the DC10 L1011 and 747 simultaneously.....

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
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ADent
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RE: How Come UA Never Took The DC9/MD80

Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:47 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 43):
The date is right but again its wrong. The 200came into service in 1968 with UA and at that time the plane had three in the cockpit. I knew a guy who started with UA in 69 as 2nd officer in the 737. In 1973, the crew went to two in the cockpit.

The date is from the UA553 Midway crash on 08DEC1972 that killed three pilots and 42 others.

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